IEW *&* BraveWriter? (was)Tell Me About BraveWriter

[jmarchman]

I've appreciated all the thumbs up and thumbs down for BraveWriter.  Has anyone used BraveWriter alongside IEW?  Are there elements of BraveWriter that I could pull out easily and enhance IEW (next year when we'll be on SWI-CC-A).  Since they are so different, since it sounds like BraveWriter develops "voice", I was wondering if that is easy to pull out and use alongside IEW, or if that would be crazy, and I should maybe do IEW one year, BraveWriter one year, back to IEW, etc?

 

TIA!

Jennifer

 

 

Original post:

 

Hi all,

 

My 10yo ds is currently doing IEW's SWI-A.  I am definitely happy with it, and I plan to continue with the program.  My son has dysgraphia, and it has been instrumental in getting him to write *anything* (we used to be at a tear-filled hour for three words).  We are also using MCT's Grammar Town and IEW's Fit-It!  Both of which are think are good fits for him.

 

I've been looking into adding BraveWriter for next year.  It seems to be a different approach to writing.  Is it truly?  What are Brave Writer's strengths?  How much of it is redundant to MCT Grammar Town & IEW's Fix-It?

 

If you have used it *and* IEW (and MCT), did you use them simultaneously, or did you spend several months on one and then the other?

 

TIA!

Jennifer

[Walking-Iris]

I paid one million dollars for the online Kids Write basic and was so annoyed by it that I switched my kid to mini reports where I was equally annoyed.  I thought the whole thing was a a ghastly waste of a whole lot of money.  I did it bc my friend swears by it and loves it and her ds turned a corner when she enrolled him in Kids Write Intermediate.  My kid is a similar person to hers so I thought maybe it would work.  No.  

 

Kids write basic is a course for YOU the mom.  

 

The mini reports class was not at all what I hoped for.  The format is unpleasant and the virtual classroom is not at all appealing nor does it work well.  Its a forum.  Not a classroom.  For a kid who hates to write like mine it was a completely ridiculous way to communicate- online in writing???

 

 

I think the whole thing is a ridiculous waste of money and would never recommend it to a struggling writer.  It reinforced my preconceived notions that its all completely over priced and outrageous for what you actually get.  Not too dang much.

 

 

Wow, way to hate on something. Now it's time for someone who loves Bravewriter to respond.

 

First of all this poster's review is of the online courses, which I have no experience with and personally find unnecessary.  (Calandalsmom---you are aware that BW is a hell of lot more than the online courses, correct? And that the online courses are not required, not by a long shot, to do Bravewriter, correct?))

 

Now for the OP who's interested in BW. 

 

I love it. I use The Writer's Jungle, and Arrow guides. I also use the Jot It Down and Partnership Writing extras. Not necessary to have those, but I glean a lot from them.

 

TWJ is what you would want at first. That is where the methods of the Bravewriter Lifestyle will be spelled out. Copywork/dictation/narration are the main things your week would center on. Weekly freewrites is where you will be writing every week....do not skip weekly freewrites. Then BW suggests a monthly project. There are sample routines and schedules and so on. 

 

Even though I feel TWJ is important you can choose to add other BW elements without it if you are happy with your current writing program. It wouldn't upset the MCT because BW isn't a grammar program. You add grammar and spelling separately if you choose to. 

 

There is a lot of support on her website, the Facebook posts, the yahoo group (which is a calendar, not a discussion), her free daily writing tips newsletter. There's even a free ebook about Freewriting somewhere.

 

You could do monthly Arrow guides by themselves. You could do Partnership Writing by itself.

 

The Writer's Jungle is key in understanding how it works, but you can mix and match any elements.

 

I use it along with WWE. I won't be doing WWE next year...so I may be full BW, or BW plus WWS...

 

But I find that it complements other writing programs well. 

 

And you can have a full and effective Bravewriter writing program without taking one single online course. 

 

Also in no way do I find Bravewriter to be just for the reluctant writer. I would recommend it for the struggling writer. And regards all of the other things BW offers as well as the online courses, I say it's worth it. 

 

I don't spend several months on BW and then switch to WWE, I do them simultaneously. Bravewriter's strengths are actually getting children writing in different formats what they are interested in writing. Learning the full writing process. Finding their writing voice and having fun writing as a lifestyle rather than a list of assignments that need completing. One full writing activity a month means 10 written papers. Essays, research, creative...you name it. The work with the weekly freewrite furthers their comfort with the written word and dictation helps with spelling and grammar and the Arrows also have literary elements work. 

 

The main difference in BW is the idea that there are developmental phases to writing. And the lack of pre digested assignments. If you make use of all that BW has available to purchase and the extensive free support on the web, you would have a full writing program. Again the online classes are not necessary. 

[Farrar]

Another BW lover.  I have no experience with the classes.  If you signed up expecting that writing would be taken off your plate though, I suspect you would be disappointed.

 

I think it is a fundamentally different approach from most of the other things out there.  There are some pieces that are like classical writing - copywork, narration, dictation.  There are some pieces that are like the public school approach - freewriting and writing projects.  There are some things that are very CM influenced - the narration, nature study, etc. are all straight up modernized CM, IMO.  But I think the way BW brings these things together is different from most programs.  

 

And the underlying philosophy is different.  WWE and IEW both teach formal writing like a foreign language that has to be learned bit by bit.  BW teaches writing as an extension of your own voice and focuses on developing that voice.  It's much more wholistic and is much more flexible and that's what makes it work for struggling and reluctant writers.

 

The thing that many people find difficult about BW is that because it's so flexible, it's not all laid out and it really requires that you be present and thoughtful about your child's writing process and nurture each child as an individual, not just plug them into a curriculum.  I think it can seem overwhelming at first, but making a routine - the "BW lifestyle" - is really at the heart of BW and once you get that going, then it becomes much easier.

 

ETA: One more thought, which is that BW requires a lot of trust in the writing process and the stages of writing.  If you're looking for something that will have a child writing essays by such and such an age, that's not BW.  It's really about building a child up and creating a lifelong writer.  With that in mind, some things come later.

[mo2]

Walking-Iris, great post.   Can you tell me what a typical week looks like for you, combining WWE and BW? 

[ByGrace3]

Another BW lover here.:) we are new but it is so flexible, ifeel like it has given me the tools to design a writing program tailored to OUR needs.

 

I have the Writers Jungle, we also use The Arrow Guides, and are using pieces of Jot it Down and Partnership Writing. I think PW might have helped me understand BW better than TWJ ;)

 

I started out thinking we would combine WWE and BW, but the more i got into BW I realized I didn't really need to. BW does an excellent job of teaching HOW to do dictation, which my dd and I needed the handholding. So the only thing left I wanted from WWE was the narrations-- which really is a part of BW as well -- I just tend to focus more on the narration and dictation than perhaps BW suggests-- but all in all it has what I am looking for.

 

We have never done the BW online classes either, but from what I understand they are not "here you go kids do writing online", they are intended to teach the BW lifestyle to parents so they can continue after the class.

[nansk]

nm

Edited August 15, 2013 by nansk
Let's not get personal...

[Farrar]

Yes I absolutely disliked it, it was a giant waste of time and money.  We already have a lifestyle and I don't need a new one.  LOL  I need help with getting my kid to write.  LOL

 

She certainly has found a way to make people pay a heck of a lot for a nebulous concept.

 

BW is probably not for everyone and I have no doubt there are families that can't make it work, but the routines she's talking about - the "lifestyle" - do teach kids to write.  And it's also what she's selling, so I feel like that's pretty clear from the descriptions.  We haven't found it nebulous at all.  There's a lot of concrete suggestions in there.

 

But that said, this is one of the reasons that I often think people shouldn't start by diving into BW full on.  Now that Jot It Down and Partnership Writing are out, I think it makes much more sense to try one of those, which are gentle introductions and then, if you like it, consider getting TWJ or taking a class and/or getting one of the language arts supplements.

[Incognito]

I only got TWJ this summer, but I never felt like Julie Bogart was trying to make people buy something they didn't need.  She's pretty straightforward about what Bravewriter is - it's lifestyle stuff that she is sharing because other people in her life wanted her to.  I see it as having a mentor who is a writer tell me what they think is important. 

 

All the different packages - I think those are to make it less of a lifestyle and more of a curriculum.  I think they are handholding for box-checkers (sometimes I am one, so I'm not dissing). 

 

Bravewriter so far has had some insights for me and a lot of pats on my back that we have been approaching things in a positive way. 

 

You can always subscribe to her yahoo listserve for free.  I did that a while ago.  It's a lot of emails (feels spammy), but it really is just short reminders of making writing and the skills that go with it a part of your everyday life.

 

 

[HSmomof2]

We are new to BW this year, too. Not taking the online classes, but I just finished reading The Writer's Jungle. I also have a very reluctant 10-year-old writer that struggles with dysgraphia. I like the flexibility that comes with BW, and how you can implement it how it best fits for your family, and I think it could compliment any grammar program and many writing programs. I didn't really understand it, until I purchased and read TWJ. It's given me more confidence in teaching writing. We are planning to implement copywork/dictation/narration (which we've always done with WWE), poetry, Partnership Writing and the Arrow this year. I purchased all of my BW materials at the Homeschool Buyer's Co-op for much less than on the BW website. I also liked that I could buy the back issues of the Arrow, so I just chose the titles we were planning to read next year anyway.

[umsami]

I bought The Writer's Jungle and some back issues of "The Arrow" via HSBC.  So far, I really like the approach.  We're working on narration right now ("jot it down"), as well as doing "The Arrow" for "Trumpet of the Swans."

 

One thing that I actually agree with is that she recommends hitting grammar only once during elementary, middle, and high school.  That's how I was taught... I remember 7th grade being major grammar year.  We didn't have a major grammar program every year--it was just touched upon.  

 

 

 

[TGHEALTHYMOM]

I am being liberated by Julie Bogart. New to me at a very low cost through the Co-op I am loving the emails, FB posts, and reading BW. I purchased some Arrow and Boomerang back issues too. Julie suggests Winston Grammar as being taught 3 times.  

 

I appreciate the Free testing our family is able to participate in after I read about Calvert

in an email from Julie.  We will be compensated after the midterm and final are completed. I am very grateful.

 

Beyond this, I am enjoying and saving emails. I hope to be a better mom and get much more writing done this year!

[Elfknitter.#]

But that said, this is one of the reasons that I often think people shouldn't start by diving into BW full on. Now that Jot It Down and Partnership Writing are out, I think it makes much more sense to try one of those, which are gentle introductions and then, if you like it, consider getting TWJ or taking a class and/or getting one of the language arts supplements.

I read TWJ and just got so bogged down in it that I just left it. Looking at PW, I'm starting to understand the "lifestyle" so many discuss and feel a bit more confident about giving it a try this fall with a few Arrow guides. I wish she had wrote Jot it Down/PW sooner.

[Walking-Iris]

 

 

Walking-Iris, great post.   Can you tell me what a typical week looks like for you, combining WWE and BW?

 

 

Another BW lover here. :) we are new but it is so flexible, ifeel like it has given me the tools to design a writing program tailored to OUR needs.

 

I have the Writers Jungle, we also use The Arrow Guides, and are using pieces of Jot it Down and Partnership Writing. I think PW might have helped me understand BW better than TWJ ;)

 

I started out thinking we would combine WWE and BW, but the more i got into BW I realized I didn't really need to. BW does an excellent job of teaching HOW to do dictation, which my dd and I needed the handholding. So the only thing left I wanted from WWE was the narrations-- which really is a part of BW as well -- I just tend to focus more on the narration and dictation than perhaps BW suggests-- but all in all it has what I am looking for.

 

We have never done the BW online classes either, but from what I understand they are not "here you go kids do writing online", they are intended to teach the BW lifestyle to parents so they can continue after the class.

 

 

I feel like I don't really need WWE either. And I agree with Farrar's post that I'm not really interested in the writing method of WWE. I like copywork/dictation/narration but I wanted my children actually writing something. 

 

I still use WWE because my oldest ds is on the spectrum and the guided questioning in WWE for the reading passages have been amazingly helpful for him. He loves WWE because he knows it is helping him get his thoughts into order and tell a story/summary back clearly. He struggled with that before WWE. So WWE in my home doesn't really serve a "writing program" purpose necessarily. 

 

We do however do the WWE dictations. A typical week-- two days of WWE. I condense one week into 2. I do not have him use his own narration as dictation, because we have extra dictation form the Arrow. We use the Arrow as copywork, and then throughout the week/s we break it into doable dictation work. 

 

I'm actually cutting back on Arrows this year because I have a selection of Newbery books that we are working with for a time. I only have 5 arrows I want to do this year. 

 

This year I'm focusing more on writing/editing. The Friday Freewrite, but also we are following the PW routine for projects. And focusing on the PW projects and poetry memorization.

 

I have a 1st grader who is doing poetry from FLL and WWE1 (also doubled up) and working with some activities in Jot It Down.

 

The OP wants to specifically know about combining BW with IEW. I'm not familiar with IEW, but again I feel like it could be done. 

 

ETA: also BW has plenty of ideas about choosing your own copywork, but I prefer the way WWE has already selected the passages.

Edited August 15, 2013 by Moderator

[jmarchman]

 

 

Can someone please tell me about the specific strengths of Brave Writer vs. IEW?  Is it possible to combine them?  Or worth the effort?

 

TIA!

Edited August 15, 2013 by Moderator

[Walking-Iris]

Can someone please tell me about the specific strengths of Brave Writer vs. IEW?  Is it possible to combine them?  Or worth the effort?

 

TIA!

 

I feel like you can combine them. I'm not familiar with IEW, but BW works well by itself or with other programs. Because BW works as a lifestyle you could combine easily. Say you choose to do Friday Freewrites and your IEW has a certain topic to write about. Give that topic as a freewrit einstead. YOu could even do like I did last year and plan on doing again. Do 6-8 freewrites and then pick two to polish and complete. Repeat. That would be 4 essays, creative writings etc.

 

There's no reason you would have to do the writing projects laid out in something like PW. TWJ gives plenty of advice in choosing your own monthly writing projects (there are some ideas), so you can use the monthly writing process applied to an IEW activity.

 

Also if IEW has copywork/dictation (again I'm not familiar) then you could work on them using the "French Dictation" method in the Arrows.

 

The Poetry teatime, nature study, art, freewrites, etc would work well with anything or on their own. 

 

The best thing IMHO about Bravewriter is the editing/revising advice.

 

Too often it can be easy to make a kid write and expect everything to be perfect. Just doing Freewrites without any need to critique everything lifts a big load off of the child. I feel BW can enhance anything. 

 

You have to be clear what you want though. If you want assignments laid out and formatted writing to be done by certain times, BW wouldn't work. If you're comfortable coming up with things on your own and making a program work for you rather than working in lock step with the program BW could work.

Edited August 15, 2013 by Moderator

[Farrar]

If I was going to combine two like that, I would make a BW style routine that had 1-2 days that were specifically for IEW and do a sort of light version of IEW. I know that would work for BW. But having only seen IEW, not used it, I'm not sure how well that would work. Hopefully some IEW folks will chime in.

[mo2]

I still use WWE because my oldest ds is on the spectrum and the guided questioning in WWE for the reading passages have been amazingly helpful for him. He loves WWE because he knows it is helping him get his thoughts into order and tell a story/summary back clearly. He struggled with that before WWE. So WWE in my home doesn't really serve a "writing program" purpose necessarily. 

 

We do however do the WWE dictations. A typical week-- two days of WWE. I condense one week into 2. I do not have him use his own narration as dictation, because we have extra dictation form the Arrow. We use the Arrow as copywork, and then throughout the week/s we break it into doable dictation work. 

 

I'm actually cutting back on Arrows this year because I have a selection of Newbery books that we are working with for a time. I only have 5 arrows I want to do this year. 

 

This year I'm focusing more on writing/editing. The Friday Freewrite, but also we are following the PW routine for projects. And focusing on the PW projects and poetry memorization.

 

I have a 1st grader who is doing poetry from FLL and WWE1 (also doubled up) and working with some activities in Jot It Down.

 

The OP wants to specifically know about combining BW with IEW. I'm not familiar with IEW, but again I feel like it could be done. 

 

ETA: also BW has plenty of ideas about choosing your own copywork, but I prefer the way WWE has already selected the passages. 

Thank you for elaborating on this.  The main reason I am interested in WWE is because of the narrations.  My daughter seems to need the specific questions that guide her into the narration.

[mommymilkies]

I have used IEW and now use MCT and BW. I am also throwing the Lively Art of Writing in for my oldest. IEW is good, but it can be a little intense for kids. I alternated them both last year, especially when the kids needed an IEW break. It would also depend on which IEW program you are using. MCT and BW go very well together, IMHO.

 

Also, following Julie's narration and dictation advice would be more than good enough that you don't need WWE. Also, depending on learning style, Julie's directions for narration and dictation just work better for us.

[Walking-Iris]

I have used IEW and now use MCT and BW. I am also throwing the Lively Art of Writing in for my oldest. IEW is good, but it can be a little intense for kids. I alternated them both last year, especially when the kids needed an IEW break. It would also depend on which IEW program you are using. MCT and BW go very well together, IMHO.

 

Also, following Julie's narration and dictation advice would be more than good enough that you don't need WWE. Also, depending on learning style, Julie's directions for narration and dictation just work better for us.

 

 

For us, the two work together. I wanted to chuck WWE until I started BW. The directions for dictation make more sense to me in BW.  I'm not great at asking questions for narration. The way SWB phrases her questioning really seems to help my ds better than anything I could come up with.

 

But for the OP, the main thing is that yes, BW works well with nearly any other writing program.

[happyhome]

For us, the two work together. I wanted to chuck WWE until I started BW. The directions for dictation make more sense to me in BW. I'm not great at asking questions for narration. The way SWB phrases her questioning really seems to help my ds better than anything I could come up with.

 

But for the OP, the main thing is that yes, BW works well with nearly any other writing program.

What age can you begin BW? Can you start as early as 3rd grade? I think the free writes would be a little tough for him. What parts could be started younger?

[Farrar]

What age can you begin BW? Can you start as early as 3rd grade? I think the free writes would be a little tough for him. What parts could be started younger?

 

She doesn't recommend starting the regular freewrites until a child is in the "partnership writing" stage.  But the freewrites can be just 5 minutes long to start.  They can be lists, not long stories or even complete sentences.  It's really about getting your inner words out.

 

However, many of the other pieces can be started sooner - oral narration, copywork, poetry teas, movie days, playing language arts games, writing projects, etc. are all integral to Brave Writer and all things that can be appropriate in different ways starting in Kindy.  The products she makes for this stage are Jot It Down, which summarizes the aspects of TWJ that apply to the early years and gives a set of writing projects, and The Wand, which has copywork and some phonics and some writing mechanics all in a very gentle way (though be careful about the sample on the website - it's for the very first lesson and the program does significantly increase in difficulty - I think the sample is misleading).

[NittanyJen]

 

Can someone please tell me about the specific strengths of Brave Writer vs. IEW?  Is it possible to combine them?  Or worth the effort?

 

TIA!

 

I combine them.  For my younger, we simply alternate weeks between Arrow/Boomerang work and IEW-SWIA.

 

Why?  I like the balance between the more organic copying excellent authors, then taking a closer look at why what they did works (my just turned 10YO is easily talking about opening hooks and dichotomies and such now, and I see him trying them out in his writing already!  And he is a very reluctant writer, as a kiddo with dysgraphia) and the terrifically structured toolbox approach of IEW.  With IEW, you might practice writing by removing all passive voice from a piece.  Then you might focus on using quite a few adverbs.  Or you might focus on some other device-- yes, overdoing that one element in one essay is very artificial, but the idea is not to always write that artifically; it is to practice that one tool so that when you do need it while editing, you have it readily available in your writer's toolbox.  You know you can rearrange a sentence to start with the dependent clause, because you practiced it over and over.  You have a great store of adverbs for the right moment when you really need one. You know how to rewrite a sentence effectively when the passive voice is just not right in that spot.  In Bravewriter, in the issues of Boomerang and the Arrow, after each section of copywork, the little magazinelets show you how to discuss interesting points with your child about the selection-- interesting punctuation (the em-dash, the semicolon, commas between types of clauses) contractions, good spelling words, interesting vocabulary, visual imagery, and elements of the writer's craft such as rhyme, opening hooks, foreshadowing, what is said precisely by NOT saying it, made-up words that we understand anyway, and so forth.  It never fails to fascinate, and even the items that have been pure review for my kids have been good to touch upon.  We end the week with either dictation of the same passage, or "French dictation" in which they only have to fill in sections of the passage-- but by then they know the passage pretty well after studying it all week and having already copied it down and learning all about it.  There is usually an assignment in the fourth week that is pretty interesting that relates to the overall theme of the four-week packet, and helps them build skills and tools for use as writers, or can help with Friday Freewrites.

 

By blending the two approaches-- the technical detail of IEW and the writer's craft from Bravewriter-- over time you can really build a confident writer, IMHO.

 

Both programs, when you really read the parent materials, emphasize carefully to the parent to grade papers in an age appropriate manner-- don't feel the need to edit/correct every possible little niggling thing.  No writer likes to see a page full of red corrections; the result will be a kid who hates writing, hates editing, and figures they can't write.  Decide ahead of time what you wish to emphasize, and concentrate on that.  Let them fix just those most important points, then let them edit the paper themselves after it has been put away for a while.  Don't edit every piece of writing.  If you were a painter, would you enjoy painting if after every painting, people came up to you with red paint and x'd out half of your painting?  Let some pieces of writing just be art pieces, and up to the student to choose to edit.

 

So despite the apparently different approaches, the programs do share some similar philosophy that is quite compatible.  I feel they complement each other quite nicely.

 

My older child is actually in one of the online classes, and I think it is brilliant.  He is responding to posted questions online about Hunger Games, probably his favorite book.  However, his answers aren't the end; the instructor very gently responds and asks him to extend his answers-- "So how does that work for you?  Can you give me an example from the book to show me this?  Did the character change at some point?  When?" etc.  So his initially simple answers are being fleshed out bit by bit as he interacts with the instructor (and maybe over time the other students, and I am encouraging him to read the responses of the other students as well); he is learning how to give more complete answers without feeling as if he is being criticized, and when the students comment to one another, he is discussing his favorite book with interesting questions with other kids roughly his own age, give or take a few years.  I will be interested to see whether, if we continue with other books in this teaching series, if his answers will become more complex across the year after enough of this nudging and prompting.  At home, he alternates weeks of IEW (currently Medieval) and the same Bravewriter Arrow/Boomerang as younger brother.

 

Both boys did WWE 1-3 and older brother did part of WWS.

 

We are dropping grammar this year (other than practice books from MCT) to spend more time focusing on writing.

[Walking-Iris]

What age can you begin BW? Can you start as early as 3rd grade? I think the free writes would be a little tough for him. What parts could be started younger?

 

 

Kindergarten I guess. 

 

Farrar already gave a great answer. Jot It Down is aimed towards the 5-8 year old. I can't imagine freewritng or Arrow guides being too tough for a 3rd grader. 

 

BW suggests setting a timer for 5 minutes at first. Every freewrite is in not going to be a polished piece of work. 

 

Teatime, nature study, art/music appreciation, oral memory work, narration, simple copywork and so on. BW is for all ages. Including the parent. She recommends you writing as well. I do freewrite occasionally with my child. And trying to do an arrow dictation gives me a great idea how difficult it can really be. TWJ has little assignments and reading lists for the parent as well.