How important would social skills class be for a 16yo?

[bluedarling]

We finally got a diagnosis for my 16yo yesterday....Aspergers (or ASD Type 1, as its now called).  The psych said if he was in school she'd recommend social skills classes.  I currently have him enrolled part-time in an online ps-at-home program (2 online classes) through another school district in our state (not our local district.)  I may be unable to get social skills classes with this enrollment (I'm still investigating that).  I'm wondering how important social skills classes through the school would be?  I'm guessing it depends on the school district...and I have no idea what our district is like for this kind of thing....no idea even who to ask.  In general, though, have others found social skills training valuable for their teen?   Would it be worth re-considering placement?

 

Also, anything else I should consider in planning for this school-year in light of this diagnosis?  Obviously, he'll need a 504 plan for the part-time school with extended time, but beyond that I'm unsure what to ask for, or expect.

[Lecka]

My cousin got diagnosed in his early 20s. I think social skills class did help him. Medication for anxiety helped him a lot, bc he was also anxious.

 

Now an issue is life skills. He is not independent with some life skills. My aunt does things for him, and he resents it a little, but he can't just do it. They are looking into a "life skills coach."

 

The class will depend on the instructor and stuff, but I think it is worth checking on to see if it seems like a good fit for him.

 

Bc my cousin is older, I can say, I am sure he would have been diagnosed as a young child if he was growing up now. My aunt and uncle looked for help for him much earlier and were told he would catch up with maturity.

 

My cousin is an awesome person and his girlfriend also has Aspergers. So to me -- maybe he can meet some people who will be good friends to him, at a social class. Maybe, maybe not.

 

Edit: re-reading I see he might have to enroll in school for their class. I have no idea then -- it might be good, but you might be able to find informal opportunities for him that would be good for him, also.

[itsheresomewhere]

You would want an IEP not a 504 to get social skills training and extended time.  Social skills classes depend on the instructor and the attitude of the students.  DS has had a few crappy ones and a few great ones.  The best one we paid out of pocket for.  

[bluedarling]

Sorry it took so long to reply....we lost internet most of the day yesterday....we lose power tomorrow....think it was due to construction/moving lines down our road.

 

Lecka, my son is also anxious.  What kind of things can your cousin not do...are they things I can "coach" my son  while he's still at home?

 

He would not have to enroll in school...at least I don't think so.  It's just his part-time school enrollment might have to be dropped (not sure) in order to qualify as a local school student.  The part-time enrollment was intended to ease him into college classes by having an instructor he would interface with and be responsible for asking for help from (the kid never asks for help--he just doesn't do it if he doesn't know how--plus I'm not comfortable teaching French or CAD.)  My son's youth group has been great with him...teaching him to make eye contact (though he apparently still has issues with this according to psych observations), and hugging him (he doesn't like it, but he tolerates it....and I think its a good thing they push that boundary a little.)  But...he's been asking for help with social skills (mainly to help him make friends).  As I have his schedule set right now, there is no time for social skills class!  I'm already 'overloading' him.  So I was just wondering if I should pursue social skills class or not.  Since its something he has asked for....I suppose its worth considering!

 

ItsHereSomewhere--the psych report said 504 plan (that's what I'm going off of).  Social skills training was not on the report, because she thought it didn't apply for a homeschooler (when I told her I believed I could access it, she said she'd change it...but I'm doubtful it got changed--I probably should check.)  I'm not interested in paying out of pocket....so its the high school or nothing...and I guess we won't know if its worth it, unless we try?  Sounds like a bit of crap shoot....kind of wondering if thats the best use of time, then.  He can't afford to waste any time!  Everything takes him longer, as it is.  Thanks for the feedback!

[itsheresomewhere]

You might think about an one that is out of pocket if there is a group like this near you.   The guy who runs the one DS has attended also has one for highschool age.  These kids go to the movies, out to dinner, different events that make them use the skills correctly.  These kids really seem to learn and know that each one of them is different.  There are several coaches with the group so it is not just one person.  

 

 

[Lecka]

First, the anxiety medicine has helped my cousin a lot. He is just more easy-going.

 

My cousin's strength is that he is a nice person, and he is funny.

 

He can drive but he has a hard time making decisions that need to be made very quickly in actual driving. So this means he needs to be able to walk or use public transportation, or arrange a ride for himself. He is good at arranging rides to church and church things, and good at walking. He has trouble with a bus, and also with arranging to be picked up by a bus, which is available but he won't use.

 

Then money management. He is fine to walk to a store and buy something. But he has a poor grasp of the theory of: you have a certain amount of money, and have to decide how you will prioritize spending it. He just doesn't get it. It seems he can do addition and subtraction but doesn't know how to apply that to money.

 

He is better about this now, but used to call people at inappropriate times of day (like 10:00 pm for my parents).

 

He has learned how to cook several 5-ingredient meals, and can take care of that. If left to his own devices he would heat things in the microwave only. But by now I think he is used to making several meals. This is a hard thing to learn for each meal, and then how to pick up the mess. He does not yet shop for ingredients by himself. I think my aunt goes with him to buy the ingredients, and also makes him a schedule of which night to eat which meal.

 

Those seem to be pretty big deals. He used to have a hard time with hygiene and picking out clothes, but that is fine now.

[bluedarling]

Wow, thanks Lecka, he sounds a LOT like my child!   He is learning to drive (permit), but he HATES it...and he can't make a decision for the life of him.    I think teaching him to use a bus could be an excellent thing for me to work with him on!  The bus isn't exactly convenient, here, though...ugh (i don't want to have to walk there to train him!)   I think my son is OK with money management, but I really don't know because he won't go into a store to buy something (refuses).  My son cooks (and is actually pretty good at it...following a recipe), but I do think he will struggle with the planning/purchasing....left to his own devices he might live on potato chips!  These are great ideas for me to work on toward independence!!!   How do you work on phone skills if a child refuses to make a phone call, though!?  I am planning to get him a checking account, though...let him pay for his orchestra lessons and english class. 

 

I asked him how badly he wanted a social skills class, and he says he really doesn't...he'd rather just read books on the subject.  Typical...prefers to read about it, than do it!

 

Anyway, thanks for the ideas!

 

[Lecka]

My aunt and uncle made a big, big deal about my cousin learning to drive. It represented a lot to them.

 

He would be fine to drive if he was the only person on the road. He can drive in sparse areas. He has a hard time judging the speed of oncoming cars, and that makes it not safe for him to drive in traffic, if he needs to actually make a left turn. When he drives sometimes it is okay if he makes right-hand turns to get to where he is going. But he is actually not able to drive to get places in general. He can also gets stressed out if another car does something unexpected.

 

My younger son has autism, and we have an actual goal of getting him to ask for help. We make up situations where he will have to ask for help in some way. Like -- we hide his shoes and he has to ask where they are when he needs them. I don't know if that will generalize, but I am told it is really common for kids with autism to have a hard time asking for help.

 

Facebook is really good for my cousin, bc he doesn't have to worry about the time of day. He has a lot of Facebook friends and I think it is a really good deal for him. If your son would do that, maybe he could do that instead of some phone use. But my cousin doesn't have any problem with too much time on the computer, so it makes sense for him.

 

If there is any kind of job he could do, I would look at that. My cousin had a job in his teens but my aunt and uncle didn't like that he was assigned cleaning toilets instead of taking tickets or concessions. Well -- now he would do so well with that kind of job, and it is hard for an older person to get started. He "should" be able to do better than that, but if he had worked a few shifts all this time, at least he would be working a few shifts and have some pride. He is very down about not having a job right now, has been fired a lot, and also has a feeling like he is too old to go back to that kind of job. After all -- he didn't want to quit at the time but my aunt and uncle convinced him to.

 

But that whole situation is "easier said than done."

 

I don't even know if that is more productive than something else, though. It is more just that it is too bad now that his parents made him quit that job, instead of wondering if there was a reason he wasn't getting assigned to other positions, and if they could find a way for him to train for those positions. But they did not know at the time.

 

And of course we would like him to have a much better job! But if he had more work experience of any kind it would be really helpful now, bc he has a hard time in a job when there is a change of plans or a change in routine.

 

Edit: he is very social, so a work-at-home job is not suited to him. We have thought of house-sitting or pet-sitting type stuff, but then someone has to drive him :( But something like that might be good, too. I think there are a lot of options, it just happens that my cousin seems suited to a job where he can be social and that has some structure. In general I don't think those are the jobs recommended, though.

 

He is very interested in genealogy, and if I lived closer I would like to help him have a business where he made nice genealogy things on the computer. He also likes to take oral histories and write them up for people. But it is not something that my relatives in my hometown want to take on or think is a good idea.

 

I hope I am not being too negative. I definitely think about life skills for my little son, but at the same time, I feel like I want him to be happy, and if he can be happy doing a "bad" job then that is what I want. But my son is 4, so I don't know.

 

I know it is a ridiculous subject for a lot of people who have Aspergers and who have a good job, too!

[geodob]

It is quite possible that you have a local Autism support group?

Which you could contact, as most of them have regular social skills training groups.

[bluedarling]

geodob - I have no idea!  Excellent suggestion....I might have to travel up to an hour, but I'm sure the nearest city does.  How would I find such a group?

 

Lecka - that driving scenario sounds a little like me, lol!  I CAN drive, but I get really stressed by it, which is why I choose not to live in the city.  I'm fine driving around here, and am hopeful my son will eventually be the same, though since he's more anxious than I, it may be expecting a little much of him.  He's very cautious, so I think he'd probably be OK...other than being paralyzed by having to make a fast decision.  He's been on Facebook for at least a year...he doesn't post much, he does OK, but I certainly don't feel it takes the place of being able to say, phone a company for information or to set up service.  He says he wants a job...says he's been looking...but the reality his idea of looking for a job is to tell mom he wants one.  When I tell him he needs to actually inquire about opportunities and fill out applications, he argues there's no point because half the kids his age at church are having trouble finding work.  (At least they are really LOOKING.)  It's OK, though, 'cuz I don't think he can handle a job AND schoolwork.  He would be best in detail-oriented job like one of my first jobs...putting labels on drawings or scanning things....than say something fast-paced like fast food.  But he sees the other kids applying for such jobs, so that's what he's thinking it means to have a job.  He wants a job because "that's what teens want" rule he's made up.  (When the psych asked why people got married, his response was "because that's what people do.  They get married."  He hears kids at church say they want a job, and he makes the rule "teens want jobs" and infers that he should want a job, too.  He's not really social, but he wants to do what others his age do...if they go to college, he wants to go to college....if they have girlfriends, he should to.....while I can see a job would be good for him in many respects, I'm also reminded of a friend who had a similar child.  She allowed him to work as a dishwasher at a restaurant, and began using drugs like his coworkers.  The fear of that keeps me from rushing into those kind of positions, though my son is so cautious I'm doubtful it would really be an issue for him.  I will consider the job thing.  I'm reading up on IEPs/504s at the moment, and I see jobs listed as part of transition plans....I guess I should give that some thought!

 

Thanks for sharing your nephew's story.

[Barbara H]

Here comes a strong opinion... if he's asking for social skills courses, I would strike while the iron is hot and prioritize it over everything else. At the end of the day academics matter less than being able to be a functional, independent person. At 16 your window of control is narrowing. At this age you can compel him to participate in therapy but at age 18 you won't be able to do and there may not be the same resources available as he gets older. Social skills classes or therapy may or may not be transforming, but this is the age to give it a shot and see where it takes him. The fact that he asked for it is a very positive sign!

[PrincessAriel]

As the mom of a young adult, who wasn't diagnosed until late teens, I would highly recommend some type of social skills class or perhaps even coaching. My ds did not learn  those skills and although highly intelligent and  capable in many ways, he really struggles and suffers from lack of or low social skills.  I would say definitely go for it!

[geodob]

You could check your phone book for a local Autism support group.

But if the nearest one is in city?

Most city groups are happy to help people with setting up and operating new groups in their towns.   

Where if you think of it terms of a social skills group for your son, you don't that many participants.

The city group can also help with applying for any funding?

Also with how to conduct a social skills group. Where they might be able to find someone to lead it.  Also to get funding to pay the person.

 

Though rather than suggesting that you could setup a local support group?

What I'm thinking of, is that you give your son the job of setting it and running it.  With your support.

Where he could begin with creating a facebook page for the group.  As he explores how to promote the group.

Maybe letting people at your church know about it. Where he has practice with explaining and discussing the group with people.

He would also need to form a committee for the Group.  

Which would involve having regular meetings with the committee.

Also no doubt, often having to contact people by phone.

As well as learning how to fill out and submit applications for funding.

Where he would also learn 'advocacy skills'.

So that he would develop a range of social skills from the setting up and running a local support group.

An important difference with doing work with a support group, is that as people aren't being paid. So that they aren't expected to be an expert, and are allowed to learn on the job.

Which greatly reduces the pressure and anxiety.

 

The skills that he would develop through this, would provide a valuable addition to his CV, when applying for jobs in the future.

So it seems that I'm hoping that you don't have a Local Autism Support Group ?

[Lecka]

The thing is -- where is his natural desire to do things kids his age do, going to end? Will he want to move out and be independent? I get if it is later, but he doesn't need to really want that and just then start baby steps.

 

I can understand concerns about copying a bad influence. I think it is worth the chance, though. Or looking for a good place to work.

 

Also -- people I think are more tolerant of a teen. I think he would have a better reception now than when older.

 

I would never want to hold back academics, but I think it has to be balanced. Bc life skills have to go along with academics. If he can't handle expectations of a job, he will not be employed, regardless of academics.

 

Also, you talk about his first job being scanning. He can feel good about that now. If he is more educated, he might feel like a loser to do scanning. He will know that is not a job other people are doing at that point.

 

But it sounds like your son has got a lot going for him, too. I have got a lot of signs, too, but I am a great stay-at-home mom and family CEO type. It would be harder for me to have a job. But for my cousin -- it is more crucial I think. He has a girlfriend and she can drive and work. My cousin is more high-functioning in some ways and they are a good couple any way. But it would just be nice if he could be more independent in his life skills.

 

At this point we do not know if he is going to be able to work, and my aunt and uncle have set up a special needs trust, and my sister is going to be his guardian. She is older than we are. If something happens to her, I will be his guardian, and I am younger.

 

He is not really aware of that, but if it happens, I think it will be hard on him.

 

I think life skills just get harder as other people are less open, and he knows he is behind.

 

If you think he might go to college, he needs life skills. If you think he might stay home extra time, he has time. If you think he might live at home for college -- he needs to still work on life skills bc at some point he will need to have them.

 

But is am also aware -- it is very hard to accomplish "make phone calls." Is there a chance he would have pretend calls with you? Might he do it for another adult who is not a parent, and who could be stricter? I don't know.

 

I want whatever life skills I can have for my son, though. I have two sisters, and we have 5 kids between us. My oldest niece may be helping with my cousin, when my sister and I are old. My kids and my two nieces may be helping with my son. This is just fact, and I want life skills.

 

Also my cousin has gotten more anxious at times. It kind-of comes and goes. So I would not count on his anxiety following a straight upward path. So I think that is another reason, that it is good to try every area, and not just academics, while he is in a good place. He might be fine to do on-line study while he is not in a good place, but he needs to be in a good place for social things and life skills.

 

Also kids his age may respect him more if he works. Maybe, maybe not. But I think there might be certain things that give him more social acceptability. I am not sure what those all are, but if he can do those things, it will help him.

[Lecka]

I am sorry to be negative. The fact is -- my cousin would be doing worse without great help he has gotten from my aunt and uncle!

 

I think my aunt thought at a certain point -- she would just take care of some things, so he could do things he could do. It is just not sustainable now, but at the same time, he has gotten a little unhappy with needing help. He also used to ways try his hardest at everything. But more recently he has gotten a feeling like he doesn't want to take correction from my aunt and uncle.

 

He is still a great person with a lot going for him, but he sees that I (for example) live on my own, with my husband and kids, and he would like that, too.

 

Anyway, at this point I see myself trying to prioritize life skills for my little son, bc I think it is what will help him be happy and independent, or as independent as possible.

 

But I do think academics are important, too.

 

Anyway though -- I don't think there is any known right way.

 

I am just expressing my opinion, and also, I do think my aunt and uncle over-helped my cousin and that many or most parents do a better job with a lot of living skills.

[bluedarling]

Hmmm...well I don't think there's much fear of me doing too much for him.  I do as little as I have to do!  My son is quite independent and able to complete all household chores (laundry, dishes, cooking, and helping his dad with basic home repairs)  He may be slow, but he gets it done!  I'm hopeful he'll be fine on his own...there are still question marks with will he be OK to drive and will he go into a store to buy food, or make phone calls needed for appointments/services, but I do not expect this child to be lifetime dependent on anyone.  I think that I'll just take from this that I need to start working with him on bus transporation/driving, purchasing, and phone calls.  I think we can teach those...we just need to be more emphatic about it, and ensure it gets done.  I don't think he requires any special help in that regard.

 

16 is such a hard age for dx.  If he'd been diagnosed at 8 it would have helped...I think he'd have been glad for the dx, then. (And I would have jumped at every help offered.) But right now he wants to be "normal".  He wants to fit in.  He wanted help with social skills to fit in with the kids at church...not to make friends with other SN kiddos.   I think I'm going to avoid special ed classes/social groups for now, and see if we can meet the same goals in the standard curriculum/activities.  He's in orchestra & youth group...he's not isolated...he's doing quite well!.  At church they give him eye contact reminders, and include him.  I think he's in a good place.  I might take advantage of transition services that help with things like securing a first job....and self-advocacy...these things I just don't know how to help him with, but I don't want to go overboard with "now you're special needs", and have that be just an added stressor.  I'm presenting this as...you have a label that if things get rough, there is help...you just have to ask for it.  He'll try had not to need any help...I know he will!  I'm inclined to say, let's see where he starts to hit a rough spot, and problem solve from there.  I can't possibly predict every support he will need in the future!  I think I'm just going to have to give him the supports he needs right now, and stop panicking about what the future will hold!

 

I agree life skills are important!  I will try to work more diligently on the ones I've identified as potential problems.

 

Geodob -- no, he won't be starting a local support group...I can pretty much guarantee that!!  He would have to want support, and right now he's not identifying with ASD.  He knows he is, but has mixed feelings about his dx.  He wants to fit in at church, not have a dx that says he's different.  I understand that.  I was 16 once, too!

 

PrincessAriel - thanks for your comments--because you had a child dx late like me, I do give your comments a lot of weight!  I guess maybe I should look into what exactly a social class will do for him before I make a decision.  If I can sell him that it will help him fit in at church...he might reconsider!

[Heathermomster]

My former boss has a DS with ASD. The son graduated recently from a private Christian school where he sat in a reg classroom. Anyho...Throughout adolescence, this young man spoke with a private counselor at least a couple times per month. He struggled with social situations, so the couselor guided him through dealing with appropriate behaviors.

This young man is big into karate, so he and his elder sibling opened up a karate school. Older brother is in charge. They co-own and operate the place.

I don't really like the idea of grouping individuals based upon their SNs. Definitely, do what you can to support him and help him maintain his dignity. I think the most difficult thing for theses kiddos to do as they mature is become their own advocate. They must learn that the needs they have do not define who they are as individuals. Blessings, h

[8filltheheart]

.there are still question marks with will he be OK to drive and will he go into a store to buy food, or make phone calls needed for appointments/services, ......

 

16 is such a hard age for dx.  If he'd been diagnosed at 8 it would have helped...I think he'd have been glad for the dx, then. (And I would have jumped at every help offered.) But right now he wants to be "normal".  He wants to fit in.  He wanted help with social skills to fit in with the kids at church...not to make friends with other SN kiddos.   I think I'm going to avoid special ed classes/social groups for now, and see if we can meet the same goals in the standard curriculum/activities.  He's in orchestra & youth group...he's not isolated...he's doing quite well!.  At church they give him eye contact reminders, and include him.  I think he's in a good place.  I might take advantage of transition services that help with things like securing a first job....and self-advocacy...these things I just don't know how to help him with, but I don't want to go overboard with "now you're special needs", and have that be just an added stressor.........

 

 

 

Geodob -- no, he won't be starting a local support group...I can pretty much guarantee that!!  He would have to want support, and right now he's not identifying with ASD.  He knows he is, but has mixed feelings about his dx.  He wants to fit in at church, not have a dx that says he's different.  I understand that.  I was 16 once, too!

 

PrincessAriel - thanks for your comments--because you had a child dx late like me, I do give your comments a lot of weight!  I guess maybe I should look into what exactly a social class will do for him before I make a decision.  If I can sell him that it will help him fit in at church...he might reconsider!

 

You have gotten a lot of really solid advice.   I wanted to point a few things.   I am just going to be matter of fact about what I have to say, so it may completely turn you off.   But, I could have/would have written what you did when our ds was  11/12.   He was finally diagnosed at 16.   From then to now (he is now 21), progress has been extremely, extremely limited.

 

First, the bolded.   If simply being in social situations enabled these young people to fit in and absorb the necessary social skills, then they more than likely would not be diagnosed as having Aspergers.   One of the issues is that they do not pick up on social cues and interpret them the same way as non-Aspies do.   I actually think there is a serious issue with the mid-part of the bolded sentence.   Social skills training or support groups are not about "making friends with other SN kiddos."   Regardless of how you couch it, your ds has differences that he is going to have to learn to deal with.   Support groups and social skills training help them learn how to cope and function.   If they make friends there, wonderful.   Especially at 16, having friendships with other people that struggle with some of the same issues you do makes you feel more normal, not less so.   The latter part of the bolded means that your ds is going to continue to function exactly the same way he is now b/c he is not being offered any support to deal with situations any differently than he currently is.  

 

To the first sentence.....that short list of items are HUGELY SIGNIFICANT issues.   They are very, very limiting.   For example, contacting the Dept of Rehabilitative Services (the first place you need to contact when they turn 18).   Would he make contact on his own?  What about making drs appts, seeking employment, etc.   How about dealing with problems with bank accts, insurance claims, utility bills, etc?   These are all life skills and where life skills training begins.  

 

On a college campus, is he going to be able to get clarification on what is meant for specific assignments?   Can he advocate for himself with a professor?  

 

FWIW, our ds constantly speaks in terms of wanting a girlfriend, wife, family, full-time employment, etc.   Saying it and having it be a good realistic option are not the same thing.   If he married someone functioning on the same level as himself, what would happen if their baby was sick?   Would they pick up the phone and call the dr?   Would they recognize the difference between fussy and ill?   would they be able to not hyper-focus on their specific interests to actually deal with children in a healthy way?   Could they financially provide for a child?  

 

Does the diagnosis answer questions?   Does it clarify deficits that you have witnessed?   If so, addressing them is the best way of helping your child.   If he didn't need help or the diagnosis, why was it pursued in the first place? 

 

I don't know if you have older kids or not, but when I see what neurotypical age-mates are doing completely independently vs. what our ds is completely unwilling or incapable of achieving on his own.....those are the areas that leap out at me as the areas that should be addressed directly and not swept under the rug as "an added stressor" or "going overboard with you are SN."   Either they are SN or they aren't.   Either they need help or they don't.     Not helping them directly with the needs that they do have will ultimately add more stress b/c they do not go away on their own.   With our ds......the less help he receives and the more he sees what he wants and is not actually achieving it, the more he shuts down and the more "disabled" he feels. 

[Barbara H]

   If simply being in social situations enabled these young people to fit in and absorb the necessary social skills, then they more than likely would not be diagnosed as having Aspergers.   One of the issues is that they do not pick up on social cues and interpret them the same way as non-Aspies do. 

 

I agree. It is absolutely fantastic that he has kids to interact with through youth group and orchestra. That is great, but it isn't a substitute for having some Asperger's specific support whether that is through therapy or social skills group. The purpose of the social skills group isn't to replace the youth group, but to help him be more successful there. Maybe an example to illustrate this would be to think of it like math. A kid who has a math disability but is in a classroom with kids who all learn at the typical pace in the typical way, is not going to have their needs met. They may be able to pick up 20% of what is being taught, but they need different approaches and more support to learn the other 80%. Sure, it is good if the kids in that traditional class are nice, but if they just keep saying "subtract here" (or "make eye contact") it isn't going to have him really learning what he needs to learn. Getting that math tutoring, or social skills support, improves the child's odds of being successful over the long term.

[Lecka]

There is a lot of cueing, scaffolding, and support that is invisible. I don't know I am doing it or providing it for my son. I kept him home for a year, and then really thought he would do well when he went to pre-school. I found a very nice place, with teachers who like all kids and work with all kids.

 

Well he did horrible, I had to take him out.

 

I never thought it was the teachers, or my son. It was just a mystery. Now I know about cueing and scaffolding. Especially cueing. This is like giving a little hint of what to do, or a nudge if he is stuck.

 

Well -- when these are not available, everything falls apart.

 

So this is how I see it for my cousin. If my cousin were in middle school he would be meeting expectations in every way. If he were in high school -- you would feel like you had to prod him. But to add everything an adult does ---- he is just far from those expectations, and I think a lot are invisible expectations.

 

Bc actually my cousin does very well socially at this point.

 

He does not need help daily, he can stay alone for a week, etc.

 

But there are a lot of things that go along with managing a life and he does not know to do them. A lot he can do if someone says "okay make this call." It is more he doesn't realize on his own "here is an issue, I must deal with it, I will take this course of action." He is stuck at noticing something is wrong. It is not even that he could call and ask for advice from a friend or relative. He doesn't know how to do that -- something is missing at that step.

 

But if you say: C, look, you need to take care of x, call so-and-so and tell them such-and-such.... Well, he can do that.

 

If it was literally a phone thing -- I would think about trying to find venues that allow e-mail scheduling. It wouldn't work for everything but might take a lot of pressure off.

 

But a lot of things are invisible bc they are not even things a teen is expected to do while living at home. Teens aren't problem-solving on an adult level. They can ask their parents for help and it is appropriate. They can expect their parents to help them arrange things and help them follow through.

 

But if it takes someone to help in arranging things ---- that is needing help. That is why my cousin will need help even at age 35. And it doesn't seem like it is going to go to zero help. He needs some help in arranging his life.

 

I doubt it is how many people picture, bc his strengths are real strengths, and then his weaknesses are real weaknesses. Most people think: if he can do x so well, surely he can do y at least a little. But it is just not like that. His weak areas are truly weak.

 

But I don't think people who might be higher or lower functioning are better or worse. I think to some extent this is just the breaks. Not everyone starts the same place or has he potential to end the same place, even with the same diagnosis. It can look different and be different.

 

But reading about Aspergers -- it seems like it is not rare to have problems with employment, or just the basics of living. I think more successful people still have these problems, often, but bc they have a marketable skill they outsource a lot, or marry and their spouse might take care of a lot.

 

Or -- their profile is different and life skills are not a problem area.

 

This is also mean to say -- but at a certain point if he doesn't meet the same milestones, it does get awkward. If they have certain milestones -- he will stick out not having them. I think any milestones he can meet would be good to try. Not avoid the hard ones and play to his strengths (maybe -- I am not sure about this). (Maybe meet the hard ones in a way playing to his stengths).

 

Bc at a certain point it is awkward and unavoidable if he does not have the life other people have. It is painful but I don't think it helps to avoid the hard things so he can continue to be part of the group.

 

We got to a point with my cousin where my aunt and uncle wanted him to sti be in the college group at church. But at a certain point you get too old! It gets creepy! So he is in young singles -- and that is great. But he is a young single mostly by age, not bc he shares other traits. But it is okay. But horrible for my aunt and uncle, bc they are always in denial and want to pretend everything is fine, he can still be in the college group.

 

So it is like -- I think there are a few more years he can probably fit in and pass easily, regardless of anything. But that does not necessarily continue past the time he is about 22. I mean, the immature kids are growing up about then, and the group that is still needing a lot of help gets really small.

 

So if something magical happens, or his functioning is actually really really good, then fine. If not -- the day of him turning about 22 is coming. He might do better with some skills and hard discussions coming slowly over this time.

 

Bc it is really crappy to leave him to start to be the creepy, too-old guy still going to the college group, and then of course his social situations will not go well. This happened with my cousin and my aunt and uncle didn't want to see it for a little while, other people needed to tell them.

 

But at the same time -- he can go to church on his own and arrange rides right now. But he can't decide on his own -- I should be in the college group, or in the singles group. He does not have the judgment to decide that. So yeah, he needs help with that, from someone.

 

So yeah, it looks like he will need lifelong support.

 

But at the same time -- if you don't know about the invisible things, he does great in many circumstances.

 

I would not be surprised at all for an outside observer not privy to the invisible things, to have no idea.

[bluedarling]

8FilltheHeart -

Thank you for taking the time for your reply.  I had a long reply to it...then a bluescreen wiped it away.  Summarizing....some of it was blunt, but much appreciated.  I am trying to think through some of this!

 

I guess even with a diagnosis, I'm still waffling on whether or not my child is really SN.  I have waffled about it since he was 2yo and raging.  I didn't have him diagnosed in part from not knowing who to go to, and in part because I could never make up my mind if he was really SN!  We finally diagnosed this year because it became obvious that he was considering college, and I knew his slow processing would be a hindrance.  I didn't diagnose because my son was "different".....although looking back, I can admit there were definitely challenges that should have classified him SN.  He was a VERY difficult child...I don't think they come more challenging!  But...if we had a diagnosis...maybe we'd have been more understanding...and maybe he wouldn't have been so "challenging'.  So, is he SN now?  The diagnosis says he is.  You are saying some of the issues I consider minor are really actually definitely SN. Obviously, in order to get the diagnosis, I have acknowledged things are different.  I acknowledge he is a slow processor.  I acknowledge he does not empathize.  I acknowledge his indecision drives me NUTS (even though I have similar struggles...just not as severe.)  I acknowledge he deals with some anxiety.  But I waffle on whether these things make him SN or if they are just idiosyncrasies similar to everyone else (like me).  I waffle on whether he needs outside therapy...which is why I came here!

 

You bring up some good points.  Can he self-advocate with a professor?  No, not yet....but I am hoping eventually.  I put him in 2 online public school courses this next year so that he would be forced to learn to ask for help and request accommodations.  However, it may be like throwing a child in a lake to learn how to swim!  I see that, now.   I originally wanted to place him in ps for those reasons, but my husband said no fortunately.   Can he make phone calls for appts....not yet....but I planned to work with him on it (though I HATE making phonecalls myself....he may think I'm just making him do what I don't like to do.)  So...what I am hearing, I think, is that therapy for these things are better than just more "practice" with these skills.  That maybe these are things I SHOULD consider outsourcing (whether that be through the public school or a private practitioner.)  I'm hearing that its more involved to teach than I was anticipating. I've never thought that he is incapable of shopping or making phone calls...just that he refused to try.  Possibly there is more to it than that.   Part of what classified him was the psych observations of eye contact...I told her he had excellent eye contact!  (What we consider eye contact was different.)  Possibly having someone trained in these things is better than me trying to teach it with my own perceptions/idiosyncrasies.    I definitely agree with her diagnosis....but she didn't say he is going to need all these services.  She put in the report that he should have extra time on high stakes tests (what I was after).  I asked about school accommodations in general, and she said "Oh they have a list of what they provide for Aspergers.  If he was in school, I'd recommend social skills classes."  That was it.  I'm having a hard time accepting/picturing him totally dependent upon me....but he definitely doesn't have many of those life skills yet.   I'm hearing that he should have some of those by 16yo? 

 

>>With our ds......the less help he receives and the more he sees what he wants and is not actually achieving it, the more he shuts down and the more "disabled" he feels.<<

Definitely food for thought!  The process started because my son hears his friends are starting dual-enrollment classes, and he wants to go, too.  The reality is that he unlikely to be ready for early college entrance.  His friends are all dating.  He isn't.  His friends have jobs.  He doesn't.  These are, I suppose, what makes him "different".

 

I will consider pursuing therapy.

[bluedarling]

So this is how I see it for my cousin. If my cousin were in middle school he would be meeting expectations in every way. If he were in high school -- you would feel like you had to prod him. But to add everything an adult does ---- he is just far from those expectations, and I think a lot are invisible expectations.

 

Bc actually my cousin does very well socially at this point.

 

He does not need help daily, he can stay alone for a week, etc.

 

But there are a lot of things that go along with managing a life and he does not know to do them. A lot he can do if someone says "okay make this call." It is more he doesn't realize on his own "here is an issue, I must deal with it, I will take this course of action." He is stuck at noticing something is wrong. It is not even that he could call and ask for advice from a friend or relative. He doesn't know how to do that -- something is missing at that step.

 

But if you say: C, look, you need to take care of x, call so-and-so and tell them such-and-such.... Well, he can do that.

 

 

OK...thanks for this description.  Yes....that sounds a lot like my son.  I was hoping he'd outgrow that, though!  

[Lecka]

As far as how people say things like: a male brain is not mature until age 25, some guys just have to get to that age.

 

I would not count on that at all.

 

I think a lot of progress can be had, but I think a lot will be the result of effort and experience and finding out the best techniques to help him.

 

I don't think you can wait for that moment when everything clicks and they become the proverbial late bloomer, but are actually able to get along just fine and start being independent in every way.

 

But if you wait around for that moment, then that is time lost to possible life skills, and it could take a long time with tiny incremental steps any way.

 

My cousin is a lot improved. He stayed "alone" for 3 days in high school but someone from church spent the night at my aunt and uncle's house. Now he can stay alone fine. A lot of things like that. He has a girlfriend! They are a sweet couple. She also lives with her parents and her brother also owns a small business and employs her.

 

But she has been working for years. They tried to hire my cousin but it didn't work, he was not able to handle a change in routine. That I think might be different if they had started earlier. It is a lot harder older, bc there is not the leeway a young person gets anymore.

 

But every little thing he can do is really good, and makes a huge difference.

 

Also I would read about autism, not just Aspergers. I have found a lot of things relevant to my cousin.

 

The thing of: knowing what to do and doing it -- I think can fall under initiation and generalization.

 

I don't really understand how generalization works with my son, but for initiation, we practice something and then set up the situation, and then we wait. Maybe we wait a long time. But then we move to "a series of least-to-most prompts."

 

We also do back chaining to teach him how to do things.

 

I think this stuff might be worthwhile. Not sure -- it is what I think about for my son.

 

My aunt and uncle are recommended to get a life skills coach for my cousin, but they are resistant to it. It is very frustrating for myself and some other family members who are spectators. But at the same time my aunt and uncle do and have done amazing things.

 

I don't really know how to do things the best way, my son is so little and he is really not rigid. This is why I thought he didn't have autism, btw. He is not rigid and my cousin has ways been rigid. But my son is actually a lot more severe than my cousin, now that I am seeing it.

 

But yeah, I think in thing is that the psych does not give all the answers, it gives the diagnosis. He/she is giving entree into services that will be available to someone with a diagnosis. Also you are the one providing information, and if you are doing a lot for him (maybe), and don't see it as a problem, you are not seeking help for it. I have an opinion that life skills are underrated sometimes, too. I think they are pretty important.

 

Also life skills are not going away. If he gets to where he can do great in a school environment, that doesn't automatically mean he will have that level of functioning in other areas of his life. Hopefully he will, but it might not transfer. And I think in almost all circumstances life skills are going to be needed, while school skills might not be. But hopefully it all works together.

 

I think about this stuff a lot.

[8filltheheart]

  I'm having a hard time accepting/picturing him totally dependent upon me....but he definitely doesn't have many of those life skills yet.   I'm hearing that he should have some of those by 16yo? 

 

 

I think Lecka has done a beautiful job empathetically presenting many of the issues, truly.

 

The reason I asked if this was your oldest is because as they get older, no, they don't outgrow things.   Unfortunately, the differences simply become more and more pronounced.   What was a little different, becomes a little quirky, becomes an issue, becomes clearly evident lack of skills.

 

They don't just pick on things and even things that are so simple that you'd clearly believe them capable of understanding, they don't make the connection or the leap.

 

FWIW, out of the group of young adult Aspies we have been around, academically our ds is by far the most advanced--significantly so.  But, that statement is completely meaningless in his life.   I have written before that my biggest regret in parenting is not dropping huge portions of academics in favor of a greater focus on social skills and life skills training.   That regret has not changed.   It just gets more and more complicated the older they become.  

[bluedarling]

I think Lecka has done a beautiful job empathetically presenting many of the issues, truly.

 

The reason I asked if this was your oldest is because as they get older, no, they don't outgrow things.   Unfortunately, the differences simply become more and more pronounced.   What was a little different, becomes a little quirky, becomes an issue, becomes clearly evident lack of skills.

 

They don't just pick on things and even things that are so simple that you'd clearly believe them capable of understanding, they don't make the connection or the leap.

 

FWIW, out of the group of young adult Aspies we have been around, academically our ds is by far the most advanced--significantly so.  But, that statement is completely meaningless in his life.   I have written before that my biggest regret in parenting is not dropping huge portions of academics in favor of a greater focus on social skills and life skills training.   That regret has not changed.   It just gets more and more complicated the older they become.  

 

I'm surprised to hear that they don't continue to figure stuff out.....my son has made INCREDIBLE progress over the last 3-4 years (since puberty).  He doesn't rage like he used to, you can reason with now on schedule changes (he still doesn't like change, but he's more accepting of it), he's become so much more independent, developed some organizational skills with his schoolwork, helps around the house.....the changes have really been HUGE.  I guess based on what I've seen the last 3-4 years, I'm expecting more of the same!  This child who has always had a total lack of empathy has even lately shown glimmers of empathy! (It was shocking!)   Are you telling me this growth stops, now, and I won't continue to see progress?    Or are you saying the progress I've seen is unusual?

[8filltheheart]

I'm surprised to hear that they don't continue to figure stuff out.....my son has made INCREDIBLE progress over the last 3-4 years (since puberty).  He doesn't rage like he used to, you can reason with now on schedule changes (he still doesn't like change, but he's more accepting of it), he's become so much more independent, developed some organizational skills with his schoolwork, helps around the house.....the changes have really been HUGE.  I guess based on what I've seen the last 3-4 years, I'm expecting more of the same!  This child who has always had a total lack of empathy has even lately shown glimmers of empathy! (It was shocking!)   Are you telling me this growth stops, now, and I won't continue to see progress?    Or are you saying the progress I've seen is unusual?

 

It is all relative.   You are happy bc he has made small steps forward which is absolutely wonderful for him!!  but comparatively speaking, should any of those things you listed seem like accomplishments for a 16 yr old?  That list is more appropriate for a 9-10 yr old.  The leaps that kids make to adulthood are enormous.   From 14 to 16 and 16 to 18 are as radically different as between infancy and 4 in normal kids (think in terms of completely dependent vs. independent, being able to dress, potty, feed themselves, etc......you expect those normal progressions.)   My non-SN 16 yr olds could walk out the door and be completely independent.   Other than needing to find a source of income (which they could figure out how to seek on their own and do it on their own), there is nothing that they couldn't figure out on their own and survive a perfectly normal life.

 

It isn't that growth completely stops (well, in some areas anyway.   In some areas w/o direct pointing out by us, he would be oblivious bc he just doesn't notice or in some cases has too much anxiety and refuses to do.)  It is that it is very far from normal progression, and w/o direct interventions, infinitesimally small.   Skills training, social training, therapy, etc all help them learn to do the things that normal kids learn to do w/o much thought. 

 

For a generic example, consider college classes.   My older kids register for their own classes, make appts with their advisors, buy their books, meet with professors, etc w/o me even knowing what they are doing.   They did all of the above as high school students dual enrolling.   My Aspie, otoh, needs help reading the course catalog, knowing how to figure out how to create a schedule that flows, help with the disabilities office, help making the professors know that he qualifies for extra time and quiet room for testing, etc, etc.   He could register for classes, but he wouldn't think about the flow.   He could pick a class, but it might not be the best option for that given semester.   He would not make an appt on his own w/o being told he needed to, etc.  

[Lecka]

I don't think progress stops at all. I think that the demands get a lot harder, so it is harder to reach the new goals.

 

I think a lot of things you are just supposed to know, take a long time to be assimilated.

 

My cousin has made a lot of progress, it is just not enough that he can be independent and self-directed.

[bluedarling]

It is all relative.   You are happy bc he has made small steps forward which is absolutely wonderful for him!!  but comparatively speaking, should any of those things you listed seem like accomplishments for a 16 yr old?  That list is more appropriate for a 9-10 yr old.  The leaps that kids make to adulthood are enormous.   From 14 to 16 and 16 to 18 are as radically different as between infancy and 4 in normal kids (think in terms of completely dependent vs. independent, being able to dress, potty, feed themselves, etc......you expect those normal progressions.)   My non-SN 16 yr olds could walk out the door and be completely independent.   Other than needing to find a source of income (which they could figure out how to seek on their own and do it on their own), there is nothing that they couldn't figure out on their own and survive a perfectly normal life.

 

It isn't that growth completely stops (well, in some areas anyway.   In some areas w/o direct pointing out by us, he would be oblivious bc he just doesn't notice or in some cases has too much anxiety and refuses to do.)  It is that it is very far from normal progression, and w/o direct interventions, infinitesimally small.   Skills training, social training, therapy, etc all help them learn to do the things that normal kids learn to do w/o much thought. 

 

For a generic example, consider college classes.   My older kids register for their own classes, make appts with their advisors, buy their books, meet with professors, etc w/o me even knowing what they are doing.   They did all of the above as high school students dual enrolling.   My Aspie, otoh, needs help reading the course catalog, knowing how to figure out how to create a schedule that flows, help with the disabilities office, help making the professors know that he qualifies for extra time and quiet room for testing, etc, etc.   He could register for classes, but he wouldn't think about the flow.   He could pick a class, but it might not be the best option for that given semester.   He would not make an appt on his own w/o being told he needed to, etc.  

 

Wow.  I knew my 14yo was very immature, but I never considered my 16yo immatiure.  That took me by surprise!

 

I just thought he didn't know how to do these things because he is homeschooled and hasn't had as much experience with independence.  I guess I need to be around some homeschooled NT 16yos!   

 

Thanks for helping me gain some perspective.

 

[bluedarling]

I don't think progress stops at all. I think that the demands get a lot harder, so it is harder to reach the new goals.

 

I think a lot of things you are just supposed to know, take a long time to be assimilated.

 

My cousin has made a lot of progress, it is just not enough that he can be independent and self-directed.

 

I think his job situation has a lot to do with luck, the economy, and him living in a college town with a lot of competition for jobs that seem suitable for him.

 

Thanks, Lecka!  That's encouraging....phew!

[8filltheheart]

Wow. I knew my 14yo was very immature, but I never considered my 16yo immatiure. That took me by surprise!

 

I just thought he didn't know how to do these things because he is homeschooled and hasn't had as much experience with independence. I guess I need to be around some homeschooled NT 16yos!

 

Thanks for helping me gain some perspective.

 

I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not, but the question really boils down to if you gave a crash course on survival skills.....managing a bank acct, a list of utilities, a newspaper of apts for rent, etc.....could they learn the skills fairly easily and transfer them to self-functioning, especially if the finances were provided? (My kids could run our entire household if that had to by around age 14. They wouldn't like it, but they could do it. Our Aspie, otoh, wouldn't have a clue bc he can't manage the big picture. He could do bits and pieces and the other parts would be completely ignored bc they wouldn't seem obvious to him. He would need months and months of mastering one skill and then introduction to another, guidance and support reminding him to do both, etc before moving on to the next.

 

He did live in our old house for a month on his own while we were in transition. We left him all his food and spoke to him daily and a neighbor checked on him constantly. But, he didn't need to pay bills or manage a household. He simply needed to make his own food and do his laundry. That he managed but he couldn't have done more than that and dh flew there multiple times to check on him.

Thanks, Lecka! That's encouraging....phew!

I just wanted to point out that Lecka's comments aren't saying anything different than mine. She is just stating them in a lower key. Notice that she still made the point that her cousin (and she is posting from the outside looking in and not actually parenting him) " has made a lot of progress, it is just not enough that he can be independent and self-directed." I don't know how old her cousin is, but he is older than our ds bc she made the comment that he was diagnosed in his early 20s and our ds is only 21.

[bluedarling]

I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not, but the question really boils down to if you gave a crash course on survival skills.....managing a bank acct, a list of utilities, a newspaper of apts for rent, etc.....could they learn the skills fairly easily and transfer them to self-functioning, especially if the finances were provided? (My kids could run our entire household if that had to by around age 14. They wouldn't like it, but they could do it. Our Aspie, otoh, wouldn't have a clue bc he can't manage the big picture. He could do bits and pieces and the other parts would be completely ignored bc they wouldn't seem obvious to him. He would need months and months of mastering one skill and then introduction to another, guidance and support reminding him to do both, etc before moving on to the next.

 

He did live in our old house for a month on his own while we were in transition. We left him all his food and spoke to him daily and a neighbor checked on him constantly. But, he didn't need to pay bills or manage a household. He simply needed to make his own food and do his laundry. That he managed but he couldn't have done more than that and dh flew there multiple times to check on him.

I just wanted to point out that Lecka's comments aren't saying anything different than mine. She is just stating them in a lower key. Notice that she still made the point that her cousin (and she is posting from the outside looking in and not actually parenting him) " has made a lot of progress, it is just not enough that he can be independent and self-directed." I don't know how old her cousin is, but he is older than our ds bc she made the comment that he was diagnosed in his early 20s and our ds is only 21.

 

No sarcasm intended at all!  I'm getting an education in my son!  And no, my son would not take iniative to do anything on his own (which is why he's giving up on scouts...he has one-two merit badges because he won't take the iniative to complete requirements unless someone walks him through it step by step.)   I'm starting to realize there really are issues that he's not going to suddenly grow out of, and I truly thank you for your help to get to that point.  

[Lecka]

I am not the parent, and it is definitely true it is a quibble for me to think they should have prioritized certain things.

 

His social skills have come so far, and I think they did decide that was what they thought was more important.

 

And my cousin has always, always, always wanted to have a girlfriend.

 

So I think they did take his wishes into account.

 

Also he had a job for over a year one time, but when they had to reduce numbers with the recession, he lost his job. One other time he also did pretty good in a job, but they changed the certification requirements.

 

Once was working as a counselor at an after-school program, once as a substitute aide at a school (like a substitute teacher but for an aide).

 

Then other jobs have not gone well, and he has applied for a lot he has not gotten.

 

Also there were really not resources available for my aunt and uncle.

[bluedarling]

My 16yo just asked to be logged on to the computer to "look for a job!"  Not sure what that means.

 

We start school here in 3 weeks.  Here is what is currently planned for the semester.

   Writing (paid outside class with some driving time)

   Biology (paid outside class with LOTs of driving time)

   Algebra (at home)

   US/World History 2 (at home)

   French I (PS online class, utilizes the Rosetta Stone he's already worked on)

   Engineering Design I (PS online class, computer-aided design he thinks will help him towards becoming a robotics technician)

   Orchestra 2

And now we're supposed to add Social skills class at the local high school and a job, too!!!  For a child who is insufferably slow to complete anything....

I'm thinking something has to give!

 

Suggestions?

 

[MomatHWTK]

My experience thus far is that some kids will watch TV, watch others, watch you, listen to you and pick up on age appropriate skills as they progress.  If they haven't been exposed to something they may not figure it out, but can often pick up the skill through observation.  My one child, will pick up the skill if I specifically say "While we are watching this show, observe how X handles this situation.  That is the way to handle that type of situation."  There is really little or no inferential learning for him. 

 

I think all kids need life skills training.  The difference is that often we are providing life skills training that our other kids pick up on so casually that we really don't notice.  With the SN child there is often a need for more deliberate training and practice to achieve the same level. 

 

If my 9 yo found herself home alone with the other children, she would come up with an emegency plan and implement it (she's a good vice-mommy).  My others- sheer panic.

 

 

ETA: Just saw your latest post and am answering only because you did mention you are still getting a grasp of the implications of a SN teen-

 

I personally have had to stop working toward an academic schedule that would get the child in question into any college he might want to go to, and instead made life skills and coping with his emotional needs and adjustments a top priority.  I am not feeling the pressure of high school yet.  But as  I look ahead, I have trouble seeing how this student of mine would do the regular college-prep line up.  KWIM?  I am having to adjust my mindset to see him as a non-traditional student.   He will get there, but it probably isn't going to be by the same path as other kids. 

 

My conclusion has been, regardless of what he learns academically, if he can't get through life then he's not going to get much use out of that knowledge.  I don't abandon academics, but life skills are a priority. 

[Lecka]

I think for "job" he could volunteer somewhere fairly sheltered. I would ask around at church and see if anyone had an idea.

 

I think he could start out pretty small.

 

My first two thoughts are: playing with animals in a shelter, or serving food for the homeless. Maybe he could ride with a meals on wheels person.

 

But if it was just 2 hours once a week -- I think it could be a good start!

 

I don't really know though, it is just my opinion.

 

Edit: we just started video modeling with my son. His therapist made some videos of my older son playing with some toys, and my son likes to watch and is imitating some on his own. So I have a good opinion of videos, too.

 

I really don't know about the educational schedule, though!

 

Also -- if he wants to be a robotics technician, I would try to look into that, or try to get him to look into it. Maybe he can do that!!!!

[8filltheheart]

My conclusion has been, regardless of what he learns academically, if he can't get through life then he's not going to get much use out of that knowledge. I don't abandon academics, but life skills are a priority.

The best advice that I ever received.....that I ignored, btw bc I **knew** just how intelligent ds was and that the individual didn't know what they were saying........was

"All the education and knowledge in the world won't help him if he can't hold a job."

 

Exactly. Hindsight and all of that. Yep, I was playing ostrich.

 

I think you need to stop thinking in terms of college prep. Drop orchestra. Simplify biology. Do a simple program at home. As far as a job, I agree with trying to find a volunteer position, but only if there is time after life skills and social skills training.

[Lecka]

I would not put volunteering ahead of social skills or life skills, either. But I would start looking around and mentioning it. It might take a little time to find something that seems to be a good fit. Ideally it would be more than something where he just showed up and was there, you know? Ideally it would be something where he was practicing things to help him.

[bluedarling]

My experience thus far is that some kids will watch TV, watch others, watch you, listen to you and pick up on age appropriate skills as they progress.  If they haven't been exposed to something they may not figure it out, but can often pick up the skill through observation.  My one child, will pick up the skill if I specifically say "While we are watching this show, observe how X handles this situation.  That is the way to handle that type of situation."  There is really little or no inferential learning for him. 

 

I think all kids need life skills training.  The difference is that often we are providing life skills training that our other kids pick up on so casually that we really don't notice.  With the SN child there is often a need for more deliberate training and practice to achieve the same level. 

 

If my 9 yo found herself home alone with the other children, she would come up with an emegency plan and implement it (she's a good vice-mommy).  My others- sheer panic.

 

 

ETA: Just saw your latest post and am answering only because you did mention you are still getting a grasp of the implications of a SN teen-

 

I personally have had to stop working toward an academic schedule that would get the child in question into any college he might want to go to, and instead made life skills and coping with his emotional needs and adjustments a top priority.  I am not feeling the pressure of high school yet.  But as  I look ahead, I have trouble seeing how this student of mine would do the regular college-prep line up.  KWIM?  I am having to adjust my mindset to see him as a non-traditional student.   He will get there, but it probably isn't going to be by the same path as other kids. 

 

My conclusion has been, regardless of what he learns academically, if he can't get through life then he's not going to get much use out of that knowledge.  I don't abandon academics, but life skills are a priority. 

 

OK...I'm beginning to get the picture. :)   My child at 9yo would not have had the forsight for an emergency plan.  I didn't start leaving him home by himself until approx. 13yo, and with other children until around...ummm...16yo!  It was a long road...but I'm finally FREE!!    Anyway...I'm getting the picture...NOT NORMAL.  Thanks for adding your description.

 

"and coping with his emotional needs"  My son's emotional needs really haven't required much coping the last few years....he's really evened out.  My son is a year behind in school (we repeated 8th because he wasn't ready for any high school level classes.)  Even with that...he's taking the exact same courses in 10th that his brother is taking in 9th...so in a sense 2 years behind academically.  Not a big deal, except that he may not be able to finish in 4 years because of the pace.  He will be 19 or 20 when he graduates....unless I decide to reduce requirements for high school graduation, and I suppose I COULD do that...I was just trying to keep as many doors open as I could.  I may let him graduate at 19 regardless of his credits....but I want him to have options!  I need to look again at comm. college requirements.

 

I still hope he CAN get through life, but with everyone's feedback here, I am willing to admit there is a real possibility that he may find it more challenging than I have anticipated. I really do agree life skills are important for all kids...I am determined my kids will learn to balance a checkbook over Calculus (I took Calculus my jr. year of hs, and really had no clue how to apply it!  Still don't...and I had quite advanced math in college.)    So...its not that I object to the emphasis....I'm just having to adjust my views of how to get there.  I knew a 4-year college was likely out...we were eye-ing either comm. college or technical school, where he could stay at home another year or two.  However, my husband has always said he's out when he's 18...that he's had it with his behavior....but the reality is that this child needs time.  I may send him to grandma for comm. college (in exchange he'd drive for blind grandfather and other aged relatives)....that's still TBD, but he likely won't be on his own at 18.  I knew that....so I guess I knew he was SN. 

 

Now...off to plan high school schedule!

[bluedarling]

I would not put volunteering ahead of social skills or life skills, either. But I would start looking around and mentioning it. It might take a little time to find something that seems to be a good fit. Ideally it would be more than something where he just showed up and was there, you know? Ideally it would be something where he was practicing things to help him.

 

Agreed.

[Barbara H]

 

"and coping with his emotional needs"  My son's emotional needs really haven't required much coping the last few years....he's really evened out. 

 

One thing to keep in mind is that emotional life tends to get more complicated for a lot of teens as adolescence goes on and into adulthood. There are issues like managing friendships, making new friendships outside of connections provided by family or activities parents have required you to join, coping with bosses, dealing with loss of grandparents or other loved ones, dating/romantic relationships, handling criticism from instructors, coping with rejection, dealing with uncertainty about independence, etc.  Growing up isn't easy.

[bluedarling]

The best advice that I ever received.....that I ignored, btw bc I **knew** just how intelligent ds was and that the individual didn't know what they were saying........was

"All the education and knowledge in the world won't help him if he can't hold a job."

 

Exactly. Hindsight and all of that. Yep, I was playing ostrich.

 

I think you need to stop thinking in terms of college prep. Drop orchestra. Simplify biology. Do a simple program at home. As far as a job, I agree with trying to find a volunteer position, but only if there is time after life skills and social skills training.

 

Thanks for the suggestions.  I think I'll keep biology because he's doing it with his brother (I still have to commute there anyway...and he likes a girl there....might be enough motivation to do well!)  He said he doesn't care that much if I drop the engineering design.  He really doesn't want to drop orchestra (same girl)....and I don't want him to....because....he's actually pretty good!!  (Surprisingly.)  So...French?  the only reason for taking it this year is because he just tried Rosetta Stone on his own this past year, and didn't want to lose ground....it could be dropped....the only reasons for taking foreign language are a) university requirements, which really don't apply, and b) he didn't want to hit for the first time in college.  I could care less if he drops history...again its a continuation of a course last year....but I don't think its critical they are taken back to back.  Does this sound more correct? (It means we are dropping our public school courses, lol!...except for social skills, which btw...I don't even know for sure I can access!!)  So, I'm revising his 4 year plan...I'm still trying to meet min. state requirements, not because we have to, just because it seems to be a good "minimum".  Took out 4th year of English, 2 years Foreign lang, 1 science, and all the electronics/tech electives!  Replaced with social/job skills.

 

9th: (6cr)

    Basic English

    Pre-Algebra

    Physical Science

    US/World History 1

    Conversational French 1/2cr

    PE 1/2 cr

    Orchestra

 

10th: (5-6cr)

    HS English

    Biology  (2 years of science satisfied)

    Algebra

    Orchestra

    Social Skills

   and p/t job/volunteer

 

Then 11th: (5-6cr)

   HS English (3 years of LA satisfied)

   US/World History 2

   Geometry

   PE 1/2 cr

   Orchestra

   Life Skills / Job

  

Then 12th: (6cr)

   Chemistry?  (NOT REQ'D, but might be useful for robotics tech?)

   Algebra II  (3 credits alg. and above)

   Gov't/Economics or State History (2.5 SS satisfied)

   Health/PE (2 PE/Health satisfied)

   Orchestra

   Social Skills/Job

[bluedarling]

One thing to keep in mind is that emotional life tends to get more complicated for a lot of teens as adolescence goes on and into adulthood. There are issues like managing friendships, making new friendships outside of connections provided by family or activities parents have required you to join, coping with bosses, dealing with loss of grandparents or other loved ones, dating/romantic relationships, handling criticism from instructors, coping with rejection, dealing with uncertainty about independence, etc.  Growing up isn't easy.

 

Good point!  He hasn't had to deal with ANY of that, yet, to my knowledge. Things are REALLY easy on him right now...which may be part of why he is doing so well.  We need to start "experiencing" difficulty though, so he can learn to deal with it before he's on own!!  That's one of the disadvantages of being homeschooled....he's been very sheltered.

[MomatHWTK]

It is very difficult to find the balance between protecting the child who needs some shelter and pushing him to achieve what he can.  It can be emotionally difficult for both parent and child.  My child's therapist basically told me if I wanted to see progress then I would have to push a little.  Rocks don't roll  on their own. KWIM? 

[Lecka]

That is so true. I can forget it sometimes, but my son's therapist has had to say to me -- he is capable of x but he will not do it in his own. Of course it is nothing too easy, lol, just something the therapist sees he could be doing. She knows what is a fair expectation and I don't know that on my own.

 

For my cousin, my aunt and uncle were very pleased when he was a teen and not getting into trouble, not disagreeing with them, not acting like he couldn't wait to get out of the house, not placing his own life above the family things they did, etc. They felt fortunate compared to their friends. But my aunt says she realizes now, that is a phase for teens. Maybe not getting in trouble or being rude, but at least starting to have things where they choose and don't make the choice the parents would make.

 

They did not mind having him agree with their suggestions.

 

Well -- at a certain point this is a problem, but it is not usually the position for parents, to say: you need to decide this, don't just ask me what I think the best thing is.

 

That is not exactly it, bc there is more to it, but he does not deal well with anything like "mom and dad think I should do x, but I think y is better, and I am going to do y."

 

In a way that really is the goal of parenting!

 

But this is so, so difficult for my cousin. He wants things to be the right way. It doesn't seem to occur to him that there are a few options, maybe they are all okay, maybe he could pick between the options or think of another option.

 

With that a problem (I see it called flexible thinking vs rigid thinking or fixed thinking) then it is like -- he has to learn every single little thing, he doesn't say "oh, I could do this."

 

I know now there are programs to encourage flexible thinking, but I don't know details. And then -- they might say autism. Bc my aunt and uncle are from an older generation, the word autism still has a large stigma to them, and they don't like that word, or programs that might use that word. (They do not have any stigma toward me or my son, in any way, at all, it is just a hard word for them for themselves.)

 

At the same time, he has gotten better about this! But it is better than it used to be, it is overall not yet good enough to "use flexible thinking strategies to solve problems." But that is no small thing! It is a huge improvement and has improved his life! It is just not good enough to make decisions that adults need to make. And sometimes not good enough to make decisions that would let him keep a job that demands too much in this way.

 

This is something where -- a social skills group might be learning flexible thinking strategies, or a therapist might work on it. But I don't think my cousin has ever had this opportunity. He has had a social skills class but it was more about facial expressions and where to stand. It was about 15 years ago. I think there are a lot better programs available now. (My cousin is 35 or 36.)

[bluedarling]

That is so true. I can forget it sometimes, but my son's therapist has had to say to me -- he is capable of x but he will not do it in his own. Of course it is nothing too easy, lol, just something the therapist sees he could be doing. She knows what is a fair expectation and I don't know that on my own.

 

For my cousin, my aunt and uncle were very pleased when he was a teen and not getting into trouble, not disagreeing with them, not acting like he couldn't wait to get out of the house, not placing his own life above the family things they did, etc. They felt fortunate compared to their friends. But my aunt says she realizes now, that is a phase for teens. Maybe not getting in trouble or being rude, but at least starting to have things where they choose and don't make the choice the parents would make.

 

They did not mind having him agree with their suggestions.

 

Well -- at a certain point this is a problem, but it is not usually the position for parents, to say: you need to decide this, don't just ask me what I think the best thing is.

 

That is not exactly it, bc there is more to it, but he does not deal well with anything like "mom and dad think I should do x, but I think y is better, and I am going to do y."

 

In a way that really is the goal of parenting!

 

But this is so, so difficult for my cousin. He wants things to be the right way. It doesn't seem to occur to him that there are a few options, maybe they are all okay, maybe he could pick between the options or think of another option.

 

With that a problem (I see it called flexible thinking vs rigid thinking or fixed thinking) then it is like -- he has to learn every single little thing, he doesn't say "oh, I could do this."

 

I know now there are programs to encourage flexible thinking, but I don't know details. And then -- they might say autism. Bc my aunt and uncle are from an older generation, the word autism still has a large stigma to them, and they don't like that word, or programs that might use that word. (They do not have any stigma toward me or my son, in any way, at all, it is just a hard word for them for themselves.)

 

At the same time, he has gotten better about this! But it is better than it used to be, it is overall not yet good enough to "use flexible thinking strategies to solve problems." But that is no small thing! It is a huge improvement and has improved his life! It is just not good enough to make decisions that adults need to make. And sometimes not good enough to make decisions that would let him keep a job that demands too much in this way.

 

This is something where -- a social skills group might be learning flexible thinking strategies, or a therapist might work on it. But I don't think my cousin has ever had this opportunity. He has had a social skills class but it was more about facial expressions and where to stand. It was about 15 years ago. I think there are a lot better programs available now. (My cousin is 35 or 36.)

 

I see my son (and I) in a lot of this.  His thinking isn't totally rigid, because there are occasions he problem solves for me....he's really smart...and often sees a solution I had not considered (my problem...not his).  But overall, if there is a decision to be made, he won't decide.  He'll either ignore it, or force me to make the decision.  (I don't like decisions, either!  So I really dislike this, but I do it anyway, if it must be done.  Occasionally I make his dad decide, lol!)    I would be interested to learn about the programs for flexible thinking.

 

I just looked up 'flexible thinking':

"Being a flexible thinker involves improvising with something when you don't have exactly what you need, having your ideas and suggestions being rejected, coming up with an alternative plan whenever the original plan doesn't work and another plan and sometimes another plan, adapting to suit others needs and challenges and preferences, changing the way you think and behave and speak to others, accepting criticism and suggestions, analyzing situations and deciding whether something needs changing, taking in other people's perspectives, coming up with best fit solutions when a perfect one cannot be devised, accepting good enough results instead of aiming for perfection."

Article Source: http://EzineArticles.com/6642243

 

I think he could improvise something for a lab experiment if we didn't have exactly the right thing...but more often he just says I couldn't do the experiment because we didn't have xyz (its the easy way out.)  If I say, use something else....he can figure out what to use better than I can.  He CANNOT handle rejection or anyone disagreeing with him (that gets him stuck, and he won't drop it!)  I don't think he'd keep trying if at first he didn't succeed...if something is hard, he just refuses to try.  With math, if he doesn't know how to do something, he just doesn't do his math.  He DOES NOT adapt to other's needs and challenges and preferences.  I *think* he could analyze a situation...like me he's very analytical.  But, he won't take other people's perspective. 

 

What's funny to me about him having a problem with this is that I recall when he was around *I think* 18mo old (*might have been his first Christmas, around 7mos...but I think he was walking...so I'm going for the following Christmas), I remember a friend being astounded that my child could walk one way around her couch, realize it was blocked, and go around the room to enter the other way.  She told me most 18mo would have just cried that the way was blocked.  My child "problem solved" very early!!   Kinda confusing that he would be labelled as having a problem with this type of thinking!!

 

[geodob]

Though their are 2 opposite ways of thinking?

One way, is to think through something from the beginning to end conclusion.

The other way, is to start at the end conclusion, and then look back at how we arrived there?

Where the steps used, can also be seen as 'variables'.

 

They provide different ways to adjust to changes. Where the first way involves starting all over again.

While with the second way, we can look back to where the change occurred, and see how it effects the conclusion.

Though this is also called Pattern Thinking, where we can't see a pattern through a step by step process.

We need to see it as a whole.

 

 

[swellmomma]

I would look into the job aspect a little harder with him.  ds14 has not been diagnosed yet but everyone outside of the "experts" that has met him has asked if he has aspergers.  Anyway, last fall he wanted a job since he was freshly turned 14.  We went to the one place in town that hires that young, I helped him fill out the application form(which means he sat next to me while I filled it in but he had to tell me the answer for each space alloted0the form was very small and he can't write neatly that small).  Then I drove him to submit it  He was called for an interview and I was sure they would not hire him but they did.  Initially for cashier but they soon learned he could not cope with the busy meal times, could not make eye contact with customers, spoke down into his shirt in volumes no one could hear etc.  So instead they made him a diningroom person.  He cleans tables, empties the garbage, sweeps/mops the floor, picks up garbage in the parking lot, wipes trays etc.  He just gave his letter of resignation on Monday.  He found it very hard to keep up in school last year with his work schedule.  So he will finish out his 2 weeks and be done for now.  The life skills learned in his job, and in how to deal with a pay cheque (THAT is still a work in progress, but he did pay off his debts, paid a weekly stipend for gas for driving him to and from work, saved for a couple big items, buy a new pet and upgrade it's accomodations etc).  His first inclination is to blow it on crap but he is slowly learning to pay his bills first and then have money to spend on what he wants.  That will be a work in progress for years to come I think.

As for social skills, if his skills are such that he can not make friends, have even a simple exchange with someone etc then I would do what I could to find one.  If his skills are such that he has friends even if just a few, can get through most of the things in life in dealing with others but needs some fine tuning then I would not bother if he doesn't want it.  Basically the more severe the lack in social skills the more important to find a class imo

[bluedarling]

Though their are 2 opposite ways of thinking?

One way, is to think through something from the beginning to end conclusion.

The other way, is to start at the end conclusion, and then look back at how we arrived there?

Where the steps used, can also be seen as 'variables'.

 

They provide different ways to adjust to changes. Where the first way involves starting all over again.

While with the second way, we can look back to where the change occurred, and see how it effects the conclusion.

Though this is also called Pattern Thinking, where we can't see a pattern through a step by step process.

We need to see it as a whole.

 

I'm guessing this is related to being a visual-spatial learner?  sounds kinda similar.

[bluedarling]

I would look into the job aspect a little harder with him.  ds14 has not been diagnosed yet but everyone outside of the "experts" that has met him has asked if he has aspergers.  Anyway, last fall he wanted a job since he was freshly turned 14.  We went to the one place in town that hires that young, I helped him fill out the application form(which means he sat next to me while I filled it in but he had to tell me the answer for each space alloted0the form was very small and he can't write neatly that small).  Then I drove him to submit it  He was called for an interview and I was sure they would not hire him but they did.  Initially for cashier but they soon learned he could not cope with the busy meal times, could not make eye contact with customers, spoke down into his shirt in volumes no one could hear etc.  So instead they made him a diningroom person.  He cleans tables, empties the garbage, sweeps/mops the floor, picks up garbage in the parking lot, wipes trays etc.  He just gave his letter of resignation on Monday.  He found it very hard to keep up in school last year with his work schedule.  So he will finish out his 2 weeks and be done for now.  The life skills learned in his job, and in how to deal with a pay cheque (THAT is still a work in progress, but he did pay off his debts, paid a weekly stipend for gas for driving him to and from work, saved for a couple big items, buy a new pet and upgrade it's accomodations etc).  His first inclination is to blow it on crap but he is slowly learning to pay his bills first and then have money to spend on what he wants.  That will be a work in progress for years to come I think.

 

As for social skills, if his skills are such that he can not make friends, have even a simple exchange with someone etc then I would do what I could to find one.  If his skills are such that he has friends even if just a few, can get through most of the things in life in dealing with others but needs some fine tuning then I would not bother if he doesn't want it.  Basically the more severe the lack in social skills the more important to find a class imo

 

Well, getting him to go along with a job would be EASY!  He wants a job. :)   Unforunately, like your son found, I think mine would have a hard time doing that AND schoolwork.  But maybe if he took 4 real-credits + 2 job "credit-hour"?  I'll think about it.  I do like the idea of him working on money management & added social interactions (more opportunity for practice!)

 

On the social skills...gosh he's kinda in between!  It depends on what you mean by a friend...he talks with kids at church, but doesn't have the kind of friend that would come over for birthday cake (or otherwise socialize with him away from youth group.)  He can have a simple exchange, but there will be a lot of "huh?"  and "I dunno." Like your son, he won't speak audibly, and he'd freeze up a lot (definitely would not make a good cashier!!!)   This child has been in plays with me before, and done fine, though!  We didn't think he'd pull it off....would refuse to practice at home, inaudible in rehearsals/no emotion, but he reached an acceptable level during performance (no grand emotions, but relatively audible and acceptable for the parts he had...the mirror in Snow White doesn;'t have to show a great deal of emotion...his monotone worked!)  So...I think he's capable...its just really hard.