Grammar - What do they really need to know???

[Joyful_Journey]

I'm still knee deep in researching grammar programs for my dc (it feels like I've been doing this for months!), and I keep spinning in circles trying to decide which way to go. On the one hand, you have programs such as MCT and AG which appear to take (correct me if I'm wrong) a very straight forward approach to labeling parts of speech. Words are a noun, verb, adjective, preposition, etc. There seems to be less emphasis on needing to label the categories within those parts of speech (for instance, in the case of adjectives there are limiting, descriptive, etc.). In contrast, other programs such as Hake, GWG, VIE, DGP have the student learning the different types of pronouns, the different types of adjectives, etc. Do they really need to know this??? Is the approach taken by AG and MCT "enough"? I'm drawn to their approach, but that tiny voice in my head keeps questioning whether my dc would be missing something in grammar that is necessary in the end. Are my dc going to fail some standardized test in 8th or 9th grade because they couldn't pick out the indefinite pronoun in a sentence? Isn't it enough that they just recognize a word as a pronoun without having to specify which kind? I would really like to be spending more time on writing and literature for my middle school kids and not be slogging away at grammatical concepts that are not really important in the end.

 

Would love it if someone could shed some light on this!

 

Diane

[Danielle1746]

I am interested in the responses to this as well. Thanks for posting!

[Ecclecticmum]

Okay. Other than the simple pieces (nouns, verbs etc), the answer to your question is:

 

Not to be me.

 

Then everything should be okay :lol: Grammar is one area I really need to start from the beginning (well just past the nouns, verbs, adjectives anyway).

 

Specifically, things that may be very useful later on is how to use this ; properly. When and how to indent. The specifics of detailed paragraphing (the basics is when a new topic approaches, but what if you have a "bridge" mini sentence, whole seperate paragraph for that? or what if your writing naturally flows from one topic to the next without a clear divider, what then?)

 

Actually there is a lot of useful ideas for grammar/writing when just looking at the keyboard rofl. ~ ^ * <> are interesting examples. When to use ' instead of " is another. (What to do in this situation where you are within brackets? (then you decide to add another bracket within the bracket and the ending becomes )) do you just do the one bracket? do you add one of these lovely things instead {this} or [this] when doing the second lot of bracketing, and what are those lovely things in the first place?

 

Hard to believe I used to be a writer :lol: then again I had a brilliant, probably very overworked, proofreader & editor :laugh:

 

I'm just lucky I can type fast enough to get my thoughts down on paper, before they disappear out of my head and off into the wind. I tend to average 55-65 words a minute (sometimes more if I'm on a roll) and even then, I lose some thoughts before I can write them down here. :huh:

 

So, in other words, I know nothing about Grammar, according to signatures round here I have killed many kittens, and had the grammar police correct me on a number of threads (seriously, if I slow down for a second to think about the particular your you're ya'll your's or yours I need, BOOM thats the end of my thought, and I forget what I was going to write (I have done this a number of times, yes) and it's just best for your kids to be able to write a letter, novel or write on a forum, basically "be out" in the big world, and no-one coming back and pointing them to the dictionary or GrammarWiki. :mellow:

 

:leaving:

[Tanikit]

Do they need to know it for what purpose - I have no idea - maybe they just need to know it so they can teach their own kid it one day when they are homeschooling or maybe they will want to take advanced language arts courses at university.

 

I will probably teach it to my children simply because when we were in grade 7 we had a teacher who taught us grammar at a grade 12 level and we loved it - we were bored at school and this was something we had to actually think about (and the teacher who taught it was a bit crazy and taught us a lot of other weird things that were not suitable for 12 year olds) - it drove our high school teachers crazy as we were then correcting them in high school much of the time. I would seriously have to revise the grammar we did to be able to teach it to my children though so I didn't get terribly much use out of it.

 

I would stick to the basics for my 7 and 10 year old and if the 13 year old knows all the basics and you have the time and inclination then I would teach the more advanced things to her - letting the others listen in if necessary.

[8filltheheart]

I'm still knee deep in researching grammar programs for my dc (it feels like I've been doing this for months!), and I keep spinning in circles trying to decide which way to go. On the one hand, you have programs such as MCT and AG which appear to take (correct me if I'm wrong) a very straight forward approach to labeling parts of speech. Words are a noun, verb, adjective, preposition, etc. There seems to be less emphasis on needing to label the categories within those parts of speech (for instance, in the case of adjectives there are limiting, descriptive, etc.). In contrast, other programs such as Hake, GWG, VIE, DGP have the student learning the different types of pronouns, the different types of adjectives, etc. Do they really need to know this??? Is the approach taken by AG and MCT "enough"? I'm drawn to their approach, but that tiny voice in my head keeps questioning whether my dc would be missing something in grammar that is necessary in the end. Are my dc going to fail some standardized test in 8th or 9th grade because they couldn't pick out the indefinite pronoun in a sentence? Isn't it enough that they just recognize a word as a pronoun without having to specify which kind? I would really like to be spending more time on writing and literature for my middle school kids and not be slogging away at grammatical concepts that are not really important in the end.

 

Would love it if someone could shed some light on this!

 

Diane

 

From my perspective, the purpose behind grammar knowledge is for proper speaking and writing. Understanding parallel structure and keeping consistent tenses/perspectives, etc is the ultimate goal.

 

Simply being able to label parts of speech is a useless skill unless it translates into communicating well. (sort of like knowing how to basic addition and subtraction is not meaningful unless you know what to do with it IRL)

 

My kids never stop learning grammar b/c we are always evaluating their writing for grammar. We work through different books every yr that give a slightly different perspective. This yr my 8th and 11th graders went through Oops, who's Whose Grammar Book Is This Anyway. It didn't teach them anything they didn't already know; however, it did keep things that they let slip in their writing in their minds. For example, here is a simple sentence from the book that demonstrates sloppy grammar/writing that often occurs while writing but should be picked up on during proofreading:

"Earlier the committee could have, and ultimately did, avoid the issue."

 

And to the earlier poster......I would completely ignore posts that correct your grammar on the forum. Jeepers. They must not be typing while multi-tasking b/c who really pays that much attention? I'm a grammar Nazi with my kids and I type grammar mistakes all the time!! :)

[Ellie]

Some children seem to intuitively know when to use the correct pronoun, or the correct verb tense, or whatever, perhaps because their parents use correct grammar, or maybe because they read a great deal.

 

This is not true for most of us.

 

Some grammar study may be helpful, if for no other reason than the fact that it will be easier to correct their writing, because you can say, "Dear, you needed to use the objective pronoun instead of the subjective," and they know what you mean.

 

And by golly, I expect people to know the difference between you're/your and it's/its (and it isn't difficult to know which one). Correct word usage makes for better written communication. You can teach correct word usage by having your dc write and then correcting their writing; the problem is that many people don't make the corrections.

 

I don't believe that native speakers of English need to study their own grammar for 12 years, though.

[Walking-Iris]

I don't teach grammar every year. I do, however, think it is extremely important to know. Certain topics are reviewed in context each year. There are different schools of thought about grammar instruction. Some think knowing how to diagram a sentence is necessary, some teach the same concept in a different format. Some use foreign language, especially Latin, to teach grammar, some teach it within the context of reading and writing.

 

My dh is a GED instructor at the local CC. He comes home grumpy at times at how he has to teach people the basics of identifying parts of speech, or where to put a comma.

 

I honestly feel grammar is very important in our current online culture. People communicate by email, social media, blogs, text messaging etc. both informally and professionally, and if you can't spell correctly, or write your thoughts in a concise, grammatically correct manner, your ideas may be overlooked as unimportant.

 

A writer has to know their audience. You wouldn't want online "slanguage" and text-speak in a professional email. You wouldn't want to write in a chatty, informal manner in a scholarship essay. Chatty, informal writing is acceptable in a forum like this one, but not in some other instances. My dh asks his students to email assignments to him as if he were an employer or potential employer, as well as an instructor. It's amazing how many emails he has received with some form of "Heeeeey, what's up? Here's the homework" as the subject line. A solid education in grammar, spelling, writing and so on can really help your child be a successful adult.

 

Grammar helps a child, and a parent-teacher, to revise and edit any writing they do. When they understand some basic grammar terms and rules, it helps the revision process go smoothly. And knowing how to polish up your communication is important. Lack of grammar is not a good first impression in the adult world. Writing that is full of mistakes is difficult to read. If it's difficult to read, it may just get ignored.

 

It doesn't have to be perfect. My grammar and writing are hardly perfect. Even professional writers have editors. Editors who miss things. But a strong foundation is better than a weak one.

[Ecclecticmum]

Speaking along similar lines, I would say basic grammar for reasons people said above, but to concentrate on vocabulary and the expansion of.

 

Having a wide vocabulary, IMO is quite important, and is the one thing I am known to constantly be "teaching" (and for that matter, will probably be the one thing later on my kids start going "mooooommmmmmm" and rolling their eyes over).

 

Whether you are trying to describe something on a forum, or listening to a lecture on your life-long process of self-education, having the ability to choose between a number of word to fit the certain feel you want when communicating, or being able to understand the lecture when the professor starts dropping medical, scientific, educationese or plain jargon, will help in your or your child being able to experience the world in its absolute fullness......... or something. Caffeine, I need to go get some more caffeine. Anyway hopefully that was understandable, I have to go replace the glue my daughters requesting.

[EKS]

I think a powerful approach is to alternate MCT with Hake. MCT gives an excellent big picture understanding and Hake fills in the details. You could do MCT in the fall and Hake the rest of the year or simply alternate years.

[Joyful_Journey]

Oh please don't interpret this to mean that I want to shelve grammar! Although many folks stop pursuing grammar as a separate subject after 8th grade, we will continue to review it through the high school years as we proofread papers, correct verbal errors, etc. I think what I've been wrestling with is which approach is better. For instance, my daughter did AG this year, and she had to label the parts of speech as simply adjective, pronoun, etc. In contrast, my son was working through 5th grade GWG and needed to recognize and label the different types (i.e., limiting adjective, descriptive adjective). He kept wondering why his sister was able to just label a word as an adjective, pronoun, etc., but he was expected to slog through the specific types.

 

Thanks for all of the replies. Lots of great thoughts to consider!

 

Diane

[Walking-Iris]

I think it's good to review throughout the school years. Especially integrated within writing. My 4th grader did some EditorInChief, but most of his grammar this year has been in context to writing (papers, dictations and so on). I like to have grammar reference books around to use rather than workbook programs when there's a question. Woe Is I Jr, Writer's Express, Nitty Gritty Grammar are some favorites. The only grammar my ds has done as a program is Easy Grammar in 3rd grade. I haven't decided what to do next year. Maybe some KISS. I like the look of Killgallon, or maybe just same as this year. I may have him do a run through of Easy Grammar Plus one year.

 

But like Ellie said, some kids just "get" grammar. And some adults do too. I'm comfortable teaching it while we write because I'm strong in that subject as well. I think whatever approach you choose should be based on the child. If one needs more help or time, then you may teach it in more depth. But a child who is strong in it may find it tedious to keep doing it. That's where something like Latin or a foreign language as well as writing compositions would be better then workbook programs.

 

And as you noticed, different grammar books have different approaches and directions. Maybe if your kids are going to compare, you could find the same program for both of them.

 

I think the different types (limiting, descriptive, and so on) are helpful to understand in context. That's where something like Writer's Express comes in handy. You just refresh your memory on how to use that in your writing and move on.

[G5052]

I realize that there are all kinds of homeschoolers on this board, but if you are classically educating with a view towards taking upper-level foreign languages in high school, you need to have solid grammar early on.

 

While standardized tests will never ask you to identify an object pronoun in a sentence, knowing what one is will prevent some common writing errors. And if you intend to have yours pursue 4 years of foreign language in high school, they will absolutely need to know the grammar of their own language. Certainly grammar can be picked up as you learn the language, but it is much, much harder that way. Among the high school students I've taught Latin to, only those who had very rigorous grammar early on reach the stage of reading Latin literature fluently. My oldest teaches and tutors Latin locally and will be taking AP Latin next year. That would *not* have happened without rigorous grammar early on. He also writes better than some of the professors I work with, and rarely makes grammatical errors. When he asks for help with a sentence, I'm usually stumped too and have to research it with him.

 

My two cents...

[Walking-Iris]

I don't think any posters in this thread were downplaying the importance of grammar. Now some people put more emphasis on Latin than others, but Latin isn't really what this thread is about. (Nor do all homeschoolers consider Latin one of the 3 r's---and that is perfectly fine.)

 

Also plenty of people take foreign language in high school without extensive, Latin centered grammar before high school. And IME basic English grammar wasn't covered in high school foreign language class. (At least not in mine). That was reviewed in English class. But I have no memories of basic grammar being discussed in high school English. If it was reviewed at all, it was in context to revising/editing papers. High school English was about literature and writing. College English was about literature and writing.

 

Grammar is important, but there are many approaches to covering it.

[8filltheheart]

Here's my grammar vent of the day...... :)

 

I personally believe that Americans have an incredibly poor understanding of English grammar. The number of mistakes that occur in print media makes me wonder how well editors understand grammar. I have a strong (self) educational background in grammar, but I still have to dig out reference materials or look things up online all the time while working with my kids on editing their writing. I will never be confident enough to say that I speak well/write well/proofread well so I'm finished with needing grammar studies. ;) The nuances of correct construction/punctuation for various phrases/word choices slip by me quite a bit even now when grading writing. It is why books like Oops, whose grammar book is it anyway are so valuable in our continuing English education beyond the simple mastery of parts of speech (parts of speech are not the end all-be all of grammar education.)

 

A sad example of the state of English grammar is when my kids came home from a meeting a couple of days ago where they were creating a skit. They told me that they had to make the deliberate decision to change the line "It is I" to "It's me" b/c no one could accept that "I" sounded like the correct form. :p

 

While not a direct example to grammar, John Branyan's rendition of the Three Little Pigs immediately comes to mind. English grammar has gone to the wayside along with English vocabulary. The vast majority (of at least American) English speakers have lost both.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxoUUbMii7Q

[Laura Corin]

And if you intend to have yours pursue 4 years of foreign language in high school, they will absolutely need to know the grammar of their own language. Certainly grammar can be picked up as you learn the language, but it is much, much harder that way.

 

 

I actually think it is the opposite: it's much easier to learn a foreign language's grammar than that of your native language - one has distance from it. I learned almost no English grammar but found the grammar of Latin and French easy to learn. I ended up doing a degree in French.

 

Laura