Does this bother anyone else?

[Kate CA]

I cannot get over the Mary Winkler case. She now has custody of her three daughters after killing their father. This is absolutely stunning to me.

 

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,397361,00.html

 

I know she said he was abusive, and maybe he truly was, but it is her word against a dead person. She killed him - I just don't get it. Anyone have any insight here?

[Margo out of lurking]

I hadn't heard that. Unbelievable. (But I believe you, you kwim!) Other than the obvious issues with the girls, how sickening for his family to have to turn those girls over to the woman who murdered their son.

 

 

What's wrong with the judge, I wonder....

[LizzyBee]

I cannot get over the Mary Winkler case. She now has custody of her three daughters after killing their father. This is absolutely stunning to me.

 

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,397361,00.html

 

I know she said he was abusive, and maybe he truly was, but it is her word against a dead person. She killed him - I just don't get it. Anyone have any insight here?

 

Not too long ago, I was searching the internet trying to find out the outcome of the custody case, but I couldn't find anything. I wonder how the children feel about it. At one point, I read that her oldest dd didn't want to see her.

[Erica in PA]

Yes, I just saw that today. It doesn't seem right to me. I just hope for the children's sake that the jury was correct in their findings about her and about that case, and that she isn't as guilty as she appears to be. :confused:

 

Erica

[Michelle T]

I vaguely remember at the time this case was going on, she had been writing bad checks, or some such similar financial stuff that her husband had found out about. Plus, didn't she cut the phone line before shooting her husband while he was in bed?

 

Maybe she really was abused, and maybe she was only fighting back in the only way she could figure out. Or maybe justice really was not served in this case.

 

Either way, I can't imagine how it's good for her girls.

Michelle T

[fosterisacoolcat]

It is hard to say what anyone of us would be pushed to during times of extreme fear/isolation/abuse. I hope her kids are in therapy and the family has support.

[DB in NJ]

I heard a report on this today. A judge (not the judge on the case, but a judge who was a guest on the show I was watching) said that while some records are under seal, she knew that the paternal grandparents, who had custody of the kids while the mother was serving time, agreed to the new custody arrangement.

 

She also said that Mary Winkler spent 60 days in a psychiatric or some such mental institution. That's more than 12 days...

 

Also, she was charged with first-degree murder. A jury found her guilty of voluntary manslaughter, quite a less substantial charge.

 

My point? There are obviously facts that we are unaware of. Either that or the jury was wrong, the doctors were wrong, and paternal grandparents are wrong, and the custody judge is wrong. I'm going with the we don't have all the facts thing.

[Kate CA]

I'm going with the we don't have all the facts thing.

 

Yes, I totally agree about this and I am sure this is the case, but I still have to wonder a few things - does abuse (if there truly was abuse) excuse deliberate killing? How can those poor children grow up knowing their mother killed their father? It is the children I feel sick for.

[fosterisacoolcat]

Yes, I totally agree about this and I am sure this is the case, but I still have to wonder a few things - does abuse (if there truly was abuse) excuse deliberate killing? How can those poor children grow up knowing their mother killed their father? It is the children I feel sick for.

 

I think it could be argued that the level of brainwashing an abused women receives and the isolation she feels plays into how something like this happens. If a women is told, repeatedly, that she will be killed or that her children will be killed is she tries to leave, she would most likely believe the abuser. She has no reason to believe that he WONT hurt her, he has made that point perfectly clear. An abused woman does not feel she is able to leave. He will find her and kill her and she might feel pushed to an extreme to save herself and/or her family.

[Kelli in TN]

 

My point? There are obviously facts that we are unaware of. Either that or the jury was wrong, the doctors were wrong, and paternal grandparents are wrong, and the custody judge is wrong. I'm going with the we don't have all the facts thing.

 

Oh my. No, I don't think people have the facts.

 

If the truth had won the day she would be in prison right now.

 

Sometimes the truth is the one thing that does not come to court.

 

I think the prosecutor probably has some regrets that he was not stronger in some areas. He was outlawyered. The defense did their job well and their job is to get their client free, guilt or innocence is irrelevant.

 

It is just a sad story all around. He may have been abusive but even an abusive husband deserves a trial, a lawyer and jury before he is executed.

[phathui5]

That's so sad all around. I too, can't imagine growing up living with my mother after she had killed my father.

[OnTheBrink]

I think it could be argued that the level of brainwashing an abused women receives and the isolation she feels plays into how something like this happens. If a women is told, repeatedly, that she will be killed or that her children will be killed is she tries to leave, she would most likely believe the abuser. She has no reason to believe that he WONT hurt her, he has made that point perfectly clear. An abused woman does not feel she is able to leave. He will find her and kill her and she might feel pushed to an extreme to save herself and/or her family.

 

 

You're right. My life was threatened repeatedly by my EX. I was told I was stupid, ugly, worthless, had finances withheld from me, was isolated from people and because of all that, I had a restraining order served against EX before divorce papers were served. Were there times I thought of killing him, just to get out from under his tyranny? Absolutely. Absolutely. I don't know what pushed Mary Winkler over the edge, but I know that I at least saw the edge. Maybe it was the support my church gave me, maybe I'm just a stronger person than she is, I don't know. But I can tell you, an abused woman will think about, even if only in fantasy, killing her abuser.

 

Does this justify her murdering her husband? NO, just as I would not have been justified in snuffing out mine, had I chosen to do that. But, unless you've been there, it's very difficult to imagine being in the position where you seriously think about it. And, I also think there's more to this case than what's been made public.

[LaMere Academy]

I remember the case, but never paid very much attention to it.

I bet his parents were so upset that she picked up their children from them. Praying for them tonight.

[LaMere Academy]

You're right. My life was threatened repeatedly by my EX. I was told I was stupid, ugly, worthless, had finances withheld from me, was isolated from people and because of all that, I had a restraining order served against EX before divorce papers were served. Were there times I thought of killing him, just to get out from under his tyranny? Absolutely. Absolutely. I don't know what pushed Mary Winkler over the edge, but I know that I at least saw the edge. Maybe it was the support my church gave me, maybe I'm just a stronger person than she is, I don't know. But I can tell you, an abused woman will think about, even if only in fantasy, killing her abuser.

 

Does this justify her murdering her husband? NO, just as I would not have been justified in snuffing out mine, had I chosen to do that. But, unless you've been there, it's very difficult to imagine being in the position where you seriously think about it. And, I also think there's more to this case than what's been made public.

hugs to you Michelle. I'm so sorry you went through that.

[DB in NJ]

I remember the case, but never paid very much attention to it.

I bet his parents were so upset that she picked up their children from them. Praying for them tonight.

 

But the report I heard said the parents agreed to her getting custody of the kids. I'm sure they're upset -- my soul, who wouldn't be? But they agreed to it??? Obviously, we don't know all there is to know about this strange case. :confused:

[Kelli in TN]

But the report I heard said the parents agreed to her getting custody of the kids. I'm sure they're upset -- my soul, who wouldn't be? But they agreed to it??? Obviously, we don't know all there is to know about this strange case. :confused:

 

 

 

Hmm, I had not heard that. I will check our local paper tomorrow, our local paper usually includes things that the national papers don't. People around here are pretty interested in the case.

 

I know they fought her pretty hard for quite awhile. I wonder what would cause a turnaround.

[Margo out of lurking]

I wonder what would cause a turnaround.

 

Many years of working for attorneys jaded me, and this is purely speculation, of course. Perhaps she agreed to give the g-parents some sort of visitation in exchange for publicly supporting the new custody arrangement.

[GSMP]

I don't want to get slammed for this and I am only saying this in the hope that it will make you realize there are some cases that are so bad....we don't know. We just don't know the desperation some women are in hence the battered spouse syndrome.....having been there......

 

I wouldn't have blamed my mother for killing my stepfather. Not one bit. Would it have been right? No. Emphatically NO....but I can see it happening.

Watching him beat 5 babies out of her to the point she would miscarry and knowing he buried two of them.....No....I can see someone going over the edge.

 

He was her third husband and she seemed to get sucked into relationships with abusive men...it was a cycle. But I also know what her childhood was like.

 

I am very careful about saying what I think....... especially when it comes to something like this. Were I on the jury....It would have taken quite a bit for me to let her off on a lesser charge.

 

One would like to think the judge really knew what he was doing and that part of the custody agreement is that they all remain in counseling and are watched closely.

 

Some women are able to get out from under this and some are not....it could be for reasons of lack of support, their own abused background as a child and the threat of one of their own children being hurt.

 

I don't know why a judge would give the children back to her.....I can only think that it must be due to something no one has disclosed.....that or he was an idiot.

[Suzanne in ABQ]

Were the children abused as well? If so, then this outcome makes perfect sense to me

 

My father used to beat up my mother, every single night. He'd come home from work and start drinking bourbon (he drank about 4 gallons of the stuff a week). After a tense dinner (which frequently included dishes being thrown across the room), he'd pass out in his chair. After we'd all gone to bed, he'd wake up, and we'd hear him stumbling down the hall, holding on to both walls to keep from falling over. Then, we'd hear him wake up our mom and there'd be yelling, and the sound of her being thrown around the room. It was a horrible situation, made worse because she tried to protect us from it (as if we couldn't hear her cries, or see her bruises). Finally, she "came out", and let us in on the secret. Actually, she called out to me one night, and I went out into the kitchen to see her clothes torn in shreds at her feet, my father holding a chair up with the legs pointed at my mother, and my mother holding a kitchen knife. I'll never forget the sound of her voice, calling "Suzanne!" or the look on her face as she stood there, naked, holding the knife at my father. And, I'll never forget my father, snearing, "Look at your mother, holding a knife on me!"

 

Things changed after that. My mother got very brave. I've never known a stronger woman, and she's only 5 feet tall! We (my brothers and I) rallied around her in support to get him the H#LL out of the house. We would have done anything to protect her, no matter what she had done to protect herself and us. No one was hurt with that knife, and there was no more violence after that night, but things could have gone much differently. My mom got a restraining order, and he was forced to leave the house. Mom couldn't afford a decent lawyer, so we ended up with hardly any money. But, we had each other, and HE wasn't in our lives (unless we wanted him to be). We weren't the least bit angry at our mother for protecting herself, and us, from that tyrant.

 

I don't know anything about this case. I try to avoid reading about these cases because they're upsetting to me. But, if this man was as bad as my father (and it sounds like he was worse), and if he abused her children as well as her, and she didn't see any other way out because of fear (the knowledge that he would come after her and/or the children), then it makes sense to me that the jury would reduce her crime, and that the children's grandparents (who knew their son, and all he was doing) would support her, and that the children themselves would continue to love her and find peace in a house filled with love, rather than full of fear and pain.

 

No one here heard the facts. No one here lived her life, or walked her walk, or felt her fear, or loved her children so dearly. No one here even knows what happened! No one here can stand in judgment of this woman.

[Suzanne in ABQ]

Yes, and the facts concerning the children would have been sealed, to protect their privacy.

[Mom to Aly]

I heard a report on this today. A judge (not the judge on the case, but a judge who was a guest on the show I was watching) said that while some records are under seal, she knew that the paternal grandparents, who had custody of the kids while the mother was serving time, agreed to the new custody arrangement.

 

She also said that Mary Winkler spent 60 days in a psychiatric or some such mental institution. That's more than 12 days...

 

Also, she was charged with first-degree murder. A jury found her guilty of voluntary manslaughter, quite a less substantial charge.

 

My point? There are obviously facts that we are unaware of. Either that or the jury was wrong, the doctors were wrong, and paternal grandparents are wrong, and the custody judge is wrong. I'm going with the we don't have all the facts thing.

 

:iagree: I agree--We don't know all the circumstances, and I am sure there is a lot to this we won't ever know. I am willing to trust that justice was served, especially if the paternal grandparents are OK with this, and hope that the mother and children can all recover and go on to live normal lives.

[kaylk in tx]

unless you've lived it (i too had an abusive x), you cannot understand what it does to a person's mind. the pattern of thought is so skewed from normal that you literally cannot make rational decisions about how to get out of the situation. it took me years before i was able to see a truck like his without getting scared. it took me years before i was able to trust another man as anything other than a friend. that's why these cases are so difficult for people to understand... they can't because they haven't walked that path. at least the jury gets to hear all the gruesome details and get a glimpse into the h*ll that was going on.

[Kelli in TN]

I am going to drop it after this.....

 

She was check kiting. She was committing fraud at local banks. She was given a time limit to clear the checks or her husband would be called. On the morning of the day that the banks were going to contact her husband about the thousands of dollars of bad checks she wrote, she shot him in the back, wiped the blood from his mouth with a corner of the sheet and when he said "Why?" answered "I'm sorry, Honey.". She noted the bedside telephone was within his reach and so she took a moment to unplug it. Then she left him there to bleed to death.

 

The story changed somewhat during the media circus. She had him getting up and abusing a daughter and going back to bed in her revised story. In the original story he was asleep in the bed when she aimed that gun at his back. Forensic evidence leaned towards him having never gotten up. The most curious piece of evidence is the amount of urine in his bladder at the time of death. If you wake up to abuse your daughter in the early morning hours and your bladder is very, very full don't you think you might stop off at the bathroom to relieve it? Would you go back to bed that uncomfortable?

 

I will say, if I ever want to shoot someone Steve Farese will be my number one choice for defense attorney.

[Jugglin'5]

This reminds me of the Price Daniel case in Texas. His wife got off because of his supposed abuse, which may very well have occurred, but she had an excellent attorney in "Racehorse" Haynes. Who knows what really happened? I tend to believe that justice was not served in that case either.

[Michelle T]

I am going to drop it after this.....

 

She was check kiting. She was committing fraud at local banks. She was given a time limit to clear the checks or her husband would be called. On the morning of the day that the banks were going to contact her husband about the thousands of dollars of bad checks she wrote, she shot him in the back, wiped the blood from his mouth with a corner of the sheet and when he said "Why?" answered "I'm sorry, Honey.". She noted the bedside telephone was within his reach and so she took a moment to unplug it. Then she left him there to bleed to death.

 

The story changed somewhat during the media circus. She had him getting up and abusing a daughter and going back to bed in her revised story. In the original story he was asleep in the bed when she aimed that gun at his back. Forensic evidence leaned towards him having never gotten up. The most curious piece of evidence is the amount of urine in his bladder at the time of death. If you wake up to abuse your daughter in the early morning hours and your bladder is very, very full don't you think you might stop off at the bathroom to relieve it? Would you go back to bed that uncomfortable?

 

I will say, if I ever want to shoot someone Steve Farese will be my number one choice for defense attorney.

 

 

IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, I am extremely skeptical about the abused wife scenario. I think this lady was just lucky enough to get away with murder, due to a good lawyer, and most likely, her own good acting skills in convincing a jury that she was a poor, beaten wife.

 

As I recall, prior to her court appearance, there was never any reason to believe any sort of abuse was going on in this family, other than her abuse of the bank/checking system.

 

Reminds me of the OJ case. There are plenty of times when people get off free and easy due to good lawyers, a convenient excuse that might not even apply to them (racism, abuse, too many Twinkies) and a jury that will believe anything.

Michelle T

[Danestress]

I doubt the judge had any choice. The paternal grandparents filed a case to terminate Mary Winkler's parental rights so that they could raise the children. In fact, they tried to eliminate supervised visitation (this is what I learned just from an article or two online). I'm not sure where someone read that the grandparents agreed to this arrangement. That's contrary to what I am reading.

 

In standard when terminating parental rights is "fitness." It think that's the case in every state, as a matter of constitutional law. The way to terminate is to prove that a parent is unfit. Some states have a statutory presumption of unfitness when the parents has been convicted of first degree murder of the other parent. Manslaughter won't cut it, especially in a case like there where, by all accounts, the mother has been a caring, loving mother who took good care of her girls. I don't know about Tennessee, but I doubt many states make such a presumption in the case of manslaughter.

 

Apparently the supervised visitation went well. And by all accounts, Mary Winkler was a good mother - loved her daughters and took good care of them. So the judge doesn't have the legal power to say "well, I think the girls are better off with the grandparents." First he has to find unfitness. He can't just use a "better off" standard. Lots of kids would be "better off" being raised by their grandparents rather than their parents. But the law protects the rights of parents to raise their own children, even if there are other willing parties who might do a better job of it.

 

It does seem sort of hard in this case. I really think Mary Winkler just flat murdered her husband, and nothing she said (that I know about) in trial came clase to justifying murder. So I'm sad she was convicted of manslaughter and released after just seven months. It doesn't seem right.

 

But given the jury verdict, I think this was the predictable outcome of the custody case, and I suspect that the grandparent's attorneys had already told them that it was the likely outcome and not to get their hopes up.