High School credit hours - please explain

[sheryl]

Well, I get the "main" idea that to receive a 1 credit hour the student needs to complete the subject. I don't get the specifics. High school credits are earned for math, science, history, English, foreign language, elective. Taking science and English as an example, is there a set amount of time each day? And, for how many days? That is, to earn 1 credit hour.... I've heard you need to "prove" your child spent so much time on a subject. Also, there are programs to keep track of what? Why? Going back to the example - if my dd could finish her year-long science (180 day school calendar) in 3-4 months, do I still assign a credit? Same for English - if she could finish in 7 months. If not, why? I need some knowledgeable person to set me straight in this. Thanks.

[PeterPan]

Lee Binz has some really good little booklets on this in the kindle section of amazon ($3-ish). http://www.amazon.co...aps,224 Also, she does free workshops pretty regularly. You might get on her list. She gives away free kindle books pretty frequently too. She just had another one for free a couple days ago.

 

The stuff she says is pretty much how it was where I worked. Credit is material covered, units are time spent. Usually (or at least where I worked) they're usually asking for units, not credits, and there's the assumption that when schools put credits that they in fact correlate to units. Nobody is asking you to count MINUTES, but there's just that general thing of she worked on it 5 days a week for a year (1 credit/unit), she did it two days a week for a year (1/2 credit/unit), 5 days a week for a semester (1/2 credit/unit).

 

When you have a dc finishing curriculum early, the question is whether they spent the time. We had it happen where this mom sent in the transcript and said the boy did this astounding amount of material in 2 years. Ok, maybe he did. But maybe the math book was too easy for his level. Unit = time spent. So their job was to stop and say wow, he's blowing through this, time to add in a supplement. That's totally different from a dc who has a very pre-planned curriculum where everything is in chunks and they work double time a couple days a week to finish early. You could see that happening, say with the BJU videos. My friend will tell me her kids are doing double lessons. Blows my mind, because for us double lessons would be really hard. In their structure, watching the video and doing the associated work, it works out.

 

The easiest way to handle that, for subjects where it is pre-defined, is simply to make a syllabus at the beginning of the year where the steps are laid out. For instance last night I laid out my dd's PE syllabus. 60 sessions of walking 2 miles with a pedometer or the walking video, 60 sessions (1 hour chunks) logging other activities (golf, tennis, sport rule study, etc.). That gives her 120 hours, and she gets 1 credit/unit on the transcript for that. Whether that takes her 1 year or 4, the checklist is there, letting her log and accumulate her time to earn her unit. No walking 2 miles does not take an hour. But in a normal school setting they would get dressed (which she will), go to the track (which she will), walk, then walk back and change again. They might also throw in some sit-ups. But that's how they get a class period. Like I said, nobody is going to breathe down your neck on this and tell you to count minutes. It's sorta common sense. Reasonable chunks.

 

If she wants to do her science in one semester instead of two, that's perfectly fine. People do summer school too (a semester in a month!). It's a perfectly valid way of doing things. Put in the time. If the curriculum has predetermined chunks and she puts in the time, she has done it. In general though you're expecting to see double time if she's supposedly working double pace. So instead of basically an hour a day, you'd expect her to be putting in basically 2 hours a day. Not precise to the minutes, not quibbling over 40 vs. 45 vs. 50. But there's a big gap between that and oh yeah, I put in 20 min. and my science is done, so I think I'll do double lessons. ;)

 

They're not going to breathe down your back or ask for minutes. Just use general sense. Like I said, Lee Binz's explanations are very good, and she tells a lot of practical stories to go with them to explore the interesting situations homeschoolers come up with. There's a ton you can access through her site for free, especially when you sign up for her online workshops. Check it out. :)

[sheryl]

E, I will need to read and reread this. It seems I do get a different answer each time. So, let's take that example of BJU or MUS Algebra I to expand this thought. I don't remember the number of lessons for BJU for the year - say, 160. When you factor in tests, etc. that would be "1" of something (lesson or the few tests) a day. Let's say it took her 30 minutes to complete a test "or" one of the easier daily lessons which are usually in the beginning of the as review. Would I have her "do" more math until she reaches an hour? After she finished her test? I did try that website, but was not able to access it. Conversely, if dd took 90 min to complete a harder test/lesson, as the year progresses, do I still count that as 1 hour?

[PeterPan]

Sheryl, you're correct in guessing that it's not a "fair" system. If the lesson takes her 3 hours, well that happens. In a regular math class you'd have a class period (say 40-50 min) and the assumption of a certain amount of homework. There would be a significant chunk of time lost to attendance, drills, blah blah, and of course days to parties, etc. So you end up with this *range* of what you'd sort of expect in a homeschool environment. (120-150 hours normal, 180=honors)

 

With that test, what you're exactly seeing is the way it would be structured in a school environment. BJU specifically makes the first lesson in each chapter short so that it can be introduced following the test. So that's where you come in with your syllabus or tallying and realize that's happening.

 

If the lessons normally take her a normal amount of time (say 40 min. by the time she reads the lesson, does the problems, does the work that would normally be assigned as homework, etc.), then she has done math for the day. And if she completes the math in that fashion, she did it. If she's FLYING through the lessons and they're only taking her 20 minutes, then that's where you stop and you go ok, I have an exceptional student, time to add in the extra materials BJU sells. They have a Student Activities workbook that has extension material on the topics. It's the kind of thing you hand gifted students who are going through the material very quickly. I can't get to ALL of it with my dd, but I like what we do get to and recommend it for students in that position. A TT algebra 1 lesson takes my dd 25-30 min. That's not enough time spent. It takes some kids 40-90 min. Takes my kid 25-30 min, so then I kick it up with 10-15 min. of BJU math on the side here and there.

 

I'm not saying quibble or fret over 40 vs. 60. It's not like that. But in the situation you mentioned with the tests, I think if you look in the tm you'll see where it mentions that they intended for you to start the next chapter after the test. That's why both those lessons are light. You're not crazy. :)

[Lori D.]

Well, I get the "main" idea that to receive a 1 credit hour the student needs to complete the subject. I don't get the specifics. High school credits are earned for math, science, history, English, foreign language, elective. Taking science and English as an example, is there a set amount of time each day? And, for how many days? That is, to earn 1 credit hour.... I've heard you need to "prove" your child spent so much time on a subject. Also, there are programs to keep track of what? Why? Going back to the example - if my dd could finish her year-long science (180 day school calendar) in 3-4 months, do I still assign a credit? Same for English - if she could finish in 7 months. If not, why? I need some knowledgeable person to set me straight in this. Thanks.

 

 

Hi Sheryl!

Alas... Because every school system is different, and because different states have different requirements, there is no national standard or any set-in-stone rules that anyone is going to be able to point you to when it comes to "what equals a credit".

 

I personally find it most helpful to think about credits in terms of the *university*:

- what should credits look like in our homeschool that will best prepare my students for possibly attending a university

- of the universities my students may end up attending, what are the universities' expectations about what a credit will look like

 

 

re: time and credits

Time is not the only way to count a credit; it just gives you a balllpark way of estimating if you are covering a reasonable amount of material and the right level of difficulty of material -- especially if you create some of your own courses. In addition, number of hours really helps a university accept your course as legitimate, and not "padding" of the transcript, as OhElizabeth suggested in one of her posts in this thread.

 

 

One Carnegie credit is considered to be 120 hours of classroom contact (although, it is assumed there are additional hours of work put in outside of class). Schools count a credit as 180 hours (for the 180 days in a typical school year. Many homeschoolers use these hour amounts as their minimum and maximum hours for counting a credit, and shoot for the average, of 150 hours.

 

1.00 credit = 120-180 hours (average = 150 hours)

0.50 credit = 60-90 hours (average = 75 hours)

0.25 credit = 30-45 hours (average = 37.5 hours)

 

However, different subjects will require less or more time. English courses, because of the extra time it takes for thoughtful / analytical reading and to accomplish the multi-step process of writing, may very well take take 150-180 hours. Due to labs and studying new terminology, Science may also take longer. In contrast, a required 0.5 Economics or Health course, using standard high school materials, may not even take the "minimum" 60 hours. But if the material is completed satisfactorily and it is what is typically considered 0.5 credit -- great! You're good! :)

 

If your student finishes a subject 2-4 weeks early, then great! I wouldn't worry about it; your student is a speedy and diligent worker. :)

 

However, if your student is completing a Science course in just 3-4 months (unless consisently doubling up lessons/work to finish early on purpose), there's a good chance that the student is using materials well below their ability. If the materials were of standard high school level, of course, grant the full credit -- but now it's time to up the level of the material in order to allow real learning to occur.

 

- Consider using a college-level science text and call it an honors science course.

- Or have your student either take an AP science course or use AP course materials and take the AP test at the end of the year.

- Or consider more challenging science classes through dual enrollment at the local community college or university; etc.

 

Or, if your student finishes English 2 months early, again, I'd look at the materials used -- the materials may not be advanced enough for your student. Or, was it all just reading of books, but no time spent in engagement through discussion, analysis / questions, and writing? If so, then use those last two months to either go back and do some deeper thinking and writing about works covered, or select an additional work to cover deeply for the last 2 months.

 

I find it helpful to do an online search of different homeschool English programs and look at the table of contents to see how many works are covered, types of assignments, and how much work is done with each. A google search of "high school honors English syllabus" also helps for comparison (because, if your student is finishing early, likely he/she is working at a higher level).

 

 

re: tracking programs and "proving" hours

Some states require homeschoolers to prove they schooled for so many hours in order to meet that state's legal requirements for homeschooling. Some homeschoolers choose to work under an "umbrella" school to help them count credits, which often includes tracking hours. A tracking program makes it easier for these homeschoolers to keep a tally of hours completed. However, tracking software can also be helpful for those homeschooling high schoolers, as it allows you to enter work done, and then the program can create a transcript or other records for you out of your entries.

 

Universities will not ask you to "prove" hours; but they may require course descriptions, which can easily be created from the data entered in a tracking program. That's where people (like Regentrude's post) are able to prove their students did legit coursework by listing the materials used, assignments and projects, etc.

 

 

BEST of luck as you start wearing that administrator hat that goes along with homeschooling high school! Warmest regards, Lori D. [wearing my homeschool administrator hat ----> :hat: ]

[regentrude]

E, I will need to read and reread this. It seems I do get a different answer each time. So, let's take that example of BJU or MUS Algebra I to expand this thought. I don't remember the number of lessons for BJU for the year - say, 160. When you factor in tests, etc. that would be "1" of something (lesson or the few tests) a day. Let's say it took her 30 minutes to complete a test "or" one of the easier daily lessons which are usually in the beginning of the as review. Would I have her "do" more math until she reaches an hour? After she finished her test? I did try that website, but was not able to access it. Conversely, if dd took 90 min to complete a harder test/lesson, as the year progresses, do I still count that as 1 hour?

 

For subjects like math it is easy, because there is a specific "canon" of material that is commonly considered "algebra 1" and assembled in one textbook. You simply give credit when the book is completed, because the stduent has mastered what is understood as "algebra 1" course. Whether that takes 160 hours or only 80 does not matter. You would not give two credits for algebra 1 if the student took twice as long, and you would not give only half a credit if the student grasped the material very quickly.

the same goes for other subjects that rely on a standard textbook: you can complete the science text for, say "highschool biology", and that is a credit.

 

Counting hours is a useful guidance for determining whether a self designed class that uses many different resources is credit worthy - but even there, it will vary. You may have a very fast reader, for example, who completes an impressive reading list that goes beyond any typical high school class in a very short time.

[PeterPan]

Btw, to be clear, my dd pushes the low end of time spent on things. Bright IQ, but low processing speed. If we spent tit for tat, minutes and hours and were picky about counting it, she'd be utterly worn out. I have to strike a balance on level, what she can do quickly, when she's putting in enough and when she's getting worn out. NO ONE says you have to wear the dc out or count minutes. It's just a general pattern of work and time spent. You'll find it. If you're changing some things this year, you'll probably have to just get into them and see how it goes.

 

What I'm doing for my more undefined things (PE, history, lit, etc.) is making syllabi with requirements. On science I put time estimates for things, because we're using half videos, half piles of books. So I assigned time values to books based on what I know of her reading speed, how hard the material is, etc. I was pretty generous, because frankly as reading gets harder, people slow down. (All books this thick, 4 hours, all books that thick, 5 hours. Seriously. Don't overthink this.) So I'm NOT being nitpicky to the minute, and no one wants you to be. Again, this is where I thought Binz's explanations were very common sense and right on for most people. Check out her stuff. Be calm, be confident. No one is going to interrogate you on this. :)

[PeterPan]

Regentrude, in theory that's correct, but if you put down something really odd on the transcript (like saying you did 4 years of math in 2 years), the university will ask questions. They really do mean time spent (if they ask for units), and there are homeschoolers doing the lightest thing out there, saying their kid is advanced, that he blew through all these levels, blah blah. And that's where you dig and realize they used a very light curriculum or didn't use the supplements intended for gifted students. That's not the norm on *this* board, but weird stuff is out there. But yes, in general if an average kid picks up an average math book and does the math, you just put the one on the transcript and don't blink an eye.

[Candid]

I think you are dancing around the concept of Carnegie units which are a way of taking hours studying and making a credit. You will find a lot of discussion on this board about this and not a lot of agreement.

 

Here's what I've posted in the past: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/388123-what-do-you-need-for-high-school/?do=findComment&comment=3946276 and here: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/412431-course-description-template-plus-questions/page__?do=findComment&comment=4162995

 

Read those threads for more detail. Here's another: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/388746-what-is-an-english-credit/

 

I think as a homeschooler you are much wiser to set your credits based on coverage.

[regentrude]

As for tracking: I use a simple excel spreadsheet with columns for subjects and rows for days and have it programmed to add up time per day and time per subject. very useful and easy to handle. This allows us to not work on a specific schedule. My kdis spend however much time they want on whatever subject they want each day- it will average out.

So, they may complete an entire credit in 3-4 months because they go on binges and work several hours on history while doing no science - and then spend more time on science the next semester. By keeping track of the hours spent/progress in the textbook, I know when I can call it "done".

[Susie in CA]

Regentrude, a question for you.

 

Do you add in hours you spend listening to Teaching Company lectures etc. or only the 5 hours or so that your children work in the mornings?

 

Thanks, I am going to enter the highschool years this fall and am thinking about these issues a lot.

[Lori D.]

Regentrude, a question for you.

 

Do you add in hours you spend listening to Teaching Company lectures etc. or only the 5 hours or so that your children work in the mornings?

 

Thanks, I am going to enter the highschool years this fall and am thinking about these issues a lot.

 

 

 

Not Regentrude, and it's not History, BUT... When we used TC's Economics lecture series, I *did* count the 18 hours of lectures because I had DSs practice taking notes from a lecture, and then I wrote up a short quiz for each lecture so they could also practice studying from their notes. Also, because the TC course was where the bulk of our material for the Economics 0.5 credit came from.

[regentrude]

Do you add in hours you spend listening to Teaching Company lectures etc. or only the 5 hours or so that your children work in the mornings?

 

TC lectures are included in the things my kids can do during their daily school hours. DS often begins the day with a lecture because that helps him put his brain into gear.

Time spent listening to a TC lecture is counted for school. Whether it happens during the designated school hours, or in the car during summer vacation (excellent way to get a head start on the following school year's history!).

If they were in public school, they would listen to the teacher lecture during class. If they were in college, they would attend lectures. So sure, lectures=school.

[J-rap]

I never counted hours, just material covered. So if an Algebra I textbook takes two years to cover, I still give just one credit. If my child completed the whole book in 4 months, I'd still give one credit.

 

We have a rather unique situation in our town where we can choose to transfer homeschool credits to the public high school and get a degree from the high school. However, I need to list hours on the transcript. I just list the required hours, no matter how long it took for my child to complete it. Because if they complete an Algegra I text in 4 months but did absolutely everything the ps would cover in a school year, then I'm going to put 120 hours even if she was able to do it in 60 hours. She deserves 1 credit, not 1/2. My justification? She did 120 hours' worth of work.

 

Also, I don't list courses by grades. So if my daughter took two years to complete Algebra II, I don't list each grade with the classes she took during that year. I simply list Algebra II, 1 credit. No grade mentioned. No one needs to know how long it took to complete it.

 

For subjects that are more subjective as far as how much to do to count as a full credit vs. half-credit. Well, I just kind of got the hang of it. If a course is full with lots of hard work and assignments to show for it and it's worked on all year, I'll usually give a full credit, though not always.

 

I'm much more laid back about how I do this than others, and others may disagree with this. So, take it with a grain of salt!

[sheryl]

Whew, thanks everyone for your responses! Eliz/Lori, What you are saying is that there is a range of hours in which the parent teaches and child works; knowing that the time may deviate a bit from the low and/or high ends. If, during our day, my dd takes 40 min. or so to complete a day's lesson for a subject, I should be ok with that as it's close to 60 min. and they may just work on the faster side. However, if a child completes work in 20 or so minutes then that may be an indicator the level/material is too light/easy for her and jump up a level or use supplemental resources to bump it up and make it more challenging. Adding resources would "fill in" time to help round out the hour. The same applies for the whole year - if she finishes 2 or so weeks early, that's fine. But, if she finishes 2-3 months early, then perhaps the material was too easy. I can then go back and review with her, add a project - maybe more literature and a written paper, etc. This would apply to skills like math/English as well as content (sci/history)? What else? The self-defined subjects would be skill-based? And, undefined would be content-based? Is that the bottom line? (Let me add here, that I had a nice, lengthy reply to y'all and my crazy computer kicked me off-line, so I lost it. This W8 is a nightmare - also b/c it will not let me format/paragraph. I listed more in my first reply, but don't remember all of it now, so this will suffice as my reply). Eliz, please explain your dd's pe. She'll be taking 60 hours of pe during the 9 months? Do you write a syllabus for every subject/class? You may remember a conversation you and I had on the old general board, but my dd has controlled epilepsy. As a result, she has a "minor" degree of add/adhd. She's bright as well, but slooooooow in processing. It takes her longer to finish her work. However, as Reg stated re: his kids, my dd will work in bursts when she's engrossed in something she really enjoys - usually it's science or history. Learning this fact about her a couple of years ago (and taking her add/adhd into consideration) I decided she would best "retain" content by alternating semesters for sci/history. She'll double up and work on sci one semester and history the other. This works for her better as opposed to both sci and history every day. This new format allows her to read a lengthy unit, say, on the Civil War and not being able to finish one day, she'll be able to pick it up and finish it the next. There is a better "flow" of information and her brain can stay on topic with just history and not have to share it for science. :) I'm not sure if this will work for high school though. If anyone has a suggestion, I'm all ears. Accruing "time" results from instruction (material covered), student work, projects, dvd instruction, and any and all aspects of a child preparing/engaging in learning, is this right? Reg, credit hour is earned based on performance/completion of subject and "not" on time invested through instruction and student work? Subjects that use "textbooks" like science and math are pre-defined in their schedule. Is that what you are saying? So, there are 160 daily math lessons and through in tests to round out 180 day's worth of work. What are examples of a self-designed class? Is this designing your own curricula for a subject? I've never done that for the very reason of feeling like I would not present a thorough approach. Candid, thanks for the links and will check them out soon. Re: tracking, I'm not understanding this. Do you simply check off dd completed an hour for math, an hour for English, an hour for such and thus everyday? I like your format you created, Reg. Did you or someone else mention using tracking that automatically.........this is where it's fuzzy. I thought I read from one of you that tracking can automatically suggest the next assignment for a given subject. Also, that a student can enter information. Looking forward to hearing your replies! Thanks again all!

[sheryl]

I never counted hours, just material covered. So if an Algebra I textbook takes two years to cover, I still give just one credit. If my child completed the whole book in 4 months, I'd still give one credit.

 

We have a rather unique situation in our town where we can choose to transfer homeschool credits to the public high school and get a degree from the high school. However, I need to list hours on the transcript. I just list the required hours, no matter how long it took for my child to complete it. Because if they complete an Algegra I text in 4 months but did absolutely everything the ps would cover in a school year, then I'm going to put 120 hours even if she was able to do it in 60 hours. She deserves 1 credit, not 1/2. My justification? She did 120 hours' worth of work.

 

Also, I don't list courses by grades. So if my daughter took two years to complete Algebra II, I don't list each grade with the classes she took during that year. I simply list Algebra II, 1 credit. No grade mentioned. No one needs to know how long it took to complete it.

 

For subjects that are more subjective as far as how much to do to count as a full credit vs. half-credit. Well, I just kind of got the hang of it. If a course is full with lots of hard work and assignments to show for it and it's worked on all year, I'll usually give a full credit, though not always.

 

I'm much more laid back about how I do this than others, and others may disagree with this. So, take it with a grain of salt!

 

Thanks, JJ! I believe this is what Reg is saying. Granting credit hour is based on material covered/completed work and not the actual investment of time. Thanks for the tip of suggesting not to assign a grade level to a particular subject. That makes sense to me in case it will take her 1 1/2 or more years to complete, say, math or English. Good advice!

[JennW in SoCal]

I never counted hours, just material covered......I'm much more laid back about how I do this than others, and others may disagree with this.

 

This describes my methodology, too. Or the method of my madness. But in either case it worked and I never had the homeschool police nor college admissions counselors grilling me on the exact number of hours spent on each course.

 

I, too, listed courses on the transcript by subject, rather than by hours. And each course had a distinct, set amount of material that made it a complete, year-long course. I set things up so that there was lots of cross-over reading and writing between the courses, but there was still a set amount work that counted as "a course". Ultimately I knew I had to submit course descriptions and reading lists to go along with that transcript, which kept me honest about what was worthy of credit. Most importantly I simply wanted to prepare my kids for college and adult life. During the high school years I was more focused about my kids as individuals and their specific educational needs. Transcripts were secondary, something I put together the summer before senior year.

 

How did I know that something was "enough" for a year long course? Common sense and good judgement. Studying the scope of material covered in SAT II or AP test prep books. I looked at the content of pre-packaged programs, looking at the table of contents in text books or Teaching Company courses. Thought of the syllabi I had in back in college. Sometimes a course was planned in advance, sometimes I had to fashion a course title for an activity that my student was doing anyway, and could easily be an elective, such as robotics or theater. If I felt an activity needed "more" to make it worthy of a credit (usually a half-year credit), I'd assign further reading and/or ask for a short paper or presentation about the activity. Sometimes I'd have them do some research into the job market and education for a career related to the activity and call it "career exploration".

[Susie in CA]

TC lectures are included in the things my kids can do during their daily school hours. DS often begins the day with a lecture because that helps him put his brain into gear.

Time spent listening to a TC lecture is counted for school. Whether it happens during the designated school hours, or in the car during summer vacation (excellent way to get a head start on the following school year's history!).

If they were in public school, they would listen to the teacher lecture during class. If they were in college, they would attend lectures. So sure, lectures=school.

 

Thank you Regentrude. This is what I was thinking as well. I guess, I just needed someone to confirm this. Now, I feel better already. :)

[regentrude]

Reg, credit hour is earned based on performance/completion of subject and "not" on time invested through instruction and student work? Subjects that use "textbooks" like science and math are pre-defined in their schedule. Is that what you are saying? So, there are 160 daily math lessons and through in tests to round out 180 day's worth of work.

 

 

For subjects with a defined goal, yes, content is what matters, and not hours spent. Typically these would be math, and for us core sciences, since we base those on a textbook. I might self-design an out-of-the-box course for a science elective.

But some subjects are less well defined, do not use standard textbooks - so counting hours gives me an idea of what we have done is credit worthy or not.

 

What are examples of a self-designed class? Is this designing your own curricula for a subject? I've never done that for the very reason of feeling like I would not present a thorough approach

 

 

One example are my history and English courses. We use an integrated approach, teaching the great literary works in their historical context. This means, the line between history and English is blurred, and I count everything into one course and split the hours. For Ancients, we used the relevant chapters of a history text as a spine and read Iliad, Odyssey, Aeneid, Herodotus, Greek tragedies, Ovid and Plato. We used 72 Teaching Company audio lectures on the Homeric epics, classical mythology, Greek tragedy. We used parts of a video lecture on Roman civilization.My student wrote several papers and gave an oral presentation.

This is not a course I find somewhere laid out for me, where sombody has decided "this is one credit history and one credit English". I kept track of the hours and felt comfortable awarding one credit for each, based on the material covered and the amount of time spent studying the subject.

 

Reg. Did you or someone else mention using tracking that automatically.........this is where it's fuzzy. I thought I read from one of you that tracking can automatically suggest the next assignment for a given subject. Also, that a student can enter information.

 

 

I am not using a ready made product for homeschoolers, but simply programmed my own excel spreadsheet. My students keep track of their work in their daily planners, I enter at the end of the week into the computer. It automatically adds up time per subject and day.

My program does not contain any "assignmnets". My students know the materials they are working with for each course, and they choose what they want to do next: listen to a lecture, continue taking notes from the textbook, work on their essay, read the next Great Book, research a particular topic.

 

Hope this helps.

[sheryl]

Hi Jenn! I agree with you that there is more to life than an education. I probably feel this way b/c my dd is s.n. She is mild special needs, but sn just the same. Still, I know she depends on me to provide her with as good of an education that I'm able to provide. There is definitely a balance! Thanks for your input and the last paragraph offered good tips that will be helpful. Reg, defined vs undefined. It has nothing to do with skill/content subjects? I'm trying to understand un/defined. Is there another way to explain this. LOL! Transcripts that Jenn mentioned....how, when do you need to gather info. on this? Grades - how do you assign? That is so subjective. I've always tried to be very objective. But, high school writing, etc - ???????

[PeterPan]

my dd will work in bursts when she's engrossed in something she really enjoys - usually it's science or history. Learning this fact about her a couple of years ago (and taking her add/adhd into consideration) I decided she would best "retain" content by alternating semesters for sci/history. She'll double up and work on sci one semester and history the other. This works for her better as opposed to both sci and history every day. This new format allows her to read a lengthy unit, say, on the Civil War and not being able to finish one day, she'll be able to pick it up and finish it the next. There is a better "flow" of information and her brain can stay on topic with just history and not have to share it for science. :) I'm not sure if this will work for high school though.

 

 

ABSOLUTELY this works!!! :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

 

Keep right on going with this. All you're doing now is trying to quantify it, either in hindsite or on the front end. There are MANY ways you could track this, and ANY of them are acceptable. Not exhaustive here, just a few:

 

-Make a grid with 120 squares and she shades in hours as she completes them.

-Make a chart with each week, a spot to record hours, and tally that sheet.

-Hang counting hours and just look back and say man, she generally worked 4 (or a bunch of) hours a day, 3 days a week for 10-13 weeks, that's 120 hours. Not perfectionist, not nitpicky, just that general sense of those chunks you were talking about. She worked the chunks, they accumulated, you know it, done.

-Make a list of work, assign some time to each task/topic for estimating purposes, and when she completes the work you know she hit the time.

 

Not trying to be exhaustive there. Binz does such a good job explaining it. She even has the "He did a bunch of it, liked it, so I gave him a 1/2 or 1 credit and an A" approach. ;) You should DEFINITELY keep going in the way that works for her. You should NOT change things that work. All I'm doing with my little syllabi is getting things on paper that we would have been doing anyway. It's sort of codifying (putting into law/contract) the things we already do. I've done the equivalent for years with some of her stuff. It's just this time we have so many ideas, things that might be done over time, that it was easier for me just to make lots of sheets of paper and let her pick what she wants to work on. Like I said, we're NOT changing how we work to start high school. I'm just maybe organizing it a little better. ;)

 

And no, her PE won't be in 9 months, lol. She'll be lucky if it's done in 4 years. Watch, I'm gonna be on the boards her senior year saying I'm kicking my dd's butt to get her on the track. But you know, I want a few things that she has to do just because they're the law. We have very little of that in our lives and avoid conflict, but unfortunately college doesn't care about that. So it's my little psychological attempt to get her to warm up to the idea that someone can tell her to do something simply because, whether she agrees with it or not, and she really has to. You know I'm being light-hearted about this, right? :smilielol5: But that's just us, our house. I don't think normal people do that. Probably normal people pick a plan for the year and do it. I decided I'd make syllabi that could go over several years and that were more like cumulative logs expressing things we were doing. But we're sort of loose, flexible people. We school year round and break things into terms. Some of her sheets are going to be more like blank log forms. I think this will work for us. I think? :w00t:

[PeterPan]

Hi Jenn! I agree with you that there is more to life than an education. I probably feel this way b/c my dd is s.n. She is mild special needs, but sn just the same. Still, I know she depends on me to provide her with as good of an education that I'm able to provide. There is definitely a balance! Thanks for your input and the last paragraph offered good tips that will be helpful. Reg, defined vs undefined. It has nothing to do with skill/content subjects? I'm trying to understand un/defined. Is there another way to explain this. LOL! Transcripts that Jenn mentioned....how, when do you need to gather info. on this? Grades - how do you assign? That is so subjective. I've always tried to be very objective. But, high school writing, etc - ???????

 

 

Totally agree with Regentrude on this. By defined, she means say algebra 1. There's an amount of material to cover, and you're not done till it's (reasonably) done. If it takes the kid double long, he doesn't get 2 credits, sorry. By undefined, she means you're out on your own, making up your own thing, creating your own definition of what the study can be. Sounds like you've been doing some of this, and it's AWESOME. You should DEFINITELY continue this. So that's when you just think through what the easiest way is for you to keep track of it. (list, spreadsheet, general hindsite sense) It all works.

 

Btw, some people really like lists or some other method. That doesn't mean you have to do that. You could be seeing our personal preferences here. Like this whole thing with the syllabi is because my dd thrives on structure and clear definition. So it's like she needs a defined course the way Regentrude was describing (180 steps, this is what you do), but she needs looseness too and freedom to explore. It's sorta screwy to work with, which is why I'm making our syllabi sheets. That doesn't mean YOU have to. It's just what I'm doing to work with this particular dc. She'll literally say to me "Mom, put study History of the Middle Earth on my checklist this week so I can do it"... You only need the structure you need for *your* dc to be successful. :)

[sheryl]

Thanks Elizabeth, I'm going to re-read this too! :) I'm so glad I posted this b/c I feel like I've dropped the ball. I haven't planned much K-8. But, then again, she did learn, but it was very packaged and out-of-the-box. This replies have given me insight. There is more to say, but suffice it to say for now that I'm challenged to think outside the box. This is all good. Talk to you soon.

[Nscribe]

One thing I keep in the back of my mind, I will be signing the transcript. My signature is my oath, my representation to others, of what Dd did. It matters to me that what I sign, and thereby certify, is truthful and accurate.

 

If Dd learns nothing more from me in these years, she will learn the value of being a person of integrity and worthy of trust. Before we begin a course, I guage what needs to be mastered. Dd earns a credit when she can demonstrate she has mastered it in a way that I can feel confident about certifying it. I tend to value what comprises the credit, more than how much. However, so far, "what" generally wound up in the time ranges noted in posts above for earning a credit anyway. Many materials are designed with those sorts of hour estimates built into them.

 

Dd learned this year, I will not sign off on what is not valid. She wanted to apply for a program that required a pre-requisite and I told her I would not sign that it was done because she had not completed the work assigned. Was it hard to see her miss the opportunity? Yup! The thing is, the alternative would be to falsify a document to allow her to participate in something she was not ready to participate in according to the standards set by the program. I will not do that. My reason is not only a sense of it being wrong to do so, but also a belief that the program knew what was needed for success and she did not have it done. Getting into a program (or college) is really not as important as completing it successfully and I do her no favors by aiding her in getting in if she is not ready.

 

As I read back over this before posting, I realize the risk of coming off as sanctimonious. Please do not take it that way. I am really trying to say it is a matter of determining what one can live with representing. It is not easy to specifically know what skills, specific information sets and so forth a student will need to really have a shot of success at a given college. We can all only do our best as we go to prepare our students to have a great shot. We have to live with ourselves once we sign the transcripts and our students have to live with the challenges the transcripts allow them to confront. Assuming good faith, it should all work.

[sheryl]

One thing I keep in the back of my mind, I will be signing the transcript. My signature is my oath, my representation to others, of what Dd did. It matters to me that what I sign, and thereby certify, is truthful and accurate.

 

If Dd learns nothing more from me in these years, she will learn the value of being a person of integrity and worthy of trust. Before we begin a course, I guage what needs to be mastered. Dd earns a credit when she can demonstrate she has mastered it in a way that I can feel confident about certifying it. I tend to value what comprises the credit, more than how much. However, so far, "what" generally wound up in the time ranges noted in posts above for earning a credit anyway. Many materials are designed with those sorts of hour estimates built into them.

 

Dd learned this year, I will not sign off on what is not valid. She wanted to apply for a program that required a pre-requisite and I told her I would not sign that it was done because she had not completed the work assigned. Was it hard to see her miss the opportunity? Yup! The thing is, the alternative would be to falsify a document to allow her to participate in something she was not ready to participate in according to the standards set by the program. I will not do that. My reason is not only a sense of it being wrong to do so, but also a belief that the program knew what was needed for success and she did not have it done. Getting into a program (or college) is really not as important as completing it successfully and I do her no favors by aiding her in getting in if she is not ready.

 

As I read back over this before posting, I realize the risk of coming off as sanctimonious. Please do not take it that way. I am really trying to say it is a matter of determining what one can live with representing. It is not easy to specifically know what skills, specific information sets and so forth a student will need to really have a shot of success at a given college. We can all only do our best as we go to prepare our students to have a great shot. We have to live with ourselves once we sign the transcripts and our students have to live with the challenges the transcripts allow them to confront. Assuming good faith, it should all work.

 

Yes, this is how I operate as I'm sure "most" of the people on wtm subscribe to this mindset as well. I've kept grades for years. Using Abeka's Language, now English, is an excellent program. When grading tests, etc. I follow the answer key to a "t". Your post "tone" was fine, but I'm not looking for an easy way to finish her schooling. She is a bright student with sloooooooow processing skills (diagnosed). Because of this we h'school pretty much year round. Last week and next, I made it clear that she is to correct mistakes in her math book from the beginning of the year - one here and one there! It's time to discuss why she didn't understand something and proceed. Most of the time she can correct the problem on her own and other times she needs my guidance. On rare occasion she didn't get it (usually story/word problems) and I've marked wrong. However, she'll be addressing those with her tutor which we have on hand to use every now and then. :) Now, I've been talking about grades and you're talking credit. Hopefully you can she from what I portrayed that I'll continue on in like fashion. The more I've read this thread, the more I realize thought there is an element of subjectivity in granting credit. Like Reg said and it applies to my daughter as I noted in an earlier reply, my dd will work in bursts. It's how she's wired and "may" be evident of her weakness of add/adhd OR it may just be her style of learning. What I'm grappling with is - my "criteria" for assigning credit/grade may be different from yours and yours may different from Reg's whose is different than Elizabeth's, etc. I wish I would have started this process at the beginning of 8th. I had intended to do so but didn't follow through with it. Now I'm having to jump start it all. There is a learning curve for me here and I'm in the middle of it. Afterward comes the application! I do agree with what you are saying. A good education is important (as I noted earlier) b/c it will help our children, but, and I'm talking bottom line here, there is more to life than an education. As noted earlier, there needs to be a balance. I couldn't imagine schooling without parenting. By that I mean, take off the teacher hat. To my dd, first I'm her Mother then her teacher. :)

[PeterPan]

Sheryl, I don't think you're behind! LOL She's only in 8th grade for pity's sake. I guess if people are including 8th and prior stuff that they want to include on the transcript (stuff the college may feel free to ignore) or need it to graduate early (making 8th become 9th), then it's an issue. You're just fine though. We're all sorting through it right now, and just from watching discussions I think it's a stage, a thought process you go through. If you had decided something a year ago, it wouldn't have reflected where she's at developmentally now and what she's doing now. At least it wouldn't have with my dd. She has taken a major leap this year.

 

As far as the grades, again I thought Binz did a good job exploring, as you say, the options and how they can fairly (though subjectively) show work. Here's the thing. I don't think anyone looking at a homeschool transcript really takes the grades seriously and goes oh yes, that mom compared those essays to a class and she KNOWS. Nope. I saw well let's just say a lot of transcripts, and we used to laugh at the string of A's over and over and over from homeschoolers. Oh yes, every single student that applied was an A student. Occasionally I saw a B. Seriously, there's no way, and they know that. That's where your test scores, extra currics, essays, interviews, etc. come in and validate what the transcript claims. I also think moms here are much tougher graders than what you see in the general population.

 

So personally, my two cents is to encourage you NOT to stress over grades. Use the most basic, practical method of implementation that helps you accomplish your academic goals for your student. If it's really, really important for your student that math homework be graded and have a numerical grade to make sure she accomplishes the work and hold her feet to the fire, then do it. If she does the math with you and it's either done to your satisfaction or not done, then probably you can just put a grade on it at the end of the semester and call it good. That's how math is in our house, because you either did it to my satisfaction (which in this case is A work for this student) or you didn't.

 

For some subjects I've finally concluded that I'm going to use a rather subjective standard:

 

C=got it done, did the baseline, avoided/skipped out on a lot of the extras I had built in

B=got it done, did some of the extras

A=got it done, went all the way

 

And you know, I think we as moms have that subconscious sense of how things are going. We'll come on the board and say:

 

-Yeah, that course is going awesome, we've really been banging it out this year!--->A

-Yeah, we got it done. She was kind of annoyed and skipped some things, but we got it done.--->B

-Man, getting that kid to do it was like pulling teeth. She did as little as possible, watched just the videos, and refused to do anything else.--->C

 

Guess that's putting it way out there with my thought process. :) Like you say, it's subjective. But I'm putting how the grade is quantified on each sheet, because to me it helps my thought process on whether she's accomplishing what she needs to, whether there's wiggle room, where I'm going to be *dissatisfied* with her work and where there's flex. And really, it has been interesting for me to think through that potential, as nscribe described, of kids who chose not to do work, chose not to do ALL the work, etc. So to me I'm creating levels of acceptability for each thing. Just gives you another way to think beyond numbers, if that's what you're looking for. I don't have mental brainpower to give to numbers, lol. And it really varies. Some schools actually put percentages/numbers on transcripts. You don't HAVE to do numbers though. Grade letters are fine. Just think through how you're getting there and what you want them to reflect for each subject.

 

Just a couple I've made so far:

 

Chemistry:

 

C=> Complete all videos and labs.

B=> Complete all videos and labs and do most of the reading.

A=> Complete videos, labs, reading, and make a creative book on elements.

 

PE:

 

A=> Log required hours and activities. (this is sort of draconian, log the hours or it's not done, there is no option, lol)

 

Studio Art:

 

C=> Complete basic projects and log 120 hours.

B=> Complete basic and creative projects and log 120+ hours.

A=> Complete basic and creative projects and artist studies, log 120+ hours.

 

Just some ideas for you. And you know if your materials have structure that allows for traditional number grades and quizzes and all that stuff, that's fine too. All you're looking for is structure to express that she's working to your satisfaction.