DiannaC Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 I attended the homeschool conference in Greenville a couple of months ago & heard Andrew Pudewa speak. In his discussion about teaching English grammar to grammar age students, he was emphatically against it. He said it was better to teach Latin because it was easier for them to recognize the parts of speech and as they got older, you introduce the study of English grammar & they learn it much quicker. By the way, I went to this talk right after I bought FLL! This is what he said at the conference: http://blog.thehomeschoolmagazine.com/2012/06/12/3590/ We are using Spell to Write & Read for spelling & phonics, but there are also grammar rules taught as well. What are your thoughts on teaching Latin instead of English grammar? Is 1st grade too young to begin Latin? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoo Keeper Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 Here's my two cents... and I don't think that first grade is too young for exposure to Latin. Song School Latin is especially fun for around that age. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boscopup Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 I've found that learning 3rd grade level English grammar was very helpful to my son learning Latin, and yes, the Latin reinforces the English grammar well. There are certainly a lot of things we've studied in English grammar this year that we haven't touched on in Latin. Go ahead and do FLL, since you bought it. It takes like 5 minutes of your day. ;) My middle son will use FLL1 next year in first grade. He *may* sit in on Latin with his big brother, but I'm not worrying too much about Latin right now. He's still learning to speak and read English properly. I started my oldest in Latin in 3rd grade, and that has been a good time for us. I don't think there is such a thing as "too young" though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loftmama Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 I love it! I used FLL 1 & 2 with my sons but don't feel like it made a difference at all. If I could do it over, I'd drop the FLL and just teach the Latin. But then I'm an English major and have no problem skipping the grammar bc I pepper our conversations with grammatical observations anyway. My dh's family are all grammarians and we play nerdy grammar games at the dinner table and on the road so yes, I ditched the grammar book years ago and have no regrets. That said, I've just picked it up this year (at the middle school level) with diagramming sentences (my true love) and he loves it, too. And that is with having no "grammar lessons" for the last 4 years or so. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lorisuewho Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 I heard Martin Cothran speak and he, as well, made an excellent case for teaching Latin to teach grammar. I asked him if I should teach Rod and Staff grammar if I am teaching Latin and he said that was like watering the lawn while it is raining. He was very convincing. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kristinannie Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 I heard Martin Cothran speak and he, as well, made an excellent case for teaching Latin to teach grammar. I asked him if I should teach Rod and Staff grammar if I am teaching Latin and he said that was like watering the lawn while it is raining. He was very convincing. He convinced me too!!!! I am going to start Latin next year in second grade and follow the Memoria Press timeline for Latin. I will also do Jr. Analytical Grammar or something like that in late elementary and then Analytical Gramma in middle school. I am currently reading The War Against Grammar. I highly recommend it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiannaC Posted May 17, 2013 Author Share Posted May 17, 2013 He convinced me too!!!! I am going to start Latin next year in second grade and follow the Memoria Press timeline for Latin. I will also do Jr. Analytical Grammar or something like that in late elementary and then Analytical Gramma in middle school. I am currently reading The War Against Grammar. I highly recommend it! Thanks for the recommendation. From what I've seen online, I think we will start Prima Latina next year in 2nd. We have Latin memory work with CC and that will suffice this year. In SWR, your child writes sentences based on his spelling words, and I've already had the opportunity to talk about capitalization at the beginning of a sentence and proper nouns. I think I'll just use the grammar SWR introduces and do more formal grammar as ds gets older. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happypamama Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 We've done very little formal English grammar, but we did Latin first, and that does seem to have worked well. It makes it much clearer, I think, to learn Latin first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mystie Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 We are doing grammar through Latin, using LFC which is very strong in grammar instruction. It's working for us really well! But I, too, am an English major who is a grammar nerd. :) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhineasPoe Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 I heard Martin Cothran speak and he, as well, made an excellent case for teaching Latin to teach grammar. I asked him if I should teach Rod and Staff grammar if I am teaching Latin and he said that was like watering the lawn while it is raining. He was very convincing. I just had this experience as well and left the conference decided that we could do without a formal grammar program. Now that I am home with my Rod & Staff grammar books I am beginning to doubt. We have done two years of MP Latin and I can see how there is a lot of grammar content in it, but there is a lot that R&S teaches that is not addressed at all. I really like how R&S teaches the difference between good & well, lay & lie, raise & rise, etc. How does a child learn punctuation from Latin, particularly comma usage? For example, how would a child learn to set off appositives and nouns of direct address with commas from a Latin program? I like the idea of one less curriculum to buy and one less subject to cram into the day, but the more I think about it the less certain I am that Latin will cover everything I want it to grammatically. Can anyone who has actually done it assure me? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALB Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 I think you'd be fine either way, honestly. There is enough grammar in most Latin programs to give you fairly thorough coverage, although you do still need to address English-specific things like punctuation. We finally made the switch from R&S to MP's Grammar Recitation. I wrote a review of it here and compare the two grammar programs here. I like how our grammar is streamlined and works well with our Latin studies. Feels like we're getting the best of both worlds- mainly learning grammar through Latin but also memorizing English grammar usage. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrammarGirl Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 I just had this experience as well and left the conference decided that we could do without a formal grammar program. Now that I am home with my Rod & Staff grammar books I am beginning to doubt. We have done two years of MP Latin and I can see how there is a lot of grammar content in it, but there is a lot that R&S teaches that is not addressed at all. I really like how R&S teaches the difference between good & well, lay & lie, raise & rise, etc. How does a child learn punctuation from Latin, particularly comma usage? For example, how would a child learn to set off appositives and nouns of direct address with commas from a Latin program? I like the idea of one less curriculum to buy and one less subject to cram into the day, but the more I think about it the less certain I am that Latin will cover everything I want it to grammatically. Can anyone who has actually done it assure me? Yes, this exactly. As a classroom English teacher, I, too, am concerned about usage. Usage can be effectively taught only when there is a solid grammatical foundation. I'm not sure that Latin grammar correlates well enough. I have heard Andrew Pudewa make negative comments about direct, intensive grammar instruction and read some of Martin Cothran's statements against English grammar. My feeling is that they've had limited exposure to English grammar taught well. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heidi Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 Could punctuation and word usage come naturally through reading, daily copy work, and dictation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mystie Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 Could punctuation and word usage come naturally through reading, daily copy work, and dictation? To that I would only add "correct everything they write" as well. Most of that we have learned only through my correcting their written work. Translating a Latin sentence? The English needs a capital and a period, every time. Writing the date out on your math? There must be a comma between the day and the year. etc. etc. ...and that requires being willing to be a mean mom. :) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mystie Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 I just had this experience as well and left the conference decided that we could do without a formal grammar program. Now that I am home with my Rod & Staff grammar books I am beginning to doubt. We have done two years of MP Latin and I can see how there is a lot of grammar content in it, but there is a lot that R&S teaches that is not addressed at all. I really like how R&S teaches the difference between good & well, lay & lie, raise & rise, etc. How does a child learn punctuation from Latin, particularly comma usage? For example, how would a child learn to set off appositives and nouns of direct address with commas from a Latin program? I like the idea of one less curriculum to buy and one less subject to cram into the day, but the more I think about it the less certain I am that Latin will cover everything I want it to grammatically. Can anyone who has actually done it assure me? Technically, these things that you point out are usage and not grammar. Grammar can be taught through Latin. Usage can be taught through, well, using English. :) Things like appositives and such come up in writing, because I teach them what they are and then require them to use it (I do my own modified IEW style). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heidi Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 To that I would only add "correct everything they write" as well. Most of that we have learned only through my correcting their written work. Translating a Latin sentence? The English needs a capital and a period, every time. Writing the date out on your math? There must be a comma between the day and the year. etc. etc. ...and that requires being willing to be a mean mom. :) And a knowledgable mom. It means *I* should be working through R&S, since I love it so much. I was never taught grammar, so it has been great to learn along with my kids. My kids, of course, hate it. This coming up year we'll be doing Latin, English Lessons through Literature (which has light grammar applied to real sentences from their lit books), and I was going to add in R&S grammar two days a week, just to make sure they have it down... But I guess I won't. I'll work through the R&S books myself and become editor. I think that would work beautifully. Great idea! Thank you. I'm sure they'll be thrilled! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mom2att Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 For some kids, English grammar through Latin is enough, probably the same type of kid for whom a spelling program is redundant and who learned to read with very little phonics instruction. This was my oldest. My younger two, however, have needed more systematic instruction--in phonics, in spelling, in grammar, in everything. The Latin I've done with them has certainly reinforced grammar concepts beautifully, and I am confident it will also be of benefit when they begin a modern language study, but they have definitely needed English grammar alongside Latin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhineasPoe Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 I think you'd be fine either way, honestly. There is enough grammar in most Latin programs to give you fairly thorough coverage, although you do still need to address English-specific things like punctuation. We finally made the switch from R&S to MP's Grammar Recitation. I wrote a review of it here and compare the two grammar programs here. I like how our grammar is streamlined and works well with our Latin studies. Feels like we're getting the best of both worlds- mainly learning grammar through Latin but also memorizing English grammar usage. I like this suggestion. There still seem to be two levels of the work books that need to be written, is that correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluegoat Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 I attended the homeschool conference in Greenville a couple of months ago & heard Andrew Pudewa speak. In his discussion about teaching English grammar to grammar age students, he was emphatically against it. He said it was better to teach Latin because it was easier for them to recognize the parts of speech and as they got older, you introduce the study of English grammar & they learn it much quicker. By the way, I went to this talk right after I bought FLL! This is what he said at the conference: http://blog.thehomeschoolmagazine.com/2012/06/12/3590/ We are using Spell to Write & Read for spelling & phonics, but there are also grammar rules taught as well. What are your thoughts on teaching Latin instead of English grammar? Is 1st grade too young to begin Latin? I think Latin can be a very good way to learn English grammar. You'll have to teach the applicable English grammar as you go along in any case, so really it is learning both at once. Many American English grammar programs teach diagramming, but parsing a sentence in Latin to translate pretty much amounts to the same thing. That being said, I think first grade is young to do either English grammar or study Latin grammatically, and ends up being time spent to little effect, and it can create bordom and frustration beyond that. I don't even consider kids at that age to be in the grammar stage yet. Song School Latin is a fun program for that age, but it contains very little grammar and is mostly learning vocabulary. It would probably be just as usful to study a modern language at that age and save Latin for the instroduction of grammar study. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluegoat Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 I just had this experience as well and left the conference decided that we could do without a formal grammar program. Now that I am home with my Rod & Staff grammar books I am beginning to doubt. We have done two years of MP Latin and I can see how there is a lot of grammar content in it, but there is a lot that R&S teaches that is not addressed at all. I really like how R&S teaches the difference between good & well, lay & lie, raise & rise, etc. How does a child learn punctuation from Latin, particularly comma usage? For example, how would a child learn to set off appositives and nouns of direct address with commas from a Latin program? I like the idea of one less curriculum to buy and one less subject to cram into the day, but the more I think about it the less certain I am that Latin will cover everything I want it to grammatically. Can anyone who has actually done it assure me? i have not done this myself, but from what I have seen of people who have, they do still address English grammar contextually in English composition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Governess Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 We do intensive English grammar here. It has made learning Latin SO much easier. You have to teach the grammar one way or another... dd has been able to transfer her English grammar skills to Latin very quickly and then focus on vocabulary acquisition and translation during our Latin lessons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reefgazer Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 As someone who had to learn English grammar from scratch while teaching my kids I agree with Pudewa. Latin teaches the English grammar better than an English text, and we have retained better through learning Latin. I attended the homeschool conference in Greenville a couple of months ago & heard Andrew Pudewa speak. In his discussion about teaching English grammar to grammar age students, he was emphatically against it. He said it was better to teach Latin because it was easier for them to recognize the parts of speech and as they got older, you introduce the study of English grammar & they learn it much quicker. By the way, I went to this talk right after I bought FLL! This is what he said at the conference: http://blog.thehomeschoolmagazine.com/2012/06/12/3590/ We are using Spell to Write & Read for spelling & phonics, but there are also grammar rules taught as well. What are your thoughts on teaching Latin instead of English grammar? Is 1st grade too young to begin Latin? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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