Dual Credit not going so well. Help!

[MommyThrice]

Ds is having a rough time with his dc classes. Last semester, as a junior, he took Intro to Chem (got an A) and Trig (got a B). This semester he's taking Pre-Calc and is probably getting another B. He's my future lawyer and he's never been strong in math, but this seems like a terrible start to college to me. Trig was not difficult for him - he just got behind and wasn't prepared for one test. I had hoped he learned a lesson, but the same thing happened again this semester. This kid is really busy and distractible. He competes in speech, debate and moot court and, of course, being cool and impressing the girls are full-time jobs!

 

Dh doesn't mind letting him learn this lesson the hard way. I'm not sure about that. He is still in high school; should I let him fail already or should I be training him (feels like forcing him)? Looks like he will be going to Baylor with a nice scholarship (National Merit) but he will need to maintain a 3.5 GPA. If he loses the scholarship, he can't stay at Baylor. I realize that these dc grades won't be averaged into the Baylor GPA, but it already looks to me like he may not be able to keep up. I have hopes that when he gets into the honors dorm and is surrounded by other smart students it will help his work ethic. Maybe that's just wishful thinking. Right now he isn't in that environment. I'm tempted to put him on "probation" here. Maybe stop his dc classes if he drops below a 3.5 He just registered for Arabic over the summer and it's a 5 hour class. It's not too late to drop it. He plans to take 3 classes next fall (Statistics, U.S. History, and Physics)

 

How do you handle this with your kids? Do you leave them alone? Do you prod and nag? Do you have "consequences" or probation? Please tell me he will outgrow this soon, because it is making me old in a hurry!

[regentrude]

Our deal is that I do not get involved in DD's dual enrollment classes as long as she is doing well, and I have had no need to nag, since she is working extremely hard and excels.

I am not so much concerned with your son's grades (because, unless there is grade inflation, a B is a good grade and should be above average), but more with the fact that you feel he is performing below his potential because of his time management.

I am a college instructor, and almost all of the students who are unsuccessful in my course are so because they do not manage their time well and do not put in enough work, not because of inherent ability. If your son is struggling with time management (getting behind, not being prepared, being distracted), I would definitely address this and not "leave him alone". He needs to be aware that college class means that he might have to put in two hours of outside work for every hour in class, and he needs to budget for this time to keep up with his work on a continuing basis. If I felt the need for probation, I would not tie it to the actual grade, but to the effort the student is putting in: regular class participation, completion of the required reading and assignments, enough time on task. If a student who does put in the two outside hours per class hour, works efficiently and uses help sessions and tutoring centers does not get an A, then that's OK - but I would require that he put in this amount of work.

 

I would definitely NOT permit my student to sign up for three classes in the fall if he can not stay on top of his work.

[MommyThrice]

I am not so much concerned with your son's grades (because, unless there is grade inflation, a B is a good grade and should be above average), but more with the fact that you feel he is performing below his potential because of his time management.

 

Time management. That is the problem exactly. And I was so looking forward to having him accountable to someone else next year. He doesn't want to be micro-managed and has even resorted to hiding the fact when he gets behind. He's constantly moving from one emergency project to another (one week it's a research paper, the next it's Pre-Calc). How do you help your kids learn to manage their time?

[regentrude]

How do you help your kids learn to manage their time?

 

 

Not sure if I can help.

Maybe DD would have been able to learn it anyway on her own, but what I found very helpful was getting her used to a college class format as early as age 13. I had her audit (i.e. participate without formal enrollment and the grade "counting" forever) her first class, and I was working more closely with her then: I told her she needed to read the assigned reading and take notes (and I occasionally looked at the notes and made suggestions for more efficiency); I was available for help with her homework (which was sometimes needed), I encouraged her to participate in the help sessions. I permitted her to skip the note taking from the reading when it turned out that she was overprepared for the lectures, LOL - most other students did not read the book.

While one can easily pull that off with a 13 y/o, I do not think this would work too well with a 17 y/o. OTOH, if he does not show that he can do it on his own, I might be tempted to insist that he show me his plan for what is to be accomplished when and I *would* micromanage. After all, he is still a high school student and you are in charge; taking DE classes is a privilege, and you are absolutely entitled to be involved if he can't do it on his own.

Good luck.

[Gwen in VA]

When my kids hit a "I am having problems staying on top of things" phase, I would work with them. Each day after breakfast we would discuss their assignments and THEY would come up with a schedule for the day detailing what work they were going to do, when they would do it, and how much time they would spend on it. They found this process to be horrible enough that it provided excellent incentive for them to stay on top of things on their own!

[Teachin'Mine]

Does your college offer a college prep/study/research skills class? I'd recommend he take one this summer, if it's available, and in place of the Arabic class. A big benefit of dual enrollment is learning how to manage your time and knowing how to approach professors and tutors for help. The goal of the DE classes would be to get a totally independent college student, but some need help to get there. It's a benefit that he's coming across these problems now and not once he's away at college. I agree with what Regentrude said that it's not the grade that's the problem, that's just the symptom of the underlying time management problem. Honestly I have no idea how my dd schedules her time, but I think that she looks over the whole course syllabus and notes the dates for test/papers. Since papers have a more flexible deadline, as they can be done earlier Not later lol, she tries to get these done early to leave time dedicated to study. The professors are usually very clear about when the tests will be, although this can vary slightly as the semester progresses. I would recommend that he keep a calendar and note on it all the due dates and test dates. He needs to think in terms of how much he can do when a project is first assigned rather than how long he can wait to make the deadline. That shift in thinking is crucial. I wonder if his lack of concern about the B is because it's in math and he's not interested in math, or if he just thinks that it's good enough. Either way, since his scholarship is GPA dependent, he needs to change his thinking. I would encourage him to meet with his professors, the ones he's already had, and ask their advice. I'd also recommend that you both meet with an advisor and get advice on courses and scheduling. If he won't go to the support center for help on his own, then I would make it a condition of his continuing in DE. IMO this year should be spent making sure he's prepared for independent work in college, and hopefully he likes his DE classes enough to be willing to do the work required. I'd also make sure that he knows how to find all the class info and e-mails online. For most professors this is their preferred way of communicating deadlines, updates, etc..

[Sunshine State Sue]

How do you handle this with your kids? Do you leave them alone? Do you prod and nag? Do you have "consequences" or probation?

 

I prod and nag. I do whatever I can to find out ds's deadlines and make sure he meets them. Ds tends to play before work rather than the other way around, despite all my best efforts. I think ds calculates just how much he has to do to get that 91%. Dh thinks he is doing fine because he's maintained a 4.0.

 

Also, I would talk, talk, talk about the consequences of losing the scholarship.

 

Does your college offer a college prep/study/research skills class? I'd recommend he take one this summer, if it's available, and in place of the Arabic class.

 

:iagree: We are advised to take this class first. Here is the description from our catalog:

 

SLS 1101 THE COLLEGE EXPERIENCE

This course is designed to strengthen skills essential to success in college, with further applications to post-college plans. Included are study and test-taking strategies; effective interpersonal skills; time management techniques; creative and critical thinking skills; college services and resources; educational policies, procedures, regulations and terminology; and library resources, research strategies, and information skills for online, blended, and traditional learning environments.

[Jann in TX]

Sounds like his plate is overflowing his maturity level. His grades are good--but you do not want him to get used to underperforming and 'making do'.

The language course does NOT sound like a good idea unless he has already had a good amount of exposure to that language---otherwise it will eat up his whole summer just as much as a full time job would... most high school students just could not handle that well (they NEED to be kids).

 

Also 3 classes in the fall would be OK if they were the ONLY 3 classes he was taking (meaning very few if any other 'homeschool' classes). Think about high schools that operate on block scheduling-- the students only take 3-4 classes each semester.

 

I laughed when you said that you hoped he would settle down once he got into the honors dorm... honors dorms are notorious for NOT fostering study habits because the majority of students staying there had an extremely easy (non challenging) high school experience and have very poor study skills)... BTW my brother and sister graduated from Baylor (honors dorms too...).

[katilac]

Meh, I'm going to disagree for the most part. If I'm reading correctly, the worry is over him getting two B's, both in math classes. That's really not something to freak out over, imo.

 

It's quite possible that he's simply not an A student in math. That's okay, lol. He can still keep that 3.5 if he is an A student in other classes, and it sounds like he is.

 

Worst case scenario is that you are right, and he missed getting the A because he wasn't prepared enough for a couple of tests. That's possible, but I still wouldn't say that means he has poor time management. He has several time-consuming extras that sound very worthwhile. I personally would prefer those great experiences and a B in math, to missing out on those and getting an A in math.

 

I have no problem with requiring a 3.5 GPA if that is what he is going to need for college as well, but, unless I'm missing something, he HAS a 3.5. Yes?

[katilac]

Oh, I wanted to add that a time-management and/or study skills course is a great idea for anyone and everyone. If it's available locally, I would do that. If not, maybe something online.

 

Franklin Covey is the mother of all time management and organization courses, and I know they have courses online. They come from a business perspective (unless they have added new classes), but the essentials of time and information management hold true in any situation.

 

Universal Class has a time management course and may be available through your local library.

[MommyThrice]

Does your college offer a college prep/study/research skills class? I'd recommend he take one this summer, if it's available, and in place of the Arabic class.

 

He's done this at home... twice. He knows what to do, he just doesn't stay caught up. And I'm inconsistent... I make him schedule his work in his planner, then he accuses me of micro-managing so I back off, then he gets behind and I'm back to micro-managing again. He did meet with his professors last semester. This semester his class is squeezed in at night after a full day of debate, so he hasn't made the time.

 

IMO this year should be spent making sure he's prepared for independent work in college, and hopefully he likes his DE classes enough to be willing to do the work required.

 

You're right. This should be the focus right now. I may have him knock out an easier class this summer and make his fall classes contingent on his summer time-management.

[Brenda in MA]

When my kids hit a "I am having problems staying on top of things" phase, I would work with them. Each day after breakfast we would discuss their assignments and THEY would come up with a schedule for the day detailing what work they were going to do, when they would do it, and how much time they would spend on it. They found this process to be horrible enough that it provided excellent incentive for them to stay on top of things on their own!

:iagree:

When my dc have had trouble staying in control of their schoolwork, I would come beside them and help them along for a bit. I concluded that most of the time the issue was that their work load and/or difficultly level was just a bit too much for them given their age/maturity level. Rather than letting them "handle it" on their own and possibly feel like they've failed, I've chosen to give them a boost for a bit and help them see that they can get through the rough patch and into calmer waters so they feel that they've succeeded.

 

I've also taught them to use a plan book to keep track of their assignments and to plan daily work. Finding that balance between social time and school committments can be tough as well. I'd suggest making your son use some kind of planner (either paper or electronic), and sit down with him every Sunday night and discuss with him his week ahead. Make sure he has accounted for all of this extra curricular stuff, as well as time to work on class assignments and papers. Then, at the end of each day (at least for awhile), you can just ask him how his plan is working out and if he had finished everything he had hoped to accomplish that day. Hopefully, making him come to grips with his progress on a daily basis for awhile will help him to avoid crises and to see how good it feels when your workload is under control.

 

I agree with the others that the 5 credit Arabic class this summer is a bad idea. If the school offers a study skills class, that would be the better choice.

 

Best wishes,

Brenda

[MommyThrice]

To help kid learn to manage his time, I set up mandatory study hall, just like in middle school. His afternoon study hall is for homework. He can use the help center, call a friend, or whatever, but getting behind means I will drive him to the help center and sit there while he gets tutoring. All extracurriculars stop until caught up.

 

Is study hall at home or on campus?

 

Noncooperation means no go away to college or weekend job or driving privileges. He thought I was an evil mother until his scout troop did a joint campout with a very wealthy Long Island troop and he found out all those guys have mandatory study hall at home, mandatory summer coursework, yada yada to prep them for their Ivy League future.

No phone calls, texts, IMs etc during study hall. Call the girlfriend's parents if need be.

 

He thinks I'm an evil mother, too. Then an hour after the loss of privileges, later he comes to tell me he loves me.

[MommyThrice]

The language course does NOT sound like a good idea unless he has already had a good amount of exposure to that language---otherwise it will eat up his whole summer just as much as a full time job would... most high school students just could not handle that well (they NEED to be kids).

 

He used the class syllabus and studied on his own this semester. He made it about half-way through. One reason he wanted to take it over the summer is because he studied it (half of it) but he isn't getting credit. For some of the electives, I set a deadline and they must finish the course to get credit. So, now his junior year is looking a little light.

 

Since the community college only offers Arabic I and III in the fall, and II and IV, he might be better of taking that Physics over the summer and moving Arabic to the fall. I was concerned about taking the fall semester off from the language anyway.

 

Also 3 classes in the fall would be OK if they were the ONLY 3 classes he was taking (meaning very few if any other 'homeschool' classes). Think about high schools that operate on block scheduling-- the students only take 3-4 classes each semester.

 

The plan was to keep history & english at home with his brothers. I may teach it as a co-op. He wants to cram the 3 classes in before debate season begins in January. Then he'll probably take just one in the spring.

 

I laughed when you said that you hoped he would settle down once he got into the honors dorm... honors dorms are notorious for NOT fostering study habits because the majority of students staying there had an extremely easy (non challenging) high school experience and have very poor study skills)... BTW my brother and sister graduated from Baylor (honors dorms too...).

 

Oh no. Sounds like we might want to really concentrate on this now. Thanks for the heads-up.

[Miss Marple]

When my kids hit a "I am having problems staying on top of things" phase, I would work with them. Each day after breakfast we would discuss their assignments and THEY would come up with a schedule for the day detailing what work they were going to do, when they would do it, and how much time they would spend on it. They found this process to be horrible enough that it provided excellent incentive for them to stay on top of things on their own!

 

LOL! My boys can totally relate! They hated being accountable to me and finally figured it out themselves.

 

OP - Once my boys realized they were competitive and could be the top in their classes (competing with REAL college aged kids) they stepped up and worked hard. In fact, anything I required at home was put on the back burner. My youngest is my social butterfly. He has 'friends' in all his classes as well as at his workplace (rec center). So he was really enjoying himself, socially, in the fall (his first semester as concurrent). He had 9 hours but one class was a blow-off computer class. He realized how much time was required to be the best in his class (got a 4.0 gpa). His friends are the Honors Students so that gives him an extra high level to work to. I think that when my boys are surrounded by high performing students, they step up and are competitive. When they are around lower performing students, there is no real incentive to work hard (that's what happened in our co-op which is why we quit). I would definitely check out the grade transfer issue with Baylor. You certainly don't want to put his scholarship in jeopardy. But, in my boys' cases, they performed better and were better time managers when they had more courses/hours. The less free time they had, the better they managed their time and the better the grades. He is taking 10 hours this spring and if he doesn't blow the finals, he will have a 4.0 again. We just signed up my youngest for fall. I had him with 9 hours (trig, freshman comp 1, and nutrition) but he said that he would be bored with so few hours and wanted to add another class. He thought economics would be interesting...so he's signed up for 12 hours. Maybe it's personality...but my boys work harder and do better when they are busier.

 

I don't nag, but I do keep up with what is happening in each class and do a lot of reminding and asking about projects/tests/labs etc.. The boys seem to like the feeling of being in charge...

[Julie in MN]

I didn't micromanage, but I did this:

 

- Minimum one hour spent on each college class per day, sort-of like the mandatory study hall, but more like just part of our homeschool time. If he said he was all caught up, I'd find some review, checking answers, editing, etc., except in rare cases when he had spent a bunch of hours the evening before and had to focus on his other class now.

- I checked in with him on how class went each week. If anything had happened where he was less successful than he should've been, I made him talk to the professor (online, in-person appointment, whatever), and get what he needed (tutoring, explain to the teacher why he understood her instructions to be other than they were--which has been a legitimate problem, ask if there would be extra credit, etc.)

 

Julie

[Teachin'Mine]

Even though he's taken a study skills course at home, if you look at the course description Sue in St Pete provided, the college course offers a lot which is very specific to the cc. If a similar course is available, I would definitely recommend he take it.

 

It's easy enough to drop a course or two before the fall classes begin, so seeing how he does this summer sounds like a good plan. Since the courses planned for fall sound likes ones he's interested in, it also provides good incentive. When he makes his schedule, make sure he lists all his commitments including debate, work, family commitments, etc.. It's important for him to look ahead and see his available time. Summer courses move very quickly. Even a couple of days of slack can make a difference between being on schedule and being behind. He should expect to have work to complete between the times class meets during the week and more during the weekends.

 

If a professor's hours don't mesh with his schedule, he can always e-mail or call them to set up an appointment time outside those office hours. The professor might also direct him to the learning center/tutor for help.

 

Editing after reading your post ... I wouldn't suggest a summer physics course without excellent time management skills. JMO and YMMV

[SkateLeft]

When we decided to allow my daughter to take dual enrollment classes, we also made the decision to let her stand or fall on her own academically. From my perspective, dual enrollment is a step between high school and university. I'm still available for advice or guidance if she asks, but she had to learn to manage her time and her studies on her own. If she messed something up, she had the logical consequence of having to deal with it. She learned to communicate with her professors when she needed help or clarification.

 

I won't be there next year to help with time management, so I needed her to learn how to manage this stuff on her own. As I said, I'm here to guide or advise, but I don't work alongside my dual enrolled student. I don't ask about deadlines or syllabi, or help her schedule things out (unless she asks for advice). I did those things in middle school and high school courses, but dual enrollment is a natural progression to being completely on her own next year.

 

Once a student is equipped with the tools to succeed, then I believe it's up to them to do the work. Edited to add: So what I'm saying here is that if you feel that your son doesn't have all the tools yet (study skills, time management, etc.), then I'd focus on that. But I'd let his grades be the grades he earned, rather than grades that you coax him into, if that makes sense.

[Barbara H]

He needs to be aware that college class means that he might have to put in two hours of outside work for every hour in class, and he needs to budget for this time to keep up with his work on a continuing basis.

 

Yes, that! And depending on the class, it may be more than two hours.

 

When he's getting distracted and not managing well, I'm wondering what that looks like for him. Is he not putting enough time sitting down at the table and doing work because he's off doing other things? Or, is he sitting at the table but finding himself surfing the web, chatting with friends, etc.

[regentrude]

Since the community college only offers Arabic I and III in the fall, and II and IV, he might be better of taking that Physics over the summer and moving Arabic to the fall.

 

 

I would not advise a student who has trouble keeping up with his classes during a regular semester to take a demanding summer class. Definitely not physics, if he is having issues with math.

Just to put things into perspective:

A 4 hour class that meets 4 times for an hour during the regular semester and requires eight hours outside of class per week for 16 weeks will be condensed into an 8 week span and move twice as fast. There would be eight hours of class per week and a substantial amount of outside work. If he takes this on, he needs to be aware that this will be very time consuming and fast paced and will leave absolutely no room to slack off even for a few days.

If anything, summer classes are harder. My biggest issue is that the students have no time to let concepts sink in and absorb them slowly; they must "get it" right away.

If I had to advise a student what class to take over the summer, I'd chose something that is a basic easy to satisfy requirement and done to free up time for the regular semester, or something where the student has already mastered the material and just needs to get formal credit. But not anything that may be conceptually difficult to the student.

[AngieW in Texas]

OTOH, my dd really enjoyed doing her science class over the summer. Since she only had the one class, there were no conflicts about which thing to study for or work on. Our full summer sessions are 11 weeks rather than just 8, so they aren't quite as fast-paced as yours are.

[SarahW]

Does the college have a tutoring center of some sort?

 

Tell him to make recurring appointments there, especially for his math classes, and maybe for the others if they have tutors available, and have him schedule it in like a class.

 

A learning center is not just for "dumb" kids or students with learning disabilities. I was in the honors program at college, and a number of my fellow "honor-ees" utilized the learning center to edit our papers or help in classes we didn't feel comfortable in. Sure, we were overachievers who wanted A's in everything, but if math's not your strong suit, an hour a week at the math table getting additional explanation of how to run an equation can make doing the 3-hour homework block a bit shorter and easier, and keep you up to speed with the class. And if the school offers it, why not take advantage of it?

[regentrude]

A learning center is not just for "dumb" kids or students with learning disabilities. I was in the honors program at college, and a number of my fellow "honor-ees" utilized the learning center to edit our papers or help in classes we didn't feel comfortable in. Sure, we were overachievers who wanted A's in everything, but if math's not your strong suit, an hour a week at the math table getting additional explanation of how to run an equation can make doing the 3-hour homework block a bit shorter and easier, and keep you up to speed with the class. And if the school offers it, why not take advantage of it?

 

Good advice. I have been running learning centers for my physics courses for many years, and the students who come are the GOOD students. Maybe not the genius-smart-don't need-help ones, but most definitely the students who ended up successful. The low end students who would need it most usually do not avail themselves to these opportunities and prefer to fail.

[Cabertmom]

The good--no, great--news is that your son is seriously interested in so many things that he's willing to forgo time just to veg to take some great courses and get involved in things that will definitely be great experience for a future lawyer. That kind of motivation is not universal.

 

The bad news is that he reminds me of an adult close to me who to this day still gets into trouble time wise committing to too many things in too little time and ends up forgoing sleep to get it all done or else disappointing people when he's made commitments he can't meet. It's not a good way to live, and I'm not just talking about college but an entire lifetime here, though it's effects on college can be profound.

 

One thing to consider is whether he has some good long periods of uninterrupted time in the midst of that schedule to really study and accomplish one thing at a time. I think we are all encouraged to multitask these days, and it might make someone like your son feel like his life is exciting and important, but learning to calmly figure out the most important thing that needs to get done and then doing it is better in a lot of ways. A book that might help him (it has certainly helped me) and that our whole family uses to varying degrees is a time-management book called Getting Things Done. It is intended for adults, but your son could probably benefit as well. The whole idea is to divide up tasks into actual appointments and to-do lists that are "next action" items in a way that makes it so nothing gets lost in the shuffle. If you're interested, I can give you some more details.

[MommyThrice]

The good--no, great--news is that your son is seriously interested in so many things that he's willing to forgo time just to veg to take some great courses and get involved in things that will definitely be great experience for a future lawyer. That kind of motivation is not universal.

 

The bad news is that he reminds me of an adult close to me who to this day still gets into trouble time wise committing to too many things in too little time and ends up forgoing sleep to get it all done or else disappointing people when he's made commitments he can't meet. It's not a good way to live, and I'm not just talking about college but an entire lifetime here, though it's effects on college can be profound.

 

One thing to consider is whether he has some good long periods of uninterrupted time in the midst of that schedule to really study and accomplish one thing at a time. I think we are all encouraged to multitask these days, and it might make someone like your son feel like his life is exciting and important, but learning to calmly figure out the most important thing that needs to get done and then doing it is better in a lot of ways. A book that might help him (it has certainly helped me) and that our whole family uses to varying degrees is a time-management book called Getting Things Done. It is intended for adults, but your son could probably benefit as well. The whole idea is to divide up tasks into actual appointments and to-do lists that are "next action" items in a way that makes it so nothing gets lost in the shuffle. If you're interested, I can give you some more details.

 

Thanks. I just ordered the book. I am super organized but, somehow, it wasn't passed down in my DNA. I'm going to have my two oldest sons (and hubby) go through the book. Thank goodness the youngest takes after me. He gets it all done, then enjoys his free time.

[G5052]

I didn't micromanage, but I did this:

 

- Minimum one hour spent on each college class per day, sort-of like the mandatory study hall, but more like just part of our homeschool time. If he said he was all caught up, I'd find some review, checking answers, editing, etc., except in rare cases when he had spent a bunch of hours the evening before and had to focus on his other class now.

- I checked in with him on how class went each week. If anything had happened where he was less successful than he should've been, I made him talk to the professor (online, in-person appointment, whatever), and get what he needed (tutoring, explain to the teacher why he understood her instructions to be other than they were--which has been a legitimate problem, ask if there would be extra credit, etc.)

 

Julie

 

This is what I recommend to parents who approach me when their DC is struggling in the class I teach. If you get in the habit of doing some work in a class every day, you usually do well. I worked full-time and put myself through most of undergraduate and graduate school, and did something very similar in order to keep on top of all of my classes. I also got in the habit of working ahead because my undergraduate job had unpredictable, on-call hours at times.