The Parent Loan Trap - article about Parent Plus loans

[creekland]

Has anyone posted this yet? It's an extremely good article to consider when it comes to college funding AND there's a searchable database (look for a link on the right) that covers many colleges - not all - oldest's isn't on there, but all youngest is considering so far have been.

 

http://chronicle.com/article/The-Parent-Plus-Trap/134844

 

I'm not anti loan for college as I see it as an investment, but we do not have any parent loans so far personally... we do have one yet to head there (apps this fall).

[jennynd]

When I went to graduate school about 15 years ago, I think it was about 19k/school year tuition and fee. about now is 54k/year. I think this crazy increasing of tuition/fee needed to be stopped.

 

Those people in the article did make the choice of the school they want to attend. They did took out the loan thenselves knowing it will take a long time to pay. I am not anti-loan. But I just think people need to be responsibible for their own decision. Also they need to consider if it will pay off. I will take loan to pay my DS/DD to any expensive private Univ if they are going for Med school/engineering/business. Because I know it will pay down the road. I will not send them there for majors like teacher, theater..etc that I know they will have problem to pay their apartment after getting a job let alone the loan.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Ugh. There were so many people in that article looking to pass responsibility on to the next guy. Parents who signed up for massive loans without understanding what they were agreeing to (and I'll admit that loan paperwork can be daunting, but if it takes minutes online to apply, then I'm going to say you haven't really considered the effect it will have on your budget). Students who want what they want, because it's their dream school. College officials who are looking for ways of gettng more cash (they get the tuition dollars, even if the parent later defaults on the loan). A government agency that isn't doing enough oversight on the program to be able to say what percentage of loans issued are for situations that never result in a degree (let alone the job situation of those students 5-10 years after graduation).

 

And part of the proposed solution is for the government to issue more grants???

 

I'm going to say that it isn't my job to make my kids' dreams come true. Sometimes in life you get what you dreamed of, usually through years and decades of hard work and sacrifice. Often you never reach that dreamed of position. (The most recent selection board for the rank of Captain/Colonel in my husband's specialty had about a 1/5 chance of selection. That meant there were a lot of people who had spent two decades in the military, many of them doing multiple deployments, doing hard jobs and completing the required career milestones who were not picked.) Sometimes you get to the point where you can look around and see where you are and what got you there and realize that while it's not what you dreamed, it's actually something better.

 

If my kids decide that they want to enter a high competition profession like the arts or design, then they need to be honest about how likely it is that they will make it into the big time. Taking out huge predatory loans in order to gamble on an acting career makes about as much sense to me as taking it to a casino. Probably better to get some hot plumbing skills to keep them going.

[SarahW]

When I went to my private LAC I went into the Finaid office to see if they could manage to squeeze in some more money for future semesters. My counselor went straight to the shelf of forms and picked up a Parents PLUS application. I laughed. Then I left.

 

Even if my parents could have afforded a loan of a couple grand (which is all I was looking for) I'm glad we never went that route. I'm now in consolidation and structured repayment. Having a PLUS loan in there would have screwed up everything.

[Gwen in VA]

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/how_colleges_scam_the_working_class_5CTSoy7N15y5OBV59osUZL

 

This is a related article talking about how colleges accept unprepared students and then, unsurprisingly, the students drop out. Definite food for thought.....

[In The Great White North]

In the second article linked, I found this quote and was wondering what score they considered to be "college-ready"?

 

In 2012, for instance,of the 250,000 who took the ACT (the main alternative to the SAT), only 52 percent scored as college-ready in reading, only a quarter as ready in reading, English, math and science.

[creekland]

Ugh. There were so many people in that article looking to pass responsibility on to the next guy. Parents who signed up for massive loans without understanding what they were agreeing to (and I'll admit that loan paperwork can be daunting, but if it takes minutes online to apply, then I'm going to say you haven't really considered the effect it will have on your budget). Students who want what they want, because it's their dream school. ...

 

This is why I think it's good to alert folks to articles like this, so hopefully, they have a chance to learn/think/consider (whatever word) these things BEFORE signing up.

 

I think the tide is starting to change and people are starting to wake up, but each year there are "new" parents coming into the college picture. Each year these points need to be made so folks can learn from others mistakes (or NOT blame others for their lack of knowledge regarding debt and dream schools).

[Sebastian (a lady)]

 

This is why I think it's good to alert folks to articles like this, so hopefully, they have a chance to learn/think/consider (whatever word) these things BEFORE signing up.

 

I think the tide is starting to change and people are starting to wake up, but each year there are "new" parents coming into the college picture. Each year these points need to be made so folks can learn from others mistakes (or NOT blame others for their lack of knowledge regarding debt and dream schools).

 

And part of the issue is the debate over what college ought to be, ought to provide for its students. Is it a place of intellectual exploration, a place where habits of mind are formed, great and challenging works wrestled with and preconceptions are challenged? Or is it a place where you equip yourself for an adult life that includes employment in the field of your choice?

 

Is it irresponsible to jettison as the scribblings of dead white males the classics of the West? Is it appropriate to focus so strongly on multiculturalism that graduates don't have familiarity with the underpinnings of the US? (Would a university in Russia or Germany or Italy boast of tossing out Tolstoy or Goethe or Dante?) Ought you be able to graduate without a course in US history? Or general World history?

 

If it's about prepping for a job, then the value of the job ought to relate in some way to the cost of the degree. Outsized loans for a degree that doesn't leave one particularly prepared for the world of work don't seem like a wise investment.

 

I'm not saying that there has to be absolute correspondence between degree and profession. I graduated with a BS in English (not a typo) and spent six years as an active duty naval officer. I wasn't doing literary criticsm, but I was using the research skills to figure out what on earth was wrong with the boiler feed pump. And I had several captains complement my on how well written my casualty report messages were. (On the other hand, I paid for that BS in English with a five year post graduation work committment.) But it does seem like a lot of people approach college choices with the same attitudes they take in making choices about their wedding (or maybe prom?). It's their big moment and anything that stands between them and the fantasy image they have must be done away with. There needs to be a little more sober thinking about what parts of college are important and how into hock it is worth going.

[regentrude]

The answer is on the ACT website:

ACT College Readiness Benchmarks

The benchmarks are scores on the ACT subject-area tests that represent the level of achievement required for students to have a 50% chance of obtaining a B or higher or about a 75% chance of obtaining a C or higher in corresponding credit-bearing first-year college courses. These college courses include English composition, college algebra, introductory social science courses, and biology. Based on a nationally representative sample of 98 institutions and more than 90,000 students, the Benchmarks are median course placement values for these institutions and as such represent a typical set of expectations. The ACT College Readiness Benchmarks are:

College Course ACT Subject-Area

 

English Composition English 18

 

College Algebra Mathematics 22

 

Social Sciences Reading 21

 

Biology Science 24

 

 

Is anybody else disturbed by this statement? An 18 on the ACT in English is obtainable by a halfway literate middle schooler. If the average college English composition course is designed so that this student gets a B or C, the expectations are abysmally low.

 

(Aside from the fact that it is nonsense to predict any science ability form the ACT science section...)

[regentrude]

The Post isnt a terribly well respected source.

 

 

But as a college instructor, their report meshes well with my experience.

My colleagues in the English department report that 25% of the freshmen possess inadequate reading comprehension.

(And this is a four year university, not community college.)

[TravelingChris]

But it isn't absurd to expect someone to be able to read and interpret scientific writing and graphs at the level on the ACT test in order to pass a non major science class. I know that getting a 22 on math and a 24 on science is not good enough to be a scoence major, most likely. However, those scores are what is needed to be able to take a non major class in the subject that is not remedial for a freshman class. Most colleges do require a course or two in science for non majors. In order to do well in a class like that, being able to do the ACT science test seems a reasonable facsimile. After all, those classes are usually pretty basic but still require skills such as reading science texts and interpreting science graphs and charts.

 

Now my son who did take non major science in college found it incredibly easy, compared to my high school science. He was surprised that so many thought it was hard. I don't remember what he got in Science on the ACT but it was above a 24.

[regentrude]

But it isn't absurd to expect someone to be able to read and interpret scientific writing and graphs at the level on the ACT test in order to pass a non major science class. I know that getting a 22 on math and a 24 on science is not good enough to be a scoence major, most likely. However, those scores are what is needed to be able to take a non major class in the subject that is not remedial for a freshman class.

 

I find that none of the skills tested on the ACT science sections have much to do with the potential for success of students in introductory science classes for non-majors. The non major students who struggle in my intro physics classes do so because they are lacking in math skills. Being able to read a passage and interpret graphs like on the test plays very little role in the entire course, and their ability to ace the science section neither predicts success in their class nor does an inability to do well on the science section predicts failure. It has absolutely nothing to do with the skills they need to have to be successful.

 

In order to do well in a class like that, being able to do the ACT science test seems a reasonable facsimile. After all, those classes are usually pretty basic but still require skills such as reading science texts and interpreting science graphs and charts.

 

Not really. Students have highly predigested textbooks with lots of pictures, colored boxes and they are usually not even reading the textbook, but relying on even further digested lecture notes. Not until the upper level courses for majors are they required to read original scientific literature, understand consecutive passages, interpret graphs.

 

Also very important: there is no time pressure. The task to skim a passage and quickly answer questions about the data is a very artificial one; a diligent student confronted with a scientific text will take his time, high light and annotate the text, then try to understand the graphs. I see no resemblance in the ACT science section with any task that my students - both majors and non majors- have to complete in their introductory classes.

 

Maybe the situation is different in bio or chem, but from what I see, I am not convinced.

[regentrude]

Is the ACT a regional thing? It doesn't get talked about around here.

 

It seems to be more popular i the Midwest, whereas the SAT is more prevalent on the coasts. (At our university, only 5% of students have taken the SAT)

I have not yet found a university that did not accept either.

[Barbara H]

Is the ACT a regional thing? It doesn't get talked about around here.

 

While the ACT was traditionally more popular in the Midwest and South, it is fast gaining popularity all over the country - more testers last year than the SAT for the first time. Several states (Illinois, Kentucky, North Carolina, Michigan, Tennessee, etc.) now require all public school students take the ACT. All colleges equally accept both tests so it is to the advantage of students to take a careful practice with each test and see which one will result in a better score for them. One test isn't easier than the other - about a third do better on the SAT, a third on the ACT, and a third about the same.

[lisabees]

Deleted. Done with my rant. ;)

[8filltheheart]

I find that none of the skills tested on the ACT science sections have much to do with the potential for success of students in introductory science classes for non-majors. The non major students who struggle in my intro physics classes do so because they are lacking in math skills. Being able to read a passage and interpret graphs like on the test plays very little role in the entire course, and their ability to ace the science section neither predicts success in their class nor does an inability to do well on the science section predicts failure. It has absolutely nothing to do with the skills they need to have to be successful.

 

 

 

Not really. Students have highly predigested textbooks with lots of pictures, colored boxes and they are usually not even reading the textbook, but relying on even further digested lecture notes. Not until the upper level courses for majors are they required to read original scientific literature, understand consecutive passages, interpret graphs.

 

Also very important: there is no time pressure. The task to skim a passage and quickly answer questions about the data is a very artificial one; a diligent student confronted with a scientific text will take his time, high light and annotate the text, then try to understand the graphs. I see no resemblance in the ACT science section with any task that my students - both majors and non majors- have to complete in their introductory classes.

 

Maybe the situation is different in bio or chem, but from what I see, I am not convinced.

 

I agree 100%. The science reasoning score has been my 2 ds's lowest score.......consistently. One is a chemical engineer who graduated near the very top of his class and the other made a 5 on the AP chem test as a 10th grader and extremely high As in university cal-based physics courses this yr as an 11th grader. Why are their science scores the lowest? It certainly has nothing to do with science aptitude. They are both dyslexic and slow readers. You would think their reading and English scores would be lower, but they aren't. Why? B/c the science reasoning test requires a lot of reading quickly at the end of a long "reading quickly" test. The science reasoning test is far more of a "reading quickly" test than a science ability test. Even as a "reading quickly test" it serves zero purpose as an indicator of ability since both of them are extremely successful students (and professional.)

 

ETA: as far as the article, we are a family that refuses to take loans to fund college. My kids only qualify for the student loans which start accruing interest the day they are taken out......which are another incredibly poor option. Let's have interest accrue for 4 yrs before you start paying off the loan??? Our kids have no option but to select schools they can afford to attend. We aren't bankrupting ourselves for their education and there are too many of them for us to even consider paying for all of them to go through college. We help with small amts, but definitely not for dream schools.

[creekland]

So, so sad. So, so frustrating.

 

:iagree: It is so hard to see people make really bad decisions. It's one thing when one can afford stuff (anything), but when one can't afford something and they are spending WAY too much for what they are getting, it's downright frustrating.

 

I agree 100%. The science reasoning score has been my 2 ds's lowest score.......consistently.

 

The Science section of the ACT is the one section that majorly thwarted middle son's perfection attempts... his highest on it was a 32. Yet he's now a Brain & Cognitive (or Neuro - he hasn't decided) major having had 5 science classes at a Top 30 college maintaining a 4.0 average. It boggles my mind (and his) that science was his "problem." He is not super quick with reading, yet that didn't stop him on English or Reading. Eh - whatever.

 

Overall though, the ACT is now the #1 most taken test over the SAT and the ONLY correlations I've ever seen that show scores and predicted actual college success comes from the ACT Math section and engineering majors.

 

However, to get in to many colleges and to get decent $$, high scores definitely help.

 

The low college readiness scores are rather mind boggling.

[Barbara H]

 

 

Sorry I am rambling. Every day I hear from these two. Every day I urge him to go to CC. All he cares about is going to a prestigious art school. And all she cares about is making his dreams come true. I tell her it's not her job.

 

 

You've given them good advice and what a shame that they won't listen.

 

What I think parents sometimes miss is the big picture. It is not giving your child their "dream" to leave them with a parent who is destitute when they are elderly. College is 5% of your life if you are lucky. Yes, that's important but not so important as to leave your parents financially insecure for the rest of their lives. Risks like job loss and disability are real - going into that with a pile of debt that can't be discharged in the case of bankruptcy is not giving your child a dream.

 

Maybe the first adult lesson needs to be that there are many paths to being successful in adult life and few shortcuts to get there. Most of us don't get every "dream" we have and if we did we'd probably find out lots of them weren't a very good idea. Let's just say I'm glad I don't have the hair I wished for when I was 18, back in 1983. Dreams change as we mature - fortunately.