Dyslexia while solid reader?

[jetzmama]

Had 9yo evaluated by a Wilson specialist b/c of spelling issues and occasional reversals. Reading has been a struggle in the past, but has really taken off over the last few months. Writing continues to be a struggle, partly b/c of spelling. The evaluation I was given has child several grades ahead in reading, yet a dx of dyslexia was made. I agree with this based on multiple other symptoms (though may be partially a right brain issue, too), but am unsure how to help my child since most of the programs have such a heavy reading focus. The Wilson specialist will be nearly $8K by the time the set number of sessions are complete, so I'd like to try to do this at home and keep most of those greenbacks! I've read the threads comparing Barton and Wilson, but not sure if a solid reader still starts at the beginning. Appreciate any thoughts.

[jetzmama]

FWIW, there is a Wilson training session in my area coming soon. Pricey, but a bargain compared to tutoring... even after purchasing the teacher/student kit! (And still a bargain over Barton, too). Any ideas on whether approaching Wilson in this way might be more beneficial, or on another program, would be great. Thanks.

[jetzmama]

FWIW, there is a Wilson training session in my area coming soon. Pricey, but a bargain compared to tutoring... even after purchasing the teacher/student kit! (And still a bargain over Barton, too). Any ideas on whether approaching Wilson in this way might be more beneficial, or on another program, would be great. Thanks.

[3monkeys]

Have you ruled out vision problems? My son has a lot of the same symptoms as yours and was dx with convergence insuffiency. Basically his eyes are not working together properly and also causes double vision when he fatigues. The actual definition is an eye coordination disorder in which eyes do not adjust to near vision adequately. He is 9 and never said a word about double vision. The brain compensates so well and they don't even know their vision is off. One of the tests given was a visual motor integration and he scored at a 6year old level. That explains his writing issue! Another test was visual memory and he was at a 7 year old level. Hopefully that explains his spelling issue. We just started vision therapy and I have high hopes! BTW, these tests are not done by a regular eye doctor. You need to find a COVD. I've always suspected dyslexia in my son but my thoughts are if he does have it, correcting his vision can only help and make his learning easier. I count my blessing he is reading...that is half the battle!

[kentuckymom]

If it IS dyslexia, yes, I think it's worthwhile to start at the beginning of whatever program you choose. My son is going through Barton at a tutoring center. They frequently get students in upper elementary, middle school, high school, (even a handful of adults) who read competently but slowly and can't spell to save their lives. These students generally fly through the early levels, but the information still helps them. My son (who started at the end of kindergarten and wasn't really reading) will probably take 3 1/2 years to get through Barton. The older students I mentioned usually take about 18 months.

 

FWIW, both my younger brother and my husband have very clear dyslexic traits, but were never diagnosed. Dh learned to read in school late in first grade and always read more slowly than average and struggled with spelling. He remembers reading only half the passages on reading comprehension tests and then just putting random answers for the other half. That got him a better score than he'd get if he tried to read everything and didn't finish. I'm encouraging to put himself through an OG program to improve his reading speed and spelling, but he doesn't want to take the time. My brother struggled to learn to read and my mom kept telling the school that she thought he was dyslexic, but they just blew her off. Quite suddenly, halfway through second grade, something clicked in his brain and he moved from the lowest to the highest reading group in the space of a week. Even with the increased reading ability, however, he didn't enjoy reading. My mom read all of his books for book reports, etc, to him through middle school. As an adult he does enjoy reading, but he's still a horrible speller. DH is a successful engineer, and my brother just finished a PhD, so they've managed to be successful adults without intervention, but I can see how intervention would have helped both of them.

[PeterPan]

Seems like a kind of biased source to go to the $8K wilson tutor to ask if they need the expensive therapy. You want to compare what this tutor is saying to the DSM. http://www.ldhope.co.../dyslexia.htm

 

 

According to the American Psychiatric Association, the diagnostic criteria for Reading Disorder (Dyslexia) are as follows (DSM-IV, 1994):

Reading achievement, as measured by individually administered standardized tests of reading accuracy or comprehension, is substantially below that expected given the person's chronological age, measured intelligence, and age-appropriate education.

The disturbance in Criterion A significantly interferes with academic achievement or activities of daily living that require reading skills.

 

I'd get his vision checked by a developmental optometrist and get a proper eval by a psych who can administer a CTOPP, etc. etc. Any dc who is struggling might improve with OG-style tutoring. That doesn't mean they were dyslexic, and it certain didn't mean they need ****$8K**** in tutoring. Make sure you know what you're fixing before you fix it.

 

To find a developmental optometrist, go to COVD.

[Lecka]

What are her spelling errors like? Are they like, letters are missing, or letters are added that should not be there, or letters are not in the right order? For any of those, I would start with Level 1 of Barton (or similar). If the errors are more like spelling words phonetically correct but not the right way, I think you have a few options, depending on how bad it is and stuff. I think going through a reading program, in that case, is one option but one of several options. If that is the case I think you could focus on spelling, though. And ----- if it is the first case, if it improves early in the reading program, as it really might, then I don't think you have to complete the reading program, I think you could switch to spelling. I also think you could try a spelling program to try to get the same benefit (maybe like AAS). If you go through her writing and just write down her errors maybe you will see a pattern.

[Lecka]

Also you don't say the age or how occasional the reversals are. Can she recognize it is wrong and fix it herself, if you point it out? I would not worry too much, that is a point that is a goal for a lot of kids, maybe the last 5% of improvement is not worth being a stickler about. If it is more often and causing trouble, then OT is also an option for it, maybe a better option than addressing it through a reading program --- the tutor might be able to tell you what she has seen with kids she has worked with. I have picked OT for now and have a choice between VT and OT ---- right now going with OT. My son's handwriting is really pretty poor, though, I would describe it as frequent reversals and inability to identify errors he has made. He cannot look at the right and wrong example and pick the right one... or couldn't, OT is helping. Not to say that Wilson would not be a good option, and really might help with reversals also. I think the tutor could tell you if it is likely, based on other kids she has worked with. edit: Looking at a pp, my son also has a low score for visual-motor integration, but b/c of what his other low scores are and some other factors (my sanity being one), we are addressing it through OT at present. His other low scores are more something OT would address than VT, and she does also work on visual-motor integration and tracking. If he does not show improvement on those, then VT is the next option. We could have tried VT first or at the same time but this is what seems good overall.

[wapiti]

I'd get his vision checked by a developmental optometrist and get a proper eval by a psych who can administer a CTOPP, etc. etc. Any dc who is struggling might improve with OG-style tutoring. That doesn't mean they were dyslexic, and it certain didn't mean they need ****$8K**** in tutoring. Make sure you know what you're fixing before you fix it.

 

To find a developmental optometrist, go to COVD.

 

:iagree: with all of this!!

 

FWIW, there could be any number of issues which may or may not be "dyslexia."

 

As an example of the random mix a person can have, I have a ds who reads very well, has had vision issues ruled out by the COVD, and does NOT have dyslexia. However, he has a dyslexic processing style (basically, VSL). He has a minor language processing "glitch" according to testing with the SLP (auditory reasoning and comprehension, which includes making inferences) and slow processing speed, motor-wise (a handwriting issue), according to the testing with the psych.

 

I'm personally inclined to stay away from dyslexia "specialists" who aren't members of a profession (professionals would include a psych/neuropsych, eye doc, SLP, etc.). I wouldn't get near the 8k people with a ten-foot pole. 8k would buy a whole lot of other stuff that, IMO, should be carefully targeted to very specific diagnoses/weaknesses.

[Lecka]

Well, I think they provide a service for people who don't want to do Barton at home, frex. Or someone whose children are going to work better with a non-parent while also being maybe belligerent and difficult. I don't think it is something I would go for either, personally, but I think it is a legitimate thing. edit: Oh, I think for diagnosis, I would look for a diagnosis from a specialist who could give targeted advice, too. I agree on that. If that person recommends the Wilson tutoring as the best course of action, that is a different thing, than the Wilson tutor doing that. But I have had times I wished a tutor was an option for us.

[PeterPan]

Oh I'm not saying Wilson is not good. I'm just saying the tutor is not an objective, disinterested evaluator. She stands to make $8K off her recommendation. Many people can get a psych eval for a reasonable price if they have insurance coverage. If you pay for it straight, in our area it's $1500. That's still a fraction of the price of $8K in therapy, and you come out with ALL the parameters (working memory, processing speed, other things that need referrals, etc.).

[Heathermomster]

I know women personally that have taken the Wilson teaching course and used the materials with their own children. DH and I could afford the tutoring so we opted to pay. At that time, I didn't have the confidence to teach my son; of course, all that has changed now. I feel the tutor in some ways eased the relationship between DS and myself, and I'm absolutely thankful for that. Reading is only step one when dealing with a dyslexic child.

 

I like Wilson. My son completed through book 10. Last summer, one of my O-G trained and certified Wilson tutor friends tested DS and told me that DS didn't really need to complete books 11 and 12, so we dropped Wilson. DS still struggles with spelling and rules of grammar but has tested very high with reading comprehension since 5th grade. He reads and listens to audio books at an accelerated speed to keep up with assignments.

 

With Wilson, you start from the beginning and work your way up.

 

After a COVD.org developmental eye examine, you could hire an O-G tutor that specifically targets your child's weaknesses with spelling. There are also several effective home school spelling programs that you can explore. Ultimately, you and your spouse will make the best decision for your family.

 

ETA. A full NP report from a tester, who likes and has experience with gifted children, is worth its weight in gold.

[jetzmama]

What a wealth of information you guys are! I didn't have peace even from the time of the evaluation. When I was called and tutoring sessions were scheduled, I asked a few more questions regarding price, duration of tutoring, and the home educator training advertised on the website. The training was the reason I was interested in this place to start... So I could learn how to teach my differently wired son. The training question was deflected repeatedly, but when I later sat down to add the cost of 2 sessions/wk for 18 mos, it did come to nearly 8k.

 

I would never have thought to ask about VT, and have never heard of COVD. It seems odd to me that a place concerned about helping children would not even ask if we had explored these options. Seems that should be part of a comprehensive evaluation.

 

Sessions are not scheduled until May, so that allows plenty of time to look into your suggestions and get some professional medical folks to evaluate, too. Spelling really is the biggest problem. I've learned that a written spelling quiz is painful unless an oral version of the quiz is given earlier on the day. Oral spelling is fair. Written just doesn't click. If a picture is associated with a word, there is a better chance of spelling it correctly later.

 

When I asked the evaluator if he might have dysgraphia she only responded, "Possibly," and indicated they would work on that as needed in their sessions.

 

thankful for your objective, experienced input! Getting to work on these new leads...

[PeterPan]

Jetz, you need to be WAY more cynical... So a place that *could* teach you as a homeschooler to do it yourself works really hard to *avoid* doing that, choses *not* to give you referrals or more thorough information, and then oh yeah tells you you better drop *$8K* or your kid will never spell?!?! (I know they probably didn't say that, but I'm pointing out that they can prey on your fears.)

 

Might even be a legitimate diagnosis, but they point is they CAN'T diagnose. They aren't psychs, are they? If they're psychs, why no processing speed, CTOPP, working memory, etc. etc.? Oh, because then you can't discriminate and realize a less expensive solution might have worked. ;)

 

Be really careful on this one. That's a TON of cash to go dropping.

 

Btw, if you're wanting to learn Wilson, have you already tried some OG methods? It's not hard to learn... Compliance, time to implement, health of the mom, sure there are lots of reasons for hiring a tutor. I'm just saying if you want to learn it, you can.

[wapiti]

Oh I'm not saying Wilson is not good. I'm just saying the tutor is not an objective, disinterested evaluator. She stands to make $8K off her recommendation. Many people can get a psych eval for a reasonable price if they have insurance coverage. If you pay for it straight, in our area it's $1500. That's still a fraction of the price of $8K in therapy, and you come out with ALL the parameters (working memory, processing speed, other things that need referrals, etc.).

 

 

:iagree:

 

Assuming the Wilson evaluator is not a psych, they wouldn't be diagnosing officially under the DSM, so the eval wouldn't count for accommodation-paper-trail purposes, AFAIK. In addition, there's that whole slew of other possible issues that should be considered in the bigger picture. It would make more sense to me to see a psych (who may turn up other issues in addition to or instead of the dyslexia) and then, after receiving a dyslexia diagnosis, consider the tutor.

 

ETA. A full NP report from a tester, who likes and has experience with gifted children, is worth its weight in gold.

 

 

:iagree:

 

Sessions are not scheduled until May, so that allows plenty of time to look into your suggestions and get some professional medical folks to evaluate, too.

 

 

FWIW, it can take quite some time to get into a good psych though hopefully it's a good time of year for that. I would do that first before agreeing to pay for any sessions. The COVD should be quicker to get an appointment with than the psych.

 

So I could learn how to teach my differently wired son

 

 

There are other resources for that, though it helps to know how, exactly, he's differently wired (via neuropsych testing). I'd check out books like The Dyslexic Advantage, Freed's Right Brained Children, Silverman's Upside-Down Brilliance and website, etc. Those are the first that come to my mind though there are others.

[Heathermomster]

DS received a dyslexia diagnosis from a disinterested 3rd party and then we used the tutor associated with his private school. The tutor was Wilson certified and requested DS receive np testing. DS was 8 yo and received a dyslexia/dyscalculia/dysgraphia diagnosis from the np after three days of testing.

 

DS used Wilson for 5 full years and still struggles with spelling. No program can guarantee to correct spelling. While in the classroom, DS would test after reviewing words throughout the week and get a 100%. The following week, there was no certainty that he'd remember them..

 

I write all of this to say, prepare to pay for np testing after getting the eyes checked.

[EKS]

Google "stealth dyslexia" to see if it fits.

 

Also, if you haven't already, you might want to get a developmental vision exam as vision problems can mimic some aspects of dyslexia and can be fixed.

 

Things that helped my dyslexic son after his reading took off: Sequential Spelling, All About Spelling, REWARDS, reading aloud from easy books for fluency, keyboarding, the IEW keyword outline technique for writing, and just *lots* of practice with writing in general. It's been a long haul, but he is now able to write competently when it's about something he knows well.

[EKS]

The other thing that's important is that even if a dyslexic child tests as several grades ahead in reading, you're still going to want to systematically push their reading level higher--even in high school--by assigning books (and leaving books around) that are just a bit harder than the last one they read.

[PeterPan]

The other thing that's important is that even if a dyslexic child tests as several grades ahead in reading, you're still going to want to systematically push their reading level higher--even in high school--by assigning books (and leaving books around) that are just a bit harder than the last one they read.

 

 

Hey EKS, you want to talk about this some more? Put some shoe leather on it for me on the high school side... What did this look like in your house?

[EKS]

 

Hey EKS, you want to talk about this some more? Put some shoe leather on it for me on the high school side... What did this look like in your house?

 

 

For reference, from grade 4 on, my son scored at the 99th percentile in reading comprehension (GE 13+) on the ITBS.

 

Once he was reading well enough to enjoy it, I gave him a pile of books for free reading to choose from. Each time I replenished the pile, I added harder books. I did this from grades 3-5 or so. At that same time I deliberately chose to assign books for school that were below his reading level (and didn't assign any in grade 3). Here is an example of his reading progression in grades 3-5:

 

The Boxcar Children (beginning of grade 3)

Harry Potter (end of grade 3)

Charlie Bone (beginning of grade 4)

Wizard of Earthsea (end of grade 4)

The Time Machine (end of grade 5)

 

Then in 6th grade, I assigned The Lord of the Rings, which was at his challenge level. I don't have good records of his free reading from that year.

 

In 7th grade I started assigning high school/adult level material and stopped worrying about what he did for free reading. Some examples from 7th grade:

 

The Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglass

Animal Farm

Lord of the Flies

To Kill a Mockingbird

Longitude (adult level nonfiction)

Salt (adult level nonfiction)

Fast Food Nation (adult level nonfiction)

 

Examples for 8th grade:

 

The Scarlet Letter

Uncle Tom's Cabin

The Great Gatsby

1491 (adult level nonfiction)

Pale Blue Dot (adult level nonfiction)

 

Examples for 9th grade:

 

Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde

The Invisible Man (Wells)

1984

The Scientists (adult level nonfiction)

 

Then he went to a b&m school halfway through 9th grade and I lost control of his reading. Now he is in 10th grade and attending college full time.

 

I think it is *extremely important* to make sure kids are reading challenging nonfiction as well as good classic literature. We also started using a mix of high school and college level textbooks in 7th grade. I read most of these aloud but designed questions/activities that forced him to essentially have to read the text again to complete them.

[FairProspects]

EKS - did you use audio for these books or did he have to read them alone? How long did that take?

 

Ds has such issues with visual crowding and reads so slowly, I'm not sure if he will be able to read chapter books without large print, even though the fluency is getting better.

[RamonaQ]

EKS - did you use audio for these books or did he have to read them alone? How long did that take?

 

Ds has such issues with visual crowding and reads so slowly, I'm not sure if he will be able to read chapter books without large print, even though the fluency is getting better.

 

 

 

Have you tried an e-Reader (Kindle, iPad, Nook, Android tablet, etc..) and increased the font, line spacing and margins. This has helped my ds (as well as the other kids I tutor) tremendously.

[EKS]

EKS - did you use audio for these books or did he have to read them alone? How long did that take?

 

 

The books I listed were books he read on his own and are just a small sampling of what he read each year. I'm not sure how to answer how long it took--he takes him about 2-3 times as long as it should to read difficult text.

[FairProspects]

 

 

Have you tried an e-Reader (Kindle, iPad, Nook, Android tablet, etc..) and increased the font, line spacing and margins. This has helped my ds (as well as the other kids I tutor) tremendously.

 

I haven't yet, but this is one of the things I plan to start soon once we get ds reading more familiar titles I can easily get in e-reader format. Right now he likes to read enyclopedias like Eyewitness books and magazines or juvenile non-fiction like books on WWII and I have a hard time finding those in digital print.

 

The books I listed were books he read on his own and are just a small sampling of what he read each year. I'm not sure how to answer how long it took--he takes him about 2-3 times as long as it should to read difficult text.

 

I guess this gets more to my question. Do you feel it was more valuable to have him read fewer assigned titles himself at a slower pace than to read more titles faster with audio? Did he use audiobooks in addition or for pleasure reading? I'm trying to figure out that balance.

 

I'm deciding if I should be teach ds to complete his assigned reading on audio and let him work on reading as a subject from books that pique his interest or just require him to read the assigned reading.

[EKS]

I guess this gets more to my question. Do you feel it was more valuable to have him read fewer assigned titles himself at a slower pace than to read more titles faster with audio? Did he use audiobooks in addition or for pleasure reading? I'm trying to figure out that balance.

 

My son never listened to audiobooks, but I figure my reading aloud is the equivalent of an audiobook. Here is a breakdown of how many books he read himself vs how many I read to him (assume novel length unless otherwise indicated):

 

Grade 3

For pleasure: 36

Assigned: 13 read aloud to me, 10 silent reading (picture book length, well under his reading level)

Read aloud by me: 50 (more than half were picture book length)

 

Grade 4

For pleasure: 31

Assigned: 12

Read aloud by me: 70 (about a quarter were picture book length)

 

Grade 5

For pleasure: 17

Assigned: 13

Read aloud by me: 60 (about a quarter were picture book length)

 

Grade 6 and 7: My records are not so good for these years.

 

Grade 8

No record of what he read for pleasure. It started going down significantly in this period.

Assigned: 12

Read aloud by me: 6 plus textbooks

 

Grade 9 (this wasn't a full year at home)

Assigned: 8

Read aloud by me: 5 plus textbooks

[Heathermomster]

 

 

My son never listened to audiobooks, but I figure my reading aloud is the equivalent of an audiobook. Here is a breakdown of how many books he read himself vs how many I read to him (assume novel length unless otherwise indicated):

 

Grade 3

For pleasure: 36

Assigned: 13 read aloud to me, 10 silent reading (picture book length, well under his reading level)

Read aloud by me: 50 (more than half were picture book length)

 

Grade 4

For pleasure: 31

Assigned: 12

Read aloud by me: 70 (about a quarter were picture book length)

 

Grade 5

For pleasure: 17

Assigned: 13

Read aloud by me: 60 (about a quarter were picture book length)

 

Grade 6 and 7: My records are not so good for these years.

 

Grade 8

No record of what he read for pleasure. It started going down significantly in this period.

Assigned: 12

Read aloud by me: 6 plus textbooks

 

Grade 9 (this wasn't a full year at home)

Assigned: 8

Read aloud by me: 5 plus textbooks

 

Kai, what did you use for teaching writing? Also, what has been your approach for literary analysis and grammar?

[EKS]

Kai, what did you use for teaching writing? Also, what has been your approach for literary analysis and grammar?

 

First, I want to say that what I did with my dyslexic student is not what I would recommend for another dyslexic student because I was mucking about in the dark much of the time with him.

 

What we did for grammar:

 

3rd grade: Winston

4th grade: Hake 6

5th grade: Hake 8

6th grade: Daily Grams

7th grade: Grammar Voyage

8th grade: Nothing

9th grade: Jensen's Punctuation

 

If I had it to do over again, this is what I'd do:

 

Once kid is reading well...

Grammar Island

Grammar Town

Hake 6 (over two years if necessary)

Grammar Voyage

Hake 8 (over two years if necessary)

Magic Lens 1

 

What we did for writing:

 

1st grade: Nothing

2nd grade: I acted as scribe and he copied selected pieces

3rd grade: I acted as scribe for an outline and he wrote from the outline

4th grade: IEW's keyword outline technique

5th grade: Druidawn writing club

6th grade: Report writing on topics we studied--also started using the keyboard to compose

7th grade: Report writing on topics we studied

8th grade: Essay writing using Jane Schaffer's program

9th grade: I attempted to afterschool writing, or tutor him in it or something, but the school didn't assign enough writing for this to be effective.

10th grade: He is currently taking a college composition course, but it's early on, so I don't know how well it's going.

 

If I had it to do over again, this is what I'd do:

 

1st grade: HWT only

2nd grade: Very short copywork and dictation selections

3rd grade and up: I'd probably try Step Up to Writing.

[FairProspects]

Can I ask what Hake contains that MCT does not? Why isn't Practice Town enough for grammar?

[EKS]

Can I ask what Hake contains that MCT does not? Why isn't Practice Town enough for grammar?

 

 

Hake contains a *ton* of stuff that's not in MCT (at least not in MCT through ML1). Diagramming, extensive practice with mechanics (capitalization, punctuation, etc), and more complicated sentences are some of the major things that come to mind. They complement each other well. MCT does a beautiful job giving the big picture and Hake fills in the details.

[jetzmama]

CTOPP, working memory, processing speed... All new language to me. After reading about some of this, I've finally realized the difficulties he has are all related to sequencing. Found some exercises to do with him online until our appt with a real professional.

 

Will be interesting to see how the tutoring service responds to some of my new questions after I have time to research some of this over the weekend. Thanks again for all your help!

 

 

[EKS]

Kai, what did you use for teaching writing? Also, what has been your approach for literary analysis and grammar?

 

 

Sorry, I forgot to deal with literary analysis in the last post. Probably mostly because literary analysis for my dyslexic son was a total flop.

 

The best year we had with that was when he was in 6th and 7th grades and we did the literature part of K12's English courses intended for grades 7 and 8. In 8th grade we did an American literature course that I pulled together myself and he managed to write several quasi literary analysis papers. I say quasi because several of them didn't deal with true literary analysis. At that point I was happy to have *any* sort of analysis.

 

When my son went to private school, his English teachers apparently were happy with his contributions to discussions, which I found amazing because he would never open his mouth at home.

 

He is thrilled that the only real English course he has to take in is program at the CC is Comp I, an essay writing course. Then he can take a technical writing course instead of Comp II and no literature courses are required!

 

Now, I have to say, that even though we didn't do a lot of formal analysis, and what we did was mostly me having a discussion with myself, he *was* exposed to *tons* of classic literature, which I think is probably the most important thing for a kid like him.

[PeterPan]

Just as a total aside and to rabbit trail from EKS's interesting experiences, I've kind of watched with wonder at this fascination with "literary analysis" on the high school board. Most of the papers I've seen there aren't very good, and I'm not sure that EKS's experiences are necessarily simply because he's dyslexic. It just seems to me there's this astounding push to analysis when the kids aren't really prepped with discuss or pre-written analysis skills. (No disrespect to EKS intended, since I'm assuming discussing with him was like pulling ears on a mule, btdt.) I sure don't remember writing heavy literary analysis papers in 9th or 10th and CERTAINLY not in 8th. Now by 11th, yes, I was actually having thoughts. So there you're first asking what's even developmentally appropriate, whether the dc even HAS those analytical thoughts going on.

 

Then you back up and ask if he has a pool of experiences and thoughts and exposures to draw from. My dd seems to do better when she's getting exposed to lots of pieces that she can then, a some point LATER, pull together. In a more typical situation you have a dc who reads a book and is commanded to think about it from a certain angle and analyze now, because the teacher said so. But if you were to back off, read a number of pieces from a genre or pattern or along a them, let the dc's brain start noticing the patterns, then maybe he'd HAVE something to discuss and write.

 

I don't think SN (dyslexic, adhd, right-brained kids with sometimes very high IQs) are simply going to be content with simple regurgitation style analysis (here's the book, read it and look for this element, now write a paper on it). That doesn't take advantage of their ability to take diverse sources and notice connections and see more sophisticated patterns.

 

And of course this is where the rubber hits the road for me, in our house, because I'm planning 9th and thinking through how to handle this. I have NOT required her to write such papers, and I don't regret it. I see the seeds of mature thinking when she comes to me trying to figure out why different books are similar. So that connection-making is there. I think what I'm going to have her do this coming year is just *discuss* using some prespecified targets. I haven't made the list yet, but you know what I mean (compare/contrast, etc. etc.). Then I think I can specify making Inspiration maps for a small number of those. (In our house we do better with clear expectations.) But for those discussions on the targets, I might not even use lit. We could do that just as easily with shorter sources like news articles. It's still analysis, still hitting the targets, but doing it with shorter sources they can read several times to quickly get their brains around the material and focus on discussion. In talking with mature literature people, I've noticed that they tend to like to read the books multiple times before discussing. School paradigms force that issue, and then our kids lock up. In that respect, I think we're disserved to try to carry the school model of analysis over to our kids (read book, analyze now, because I said so). We're talking high IQ kids who think differently. I try to look for adults who also have those patterns and see how those adults approach the topic (literature, science, whatever). It has definitely changed how we're doing science. Science education is totally driven by educators who say how it is. When I look at brilliant adults who are continuing learners of science who have thought processes like dd, they approach science a totally different way (much more in context, much more narrative, still with facts but with REASONS and often using well-written lit).

 

Well that's your aside for the day, lol.

[Heathermomster]

I brought up the lit stuff because I'm curious how college writing works for a youngish student enrolled at CC.

 

I've been exploring college level writing and have come to the conclusion that literary analysis for my middle schooler consists of Inspiration story webs and lots of Socratic type questioning with discussion. DS seems to respond very well to the big probing questions. I don't expect any major writing until late high school.

 

Eta: Outside of history, I've turned to a standard middle school literature text, and we are discussing short stories, which has been fun.

[PeterPan]

Heather, are you using a particular list for those Socratic discussion questions? Hold it, socratic is leading to a point, not open-ended, right? I've seen lists here and there, just haven't had one jump out at me. I think it's more my own idiocy (lack of background), lol.

 

Also, why I do agree with you on not expecting certain things till later, I will say that this push we made for National History Day was REALLY good for us. She learned a lot about what she COULD do, and she's a lot more confident now sitting down with material. It was this huge mental jump. So it might be interesting for him to try *one* project, a more in-depth, considered project. Dd had read tons of books and had tons of information filling her head, so it wasn't this analysis of one but this bigger picture analysis.

 

And she hates lit curricula, lol. I'm going to try a couple TLP guides on her this year, but I'll still probably be hoping for flying swine.

[Tokyomarie]

Had 9yo evaluated by a Wilson specialist b/c of spelling issues and occasional reversals. Reading has been a struggle in the past, but has really taken off over the last few months. Writing continues to be a struggle, partly b/c of spelling. The evaluation I was given has child several grades ahead in reading, yet a dx of dyslexia was made. I agree with this based on multiple other symptoms (though may be partially a right brain issue, too), but am unsure how to help my child since most of the programs have such a heavy reading focus. The Wilson specialist will be nearly $8K by the time the set number of sessions are complete, so I'd like to try to do this at home and keep most of those greenbacks! I've read the threads comparing Barton and Wilson, but not sure if a solid reader still starts at the beginning. Appreciate any thoughts.

 

I agree with some of the things that others have said, but not completely- especially as regards the value of the private tutoring.

 

Assuming that the tutor plans to see your child 2x/week, 18mo of tutoring would work out to an average of $50/hr. This is totally in line with the typical charge for this type of tutoring. If she were asking you to pay $8K up front, I would run like the wind to a far away place. But assuming that she charges on a per session or monthly basis, it would not be unreasonable to commit on a month by month basis. In my mind, I always commit to something for a minimum of 3 months- it takes 2-3 months to establish a relationship with a new teacher or therapist and begin to see some fruit from the effort.

 

We have hired professionals for our children with language-based learning difficulties, including an O-G tutor for my son when he was in 9th grade and still could not spell beyond a 2nd grade level despite everything I tried at home. This person was trained in multiple methodologies and had the ability to adapt her teaching to his specific needs. Yes, it was expensive! By the time we got to this point, I was desperate, however, and every penny spent was worth it.

 

That said, here are some things I would consider in my decision:

 

1) What are this person's qualifications, other than having taken the Wilson training class? What is her degree? How many years experience does she have working as a tutor? Does she take part in any professional activities or conferences that help her further develop her skills and network with others in the field?

 

2) What actual tests did she do and how did she come to a conclusion that your child is dyslexic? She may be absolutely correct, but as others have said, unless she is a fully qualified psychologist or, possibly, a speech/language pathologist, she doesn't have the qualifications to actually make a diagnosis that schools and colleges will recognize. She may well be fully qualified in her realm to test for current skill levels and use those tests to plan intervention. That's different from making a diagnosis.

 

3) On the COVD: over the years, some COVDs have marketed their services in such a way that they have made claims that their vision therapy can "cure dyslexia." This has made neuropsychologists and dyslexia professionals wary of vision therapy because true dyslexia is a language-based learning difference and training the eyes does not change the way the brain processes language. The American Academy of Pediatrics has issued a position statement about vision therapy that includes this statement:

 

"Scientific evidence does not support the efficacy of eye exercises, behavioral vision therapy, or special tinted filters or lenses for improving the long-term educational performance in these complex pediatric neurocognitive conditions. Diagnostic and treatment approaches that lack scientific evidence of efficacy, including eye exercises, behavioral vision therapy, or special tinted filters or lenses, are not endorsed and should not be recommended."

 

This is why many professionals in the learning disabilities field do not recognize vision therapy as a valid intervention for learning difficulties. HOWEVER, my opinion, based on years of reading message boards like this, is that many children with language-based learning differences ALSO have difficulties with visual function, including convergence insufficiency. Those students frequently do not make progress with evidence-based methods for teaching reading (based on Orton-Gillingham principles) until they have had therapy to improve the way their eyes function as they try to read.

 

In our family, one child with language-based LD (probably should have a dyslexia diagnosis based on her history, family history, and educational trajectory) does not and never did have difficulties with visual function. In fact, her visual function in all areas is exceptional. But her brother, who has a dyslexia/reading disorder diagnosis does have documented difficulties with tracking, accommodation, and visual-motor integration. Unfortunately, he didn't get fully tested until he was 15yo and at that point he was resistant to vision therapy. We had to pick our battles and I went with O-G tutoring and therapy for the language-based difficulties related to the writing process.

 

 

There are a couple of ways you can go from here. It is perfectly reasonable to get a developmental vision evaluation from a COVD. It adds data to the pot and will help you understand your child's situation better. Assuming that the Wilson tutor's qualifications are more as a tutor or possibly as a certified teacher turned tutor, I would think about further testing to confirm her conclusions and expand the information you have about your child's function.

 

On this board, we often recommend a neuropsychological evaluation. These are very expensive (ave. $3,000 in our area, I've seen lower figures posted on this board), and only inconsistently covered by insurance. Given that you don't mention your child having major difficulties with all aspects of school function, being depressed or anxious about his school or life performance, and/or having other major behavioral difficulties, it could be hard to convince your insurance company to cover the cost. Another direction you could go for next step testing is a speech/language pathologist (SLP) for a language and literacy evaluation. Many SLP's are not trained in the area of evaluating literacy, but those who are can evaluate both oral and written language skills. This type of evaluation is often more in the $500-$600 range. This can help fill in the picture in a way that a neuropsych consult often does not.

 

For great information on all things dyslexia, check out this website: DyslexiaHelp. Also check out the website of the International Dyslexia Association (IDA). Other than the fact that both of these organizations are not as positive about vision therapy as most of the posters to this board, these two websites have some of the best information on dyslexia evaluation and therapy.

[Heathermomster]

Heather, are you using a particular list for those Socratic discussion questions? Hold it, socratic is leading to a point, not open-ended, right? I've seen lists here and there, just haven't had one jump out at me. I think it's more my own idiocy (lack of background), lol.

 

Also, why I do agree with you on not expecting certain things till later, I will say that this push we made for National History Day was REALLY good for us. She learned a lot about what she COULD do, and she's a lot more confident now sitting down with material. It was this huge mental jump. So it might be interesting for him to try *one* project, a more in-depth, considered project. Dd had read tons of books and had tons of information filling her head, so it wasn't this analysis of one but this bigger picture analysis.

 

And she hates lit curricula, lol. I'm going to try a couple TLP guides on her this year, but I'll still probably be hoping for flying swine.

 

 

I'm using the Teaching the Classics DVDs. There are questions that come with the program. The whole Socratic method is new to me. I ask open ended questions as well as some that lead to a point, so I can assess whether DS understands the material. I haven't mastered the method by any means. The questioning really does seem to help. Blessings, h

 

[Pen]

Had 9yo evaluated by a Wilson specialist b/c of spelling issues and occasional reversals. Reading has been a struggle in the past, but has really taken off over the last few months. Writing continues to be a struggle, partly b/c of spelling. The evaluation I was given has child several grades ahead in reading, yet a dx of dyslexia was made. I agree with this based on multiple other symptoms (though may be partially a right brain issue, too), but am unsure how to help my child since most of the programs have such a heavy reading focus. The Wilson specialist will be nearly $8K by the time the set number of sessions are complete, so I'd like to try to do this at home and keep most of those greenbacks! I've read the threads comparing Barton and Wilson, but not sure if a solid reader still starts at the beginning. Appreciate any thoughts.

 

 

 

 

Leaving aside the issue of whether you need some other diagnosis, that others covered, but returning to your original questions which seem to be about spelling and writing. Are you talking about handwriting or composition? What were the reading problems and what helped that to take off? What have you tried for spelling that has thus far not worked? What else besides spelling is causing writing to be a struggle?

 

 

My experience was that writing, in the compositional sense, went nowhere till reading was solid, and that reading needed to be solid for around half a year before the writing started to take off. Once reading was solid for that long, the compositional parts of writing started to fall into place--with the physical penmanship being done with me scribing or using a recorder or typing, since handwriting is a problem, and in my situation I decided that we needed to move on to using what exists of technology to help rather than struggling with the penmanship aspects.

 

For my ds, once reading was solid, writing was helped by writing, including using some writing and related programs. We did not use either Barton or Wilson. MCT was helpful and my ds likes to write poetry (which is an MCT strong point, I think). Brave Writer was helpful, especially with its approach which separated mechanics from composition. 6 Trait writing which helped his see what an essay was and how to write one (We were practicing for our state standardized testing, which uses 6 Trait rubric model. But this would not have worked at all a year ago.) We tried some other things which either he did not like, though I might have thought them excellent, or that did not seem to be helpful in his case.

[jetzmama]

TokyoMarie,

Great questions!

The tutors have masters in Sp. Ed. and cert is WRS (Wilson). They are also highly recommended in the local hs community. You are correct that the tutoring sessions are about $50 each... Just taken aback when looking at the big picture price! Being new to all of this, I don't know what tests she used. She showed me maybe 6-8 papers she had him complete. These included a drawing/describe in a sentence page, a list of spelling words he had attempted, a pre printed story which he read (this is the one she used to tell me he was reading @ close to an 8th grade level), and I just don't recall what the others were. She kept them in his file. Seems one may have been results to some oral activities.

 

Interesting about COVD's. Despite reg eye dr having been pres of state and regional chapters of a national organization, none of his staff knew what COVD was when I asked. One did ask if that was related to VT and confirmed he does not this. Closest COVD is over an hour away. Thinking a COVD will do a reg exam, too, so no need to double up on eye exams. :p

 

Based on what you've said, pretty sure NP wouldn't be covered by ins. Happy go lucky kid who is brilliant (imho ;) and biased, too) history, math, sci and has a memory like a steel trap... For everything he receives auditorily. It is as though his auditory functions make up for what is not being processed visually (though people observation skills are acute).

 

Thanks for your input. Thinking I'm going to keep the 6 appointments that we have in the current term, then re-evaluate after seeing how that goes. Also thinking that I'll make appt w/ COVD and cancel reg OD exam. For this one and my older VSL!

 

[jetzmama]

Pen,

 

Love your comments on composition v. writing. We use IEW for composition. He does about as we'll as my others did with it at that age....auditorily. He dictates, I write, until the final draft, in which he copies (he can even copy the marked up rough draft now! Yay!).

 

All that to say that the processes of language seem to be fine, it's just the mechanics of writing and spelling that are struggles. Both sequencing issues. Seems everything he struggles with concerns sequencing. Yet he can play Simon and other sequencing games well... Perhaps b/c they are short term in nature.

 

What helped him with reading? He was desperate to see a movie, but had to follow the 'read the book first' policy. That is the motivation he needed to struggle through a big challenge (it was not a short or easy book).

 

Completing that book gave him reading confidence. Only then was he eager to read aloud to me. This is when I started to wonder about dyslexic symptoms as punctuation seemingly vanished on the pages. Despite many attempts to correct this, it continued, until he wanted to be the one to get to read our lunchtime read alouds. Other kids and I took turns (whoever finished lunch first), but told 9yo he had to wait until he could acknowledge the punctuation in his reading. 2 days and he was doing it. Again, motivation. But, I suspect this determined ds had to work mightily in his mind to be able to do this.

 

In the midst of all this, he found a historical fiction book by Gilbert Morris about his passion...the Civil War. Turns out it was a 10 book series and ebay had the rest of the set cheap. He read the entire series in about 2 weeks, spending hours each day in his room reading. Since, he is reading whatever 200 or less page book he can find on the shelf!

 

Finally, In Jan, I got the SWR phonogram flashcards and we have been working on memorizing those phonemes. This made the difference in another ds being able to read fluently, and I believe it has helped this time around, too. I have not done the whole SWR program b/c I found is so time consuming the first time around, but the flashcards are a jewel in themselves.

 

Have not tried too many spelling programs. My others have learned to spell by reading, so assumed this would be the case here, too. Tried the 2 week sample of SS which ended in tears most days. Have started a bit with SP. Discovered that most oral spelling is fine. The probs come with putting it on paper. But, if I give an oral spelling quiz in morning, then a written one after lunch, the written one is quite good. Forget it if the before lunch oral practice is not done! The Wilson tutor said to stop spelling, SWR cards, etc b/c they will have a different approach. So for now we are waiting to see what these first few appointments in May look like before deciding how to proceed.

 

What is MCT? He enjoys poetry, so this might be a good fit.

 

Thanks!

[Lecka]

Michael Clay Thompson