Moving ahead in subject areas the WTM way

[neveryoumindthere]

Sorry couldn't think of a better title. What I mean is, dd, who *just* turned 5 is reading at a 2nd/3rd grade level at the moment. For Math we are doing grade 1. Do I keep her in the 'grammar' level in terms of concrete math, focusing on reading/writing, memorizing?

 

I anticipate finishing the math before the year is over and I can see her definitely reaching 4th or 5th grade reading level before then too.

 

Do I continue to do history in the 4 year cycle (I'm skipping for this year what I wanted to do for history until next year) even if she's 'skipping' grades in other subjects?

Do I just double up for the year? What have others done?

 

Before anyone 'brings me down', I *do* realize she may not do any of this and may slow down, so it's hypothetical but something I'd like to look into if it becomes the case.

 

 

I hope I'm making sense. It made sense in my head when I thought of the question.:001_huh:

[FO4UR]

I would keep history on a four yr cycle, just tailor the readings/writing to her ability and interest.

[Tree House Academy]

I would take it where she is THIS YEAR and just plan one year at a time. That way, if she does start to slow down in her curve, you can adjust without messing up 4 YEARS worth of planning. Sounds like she is one smart cookie, though. Move ahead as she is ready, slow down when she needs to, take a break if it is ever necessary - you know, the beauty of homeschooling lies in the joys of being completely able to completely enjoy the ebb and flow.

[Lovedtodeath]

I wouldn't count your chickens now. I don't think that a preschool level is going to tell you all that much. My DD started out like this and she is right on track right now, though still reading and spelling at higher levels, not too much more is advanced. She was done with typical K work at 3 and a half, turned 5 reading at a 2nd to 3rd grade level and after that promptly lost interest in reading and became more "fidgety". If I had not had a baby my guess is she would be either starting 2nd or halfway through 2nd. As it is we are starting 1st. Being highly intelligent does not make a child developementally ready to write, sit for long periods, listen to long read-alouds, etc. Also as far as TWTM is concerned, IMO it seems to expect a preschooler to read well, so not much should have to be changed.

 

As far as the grammar and logic stages, I plan to keep her in the grammar stage as long as is appropriate. After all, doing well at memorization can't be a bad thing.

[dragons in the flower bed]

I'm going to second what the previous poster said about counting chickens. My now 8yo breezed through math like a maniac, and was reading very well very quickly, at four years old. He slowed down. A lot of kids do. I teach him on grade level these days. Also, intellectual giftedness does not equal emotional or developmental precocity; in fact, it can indicate immaturity.

 

Don't work on phonics just because she's six, if she can read, but don't teach her fifth grade materials just because she's capable of that, either. It's trickier to find the right approach and content for kids who are not on track, skills wise, but you will. Think about where she is developmentally, and use that as a guide.

[nmoira]

Don't work on phonics just because she's six, if she can read, but don't teach her fifth grade materials just because she's capable of that, either. It's trickier to find the right approach and content for kids who are not on track, skills wise, but you will. Think about where she is developmentally, and use that as a guide.

My approach with my 6yo changes depending on the subject. In History, for example, I take things slowly, but use a higher level read alouds (I don't ask her read anything... I think she's too young for assigned readings). However, we do not do outlines, timelines, or any real analysis unless it's initiated by her. In other words I maintain output expectations similar to most 6yo's even though we use a higher level of input.

 

We do short days; no more than 3 hours, including an hour read aloud and 45min-1 hour of Spanish... her choice. I have her self pace with most subjects other than History. Sometimes this means racing ahead, and others it means ratcheting back to allow more time for another subject. For example, her math has slowed down this calendar year in favour of Spanish, and that's OK because I see her being "ahead" as providing more flexibility with respect to following interests.

[8filltheheart]

There are several different issues that should be considered simultaneously.

 

First and foremost, she is 5, a young 5 at that. Every other decision you consider needs to keep that perspective as its focus. I feel like a broken record b/c I have typed this repeatedly lately, but imaginative play is the most important factor in higher level cognitive process development for little kids. In other words, you could make her do older level academic work that eats up huge portions of her day and actually hinder her higher cognitive processes compared to letting her play (and that is playing, not tv, video games, etc) Here are google links with lots of articles (I didn't follow any of them. I did my undergraduate research on this topic in 1986, so this is not a new revelation. It is simply one that has been ignored in the desire to "produce" test ready kids.)

 

http://www.google.com/search?q=imaginative+play+and+brain+development&rls=com.microsoft:*:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7ADBS

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:*:IE-SearchBox&rlz=1I7ADBS&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=higher+cognitive+process+development+in+young+children+via+play&spell=1

http://www.google.com/search?q=cognitive+development+in+children&rls=com.microsoft:*:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7ADBS

 

The second issue is what is real definition of being advanced. Having advanced young readers is not really an accurate overall indicator. Brain development varies from child to child. It is simply that 6-7 is the average age for fluent reading. Some kids get there later (and it does not mean they are academically behind) and some get there earlier (and it does not mean they are academically ahead).

 

I have zero idea whether your dd is advanced or not. But......even is she is, I wouldn't worry about it at 5. Advanced kids have a way of doing it on their own without any help from us at that age. My youngest ds is 2-3 yrs ahead in math and taught himself all of his multiplication tables when he was 6. He didn't even know that was what he was doing at the time. He taught himself via observation. "That window has 3 panes across and 5 pane up. 5 rows of 3 is 15." He didn't need me. :)

 

All that is to say that her academic skills now are not predictable indicators. She is really young. She needs to be able to be little. As she approaches 7, you'll have a much better idea. I would spend more time reading to her and talking to her with rich vocabulary and encouraging her to play dress-up, etc. There is usually a mental lag time, but typically within a few days, bright little kids start incorporating story lines they have heard into their play.

 

Simply focus on reading, handwriting, and math daily and no matter where she is academically, you will have provided her with the foundation she needs.

[nmoira]

First and foremost, she is 5, a young 5 at that. Every other decision you consider needs to keep that perspective as its focus. I feel like a broken record b/c I have typed this repeatedly lately, but imaginative play is the most important factor in higher level cognitive process development for little kids.

This is an excellent point. We did less than an hour's work at that age, much to DD's dismay... she wanted more.

 

I have zero idea whether your dd is advanced or not. But......even is she is, I wouldn't worry about it at 5. Advanced kids have a way of doing it on their own without any help from us at that age.

I think it's important to follow a young child's lead. My oldest wanted to do academic work at that age. We'd started out with a gentle Charlotte Mason approach at 4 and as we progressed, she wanted more, more, more. It would have been disingenuous of me to want to follow her lead if it led away from academics, but not if it didn't. KWIM?

 

All that is to say that her academic skills now are not predictable indicators. She is really young. She needs to be able to be little. As she approaches 7, you'll have a much better idea. I would spend more time reading to her and talking to her with rich vocabulary and encouraging her to play dress-up, etc. There is usually a mental lag time, but typically within a few days, bright little kids start incorporating story lines they have heard into their play.

But what if she doesn't want to do dress up? What if she wants to dictate stories, or hear more stories? Or read/hear more history books? Or do math? Or learn Spanish? I'm not big on pushing academics on young children, but phrases like "she needs to be little" put me on guard because I too often hear them in discussions about highly gifted kids who are driven to subject areas not considered appropriate by, say, the Waldorf crowd.

 

I carefully try to balance our time, and three hours a day is *not* what I'd expected to be doing at 6 (though she still has lots of time to play with her sister); however, I've got a child who literally begs to continue in whatever historical fiction book we're reading, and who is eager to start another modern language. Focusing solely on reading, writing and math is not an option.

[Cornerstone Classical]

This sounds like my DS (6.5). He is reading on a 7/8th grade level and did Saxon 1 in a semester and is already 1/2 way in Saxon 2.

 

I attended a gifted workshop this spring at my homeschool convention and the lady was saying that it's not important to let your dc "top out" at everything but to pull in some enrichment activities and dig deeper on the topics that you cover. In that workshop I was introduced to a curriculum/enrichment program called Moving Beyond the Page . What I did is since we are studying an overview of US History/Geography, I picked 2 novels that correspond with our History and bought MBP enrichment booklet that goes with the novels. It is fabulous! They have all kinds of subjects/books/activities that help your child dig deeper!

[8filltheheart]

But what if she doesn't want to do dress up? What if she wants to dictate stories, or hear more stories? Or read/hear more history books? Or do math? Or learn Spanish? I'm not big on pushing academics on young children, but phrases like "she needs to be little" put me on guard because I too often hear them in discussions about highly gifted kids who are driven to subject areas not considered appropriate by, say, the Waldorf crowd.

 

The point is that explorative play (dress up was simply an example) creates higher order cognitive skills. Employing creative imagination uses different brain skills than reading or memorization. So, based on your examples, playing vs Spanish.....playing is more valuable. Doing math vs playing....playing is more valuable.

 

I am not telling anyone what to do. Do whatever you want with your child. This is a virtual world where the only thing communicated is what we can read. No one can "see" what is really occurring.

 

All I can share is that research for decades has shown that the trend toward pre-school academics actual does not benefit children academically long term. Successful programs like Head Start are intervening in situations where children are not being provided even fundamental "normal" childhood interaction. CHildren that are being raised by tvs and do not have simple basic adult interaction (colors, shapes, counting, etc that are part of normal conversation) benefit from intervention b/c they are mentally neglected. The success they demonstrate is on a knowlegde level.

 

What I am discussing as "higher" is not knowledge. Knowledge is the lowest order of mental expression. I am referring to analyzing, synthesizing, and evaluating which requires self-processing. Research has shown that imaginative play develops those skills better. Academics develops lower level cognitive skills....knowledge, comprehension, and application.

 

This is not simply my POV. Early childhood research has proven this repeatedly.

 

If you are discussing these kids that are graduating from high school at age 9 or 10 or 11.....that is a rare circumstance. I have no idea how one approaches that issue. If you are talking about a 5 yr old reading on a 4th grade level and doing 1st grade math.....that is a pretty typical bright kid. There is nothing that unique or exaggeratedly advanced about that child.

 

FWIW.....I also do not advocate following a child's lead. Kids are not the best evaluators of what is best for them. Some kids won't do any academics even if they are able. Some kids would sit and read all day and never go outside and run around and get physical exercise. And no matter how bright kids are......they are only 5 once.

 

ETA: BTW, age 7 is usually the age that most research indicates as the shift in mental age. So above I wrote "preschool." I meant it more generically as preschool and primary grades.

[nmoira]

The point is that explorative play (dress up was simply an example) creates higher order cognitive skills. Employing creative imagination uses different brain skills than reading or memorization. So, based on your examples, playing vs Spanish.....playing is more valuable. Doing math vs playing....playing is more valuable.

I do agree that unstructured play time is important (as is downtime), which I why I make sure there's lots almost every day. My point isn't that kids shouldn't have play time, but that some children's interests lie outside the "norm," and these kids interests and proclivities should be respected just as much others.

 

All I can share is that research for decades has shown that the trend toward pre-school academics actual does not benefit children academically long term.

I'm familiar with these studies, but it's important to remember that studies apply to groups of children, not all individuals in the group, and that the meaning of "developmentally appropriate" is dependent upon the child's actual developmental level, not the average developmental level of children the same age.

 

If you are discussing these kids that are graduating from high school at age 9 or 10 or 11.....that is a rare circumstance. I have no idea how one approaches that issue. If you are talking about a 5 yr old reading on a 4th grade level and doing 1st grade math.....that is a pretty typical bright kid. There is nothing that unique or exaggeratedly advanced about that child.

This is true, and it's sometime that's easy for me to overlook, especially given the number of similar children on this board. My oldest taught herself to read at 2 and has never been shy about communicating her intellectual needs. I admit to bristling at blanket statements about children.

 

FWIW.....I also do not advocate following a child's lead. Kids are not the best evaluators of what is best for them.

I trust my children to communicate their interests and needs. I'm not going to leave a question unanswered; nor am I going to push them. My 4yo is not so academically inclined as her sister, and I'm not doing the same things with her I did with (though we of course do lots of family read aloud). She is, however, very interested in drawing. I leave a huge pile of paper and pencil crayons available to her at all times. My oldest is an avid reader, and I make sure there are lots of age appropriate books around for her to read. Right now they're dancing around giggling... waiting for mama to make breakfast (I should do this). :)

[Mommy22alyns]

Advanced in reading does not necessarily indicate that a child will be advanced in math too, or advanced to the same degree, etc.

 

I agree with Tree House Academy - meet your child where she is and move along according to her abilities. :001_smile:

[Lovedtodeath]

If you are discussing these kids that are graduating from high school at age 9 or 10 or 11.....that is a rare circumstance. I have no idea how one approaches that issue. If you are talking about a 5 yr old reading on a 4th grade level and doing 1st grade math.....that is a pretty typical bright kid. There is nothing that unique or exaggeratedly advanced about that child.

 

FWIW.....I also do not advocate following a child's lead. Kids are not the best evaluators of what is best for them. Some kids won't do any academics even if they are able. Some kids would sit and read all day and never go outside and run around and get physical exercise. And no matter how bright kids are......they are only 5 once.

 

ETA: BTW, age 7 is usually the age that most research indicates as the shift in mental age. So above I wrote "preschool." I meant it more generically as preschool and primary grades.

 

I could not have said the first two better!!

 

Thanks for the point about 7 years old. That helps me keep things in perspective.

 

FWIW I was not reading at all until I was 6 and a half. I still ended up with Algebra and great books in 6th and 7th grade. Sometimes things change every year.

[PeterPan]

While I agree with what momof7 has said, I think I understand where the op (neveryoumindthere) is coming from and would like to answer her. It's not really rocket science. You look at WTM and you differentiate skills from content. You let them move forward through the progression of skills for a subject (say writing, spelling, math) at their own pace. On the content, you find a sensible progression and present it in an interesting way that changes every semester, or as necessary, to fit their changes in thought, skills, and readiness. So you can do the history topics WTM recommends for 3rd grade, but do them with the 5th grade history writing SKILLS listed in WTM. You can do the next grade level of WTM writing skills, but you do them in QUANTITIES appropriate to the age. Make sense? You have to play with it, advancing forward with skills, but still making it fit the age. That's what we've done, and it has worked out well for us. Content is individual and going to have to fit the student. She might hate history or be a big-picture spine person. She might love history and want to read high school level books on it in 2nd, btdt. You'll find ways to make it work.

[neveryoumindthere]

While I agree with what momof7 has said, I think I understand where the op (neveryoumindthere) is coming from and would like to answer her. It's not really rocket science. You look at WTM and you differentiate skills from content. You let them move forward through the progression of skills for a subject (say writing, spelling, math) at their own pace. On the content, you find a sensible progression and present it in an interesting way that changes every semester, or as necessary, to fit their changes in thought, skills, and readiness. So you can do the history topics WTM recommends for 3rd grade, but do them with the 5th grade history writing SKILLS listed in WTM. You can do the next grade level of WTM writing skills, but you do them in QUANTITIES appropriate to the age. Make sense? You have to play with it, advancing forward with skills, but still making it fit the age. That's what we've done, and it has worked out well for us. Content is individual and going to have to fit the student. She might hate history or be a big-picture spine person. She might love history and want to read high school level books on it in 2nd, btdt. You'll find ways to make it work.

 

Thank you for this. This is exactly what I was looking for!!

I also like the idea of going more in depth rather than ahead. Thanks to the poster who mentioned that.

I'm the type that needs to discuss, bounce ideas back and forth. I'm sure I could have come up with my own path at some point, but I just like discussing with others and gathering ideas.

 

Sorry if this thread upset anyone.

....

I was posting earlier (but lost the entire post), that while I appreciate ppl taking the time to post, I did make clear that I *know* she may not get too far ahead, but was wondering in practical terms, what do you do in this case? OhElizabeth, Cornerstone Classical and nmoira answered my question, thank you :) and Moira, your dd sounds just like mine

 

 

I also wanted to point out, dd is not into toys or art at all (trust me, we try), but does do imaginative play, loves to run and climb and I give her lots of opportunities to do so. She has loads of free time since we are only doing about 2 hours of 'work'--mostly me reading aloud, and that 2 hrs. includes fun things like learning to sew/baking/computer and board games. She often chooses to read during her free time. She taught herself the letters at age 3 playing on starfall.com and learned to read with no guidance from me besides helping to sound out CVC words for a couple months at age 4 because *she* asked me to.

 

While I am somewhat following WTM for the base, we are certainly a child-led/classical/life-learning/eclectic type of homeschooling family, so I'm definitely not all about academics. I just happen to have one kid who is into that, while my other dd all physical. One of the beauties of homeschooling is working with each child's learning style and temperament, rather than get lost in a sea of 'average'

[Lovedtodeath]

Before anyone 'brings me down', I *do* realize she may not do any of this and may slow down, so it's hypothetical but something I'd like to look into if it becomes the case.

 

You sure did say it!;) Some of us gave suggestions in addition to "bringing you down". :001_unsure: :blush5: I guess if we had left that part out we would have been more helpful and less distracting. :leaving:

[PeterPan]

Sometimes advice is good, but we're not at the stage to need it yet. That happened with me earlier today reading a post of Janice's, seeing advice afresh that I had heard 20 times but never quite that way, with quite the need. So just file away momof7's good advice, and maybe the day will come when it's useful to you. :)

 

And just for your trivia, my dd, who has never colored of her own free will in 9 years, is now COLORING like mad! Go figure. Of course it's a kicked up version, with prismacolor pencils, using photos for inspiration and a giant coloring book with perforated pages that she wants to use as christmas presents. lol Anyways, things change. I have tons and tons of coloring books I picked up thinking surely she'd want to and she never did. Now I'm saving them for the next kid. Imagine my surprise when she found one and grabbed it up for herself!

 

On the depth thing, sometimes you go in-depth, but sometimes that actually becomes stressful to them because they can go SO deep. I know that happened to us with VP OTAE, where we went so deep that it was almost overwhelming. (No first grader should be able to go through the Tut exhibit and converse about all those dudes, kwim?) I think in retrospect I'd put a lot more effort into broad surveys, big picture-gaining rather than deep study. You go deep with an older student. I'm not saying not to LET them go deep where they want, mercy. I'm just saying I wouldn't transfer the depth you typically do with an older student down to a younger, thinking you're feeding them on their level. I'd instead help them get the big picture and do it over and over again. That's what I recall watching Abbeyej do with her ds (several years ago, accelerated board on the old format forums, which you can search by googling your terms plus site:wtmboards.com ) I wish I had read CHOW over and over again, much like we cycled through picture bibles so many times. I wish we had read a survey of american like Eggleston or one of the free texts available online over and over. That way she'd have a context, a framework, to fill all these details in that she reads in her prolific reading. Taking 4 years to cover the big picture is actually excessively long for some kids, just my personal opinion. I wish I had done better there. That's where I agree with the Cheryl Lowe article in the recent MP catalog. I didn't post on that thread because I get bored with controversy. I was surprised at how many people disagreed with her in fact, because the article made really good sense to me and is the direction I intend to plow with this new little one I'm having. I think it's especially fitting for a gifted dc, and really I don't consider it so dreadfully incompatible with WTM. I think conceptually it's the same, just a big different implementation practically. Sometimes WTM gets very "in the box," making everything really sequential and evenly spaced, whether it's history or LA or whatever, which it's really not. It can be if you have a student that you totally spoonfeed, but certain types of students are not spoonfed, and for those I think shaking it up a bit is a good idea. Like I said, I'd do a series of big picture spines in the early years and then start into more detailed study. That way all the reading your dd is doing in these early years can be filed in the right places without the stress of heavy study. My dd has never read exclusively in one time period, so I doubt your dd will either.

 

Well that's enough philosophy to last you a while. :)

[8filltheheart]

I'm sorry if my comments offended you. I wasn't intending to bring you down. After reading Elizabeth's post, I realize that you were talking about the distant future. I misinterpreted your post as discussing this yr which is why I responded the way that I did.

 

Obviously I offended someone. I am sorry. I was not trying to be condensending at all. Sometimes we homeschooling moms can be so enthusiastic about all the possibilities that the objectives/goals are lost in the sea of curriculum options vs the needs of the little person standing in front of us. My comment about sounding like a broken record was actually a self-dig b/c I am sure people are probably tired of reading my posts. :)

 

My degrees are in early childhood psychology and elementary ed. I spent a significant amount of time on researching brain development and the impact of play vs academics. I was simply trying to share what research has shown. Sorry again if I offended.

[neveryoumindthere]

I'm sorry if my comments offended you. I wasn't intending to bring you down. After reading Elizabeth's post, I realize that you were talking about the distant future. I misinterpreted your post as discussing this yr which is why I responded the way that I did.

 

Obviously I offended someone. I am sorry. I was not trying to be condensending at all. Sometimes we homeschooling moms can be so enthusiastic about all the possibilities that the objectives/goals are lost in the sea of curriculum options vs the needs of the little person standing in front of us. My comment about sounding like a broken record was actually a self-dig b/c I am sure people are probably tired of reading my posts. :)

 

My degrees are in early childhood psychology and elementary ed. I spent a significant amount of time on researching brain development and the impact of play vs academics. I was simply trying to share what research has shown. Sorry again if I offended.

 

 

Oh no, no offence taken at all. I agreed with most of your post if I remember correctly :) I wasn't even thinking of any post in particular. Like LovedtoDeath mentioned, it was a bit distracting to sift through the replies looking for what I was asking, that's all.

 

No hard feelings! :grouphug: