Took the plunge..... AoPS

[Chris in PA]

Well I finally took the plunge and ordered AoPS Introduction to Algebra. My ds (9th grade) started it today. He is also doing TT geometry this year as his primary math and we had been using some other things to review algebra 1. I am hoping this is a good fit for my boy who sees math in his head. I do have a question. I am thinking instead of scheduling a lesson per day that I should just set a time for math each day (say 90 minutes). Would that be a better way to approach it?

 

Thanks!

[regentrude]

In my experience, setting a time works better. The book is not structured in "lessons", but sections that center on a certain concept. Not all sections and problems are equal in difficulty. Some will be easy to go through, but in others, a single problem may take 45 minutes. It makes more sense to let the student stop after a certain time (and that time should depend on how long your student can do focused, concentrated math work).

 

ETA: I have used AoPS Intro to Algebra successfully with both my kids. DD got to work for however long she wanted (binges and skipped days), DS has a mandatory 60 minutes daily for math (sometimes does more if he wants to)

[Luckymama]

Dd averages 60-75 minutes a day using AoPS (various books), which for her usually corresponds to one section with all problems and exercises.

[StephanieZ]

I agree that one section (with problems) per day is a good general guideline. Expecting 60-90 min/day for that. Some will go much faster, some slower. I guess it depends on the child, but my kids always seem to dawdle when I don't have a specific page/chapter/section goal. So, I prefer to have a page/chapter goal. Flexibility as needed is always good, though.

 

The end-of-chapter sections require more time -- I'd allow about 3-7 schooling days to get through the end of chapter stuff.

 

Don't forget to check out Alcumus on the AoPS website. It is super awesome. And free! There are also teaching videos corresponding to the book sections, FWIW, also free. :)

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I would especially encourage doing Alcumus and watching the videos for the first couple of chapters. Better to move deliberately at the beginning than do those early chapters twice (ask how I came to this conclusion).

[trudence1]

Does the book schedule the Alcumus and videos into it, or do you have to look up and see where to have your child do these problems? TIA

[Sebastian (a lady)]

You can set Alcumus to follow the book and advance as the student demonstrates mastery. Or you can set it to stay on a particular topic.

 

I think you have to pick each video. We haven't made much use of the videos.

[StephanieZ]

Yes, set up your Alcumus to "follow the book" for Intro. to Algebra.

 

See the videos here: http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Videos/index.php?type=introalgebra

 

They are organized by chapter/section.

[Chris in PA]

Thanks for all the helpful advice. We went through the process to set up the Alcumus account. I did find the videos and we will use them as well. I think I will try a combined approach for scheduling math. I will continue to assign a lesson a day knowing that some days math will be shorter and other days one lesson may take several days (and we can modify our schedule). My ds likes that I schedule the lessons.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

One thing to be aware of is that AoPS does not have tests.

 

Regentrude shared the tests she made in a Logic Board thread. She does tests end of the semester and end of the year, with an emphasis on long term understanding. I added a test review problem list for the chapters 1-14 test (which I used for the end of Algebra 1).

 

I agree that a student should still have mastery long term, but I also needed to test my kids more frequently to make sure they were really understanding the material. Otherwise, I would tend to let them flounder, not realizing that they were having trouble.

 

I typically work through a chapter or two over a couple long days, picking out problems that I think show a detailed understanding of a concept. Some come from the sample problems, some from lessons and some from the review. I don't use the starred challenge problems for this. Then I will put together a test of a handful of problems I think give a good spot check. Put fewer problems on the test than you think you need to. It's a spot check. You can change the numbers if you want, but I also found that just changing the scenario, leaving the numbers the same also worked. It was rare that my kids simply remembered the answer to a problem, even though they had done them before.

 

One other thing to note with scheduling is that the Intro to Algebra book contains material for both Algebra 1 and Algebra 2 as schools would traditionally cover it. You can take a look at the schedules for the AoPS online classes for Algebra 1 and Algebra 2 to see how they break down the chapters. (NB: My state adds trigonometry and probability & statistics to Algebra 2, and then covers the algebra topics to a lesser degree. If you need to take state tests for some reason, you may want to keep half an eye on what students are covering locally.)

[Chris in PA]

One thing to be aware of is that AoPS does not have tests.

 

Regentrude shared the tests she madein a Logic Board thread. She does tests end of the semester and end of the year, with an emphasis on long term understanding. I added a test review problem list for the chapters 1-14 test (which I used for the end of Algebra 1).

 

I agree that a student should still have mastery long term, but I also needed to test my kids more frequently to make sure they were really understanding the material. Otherwise, I would tend to let them flounder, not realizing that they were having trouble.

 

I typically work through a chapter or two over a couple long days, picking out problems that I think show a detailed understanding of a concept. Some come from the sample problems, some from lessons and some from the review. I don't use the starred challenge problems for this. Then I will put together a test of a handful of problems I think give a good spot check. Put fewer problems on the test than you think you need to. It's a spot check. You can change the numbers if you want, but I also found that just changing the scenario, leaving the numbers the same also worked. It was rare that my kids simply remembered the answer to a problem, even though they had done them before.

 

 

I was wondering about testing. I think my ds will need more frequent testing as well. I have another question for down the road. How do you know if this program is not working for your child? I have read some threads on the board about how AoPS killed their child's love of math. I know that it will be challenging and that this program appeals to certain kids but I don't want to give up to easily. Does that make sense?

[Lily_Grace]

 

I was wondering about testing. I think my ds will need more frequent testing as well. I have another question for down the road. How do you know if this program is not working for your child? I have read some threads on the board about how AoPS killed their child's love of math. I know that it will be challenging and that this program appeals to certain kids but I don't want to give up to easily. Does that make sense?

 

 

We had to give it a while. The first month here was filled with tears. It was a new way of doing math and not as easy as before. The tears gave way to frustration, which finally went to pride and can-do. Once my kid got about 5 chapters in I had him go back to the first chapter review and do it. The problems that took him 3 days were completed in one session. He started to make the connection between what he did then and what he was doing at the moment. That's our new M.O - complete the chapter, go back and redo a review. Play on Alcumus when things get too hard. Take it slow and don't worry about the pace.

[Julie of KY]

I agree with the above comments.I twould add that the end of the chapter review problems may take more days/time than you initially expect. There are a lot of hard problems at the end of the chapter! We do a lot of alcumus on days that the end of the chapter problems are being worked on. It helps break it up. Try it out and find what works for you, but keep in mind it is better to schedule a time limit rather than number of days on a chapter.

[lisabees]

Chris - I understand your concerns. We just started with AoPS also. Ds started with the online class after easily succeeding in traditional math classes. The online class was way too fast and really damaged his ego for two weeks. ;) Because he is used to getting As easily, he wanted to forget about AoPS. I read him a few articles from Rusczyk about hard problems and problem solving etc. and told him I wanted him to work through the book on his own.

 

Ds is a compliant kid, so he did so. Chapters 1-11 were a review, so it wasn't too much trouble for him. It was a great way to gently prepare him. Then "Algebra 2" began. You know what? He started to really enjoy the way the book was written. Yes, he can still get frustrated when he is stuck on a challenge problem, but if I eventually ask him a question that changes the way he looks at the problem, he feverishly works on the problem and gets it right. He really likes AoPS now.

 

I guess my advice is to allow some transition time. It's especially difficult for the kids who easily get 100s in other math courses. Just prepare your son for the changes in expectations and thinking.

 

My concern is whether or not AoPS will prepare ds for SAT-type problems. Does he need additional practice on traditional problems? Is there anything with which I should supplement?

 

My other concern is whether I am doing enough as an instructor. Okay, I am not doing anything, other than the occasional question to guide him in a different direction. Should I even be doing that (it's only happened twice)? How do I know that he is actually getting it? Ds is working through this book on his own. Kind of scary for me.

 

Oh - and ds works on math for an hour to hour and a half. He just follows his instincts about when to finish for the day.

 

ETA: Great idea about using alcumus to break things up during end-of-chapter days. Thanks!

[regentrude]

My concern is whether or not AoPS will prepare ds for SAT-type problems. Does he need additional practice on traditional problems? Is there anything with which I should supplement?

 

He will be prepared to THINK critically about math and have a thorough conceptual understanding.

Of course you need to still use a test prep book to get an idea of the particular flavor of the SAT questions- but you have to do that with any math program.

 

My other concern is whether I am doing enough as an instructor. Okay, I am not doing anything, other than the occasional question to guide him in a different direction. Should I even be doing that (it's only happened twice)? How do I know that he is actually getting it? Ds is working through this book on his own. Kind of scary for me.

 

The books are written TO the student and are meant to be used without an instructor. You know he is getting it if he can solve the problems - the student can not possibly solve the challenge problems if he did not "get" it.

My kids work through the books independently and ask when they get stuck. I help them get unstuck. The role of teh instructor is played by the book.

[regentrude]

I was wondering about testing. I think my ds will need more frequent testing as well. I have another question for down the road. How do you know if this program is not working for your child? I have read some threads on the board about how AoPS killed their child's love of math. I know that it will be challenging and that this program appeals to certain kids but I don't want to give up to easily. Does that make sense?

 

I do not see the benefit of frequent testing, since math needs to be mastered for long term retention. You need to keep checking whether he is able to solve all problems and exercises; that is how you see whether your student understands the material. I do not understand why this would be insufficient for checking whether the material is mastered and why I need extra "tests" if I can just see how the regular chapter review went, for example.

 

You know it is working if he enjoys math with AoPS and shares their excitement, if he tells you "guess what cool problem I solved today" or exclaims "this is really neat!" when he does math.

You know it is not working if he does not understand the explanations, can not work the problems, hates the program, is continuously frustrated (occasional frustration is OK; I still remember the day when we worked the linear optimization problem about Farmer Fred for over an hour.)

[Jen in NY]

Lisa and others:

 

We found that AoPS was not really sufficient preparation for the SAT math section/ SAT Math exams.

There is something 'special' about the SAT, and it just takes doing a lot of the problems to get used to it.

 

Things we used:

SAT Blue Book Just doing a million and one math problems - getting used to the format and the way they ask questions. Also, to identify gaps.

PWN the SAT: Funny, irreverant look at the Math SAT, great advice and test taking techniques (aka 'gaming' the system, or just being wise to the 'tricks')

 

For the Math SAT IIs:

Dr. John Chung's SAT II Math - two books - one for each level. Lots of SAT II practice.

 

Seems like a lot, but a little practice every day (15min?) did the trick.

HTH

[lisabees]

He will be prepared to THINK critically about math and have a thorough conceptual understanding.

Of course you need to still use a test prep book to get an idea of the particular flavor of the SAT questions- but you have to do that with any math program.

The books are written TO the student and are meant to be used without an instructor. You know he is getting it if he can solve the problems - the student can not possibly solve the challenge problems if he did not "get" it.

My kids work through the books independently and ask when they get stuck. I help them get unstuck. The role of teh instructor is played by the book.

 

Whew. I feel better. Thank you!

[lisabees]

Lisa and others:

 

We found that AoPS was not really sufficient preparation for the SAT math section/ SAT Math exams.

There is something 'special' about the SAT, and it just takes doing a lot of the problems to get used to it.

 

Things we used:

SAT Blue Book Just doing a million and one math problems - getting used to the format and the way they ask questions. Also, to identify gaps.

PWN the SAT: Funny, irreverant look at the Math SAT, great advice and test taking techniques (aka 'gaming' the system, or just being wise to the 'tricks')

 

For the Math SAT IIs:

Dr. John Chung's SAT II Math - two books - one for each level. Lots of SAT II practice.

 

Seems like a lot, but a little practice every day (15min?) did the trick.

HTH

 

Hi Jen! :seeya:

 

My fear stems from earlier threads, in which I read similar stories. I am glad you responded. I am familiar with PWN and Dr. Chung, but I don't have them. I don't need them yet for the 13 year old, but will need them for the sophomore. Thanks for the reminder.

 

For now, ds does the SAT Question of the Day. That seems sufficient for a 7th grader. :)

[Chris in PA]

You know it is working if he enjoys math with AoPS and shares their excitement, if he tells you "guess what cool problem I solved today" or exclaims "this is really neat!" when he does math.

You know it is not working if he does not understand the explanations, can not work the problems, hates the program, is continuously frustrated (occasional frustration is OK; I still remember the day when we worked the linear optimization problem about Farmer Fred for over an hour.)

 

 

Thanks Regentrude! This was just what I was looking for.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I do not see the benefit of frequent testing, since math needs to be mastered for long term retention. You need to keep checking whether he is able to solve all problems and exercises; that is how you see whether your student understands the material. I do not understand why this would be insufficient for checking whether the material is mastered and why I need extra "tests" if I can just see how the regular chapter review went, for example.

 

You know it is working if he enjoys math with AoPS and shares their excitement, if he tells you "guess what cool problem I solved today" or exclaims "this is really neat!" when he does math.

You know it is not working if he does not understand the explanations, can not work the problems, hates the program, is continuously frustrated (occasional frustration is OK; I still remember the day when we worked the linear optimization problem about Farmer Fred for over an hour.)

 

 

Different kids need different methods of assessment and encouragement. My kids can do pretty well at completing a chapter and the chapter review, but still need to refer back to the chapter for reminders. But they might look at the same problems on a closed book test/quiz/assessment and have a different level of confidence (or lack thereof).

 

There is some research that suggests tests are an important part of learning as they provide a step in which the student has to demonstrate what they do or don't know and tend to remember the material better after testing - even if they got it wrong on the actual test. I don't know to what extent this is a factor here. I do know that they have asked for more frequent tests and not only end of the semester. I honor that request. They still have to remember it at the end of the semester and end of the year.

 

For other students it may look different.

[regentrude]

There is some research that suggests tests are an important part of learning as they provide a step in which the student has to demonstrate what they do or don't know and tend to remember the material better after testing - even if they got it wrong on the actual test.

 

 

Very interesting. I have never heard of this.

Do you think that is because the students do extra review for the test (which they would not do otherwise), or that this is the only occasion where they do not use reference materials (such as flipping back to the chapter)? Or is it that they only give their fullest effort if they know it is a test? (I can certainly see THIS in my college students!)

I could see all those mechanisms at play, and I could see ways to simulate the first two without doing the actual test by having periodic review and by having the student work problems without access to other materials.

I wonder what aspect you think it is that makes the tests beneficial for your students.

 

(I want to make it very clear that I am NOT arguing with you! I am just curious!)

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Lisa and others:

 

We found that AoPS was not really sufficient preparation for the SAT math section/ SAT Math exams.

There is something 'special' about the SAT, and it just takes doing a lot of the problems to get used to it.

 

Things we used:

SAT Blue Book Just doing a million and one math problems - getting used to the format and the way they ask questions. Also, to identify gaps.

PWN the SAT: Funny, irreverant look at the Math SAT, great advice and test taking techniques (aka 'gaming' the system, or just being wise to the 'tricks')

 

For the Math SAT IIs:

Dr. John Chung's SAT II Math - two books - one for each level. Lots of SAT II practice.

 

Seems like a lot, but a little practice every day (15min?) did the trick.

HTH

 

 

I don't think that there are many math programs that in and of themselves are good prep for the SAT math subtests. The SAT reasoning exam is designed to be tricky. There is a certain amount of test prep that gets a student ready for this approach to test writing.

 

I don't think that AoPS lacks in teaching the algebra needed to solve the problems on the SAT.

 

Having said that, it is worth looking at the scope of the SAT and making sure that the student has some familiarity with diverse topics that might show up, like probability.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Very interesting. I have never heard of this.

Do you think that is because the students do extra review for the test (which they would not do otherwise), or that this is the only occasion where they do not use reference materials (such as flipping back to the chapter)? Or is it that they only give their fullest effort if they know it is a test? (I can certainly see THIS in my college students!)

I could see all those mechanisms at play, and I could see ways to simulate the first two without doing the actual test by having periodic review and by having the student work problems without access to other materials.

I wonder what aspect you think it is that makes the tests beneficial for your students.

 

(I want to make it very clear that I am NOT arguing with you! I am just curious!)

 

 

If I recall the gist of the article, they suggested that there was something about the act of taking the test that stimulated a stronger recall of the material later. It was more profound for tests that were open ended, like essay tests or math tests with problems to solve, than multiple choice type tests.

 

Though I would also say that the mechanisms you point to also seem to be in action at our house. I wrote up a review for your chapters 1-14 test and it was a very good review process for my kids. There was a lot that they had learned and then shelved in the dusty corners of their brains. It was good for them to have to recall those details again.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

 

If I recall the gist of the article, they suggested that there was something about the act of taking the test that stimulated a stronger recall of the material later. It was more profound for tests that were open ended, like essay tests or math tests with problems to solve, than multiple choice type tests.

 

Though I would also say that the mechanisms you point to also seem to be in action at our house. I wrote up a review for your chapters 1-14 test and it was a very good review process for my kids. There was a lot that they had learned and then shelved in the dusty corners of their brains. It was good for them to have to recall those details again.

 

 

I think this is the article I'm thinking of. Test-Taking Cements Knowledge Better than Studying from NYTimes

This looks like the report on the study. To be fair, it seems they were comparing specifically to a couple means of studying, such as mind mapping. So I don't know how testing stacks up against sets of challening problems as you would have in AoPS.

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

Well I finally took the plunge and ordered AoPS Introduction to Algebra. My ds (9th grade) started it today. He is also doing TT geometry this year as his primary math and we had been using some other things to review algebra 1. I am hoping this is a good fit for my boy who sees math in his head. I do have a question. I am thinking instead of scheduling a lesson per day that I should just set a time for math each day (say 90 minutes). Would that be a better way to approach it?

 

Thanks!

 

 

I started with a lesson a day with AoPS but had to change quickly to avoid student frustration. I ended up planning 4 lessons a week but dd still works on math 5 days a week and sometimes on the weekend. My husband writes short (usually around 12 questions) end of chapter tests. Some weeks this is a large goal, some weeks we get ahead. For dd not having a set goal of what to complete in a week is like giving permission to drag out every math lesson to ridiculous lengths. I find that the tests allow us to recognize which subjects aren't being retained or understood-something that is harder (for us) to do with just the problem sets. I do think AoPS can be used quite well without tests. It really depends on the individual student and their needs.

[daijobu]

 

I was wondering about testing. I think my ds will need more frequent testing as well. I have another question for down the road. How do you know if this program is not working for your child? I have read some threads on the board about how AoPS killed their child's love of math. I know that it will be challenging and that this program appeals to certain kids but I don't want to give up to easily. Does that make sense?

 

 

DD is doing Pre-Algebra, so for me, her performance on the AMC8 tests are most important. If her AMC8's are high and improving, then I figure AOPS is preparing her for college admissions.

 

The universities we have our eye on want to see solid AMC scores. I'm going to go out on a limb and venture that SATs won't be so important to us.