Saxon vs. SIngapore

[bethben]

I'm having an internal debate. My ds #3 is currently finishing Singapore 2B. I like Singapore for the most part. I like their word problems and how they teach a child to think mathematically. What I don't like is how it skims some topics like time, patterns, etc. He'll have a few days of time problems and then that's it until it's in a review section much later. My oldest son went through the whole series and understood word problems great, but had to review some math concepts because they were skimmed over and not reviewed well. I also don't like that Singapore in this house has never really been independent in any portion of it. I usually find myself helping with every word problem talking ds through it (which I also did with his older brother).

 

So, I'm considering putting ds #3 into Saxon 54 just so I can have a bit more independence from him. I will still be involved in teaching the lesson, but it would be nice to have the homework be independent. I have 3 children to teach including a very wiggly 5 year old, and a ds#2 who is needing guidance with close to high school work.

 

So, the question is - should I forgo Singapore and just do Saxon? Will I regret it?

 

Beth

[DragonflyAcademy]

We used Singapore for 2nd grade and it was challenging but after DD got the hang of it, did very well with it..

 

However I felt the same way and also the multiple books drove me a bit batty.. and the price.. well.. we switched to Saxon.. I put her in Intermediate 3.. (she is in 3rd grade) and she is doing GREAT with Saxon and really really likes it. I love the power up workbook and she is effortlessly getting her times tables this way... They also have an Intermediate 4 book.. I was told the Intermediate books are a nice transition to Saxon upper levels and I have to say, with Intermediate 3.. I agree.. She will move to Saxon 5/4 next year.

[wapiti]

Two thoughts, to help flesh this out: (1) about review, if you know you'd like to add more review on certain topics, is that really a reason to switch (i.e., a big, huge pain in the neck to schedule), considering that you've done so before?

 

(2) Is the independence issue a function not just of how the program is set up to be taught, but also a function of the individual student's difficulty with word problems, such that the same issue would be present in another math program (unless the other math program didn't teach word problems to the same depth, which would mean giving up some of that depth to achieve more independence)?

 

On that note, you might consider that MM lessons are similar to SM but set up a little more toward independence generally (and MM is all in one book), though IME, you would still need to help with the lesson part until you get closer to 5th grade; as for word problems, there is explicit instruction in certain chapters, though I would go ahead and assume that the student's difficulties with SM word problems would still be present with MM word problems and so you'd still want to be around to help.

[Mom2TheTeam]

This is a great question! I was thinking about this very thing this morning (because I'm reading WTM for the first time. It's the first addition and she recommends Saxon in it. I have no idea if she still does in the 3rd edition. ;)) I used Saxon in 7th and 8th and I loved it. It really worked very well for me, personally.

 

We currently use Singapore. I really want to love it. We are only in 1a. I feel like I haven't given it a fair chance yet. I do really love the mental math so far. But, I'm very concerned because it definitely teaches in a way I'm not feeling familiar with at all. I'm uncomfortable enough teaching math. I'm just not sure I can teach it at the higher levels if it is a way I don't fully understand. And, it takes forever, IMO.

 

We are definitely going to finish 1b because we already have it and like I said, I don't feel I've given Singapore a fair chance yet. But, after that, I'm thinking we may try Saxon. We can always come back if we want to....though I think it is best to settle on one curriculum and stick with it for math.

[bethben]

I don't mind the way Singapore teaches math and am able to teach it. I just feel like as we get into the older grades, I am finding I have less time to re-teach every concept because they weren't able to get it the first time with the little practice they received on it.

 

Beth

[Ellie]

If you decide to go with Saxon, *be sure* to have your dc take the placement test, rather than just placing him in 54.

 

We didn't get to do all the Saxon series, but what we were able to do, we loved.

[Walking-Iris]

I haven't used SM beyond the K level. But i have looked through it and I vacillate whether I like the approach or not. My ds is using Saxon 5/4 this year and it *has* freed up quite a bit of my time. He does the facts practice and we do the mental math and problem together. Then we read through the lesson and do the lesson practice together. He works the mixed practice on his own and I'm available for questions/help and then it's checked and we work together on any mistakes.

 

I do like the incremental approach. Math isn't my son's strongest subject and the review has been really great for him. I also like giving him a chance to learn how to use a textbook and to organize his materials and be independent in one subject. So much of what we do is teacher involved.

 

Saxon is seems to be either loved/hated. So just be aware you may fall on either side of that. :) Or your child will. My ds has grumbled a bit at times because it's work. . But those are the breaks. I don't like math to be the lazy game. And a parent can't be involved in every lesson , every problem set, all of the time. A kid eventually needs to learn how to study and do some work without someone holding their hand.

 

Also I have noticed in SM K that there isn't imo enough practice in certain areas.

[Spy Car]

Are you using the US Edition of Primary Mathematics, or the Standards Edition?

 

Bill

[Crimson Wife]

I would use MM or perhaps the new online Singapore Math Buddies if you basically like Singapore but want something more independent. Saxon is a solid enough program but many kids who do well in Singapore would find the extreme "spiral" format far too repetitious.

[wapiti]

I don't mind the way Singapore teaches math and am able to teach it. I just feel like as we get into the older grades, I am finding I have less time to re-teach every concept because they weren't able to get it the first time with the little practice they received on it.

 

Beth

 

More random thoughts:

 

Do you use the extra books, either on level or behind a half or whole level?

 

Are you saying that the text and workbook are not enough practice for them to get it? Are you thinking that the organization of Saxon may be better for them - less practice up front but constant returning to the topic in later problem sets?

 

Are you asking whether there may be a difference in depth, in concept explanation and/or word problem/problem-solving practice between the two programs?

[amsunshine]

No advice re: Saxon. However, if you wanted more review on the topics in Singapore, you could use the extra workbooks -- I particularly like the Intensive Practice workbooks for this, but you could also use the extra practice books. We use the IP books one topic behind, so once my dd finishes a particular topic in the book, she will work on that topic in the IP book while she is working on the new topic in the text/workbook. I just have her do a page or two in the IP book after she finishes her regular workbook problems.

[bethben]

I do like the setup of Saxon where they are continually practicing problems. I've had to review concepts (like subtraction with borrowing) because they hadn't been practiced in a while. I noticed similar issues when we got up into level 5. Ds would learn all about adding/ subtracting fractions and then move on to another concept for a couple if weeks and promptly forget everything. I just like Singapore word problems a lot better. Maybe I just need to combine the two and be done with it. I'm just afraid I won't follow through (I know myself too well).

 

Beth

 

I'm currently using US version although the fractions issue happened when we did the standards edition.

[Spy Car]

I do like the setup of Saxon where they are continually practicing problems. I've had to review concepts (like subtraction with borrowing) because they hadn't been practiced in a while. I noticed similar issues when we got up into level 5. Ds would learn all about adding/ subtracting fractions and then move on to another concept for a couple if weeks and promptly forget everything. I just like Singapore word problems a lot better. Maybe I just need to combine the two and be done with it. I'm just afraid I won't follow through (I know myself too well).

 

Beth

 

I'm currently using US version although the fractions issue happened when we did the standards edition.

 

 

I wondered because when you said you felt some topics were skimmed and had less than sufficient review for you purposes whither you'd tried the Standards Edition, which has more depth and more built-in review.

 

We also get review and depth using the Intensive Practice books.

 

At the end of the day Primary Mathematics is not designed to be an independent study curriculum. It is designed so there is a lot of teacher/parent interaction with the student in addition to independent practice. But it is not "written to the student." For that there is Math Mammoth.

 

Bill

[Crimson Wife]

I do like the setup of Saxon where they are continually practicing problems. I've had to review concepts (like subtraction with borrowing) because they hadn't been practiced in a while. I noticed similar issues when we got up into level 5. Ds would learn all about adding/ subtracting fractions and then move on to another concept for a couple if weeks and promptly forget everything. I just like Singapore word problems a lot better. Maybe I just need to combine the two and be done with it. I'm just afraid I won't follow through (I know myself too well).

 

 

 

I have my kids do their regular SM lessons M-Th and then use Fridays for reviews. They do the end-of-chapter reviews 1 semester behind (e.g. the A book when they are in B ). I find that for my students, the reviews are overkill when SM has them scheduled, but perfect when done 1 semester back. I also have them take placement tests for other math programs (MM, Horizons, CLE, TT, etc.) on some review Fridays.

[Five More Minutes]

What I don't like is how it skims some topics like time, patterns, etc. He'll have a few days of time problems and then that's it until it's in a review section much later. My oldest son went through the whole series and understood word problems great, but had to review some math concepts because they were skimmed over and not reviewed well. I also don't like that Singapore in this house has never really been independent in any portion of it. I usually find myself helping with every word problem talking ds through it (which I also did with his older brother).

 

My dd is finishing up 2B (Standards Edition) as well.

 

One way that we build in extra review is by using the Intensive Practice books a half-level back. And because she's using it behind her current workbook / textbook level, she's able to use it almost entirely independently. We just discuss the tricky problems.

 

We also use the Challenging Word Problems a half level behind, and I wouldn't hesitate to use them a full level behind. She's able to do a lot of the word problems independently, with me reviewing strategies with her only for some of the harder problems.

 

Maybe it's possible to tweak Singapore further before switching to a different program?

[Sarah CB]

A number of years ago I sat down and compared word problems between the two programs:

 

http://www.redshift.com/~bonajo/singaporeword.htm

 

My dd used Singapore all the way through until she went into grade 11 in high school. She is currently doing Calculus 12, graduates this year, and has applied to a number of different engineering schools. Singapore was instrumental in developing a deep understanding and love for math.

[EKS]

I would switch to the Standards Edition if the review is an issue. I'd also use the CWP book a level behind because that will give review while allowing your child to practice word problems on more accessible material.

[KellyMama]

Saxon is a solid enough program but many kids who do well in Singapore would find the extreme "spiral" format far too repetitious.

 

 

This is exactly why I'm transitioning my 3rd gr DS to SM next year rather than Saxon. He's been doing Abeka but the plan was always to switch to Saxon 5/4 next year - until I discovered (and made my peace with teaching) SM ;) Both my girls do Saxon and the repetition is great - if you need it. I'm concerned it would bore my son to tears! Once he's mastered something, he's done with it and wants to move on. He's never yet forgotten a concept - not that it couldn't happen at a higher level, but for now, this repetitious method is unnecessary for him. I think whether switching to Saxon is the right move depends on the student - although I totally hear you on the needing independent math! ;)