Please tell me pros/cons of HS Math Curriculum

[lamkinmd]

This question is for parents of high schoolers who have "been there, done that." I'm looking ahead at options for high school math curriculum for my ds (who will be in 8th grade next year). I'd appreciate your perspective on high school math curriculum--pros/cons, what worked, what didn't, what you or the kids liked, etc.

 

Here's what we've used so far. For 1st-5th grades, we used Everyday Mathematics (http://everydaymath.uchicago.edu/) and for 6th-7th, we used Connected Mathematics 2 (http://www.phschool.com/cmp2/). I've been mostly pleased with these programs and feel they've focused on understanding math (vs. just "doing" it), and have integrated proper mathematical terminology and algebra and geometry concepts from the beginning. I am pretty confident a good foundation has been laid. My ds is solid in math, but I haven't yet seen a spark that tells me he is wired to love it and enjoy playing with it in his spare time (although being on a robotics team last year has been a math motivator).

 

Any tips / perspectives on math curriculum would be helpful. Thanks.

[regentrude]

As I wrote in my pm:

we have been using AoPS, from Intro to Algebra through Calculus, and are very happy, It is a great program for a strong, motivated, math student who does well with a discovery based approach and is willing to work harder than with any traditional math curriculum. But it is not a good fit for every student.

 

We used Saxon for prealgebra, and were never so glad to be done with a piece of curriculum: we found it dry and joyless; the incremental spiral and the jumping between unrelated topics drove us crazy; there was too much drill&kill and too little conceptual depth for our liking. But then, for some students this may be exactly the right program to use.

[Candid]

For a less discovery oriented but strong program, you can look at Singapore math's Discovering Math series. We did an older series (now fading in to OoP status), NEM and switched nicely to AoPs when it ran out.

[lamkinmd]

Thanks for the replies. I've heard several positive recommendations for AoPS, so I spent some time browsing their website. I hadn't heard about the program before, so thanks. For those who have used AoPS, I have a couple questions.

 

1. Do you generally feel the student book gives all the teaching/explanation the student needs (or you might need to answer a question)?

2. Do your students use the AoPS forums? (Are responses to questions written by students, adults, both?)

3. What is the highest level you've used, and how long did you use it before the student and you felt comfortable with the curriculum?

 

For those who are happy with another high school curriculum, what is it and what do you like about it?

[StephanieZ]

AoPS rocks our world. For a truly math-loving kid who is willing to stretch his mind, I can't imagine a better program. It is really spectacular, IMHO. (I am very mathy, and I love math, and my kids are naturals, so this might not be a universal opinion, but for US, it is truly awesome.)

 

1. I think the majority of students (even assuming mathy and motivated) would need either a parent/teacher or the teaching provided in the online classes to handle AoPS. It is tough stuff, and requires creativity and willingness to struggle. I am sure there are a few kids out there who could pick up an AoPS book and run with it . . .but I think it'd be a big stretch for most. It is not a self-teaching curriculum for most, IMHO.

 

Also, it is tough stuff! Expect to learn along side your kid, even if you have a big math background. AoPS is different. I had been able to tutor my kids through Thinkwell Alg 1 & 2 with no prep, just walk in, see the problem, spend a couple min reviewing something maybe, and always able to walk them through it. With AoPS, that never happens, lol. Even in the PreAlg book, there are MANY times I have to think, read, look over the lesson, etc. Sometimes there are ones that stump me, too! (And I took and later tutored math through Engineering/math major 3 semester calc, etc.)

 

2. My kids don't use the forums much. My youngest learns is currently studying just with me, but she took the online classes for PreAlg last year and enjoyed the real time class interactions, but is/was too young to pursue online interactions on the forums, etc. My older two kids are now in AoPS classes (dd16 in Alg 3 and ds13 in Geo), and they interact a LOT with other students outside of class time, some via the Classroom (that is available for use at other times for meetups to work collaboratively) and dd16 practically lives in Google Chat meetings with a gang from her Alg3 class. They work on problem sets, and then they gab, too, lol. ds13 works with groups in the classroom.

 

3. So far, various kids have done PreAlg, C&P, Alg 1, Alg 3, and Geo. Dd16 is enrolled in PreCalc (just got the books today) starting in April (over the summer! voluntarily!) starting around the time Alg 3 wraps up. I think it takes a couple weeks to a month to get the hang of the general approach/set up of the books. They are very different from traditional texts, in that you are asked to give serious attempts to problems BEFORE they teach you how to do them. Then you read through the answers/explanations of those problems, and some more rules/info/etc. THEN, there are the typical end-of-section problems. You do those, and check them in the Teacher book. You do that for each chapter section (so 4 to 8 sections usually). Then at the end of the chapter, there is a problem set of review problems, and a whole second set of "challenge" problems. Dd16 plans to take the Calc class for 2013-2014 and will register for it as soon as the date is set and registration opens.

 

Once you've worked through two of these entire chapters, you'll have a pretty good feel for how the program works, and you shouldn't have any more big surprises.

 

If you are doing it with the books at home (not the online classes), be sure to figure out Alcumus and take advantage of it. It is AWESOME, and should not be missed. The libraries of online videos are also really great, and are expanding rapidly, so if there are videos for the text you choose, don't miss them!

 

HTH

[regentrude]

1. The books are written towards the student and can be used without an instructor. We use the books only, not the online classes.

The pedagogy is extremely well thought out, not by some "education" expert, but by from the point of view of somebody who genuinely loves math and uses it. The discovery method works really well; there is a lot of thought in the problems that guides the students towards discovering the lesson's goal. The exercises are not of a drill&kill kind that encourages rote memorization, but every problem is slightly different, and the student has to think about how the section's concepts apply for each and every problem.

We always purchase the solution manual; the worked out solutions are helpful for the especially hard problems.

My kids use the books mostly independently; they ask occasional questions when there is something they can not figure out.

 

2. We do not use the forums.

 

3. My oldest student is my 15 y/o DD who is just finishing AoPS Calculus. She has used AoPS for Intro to Algebra, Geometry, Intermediate Algebra and Precalculus.

My 13 y/o DS is currently finishing intro to Algebra and has worked through the Intro to Counting&Probability book.

We completely fell in love with the curriculum upon the first few pages of the Algebra book. My DH, a professor for theoretical physics and math expert, gave the book his highest praise when he repeatedly found that he would have explained a concept exactly in the same manner.

[Luckymama]

We're still AoPS newbies, compared to the above!

 

1. I feel there is enough explanation and instruction in the books (at least so far). Sometimes dd gets stuck so I give her a hint similar to the "hints" section at the back of the book. I work every single problem ahead of dd.

 

2. Dd doesn't use the forums yet.

 

3. We both felt comfortable with the AoPS way in the middle of the first chapter of Pre-Algebra! Dd has used that, Intro to Counting and Probability, all of the algebra 1 portion of Intro to Algebra, and is currently in the midst of algebra 2. She has started Geometry and will be taking the online Geometry course from March through September (her choice, through the summer.) Number Theory is sitting on the shelf behind me, waiting for a turn. If dd homeschools high school, we will stick with AoPS----probably a mix of "just the text" and online classes.

[Candid]

1. We do not use any outside teaching with the book. My son follows their lesson in the book by first working the problems they give and then reading their explanation of how they should have been worked and doing the exercise at the end. Thus far he has only hit the wall with one of the introductory problems and after doing the others in the set, their explanation made sense to him and he was able to do the exercise following with no problems.

 

2. We do not use the forums or the online class. We do buy the solution manual but he has not had to use it.

 

3. We just started, as indicated above, this year with pre-calculus. Singapore had already provided him with some calculus but not all so this was nice level to begin with. He's 16 and a sophomore; he's not a mathy student, but he is bright.

[snowbeltmom]

I have been using AoPS now for 5 years, and have used all of the books to date with the exception of calculus. AoPS is a great program if your child enjoys math and wants to devote a great deal of time to math each day. If my kids' interests were more in the humanities and foreign languages, we would not be using AoPS because of the time commitment that is required.

[mschickie]

We used Saxon for Algebra through Calculus for sd. I loved the program and so did sd. I thought it was well written so the student could follow along. The examples were detailed enough with explanations to go along with them. I also am a strong advocate for the spiral approach. The material is broken down in a way that does not overwhelm and the constant repetition of problems allows for continual reinforcement of skills which is essential in Mathematics. Dd had been an honors student in Mathematics in the ps. When we pulled her out and she started using Saxon she said this was a much better approach (at least for her). She loved that it did not let her forget anything so she did not have to spend extra hours reviewing material when it came for the tests, they just flowed naturally like another assignment. It took much of the stress off of her especially for the end of the year test.

[Julie in MN]

We love Math Relief for algebra I and II at our house, both for a strong math student and a struggling one. Mr. Firebaugh is like Mr. Rogers in that he's slow and careful, but he's gifted at this and takes the students far. All the lessons are on video, all the answers are fully worked out, and they answer email.

 

For geometry, I like Jacobs but my son thought it was too conversational. Ds liked Teaching Textbooks (for geometry only).

 

My son also thought AOPS (probability) was too conversational, or that it was like a teacher who has a point but wants the student to say it, or something like that. It annoyed ds to no end, but I do think for the student who enjoys and feels empowerd by math discovery, AOPS is one of the more advanced programs out there.

 

My son then went to a college for Algebra 3 and currently Precalculus. He had to get used to the pace (twice as fast as a high school course), but otherwise I think the college option for older kids is good. Ds likes having a really knowledgeable math teacher again (like he felt he had with Mr. Firebaugh).

 

My son was also on a math team for several years, which was a good experience, and his coach really liked Saxon, so that's another option.

 

Julie

[lamkinmd]

Thanks for the replies. It seems there is a good deal of variation about how much/little students using AoPS are able to self-teach, and/or need teacher or online instruction. I guess we'd need to try it and see what works for my ds.

 

I do think for the student who enjoys and feels empowerd by math discovery, AOPS is one of the more advanced programs out there.

AoPS is a great program if your child enjoys math and wants to devote a great deal of time to math each day. If my kids' interests were more in the humanities and foreign languages, we would not be using AoPS because of the time commitment that is required.

In regard to the above 2 quotes from Julie and snowbeltmom, I would not say my ds yet "feels empowered by math discovery," or "wants to devote a great deal of time to math each day." He's solid in math, is starting to enjoy the puzzle-solving nature of it, and is appreciating what math can do for him (via programming and robotics). I think he's going to be more of an applied math person, than a theoretical math person. My ds averages about 90 minutes a day on math, but wants to get it done ASAP. At 12yo/7th grade, he does get frustrated easily, but comes around and retackles the task after he's had a chance to cool off. I'd say this is more developmental than math specific, but he wouldn't naturally have a cheerful "willingness to struggle." He's very pleased when he gets a tough problem correct, and likes feeling accomplishment. Would you recommend AoPS for someone described this way?

[Nscribe]

He's very pleased when he gets a tough problem correct, and likes feeling accomplishment. Would you recommend AoPS for someone described this way?

 

I would think so, but the best way to know is to try. Dd is a Saxon gal, she likes it. I like AOPS (and Jacobs and Forester....). I will take bits from the others and just give her a check of sorts from time to time. She likes math and humors me. AOPS gives some great opportunities to play with math.

[regentrude]

, I would not say my ds yet "feels empowered by math discovery," or "wants to devote a great deal of time to math each day."... My ds averages about 90 minutes a day on math, but wants to get it done ASAP. At 12yo/7th grade, he does get frustrated easily, but comes around and retackles the task after he's had a chance to cool off. I'd say this is more developmental than math specific, but he wouldn't naturally have a cheerful "willingness to struggle." He's very pleased when he gets a tough problem correct, and likes feeling accomplishment. Would you recommend AoPS for someone described this way?

 

 

My kids do not spend a lot of time daily on math. For DS I require one hour.

But they certainly have the feeling of accomplishent after puzzling out a hard problem - that is what is needed for AoPS. Hours and hours of daily time investment is NOT a requirement.

[snowbeltmom]

 

In regard to the above 2 quotes from Julie and snowbeltmom, I would not say my ds yet "feels empowered by math discovery," or "wants to devote a great deal of time to math each day." He's solid in math, is starting to enjoy the puzzle-solving nature of it, and is appreciating what math can do for him (via programming and robotics). I think he's going to be more of an applied math person, than a theoretical math person. My ds averages about 90 minutes a day on math, but wants to get it done ASAP. At 12yo/7th grade, he does get frustrated easily, but comes around and retackles the task after he's had a chance to cool off. I'd say this is more developmental than math specific, but he wouldn't naturally have a cheerful "willingness to struggle." He's very pleased when he gets a tough problem correct, and likes feeling accomplishment. Would you recommend AoPS for someone described this way?

 

Considering your bolded statement, I would say AoPS would be a good fit.

[snowbeltmom]

Hours and hours of daily time investment is NOT a requirement.

 

 

I think this depends on whether or not your child is taking the online class. I think it would be extremely rare for a student taking an online class to complete all of the assigned work devoting just an hour a day to math.

[regentrude]

I think this depends on whether or not your child is taking the online class. I think it would be extremely rare for a student taking an online class to complete all of the assigned work devoting just an hour a day to math.

 

Absolutely. I was thinking of using the books only, which is what we do. We go at whatever pace is appropriate for the student.

I would recommend the online class only for the student who lives and breathes math and loves it enough to put in the time. A student who is happy to be done after 60-90 minutes can still profit from AoPS, but the class would not be a good fit for him.

[lamkinmd]

Thanks for the replies. They make me feel like AoPS might be a little more realistic. I was beginning to get the impression AoPS was only for the highly gifted math students who enjoyed living and breathing math. If doing the books only is realistic and practical, (not needing the on-line classes), it sounds like a good option.

[Nscribe]

"Math" is a 4 letter word too. Anyone have a great solution for "Math" + "Teen" = ?

[rdj2027]

I am just going to add my experience to confuse you even more. My 11 year old has never tested above "Basic" on standardized tests. He has not mastered his math facts, has a hard time to decipher word problems and has been in remedial math since 3rd grade. He says he strongly dislikes math. We currently work through MM and it takes him about an hour to complete one page.

 

Shortly after we pulled him out of PS last year I had a rather odd experience; I was solving an equation with three variables when he came in from playing outside. He took one look and told me the solution was 1, 2 and 3 for the respective variables. I thought it was rather odd, came to the conclusion that he simply guessed (the solution was correct).

We continued our struggle and last week there was a day when he finished his math page in about 15 minutes and showed some quite unconventional ways to solve the problems (they were all correct). Again I thought he was simply having a good day but was puzzled by his explanations. Later that day he looked over my shoulder reading the other AOPS thread and asked what it was. I told him it was a math curriculum, rather difficult in nature but he was welcome to look at the Pre-Algebra book on the shelf.

I explained to him that they present a problem and he would have to figure out how to solve it.

After an hour we had completed the first three sections and this child who could not do math had explained EVERY SINGLE PROBLEM including the EXERCISES correctly to me and proclaimed that this was a lot of fun. After I had my glass of wine and chocolate bar I decided to let him go through a section farther in the book to see what he would do with it. I chose the ratios and proportions because he struggles so much with them. Again, he solved every single problem and exercise correctly within minutes and had a great time doing it.

 

After having read all AOPS threads over the past year I have come to the conclusion that it is a program that must be tried, that this is a program that is much harder to evaluate for its "workability" than others.

 

This child was the most unlikely candidate for AOPS but it has turned out that he has a natural ability for it that my other children lack. My second son has always been good at math and I thought he would do well with this series. He failed dismally and is happy and excelling with Foerster's. My daughter who I think has the greatest aptitude for math of all our children doesn't like the discovery approach (yet :coolgleamA:, she is currently in 4th grade and thought Beast Academy was utterly silly).

 

When on the fence, try it and see where it takes your child.

[lamkinmd]

Thanks, rjd2027, for sharing about your children's experiences with math. It's wonderful to hear about your 11yo discovering a math program he could do and enjoy. :-)

 

Like you said, we'll have to try it out and see where it takes us.

[jhschool]

I have always been good at Math, so I was happy

when I found Abeka Algebra & Geometry for DC,

which are very drill & kill, lots of exercises, etc. DC got all

the problems right but he wasn't very interested. Those

Abeka books are just the right thing for my kind of brain.

 

He started AoPS and really loves math now. I don't always

follow what he is doing anymore, so I can't help him. But that

is OK because he has his teacher and the forums.

 

So I agree with PP that you have to try it. DC and I are

both good at math, but in completely different ways. I could

never do the creative problem solving things he does. But

I got all As in engineering school math.

 

There are different kinds of mathy people. Do try it. They

are great people. Richard Rusczyk is a genius.

[Kareni]

"Math" is a 4 letter word too. Anyone have a great solution for "Math" + "Teen" = ?

 

 

 

"Math" + "Teen" = "Variable"

 

I suspect it varies depending on the given teen.

 

Regards,

Kareni