Pronouns confusion

[blessedmom3]

English is my 3 rd language and I'm having a hard time understanding pronouns.

This is from rod&staff English 4 , lessons 66&67, pronouns in a predicate and in a subject.

 

Please help me understand when you are supposed to use a subject or a predicate pronoun.

My son, a 9 yo who speaks &reads English better than me, says that these sentences sound correct

"My brother is him"

"My cousin is her"

"Him and Mary"

because that's how he has heard most people talking.

 

But his rod and staff English teaches to use the predicate pronouns ( my brother is he,my cousin is she , he and Mary ) . I have never heard anyone speak like that. Don't you usually say "he is my brother" , instead of my brother is he,she is my cousin , instead of my cousin is she?

 

Is there an easy way for my son and I to understand how to use the correct pronoun ?We are both confused.

Also, in what circumstance do you usually say my cousin is she instead of she is my cousin?

 

[lanabug]

To determine which pronoun to use, try turning the sentence around. Instead of saying, "My brother is him," turn it around to "Him is my brother." That makes it pretty obvious that "him" is not correct in the first sentence.

 

Typically, you will not hear someone say in conversation, "My brother is he." Americans generally use the pronoun first, i.e. "He is my brother."

 

Hope that helps!

 

Lana

[blessedmom3]

Ok,thanks, but there are situations when you can't turn the sentence around. I can't think of an example right now. There must be a rule, but although I'm pretty fluent in English, Rod and Staff grammar is really a foreign language to me! However, after extensively looking at all the grammar programs, I haven't found anything better.

 

Could someone tell me if in this narration, my son was supposed to write "to teach him and his people" or " to teach he and his people" ?

 

Link is here, I can't attach it to TWTM forum,it says the file is too big

 

http://pinterest.com/pin/560768591071798623/

 

 

[Ellie]

Pronouns are either subjective or objective. That is, they can either be used as the subject of a sentence or as the direct object/object of a preposition.

 

Most people SO misuse pronouns. Makes me crazy, lol.

 

Yes, *I* have heard people say "My brother is he," or "When I saw that it was he..." And now that I know it is correct, I say it, too.

 

""My brother is him."

"My cousin is her."

 

Would you say "Him is my brother"? No. Do you see that you could say, "He is my brother"? Then it's a subjective pronoun; "he" can be the subject of a sentence.

 

"Him and Mary" Would you say, "Him can go to the store"? No. You'd say that *he* can go to the store. Subjective.

 

You would say, "I gave the ball to him." Object of the preposition. Objective.

You would say, "I invited him to the party." Direct object. Objective pronoun.

And so you would say, "I gave the ball to Mary and him." Object of the preposition.

And you would say, "I invited Mary and him to the party." Direct object. Objective.

 

Subjective pronouns: he, she, I, they. These pronouns can be the subject of a sentence.

Objective pronouns: him, her, me, them. These pronouns are direct object or object of a preposition.

[thebacabunch]

Good points everyone! I would also suggest some good read alouds of classic children's literature. For ESL or third language (way cool) try things like Beatrix Potter and work up from there. Hearing and reading the language used correctly will help so much. Audiobooks would be fantastic for this. Books like the Jungle Book, the Wizard of Oz, Little Women, Anne of Green Gables, etc. would be good choices. Definately stay away from books that have kids using bad grammar to make the books funny (I am looking at you, Junie B Jones).

[boscopup]

One thing to note about those R&S lessons: They are making up sentences to demonstrate proper use of the pronouns. Those sentences are not necessarily the best way to word what you're trying to say. You are correct that we would usually say, "He is my brother." One place where the subjective form of the pronoun is commonly used in the predicate is answering the phone. If someone calls and asks for me, I will say, "This is she." In this case, "she" is a predicate pronoun, renaming "this". So I must use the subjective form. I wouldn't flip that sentence around and say, "She is this." That makes no sense. :)

 

Your son is correct that people often speak like he says they do. Those people are using incorrect grammar, and that is why R&S spends time on those lessons. :) There are later lessons that may not be as regionally applicable... like the ones where they teach you not to say, "youons". My son has never heard anyone say that, so we skimmed those lessons. He did need the lessons on subject vs object pronouns though, as those are commonly confused in speech. Even I sometimes messed them up, though I do so less after doing those lessons this year! :D

[stripe]

The only person I have ever met in my entire life (a real person, not in a book) who isn't an English teacher, to say, "It is I," is my much younger sister-in-law, for whom English is not a native language. I applaud her for her excellent grammar, which has included exchanges such as, "I?" when clarifying that I am speaking about her, but I do not talk like this; I would say, "Me?" When I talk about this sort of thing with my kids, I tell them one is grammatically correct but the other is the way most people say it. When I feel like being grammatically perfect, I include the verb, so I don't feel so stuffy. So instead of saying just the lonely pronoun, I'd say, "She is," or whatever.

[blessedmom3]

Still confused ,bu I guess my son and I will have to memorize these pronouns. It's hard when most people around us speak incorrectly .

In French you say '"C'est moi" ( it's me) and in Romanian and most other languages I know ,the object pronoun in these cases doesn't exist. You just say he is my brother , never my brother is he! English is complicated!

[Ellie]

Still confused ,bu I guess my son and I will have to memorize these pronouns. It's hard when most people around us speak incorrectly .

In French you say '"C'est moi" ( it's me) and in Romanian and most other languages I know ,the object pronoun in these cases doesn't exist. You just say he is my brother , never my brother is he! English is complicated!

 

 

Is there something more *specific* that confuses you?

 

I learned to enjoy using correct grammar when others do not. Maybe it's my passive-aggressive tendencies coming out, lol. My favorite is using the correct, singular pronoun with "someone" and "everyone" insted of the more common plural pronouns. ::evil grammar nerd grin::

[stripe]

I think this discussion in Serl's Primary Language Lessons is a good indication of the "weird" sounding examples:

 

 

LESSON 86

READING LESSON—DIALOGUE FOR TWO PUPILS

1. Who is it? It is I.

2. Did you knock at the door? No, it was not I; it was he.

3. Is that your brother? Yes, it is he.

4. Who called? It was I.

5. Who threw the snowballs? It was they.

6. Did Mary speak? I think it was she.

7. Who fell down? It was not I.

8. Who laughed? It was we.

9. Who was standing at the window? It was she.

10. Did Helen break her doll? No, it was I who broke it.

11. Is your cousin here? Yes, that is he.

NOTE TO THE TEACHER.—This lesson should be repeated in many different recitations, until the forms no longer seem strange or unusual.

 

 

The other examples, such as "Him and Mary went to the store" or whatever similarly phrased example that people commonly say that sounds right to the ear, I advise ignoring "and Mary," and seeing that "Him went to the store" does not sound correct.

[Belacqua]

When I was young, we lived next door to an elderly couple, and the wife asked us to check on the husband when she had to go out one day. The husband was a former newspaper editor who almost never spoke, as he'd had several strokes and talking was difficult for him.

 

So we went over and my mother opened the door, calling out, "Edwin? It's me." A weak voice came from the bedroom: "It. Is. I."

 

Literally the only thing I ever heard him say. I figure if it was that important to him, I'd better get it right, too.

[RootAnn]

Could someone tell me if in this narration, my son was supposed to write "to teach him and his people" or " to teach he and his people" ?

 

I am by no means a grammar guru. I think this is one of those situation where you can cut off "and his people" and see if the sentence still sounds right.

 

"to teach him."

 

Sounds fine. Should be okay. (Nice handwriting on the narration!)

 

My 5 yr old is still learning not to say, "Them are not playing nice!" He just recently started saying, "She hit me first!" instead of "Her hit me FIRST!"

[Lucy the Valiant]

A handy way to tell if that word following the verb is a PREDICATE NOMINATIVE or a DIRECT OBJECT is to ask - "Does that word EQUAL the subject, or is it something else?"

 

If it EQUALS the subject, use a subjective case pronoun: I, you, he, she, it, we, you, they.

 

If it does NOT EQUAL the subject, use an objective case pronoun: me, you, him, her, it, us, you, them.

[Violet Crown]

If descriptivism annoys you, look away....

 

The reason "It is he" sounds strange, and must be drilled into native English speakers, is because nominative (subject) pronouns (I, he, she, we, they) in object positions are ungrammatical in English. No native speaker says "It is we" or "That would be I" unless they've drunk the hyperprescriptivism Kool-aid.

 

YMMV. But I don't even know what it would mean to say that a grammatical construction that is universal among native speakers of a language is somehow "grammatically wrong."

 

(Edited for a bit of clarity)