CLE Math discovery

[Tiramisu]

We've been using CLE since the 300 level. This year I realized I hadn't ordered any light units beyond 707. I ordered and to kill time I thought I'd have dd work on an old unused 801 light unit that I had on a shelf. By the time the new light units arrived, I discovered dd could do everything in 801, so we just started 802 and skipped 708, 709, and 710. She's now finishing up 803 and we haven't run into a problem. She's not a math whiz but I'm a bit obsessive about doing math everyday.

 

I just thought I'd share this in case anyone is ever in a position that they need to move on but are afraid of missing something in those later light units. I think she could have moved into algebra, as people do after finishing the 700 level, but I think she's benefitting from the reinforcement of pre-algebra concepts and I like the the consumer math. FWIW, I knew I didn't want to start algebra with this dd before eighth grade.

[dereksurfs]

Interesting, thanks for sharing. Our dds are younger and moving in that direction. When first evaluating CLE I found those last two courses the most confusing because of the consumer math added in and the extension of Pre-Algebra over two years. I haven't decided fully what to do after CLE 600. But maybe some combination 700 & 800 would be a good option. I just wouldn't want to miss any important topics for Algebra 1 preparation. I know the consumer math isn't necessary though nice to cover I guess.

[Tiramisu]

Interesting, thanks for sharing. Our dds are younger and moving in that direction. When first evaluating CLE I found those last two courses the most confusing because of the consumer math added in and the extension of Pre-Algebra over two years. I haven't decided fully what to do after CLE 600. But maybe some combination 700 & 800 would be a good option. I just wouldn't want to miss any important topics for Algebra 1 preparation. I know the consumer math isn't necessary though nice to cover I guess.

 

I think the reason why I appreciate the consumer math now is because I have an older dd who will be graduating high school and she knows nothing about real world math. All of the things that I thought were common sense are not, with her anyway. :(

[TracyP]

That is good to know. We have skipped LU -01, -08, -09, and -10 every year from 1st through 4th grade (and soon will be 5th). It seems the last few LU are mostly practice and the new concepts in them are retaught at the next level. I'm sure some kids benefit from that extra practice, but for those who are ready to move more quickly... this is good info.

[Mom0012]

That is good to know. We have skipped LU -01, -08, -09, and -10 every year from 1st through 4th grade (and soon will be 5th). It seems the last few LU are mostly practice and the new concepts in them are retaught at the next level. I'm sure some kids benefit from that extra practice, but for those who are ready to move more quickly... this is good info.

 

Interesting! We always skip the -01 LU, but I never would have thought of skipping the others.

 

I'll also add that my ds is in LU 708 and I had him take the diagnostic test for Lial's BCM, which is considered a pre-algebra course. He knew everything on that test except for two things - weighted mean and a geometry calculation my husband says he would have had to know the pythagorean theorum in order to solve. So, I'm thinking it's probably possible for most to go into algebra straight from CLE 7.

[Sweet Home Alabama]

My ds got through CLE 705 during the summer before starting 7th grade. When he began math in the fall, he went into Lial's Pre-Algebra with Jann in TX, and is doing fine. We loved CLE.

[TracyP]

Interesting! We always skip the -01 LU, but I never would have thought of skipping the others.

 

I'll also add that my ds is in LU 708 and I had him take the diagnostic test for Lial's BCM, which is considered a pre-algebra course. He knew everything on that test except for two things - weighted mean and a geometry calculation my husband says he would have had to know the pythagorean theorum in order to solve. So, I'm thinking it's probably possible for most to go into algebra straight from CLE 7.

 

Sorry OP, quick hijack...

 

I was looking high and low for Lial's placement tests the other day. Am I correct in understanding that you can only find these in the Lial's texts? Or are they available somewhere else?

[dereksurfs]

Interesting! We always skip the -01 LU, but I never would have thought of skipping the others.

 

I'll also add that my ds is in LU 708 and I had him take the diagnostic test for Lial's BCM, which is considered a pre-algebra course. He knew everything on that test except for two things - weighted mean and a geometry calculation my husband says he would have had to know the pythagorean theorum in order to solve. So, I'm thinking it's probably possible for most to go into algebra straight from CLE 7.

 

That's good to hear Pastel. Based on this and your other thread it sounds like BCM would be redundant.

 

Regarding Pre-Algebra courses I will say that scope and sequence varies quite a lot. Some programs introduce more challenging algebraic concepts earlier on. For example AoPS, Dolciani and TabletClass among others go into multivariable linear equations and graphing. I'm not saying some the more advanced topics are absolutely necessary in Pre-A. But since I felt my son was ready for them I wanted a bit more rigorous S&S. That's why I moved him out of MUS Pre-A.

 

I haven't looked at the S&S of CLE 7 or 8 yet. But I wonder if they get into some of these more challenging subjects including those with formulas/theorems?

 

Ok, I just tried to look this up on their website. Yet I'm finding it more difficult than other Pre-A programs to determine S&S, specifically for CLE 7 & 8. There is a very 'general' description here: http://www.clp.org/store/by_subject/4. But I can't find a more detailed S&S for each year and light unit. Actually just a list of the light unit lessons would be fine, like a table of contents. I may have to write them and ask for that.

 

Wait, I think I just found it here: http://www.clp.org/d...e_2012-2013.pdf Looking it over...

[G5052]

Yes, I'm not surprised. If you do indeed look at the S&S, CLE Math 7 and 8 have a lot of overlap. I was going to do Math 8 with one of mine, and decided just to go straight into algebra. No problems there either.

 

That is less true of the lower grades, although we always skipped the *01 unit and sometimes didn't finish the *10 unit. We do math all summer, but if late August rolled around and they were still in *10, I just went to the next grade level. And it worked fine too.

[dereksurfs]

After looking over the S&S I'm not sure what I would do if we continue with CLE for Pre-Algebra. While I agree there is some overlap between 7 & 8, I wouldn't want to skip something important either. For example if one skipped 710 they would miss the intro lesson to graphing linear equations, though without the book its hard to tell how thorough that is. Then if CLE 8 was skipped entirely it would never be covered at all. Similarly the Pythagorean Theorem would never be covered either which only gets introduded in CLE 802.

 

I would most likely use a combination of CLE 7 & 8 if we go this route for Pre-A since many of the Pre-A concepts in CLE 802-807 are not covered in CLE 7. I probably would skip the trig and consumer math toward the end of CLE 8. That can wait.

 

I guess we'll wait and see. While our girls really like CLE for the elementary years, ds11 is really enjoying TabletClass Pre-A right now. So that will be a consideration for them as well. We also have the Dolciani and Lial Pre-A textbooks to compare.

[Mom0012]

 

Sorry OP, quick hijack...

 

I was looking high and low for Lial's placement tests the other day. Am I correct in understanding that you can only find these in the Lial's texts? Or are they available somewhere else?

 

 

There was a diagnostic test near the front of the book I have. I own the 6th edition. Hope that helps.

[TN Mama]

Just here to listen in. We're in CLE LU 607 right now and I'm trying to decide how to proceed from here. :bigear:

[Annabel Lee]

Sorry for the hijack, but I have read about Jann in TX's online math classes for years on this forum but have never known where exactly to find it or sign up. Does she have a website? This is at the top of my list for math next year for a rising 7th grader. Thanks!

[Sweet Home Alabama]

Sorry for the hijack, but I have read about Jann in TX's online math classes for years on this forum but have never known where exactly to find it or sign up. Does she have a website? This is at the top of my list for math next year for a rising 7th grader. Thanks!

 

 

 

This is Jann's website. You can find out about her classes as well as get in touch with her here.

http://www.myhomeschoolmathclass.com/

[Annabel Lee]

Thanks!

[Guest iheartcoffee]

So am I gathering correctly that 607, 608, and 609 would basically be a review of the entire 6th? DD has just completed Teaching Textbooks 6, and I was thinking about getting those last three CLE for her before we got our hands on TT 7.

[dereksurfs]

So am I gathering correctly that 607, 608, and 609 would basically be a review of the entire 6th? DD has just completed Teaching Textbooks 6, and I was thinking about getting those last three CLE for her before we got our hands on TT 7.

 

 

Hm, I am not quite sure where you gathered that information? I don't see any reference to that in this thread? Typically with CLE the math concepts are presented in a spiral fashion. So in the later sections you will get some elabortation on eariler concepts presented as well as introductions to more advanced concepts to come.

 

I am also one to disagree that you can 'always' skip the last section. There are times when important concepts are presented there. Of course they will mostly be elaborated on in the next year because of the spiral nature. IMO, Its better to look at it first before making that decision. Though I agree the first section is typically review, testing the previous year. With that in mind you may want to include 701 for review of 6th grade for example. Then any areas missed can be focused on needing further review. 701 would be a good place to start with for 6th grade review.

 

Take a look at the S&S (Page 40) and it will tell you 'specifically' what is covered in those sections. Then you will be able to best decide which are the ones to use for review: http://www.clp.org/d...e_2012-2013.pdf

[TracyP]

Let me clarify. Because my dd is a fairly strong math student (9.5 in CLE 505) I have to work to keep her challenged. With this in mind, I have always kept an eye on the placement tests to see when we can move to the next level. So far that has meant that after completing the -07 unit she has been able to move on to the new level. New concepts are taught in the later LU's, but they are retaught (often more quickly) in the next year. The OP's comments lead me to believe this is going to continue to be true.

 

This has been a really good decision for my dd. I only mention it in case others are in a similar boat trying to make CLE work for an accelerated student, or if someone is trying to accelerate a student who is "behind". This will probably not be the route most people want to take. I apologize for any confusion.

[dereksurfs]

Let me clarify. Because my dd is a fairly strong math student (9.5 in CLE 505) I have to work to keep her challenged. With this in mind, I have always kept an eye on the placement tests to see when we can move to the next level. So far that has meant that after completing the -07 unit she has been able to move on to the new level. New concepts are taught in the later LU's, but they are retaught (often more quickly) in the next year. The OP's comments lead me to believe this is going to continue to be true.

 

This has been a really good decision for my dd. I only mention it in case others are in a similar boat trying to make CLE work for an accelerated student, or if someone is trying to accelerate a student who is "behind". This will probably not be the route most people want to take. I apologize for any confusion.

 

 

Thanks for the clarification Tracy which is a good point to make. We have to be careful in assuming too many sweeping generalizations for *all* children using CLE at all grade levels. The spiral nature is intended to introduce concepts then build upon them. But for those who may need less spiral, skipping can work as in your dd's case.

 

The other concern I have occurs as one approaches the finish line. If we assume all generalizations to be true then pre-A is reduced down to 702-707 with the 800 series skipped entirely as redundant. So toward the end of this approach quite a bit of math is left out and the Pre-A course is fairly weak and limited IMO.

 

I'm not saying you're proposing all these generalizations. But one has to be careful when combining them all together so that the student does not get short changed in the process. While some children are able to overcome gaps once they reach Algebra 1, for others it will be more difficult. This also depends on the rigor of the Algebra 1 which is selected including its review of Pre-A concepts. For example if Linear Equations and the Pythagorean Theorem are skipped entirely which are normally apart of Pre-A courses, will the child still do fine in Algebra?

[Guest iheartcoffee]

Hm, I am not quite sure where you gathered that information? I don't see any reference to that in this thread? Typically with CLE the math concepts are presented in a spiral fashion. So in the later sections you will get some elabortation on eariler concepts presented as well as introductions to more advanced concepts to come.

 

I am also one to disagree that you can 'always' skip the last section. There are times when important concepts are presented there. Of course they will mostly be elaborated on in the next year because of the spiral nature. IMO, Its better to look at it first before making that decision. Though I agree the first section is typically review, testing the previous year. With that in mind you may want to include 701 for review of 6th grade for example. Then any areas missed can be focused on needing further review. 701 would be a good place to start with for 6th grade review.

 

Take a look at the S&S (Page 40) and it will tell you 'specifically' what is covered in those sections. Then you will be able to best decide which are the ones to use for review: http://www.clp.org/d...e_2012-2013.pdf

 

 

I'm not sure where I got it from, either. :laugh: I think I assumed since I just skimmed and saw the mention of skipping the last light units. I just read more thoroughly. Thanks for the suggestion and the link - thi will help me figure out which units to get. I just don't feel she got enough out of TT6.

[Tiramisu]

Yes, we really need to know our kids. I jumped up because I forgot to order the next set of LU's and realized we could do it once we started going through 801. Generally, I'm being very conservative with this one and will continue through the 800 series this year, for the review, even though it may not be necessary for all kids. This one is strong in math and "ahead," but I'm not confident enough about her long-term memory of concepts and how I think she'll do in pre-calc.

 

My oldest was a math whiz, I thought, and I chose to move quickly through because she always caught on right away and honestly seemed to have mastered certain concepts. Now I think I moved too quickly because she's forgotten some important concepts from those middle school years. Maybe we did not do enough review at the time. It didn't hurt her in high school, but when we've done some testing the weaknesses showed up. She could wind up being one of those who does poorly on a college math placement test despite decent math SAT's and good grades in high school math classes.

[dereksurfs]

That sounds good Tiramisu. Just out of curiosity what have you decided to use for Algebra 1 with your dd after CLE?

[Tiramisu]

With my first dd, I hadn't yet learned about CLE. After taking her out of ps, we used Saxon and MUS in trying to find a good fit. I also used the Calvert series when necessary to fill in gaps and teach traditional algorithms since she had come from using Everyday Math in ps. She used Foerster's for algebra 1 and did well, but did not retain all the well in the year of taking geometry. It took me too long to realized her tendency to seemingly master but not retain long term. :(

[MrsMe]

We found this as well. We're doing 500 series and skipped everything up to 504 because it was the same as the concepts we just learned at the end of the 400's. I heard as posted here that from 07? -10 is redundant. Now I may just believe it.

[dereksurfs]

With my first dd, I hadn't yet learned about CLE. After taking her out of ps, we used Saxon and MUS in trying to find a good fit. I also used the Calvert series when necessary to fill in gaps and teach traditional algorithms since she had come from using Everyday Math in ps. She used Foerster's for algebra 1 and did well, but did not retain all the well in the year of taking geometry. It took me too long to realized her tendency to seemingly master but not retain long term. :(

 

Interesting, this is one of the reasons I want to slow ds11 down once we reach Algebra 1. I am thinking of stretching Algebra 1 out over 7th and 8th grade to really solidify the concepts in his mind before moving on to more advanced subjects. Having a firm Algebraic foundation I think is vital to success in the more advanced topics. I can also see that this would be hard to detect with your oldest as she did so well in Foerster which is a really solid Algebra program. I guess review can be beneficial in more ways than one.

 

On a similar note I was reading a thread on the High School forum in which some were considering skipping pre-calculus and then moving directly into calculus. However much of pre-calculus reviews important algebraic concepts which help in the preparation for more intense math to follow. Sometimes the best path from A to B is the longer one.

[Tiramisu]

In the somewhat distant past, I remember reading posts from people who planned two years of algebra 1, with a year each of a completely different algebra 1 program to really solidify understanding. If I have any doubts at all about this dd having the algebra 1 concepts down, I may consider doing two years of algebra 1. My problem is that she is interested in science so I shouldn't slow down too much unless she actually seems to need it. A solid understanding of algebra 1 is, of course, necessary for higher levels of math, but even if a kid decides not to pursue higher levels of math, it will helpful for the SAT's.

[Mommy22alyns]

I'm not sure where I got it from, either. :laugh: I think I assumed since I just skimmed and saw the mention of skipping the last light units. I just read more thoroughly. Thanks for the suggestion and the link - thi will help me figure out which units to get. I just don't feel she got enough out of TT6.

 

 

Some people might hate me for this, but Rebecca did CLE 200 and TT3 AND 4 and we got basically nothing but computer time out of TT. It was so far behind based on CLE.

 

 

Now, I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what to do with CLE 700 and 800! Y'all have 2 more years to decide for me! :laugh:

 

 

ETA: fixed for clarification.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

 

 

Some people might hate me for this, but Rebecca did CLE 200 and TT3 AND 4 and we got basically nothing but computer time out of CLE. It was so far behind based on CLE.

 

 

Now, I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what to do with CLE 700 and 800! Y'all have 2 more years to decide for me! :laugh:

 

I am confused. Are you saying TT is behind CLE? It is not clear from your post.

[HappyGrace]

My dd went through CLE 605 and looking at the TOC for TT, level 7 AND the first almost half of Pre-Alg would have been review for her. And she is not a strong math student. I do think CLE is ahead, especially of TT.

 

That being said, CLE for 6 yrs is having us need to seriously remediate conceptual concepts-she knew the formulas but NO clue what the reasoning was behind it. For example, we started Pre-Alg this yr w/ a different program and she said-"oh, I see, when you multiply fractions the number gets smaller!" and also finally understood why that was. She was just doing the algorithm and didn't know what was actually going on in it conceptually.

 

I still use CLE for younger ds and will thru CLE6-BUT for spiral practice/review (crossing out problems) on top of the conceptual math we use as first choice! (MM, Singapore IP and CWP, etc)

[Teresa in MO]

My dd went through CLE 605 and looking at the TOC for TT, level 7 AND the first almost half of Pre-Alg would have been review for her. And she is not a strong math student. I do think CLE is ahead, especially of TT.

 

That being said, CLE for 6 yrs is having us need to seriously remediate conceptual concepts-she knew the formulas but NO clue what the reasoning was behind it. For example, we started Pre-Alg this yr w/ a different program and she said-"oh, I see, when you multiply fractions the number gets smaller!" and also finally understood why that was. She was just doing the algorithm and didn't know what was actually going on in it conceptually.

 

I still use CLE for younger ds and will thru CLE6-BUT for spiral practice/review (crossing out problems) on top of the conceptual math we use as first choice! (MM, Singapore IP and CWP, etc)

 

Could you tell me what Pre-algebra program you are using?

[HappyGrace]

We are using Saxon 8/7, BUT I *teach* it conceptually. I do a lot of prep- I look at the lesson topic and then go online to Crewton Ramone or many other sources to figure out how to make sure she knows the WHY.

 

CLE (or anything, for that matter) actually could be taught conceptually by a teacher who knows their math enough to flesh it out-I didn't, and now I am working hard to be a better teacher, etc.

 

(btw, I chose Saxon because it had a good review of arithmetic first, which dd needed, AND the spiral really helps her)

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

My dd went through CLE 605 and looking at the TOC for TT, level 7 AND the first almost half of Pre-Alg would have been review for her. And she is not a strong math student. I do think CLE is ahead, especially of TT.

 

That being said, CLE for 6 yrs is having us need to seriously remediate conceptual concepts-she knew the formulas but NO clue what the reasoning was behind it. For example, we started Pre-Alg this yr w/ a different program and she said-"oh, I see, when you multiply fractions the number gets smaller!" and also finally understood why that was. She was just doing the algorithm and didn't know what was actually going on in it conceptually.

 

I still use CLE for younger ds and will thru CLE6-BUT for spiral practice/review (crossing out problems) on top of the conceptual math we use as first choice! (MM, Singapore IP and CWP, etc)

 

Any links to multiplying fractions the number gets smaller?

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Or any links for sights that explain things conceptually well such as the when multiplying fractions the number gets smaller or others? We used CLE 4 and CLE bridge workbooks for math on the topics of algebra, geometry, and fractions/percents/ratios and now are in Saxon Algebra 1. It seemed CLE explained fairly well but I am always on the look out for links that explain math well since I get confused sometimes :001_smile:

[HappyGrace]

I love Crewton Ramone-he uses a MUS type teaching. He's a little funky, not in love with the website, but the youtube videos have really helped me http://www.crewtonramoneshouseofmath.com/

 

and these videos on here are excellent too, as well as her topical workbooks http://www.homeschoolmath.net/

[Mommy22alyns]

I am confused. Are you saying TT is behind CLE? It is not clear from your post.

 

 

Oops, I am so sorry! I mis-typed. Yes, TT was way behind CLE. She tested out of about 2/3 of TT3 before even beginning CLE 200. When we got to TT4, we skipped around so much that I just ditched it. She was still in CLE 200 at the time. I sold it off.

[Murrayshire]

So am I gathering correctly that 607, 608, and 609 would basically be a review of the entire 6th? DD has just completed Teaching Textbooks 6, and I was thinking about getting those last three CLE for her before we got our hands on TT 7.

 

 

I'm hijacking here...apologies....but I have a similar question as the one above in bold. My dd4th will be finishing up Saxon 5/4 and we want to continue math through the summer. Could we do the last part of CLE 4 to review before moving on to 5th grade math? I haven't compared the Scope & Sequence yet of Saxon & CLE. Can anyone answer this question?

Thanks!

[dereksurfs]

I'm hijacking here...apologies....but I have a similar question as the one above in bold. My dd4th will be finishing up Saxon 5/4 and we want to continue math through the summer. Could we do the last part of CLE 4 to review before moving on to 5th grade math? I haven't compared the Scope & Sequence yet of Saxon & CLE. Can anyone answer this question?

Thanks!

 

Murrayshire, sure you could do this. But before you do take look at S&S (Page 38) to see what you will actually be covering: http://www.clp.org/d...e_2012-2013.pdf

 

As I mentioned above the assumption that the last few light units go over the earlier ones isn't entirely true. They also 'introduce' new concepts which will be covered in the next year, in this case 5th grade. If you are ok with that then it should be fine. But the best review of 4th grade is actually the first light unit of the next year which in your case would be CLE 501. You could do that one first to look for areas which need stengthening or last as a wrap up, especially of the newer concepts which CLE may have introduced.

[Murrayshire]

Murrayshire, sure you could do this. But before you do take look at S&S (Page 38) to see what you will actually be covering: http://www.clp.org/d...e_2012-2013.pdf

 

As I mentioned above the assumption that the last few light units go over the earlier ones isn't entirely true. They also 'introduce' new concepts which will be be covered in the next year, in this case 5th grade. If you are ok with that then it should be fine. But the best review of 4th grade is actually the first light unit of the next year which in your case would be CLE 501. You could do that one first to look for areas which need stengthening or last as a wrap up, especially of the newer concepts which CLE may have introduced.

 

 

Thank you for that link and your advice.....I'll check out CLE 501 to see how that would work out this summer! We might find out that we like CLE better than Saxon....

[RootAnn]

 

Thank you for that link and your advice.....I'll check out CLE 501 to see how that would work out this summer! We might find out that we like CLE better than Saxon....

 

 

The first light unit of each level is completely different, IMO, than the others. Just a caution not to think 501 is like 502, 503, ... 509, 510.

 

CLE has a placement test, BTW. It could help you determine what level to pick a couple light units out of. Once you are near the end of the Saxon book, give her the 300-level test. If she "passes" that one, move to 400 the next day. The test for 500 shows if the student is ready for 600-level, so it is unlikely you'd need that one. Just in case, though, I linked the higher level tests. :coolgleamA:

 

Use the test to see which concepts she needs more work on & use the previously linked S&S document to see which light units to order. Easy peasy.

[Murrayshire]

 

The first light unit of each level is completely different, IMO, than the others. Just a caution not to think 501 is like 502, 503, ... 509, 510.

 

CLE has a placement test, BTW. It could help you determine what level to pick a couple light units out of. Once you are near the end of the Saxon book, give her the 300-level test. If she "passes" that one, move to 400 the next day. The test for 500 shows if the student is ready for 600-level, so it is unlikely you'd need that one. Just in case, though, I linked the higher level tests. :coolgleamA:

 

Use the test to see which concepts she needs more work on & use the previously linked S&S document to see which light units to order. Easy peasy.

 

Wow! Thank you.....I'm saving this helpful tidbit for when we near the end of Saxon!