If You Did *NOT* Like Saxon Math, I have a question:

[PachiSusan]

I was just wondering what people do NOT like about Saxon. I have been deciding between Saxon and MCP Math and I got a whole list of reasons why people LOVE Saxon and why MCP is not good enough, but I want to hear from the people who tried Saxon and didn't like it or it didn't work. I really do need some specifics because my daughter does have some math issues and I'd hate to exacerbate them by picking the wrong curriculum for her.

 

I'm not doing this to *diss* Saxon. I simply need to hear the drawbacks so that I can make a more informed decision. Right now they are neck and neck and no one has the lead. :)

[edeemarie]

I had always intended on using Saxon in the upper grades, but once my oldest started it I knew within about a week it was the wrong choice for him. He went from loving math to dreading it.

 

I think a lot of that was because he is a mathy kid who picks things up quickly so the constant review and overload of problems was too much for him. He just did not need all of the practice that saxon provides and i had a hard time picking and choosing which problems he should actually do.

 

I have also since discovered that a mastery program works much better for him instead of spiral (again, something I had never considered before).

 

Hope that helps! I don't know anything about MCP math- we now use a combination of MEP and Math Mammoth blue series.

[boscopup]

My son only used Saxon K and 1 (in private school), but I can see that many of the same issues with it are still present in the upper level books. Like the PP, my son is mathy. He does not need a lot of repetition, and he does not need such a slow, incremental approach. He is the type that you explain a concept, let him practice it for the day, and he's got it. Review now and then, but move on to the next concept. Saxon, otoh, introduces you to a concept, has you do maybe just a few problems on the new concept, and then the rest of the lesson is review problems. This can be good for struggling math students, though not all struggling students do well with Saxon. In Saxon, mastery of a concept occurs over several lessons. My son wants to learn the concept completely in ONE lesson. I'm like my son, and just looking at Saxon drives me insane. I would be bored to tears. The older books look a lot better than the K and 1 books (I swear those worksheets looked *exactly* the same from day to day, with ever so slight changes in numbers... the older books are NOT that bad).

 

My other issue is that their word problems are not that thought provoking, but again, I have a mathy child who finds word problems easy. We enjoy working through Singapore's CWP books. Not every student needs really hard word problems like that, so I don't think Saxon is "bad" because of its word problems, per se. It's just a bad fit for my mathy kid.

 

All that said, your DD doesn't sound like my son or the PP's son, so your DD may do well with it. I wish you could do CLE though. It is so great for math phobic kids.

 

Oh, and I know you've been concerned about copying from the textbook... Is your DD writing phobic? My son is, but he has no problem working from a textbook. It really isn't that much more writing than a workbook would require. So unless your DD has a physical disability that prevents her from writing, she should be able to handle it at her age, I think. When he's doing the textbook practice sections in Singapore, he just writes the answer on his paper if he can do it in his head, or if he needs to write something down, he does. But usually there isn't much to write. It's not like they have to copy the text of the word problems or anything. ;) How hard is it to copy 2343-838?

[grantmeawish]

This is my first year hsing. At first we decided to go with saxon math after reading great reviews. My son is in 2nd grade and we started with saxon 3. We used it for 2 months before throwing in the towel. It was very repetitive and slow for my son. I personally liked that about it because I felt this would help him really understand the concepts. It was becoming torture though, so we switched to singapore math. We are loving it. It can be as challanging as we need it. Every kid is different so what works for some it may not for others. Good Luck!

[snowbeltmom]

I started out using Saxon when we began homeschooling 4 years ago. My experience is similar to the other posters who did not find Saxon a good fit: About 2 months into the program, my middle child (who was 9 at the time) complained that he was tired of doing the same types of problems over and over again.

 

I switched him and his younger sister over to Singapore and my oldest over to the Art of Problem Solving. These two programs have been great fits for my kids.

 

I do know of other homeschoolers who have had great success with Saxon, though. Good luck with your decision!

[regentrude]

I only used it in middle school, not elementary, and we disliked if for a variety of reasons:

1. Too dry, no joy. you do not feel that the author is excited about math and manages to transmit this excitement to the student.

2. Spiral method. Knowledge is doled out in bite sized chunks and then topic is switched to something unrelated. We much prefer to study one topic comprehensively and them move to the next related topic.

3. Too much drill and plug&chug. Problems are too similar and do not encourage creative problem solving and thinking, but merely repetition of drilled procedure.

4. Too little conceptual discussion. And sometimes conceptual explanation is not mathematically rigorous even though it pretends to be.

 

It works well for some students - it did not work for mine, who are strong math students. I was never so glad to be able to get rid of a curriculum.

[Dory]

I grew up on Saxon. I always felt like we were jumping around all the time and it annoyed me. I also felt like I just memorized the steps to things but didn't often fully grasp the concepts. It was dry and boring too. I remember dreading math everyday despite the fact that I got good grades.

[nrself]

Lots of the things some don't like could be pluses for others. We use Saxon. It is very thorough. It is spiral so a student has lots of ongoing practice and forces the student to figure out when to do what, or how to work different types of problems. It does break up things into the small parts over multiple lessons. It does introduce concepts, move to something else, then come back for more in depth work on the original concept. And its very cheap if you buy used.

 

The only thing I don't like about Saxon is that it doesn't do a thorough job of explaining the whys of math.

 

Nicole

PS *My ds is in the 7/6 book. I do the math lesson with my child. I know what he understands or not. I don't make him do all the problems; I choose which problems in later lessons he needs to practice on. I let him do lots of problems in his head rather than on paper.

[Melissa B]

I think we are the opposite of most people. I love Saxon math from Saxon K - Saxon 76. We pair it up with Singapore though. Drill and kill works great for us. :D But once we hit Prealgebra, Saxon wasn't working any more. The concepts became too incremental. My girls needed to see the bigger picture in order to understand what was being taught. They could do each little piece, but they weren't able to put it all together and apply what they were learning. Once the basics were covered we've found it more beneficial for our family to move to a mastery type math program.

[daybreaking]

I didn't like how there was a lack of continuity in Saxon's program. One day one topic is taught, the next day something completely different is taught. We're using Rod and Staff now and I love how it is so orderly and concepts are gradually and systematically developed. I once read a review that described Saxon as doing a great job of providing the skeleton, but it lacks the connective tissue to put it all together. Maria Miller, from Math Mammoth, has a review of Saxon that describes this situation: http://homeschoolmat...saxon-math.html

[Spetzi]

We used Saxon 3. We really liked the spiral approach and varieties of skills worked on each day. However, I felt there was just too, too, too much practice. I finally made it work by skipping much of the drill and just stuck with the lessons. I will say that I don't think Saxon has missed anything! They really cover everything you would want....and then some.

 

I felt the Horizons math had some of the better elements of Saxon without nearly as much drill. We coupled that with Life of Fred (just Fractions & Decimals and Percents) for a great foundation in math.

[Hunter]

Saxon K-3 are are very different from 54 through calculus, so some reviews of K-3 are not always relevant to people looking at the later books.

 

Saxon can be time consuming. I don't use it with tutoring students who are not ultra serious about learning math. I use Professor B and How to Tutor with them instead.

 

The biggest problem I see with Saxon in when people place the student too high. Students should be placed low enough in the curriculum that most of the problems are review. If a student is working mostly on accuracy and speed, then the lessons don't take so long. Students are also better placed at their READING level in series, and benefit from being taught how to READ a math book.

 

If a student is struggling, there is no hiding it with Saxon. It's entirely overwhelming to push forward. This is easily fixed for most students by just placing them lower, but some parents are not willing to use a book with a below grade level label on it.

 

Saxon was not designed to skip problems. Problems are set up in a sequence meant for students to gradually discover concepts that are not explicitly taught in the reading. It's impossible to know when skipping a problem will lead to a student struggling to understand how to do a later problem. Some gifted students capable of making large mental jumps are fine skipping problems though.

 

Saxon is more cookbook math, than spending a lot of time on the "why's" that many students are not developmentally ready to understand or are not interested in learning. Saxon does spend quite a bit of time explaining why, but not as much time as some other curricula. Saxon does teach problem solving, but not to the level that some other curricula do, and that is beyond some students. Depending on the student, it can be a PLUS that Saxon is more cookbook than some of the currently more popular curricula.

 

Saxon doesn't work well if people take a lot of breaks. After a break, it's best to go back at least several lessons when starting back up again. For a family that takes a lot of breaks, this doesn't always work well for them.

 

Saxon Math is the only math I was able to use for the upper high school grades. I've suffered some brain damage since I took my youngest into the calculus book, and would be hard pressed to do that again, but at the time it was the easiest series for me to self-teach and drag along a gifted but passive-aggressive and sleep deprived teen.

[PachiSusan]

 

I think a lot of that was because he is a mathy kid who picks things up quickly so the constant review and overload of problems was too much for him. He just did not need all of the practice that saxon provides and i had a hard time picking and choosing which problems he should actually do.

 

 

This particular part may be a plus for us. My daughter NEEDS the constant review. Thank you for this!

[PachiSusan]

He does not need a lot of repetition, and he does not need such a slow, incremental approach. He is the type that you explain a concept, let him practice it for the day, and he's got it.

 

My other issue is that their word problems are not that thought provoking, but again, I have a mathy child who finds word problems easy.

 

Oh, and I know you've been concerned about copying from the textbook... Is your DD writing phobic?

 

 

Yeah, I think Melissa will be bored to tears, but she NEEDS repetition. She's not internalizing it the way she's learning things now. She has very few word problems too so I know we need to work on those.

 

She is not writing phobic - she is inCREDibly messy. I mean, sometimes it's so messy I can't even figure out what number she's writing. She also doesn't line up her numbers well so she does stupid addition mistakes.

[PachiSusan]

This is my first year hsing. At first we decided to go with saxon math after reading great reviews. My son is in 2nd grade and we started with saxon 3. We used it for 2 months before throwing in the towel. It was very repetitive and slow for my son. I personally liked that about it because I felt this would help him really understand the concepts. It was becoming torture though, so we switched to singapore math. We are loving it. It can be as challanging as we need it. Every kid is different so what works for some it may not for others. Good Luck!

 

 

Thank you!!

[PachiSusan]

I started out using Saxon when we began homeschooling 4 years ago. My experience is similar to the other posters who did not find Saxon a good fit: About 2 months into the program, my middle child (who was 9 at the time) complained that he was tired of doing the same types of problems over and over again.

 

I switched him and his younger sister over to Singapore and my oldest over to the Art of Problem Solving. These two programs have been great fits for my kids.

 

I do know of other homeschoolers who have had great success with Saxon, though. Good luck with your decision!

 

 

Hmmm, repetition is good in some ways, but rather deadly with Melissa in others.

[PachiSusan]

I only used it in middle school, not elementary, and we disliked if for a variety of reasons:

1. Too dry, no joy. you do not feel that the author is excited about math and manages to transmit this excitement to the student.

2. Spiral method. Knowledge is doled out in bite sized chunks and then topic is switched to something unrelated. We much prefer to study one topic comprehensively and them move to the next related topic.

3. Too much drill and plug&chug. Problems are too similar and do not encourage creative problem solving and thinking, but merely repetition of drilled procedure.

4. Too little conceptual discussion. And sometimes conceptual explanation is not mathematically rigorous even though it pretends to be.

 

It works well for some students - it did not work for mine, who are strong math students. I was never so glad to be able to get rid of a curriculum.

 

 

The bolded actually bothers me tremendously. If this book can't even transmit that the writer itself is interested...wow.

[PachiSusan]

I grew up on Saxon. I always felt like we were jumping around all the time and it annoyed me. I also felt like I just memorized the steps to things but didn't often fully grasp the concepts. It was dry and boring too. I remember dreading math everyday despite the fact that I got good grades.

 

 

This worries me. Grades mean nothing to me if she is not truly grasping the concepts.

[PachiSusan]

 

 

The only thing I don't like about Saxon is that it doesn't do a thorough job of explaining the whys of math.

 

 

 

 

I know that Melissa is a "why" child. This may be a problem. I used to call her my "Show me state" girl because she never took my word for anything! LOL

[PachiSusan]

I think we are the opposite of most people. I love Saxon math from Saxon K - Saxon 76. We pair it up with Singapore though. Drill and kill works great for us. :D But once we hit Prealgebra, Saxon wasn't working any more. The concepts became too incremental. My girls needed to see the bigger picture in order to understand what was being taught. They could do each little piece, but they weren't able to put it all together and apply what they were learning. Once the basics were covered we've found it more beneficial for our family to move to a mastery type math program.

 

 

This is a very good point, thank you!

[PachiSusan]

I didn't like how there was a lack of continuity in Saxon's program. One day one topic is taught, the next day something completely different is taught. We're using Rod and Staff now and I love how it is so orderly and concepts are gradually and systematically developed. I once read a review that described Saxon as doing a great job of providing the skeleton, but it lacks the connective tissue to put it all together. Maria Miller, from Math Mammoth, has a review of Saxon that describes this situation: http://homeschoolmat...saxon-math.html

 

 

Thank you. I marked it and will go back and read it later on.

[PachiSusan]

We used Saxon 3. We really liked the spiral approach and varieties of skills worked on each day. However, I felt there was just too, too, too much practice. I finally made it work by skipping much of the drill and just stuck with the lessons. I will say that I don't think Saxon has missed anything! They really cover everything you would want....and then some.

 

I felt the Horizons math had some of the better elements of Saxon without nearly as much drill. We coupled that with Life of Fred (just Fractions & Decimals and Percents) for a great foundation in math.

 

 

Yeah, that seems to be a common theme. Drill is good, but this much seems deadly to most kids.

[PachiSusan]

The biggest problem I see with Saxon in when people place the student too high. Students should be placed low enough in the curriculum that most of the problems are review. If a student is working mostly on accuracy and speed, then the lessons don't take so long. Students are also better placed at their READING level in series, and benefit from being taught how to READ a math book.

 

If a student is struggling, there is no hiding it with Saxon. It's entirely overwhelming to push forward. This is easily fixed for most students by just placing them lower, but some parents are not willing to use a book with a below grade level label on it.

 

 

This is a very big piece of the puzzle. Thank you.

[SFM]

I HATED the script. I also did not like the amount and repetition of the problems, although these could have been skipped or looked over. We moved to Singapore and it's a good fit, sometimes I throw in some Horizons (which is spiral) just to test him. I think he would have been fine with it, it just didn't fit my teaching style.

[PachiSusan]

I HATED the script. I also did not like the amount and repetition of the problems, although these could have been skipped or looked over. We moved to Singapore and it's a good fit, sometimes I throw in some Horizons (which is spiral) just to test him. I think he would have been fine with it, it just didn't fit my teaching style.

 

 

What is the script?

[SFM]

 

What is the script?

 

 

 

Oh, sorry, I should have been more clear. I HATED the script in the teacher's manual, it just wasn't for me. I don't even feel strong in teaching mathematics but this just wasn't what I wanted. It felt too...hm....schoolish. What I was trying to move away from. It just didn't click for me. I am sure it's a great program for many, as I know many families who use it. It just wasn't the best fit for us. HTH.

[PachiSusan]

 

 

Oh, sorry, I should have been more clear. I HATED the script in the teacher's manual, it just wasn't for me. I don't even feel strong in teaching mathematics but this just wasn't what I wanted. It felt too...hm....schoolish. What I was trying to move away from. It just didn't click for me. I am sure it's a great program for many, as I know many families who use it. It just wasn't the best fit for us. HTH.

 

 

Meaning they told you what to say kind of script? Yeah, I don't like those at all.

[dereksurfs]

If she really needs the repetition but Saxon doesn't work out CLE is very good as an alternative for spiral. Our girls really enjoy it.

[PachiSusan]

My two choices are MCP and Saxon only.

[SFM]

Yes. They told you exactly what to say.

[mumto2]

Saxon has it's good points but no one here does well with the black and white densely laid out pages. We prefer A Beka which has more critics than Saxon! :) We are a pretty mathy household with kids who are mathy and pretty self directed. Tried most things over the years for enrichment if nothing else. We keep coming back to A beka as our spine. I am placing an order next week when we arrive in US.

 

DS also has a problem with not writing things down which leads to errors.Refuses to copy the problem etc. I am actually contemplating just having him write in the upper level a beka books. They are his since dd used other materials (NEM, LOF mainly). He will still do LOF which he loves and does well at. The main problem for him is accuracy which dh and I suspect needs drill for him --we just ran him through Saxons test booklet for prealgebra(I already owned it) he started off getting 50% or so right because of sloppyness he is finishing with mainly 100% grades because he is writing on them and has slowed down some - I made him redo until right.

 

Good luck on your math search. If you have a chance go to an a beka materials display and look at the math books. You might like them. ;)

[boscopup]

Students are also better placed at their READING level in series, and benefit from being taught how to READ a math book

 

That could backfire if the student reads much better than they do math...

 

Yeah, I think Melissa will be bored to tears, but she NEEDS repetition. She's not internalizing it the way she's learning things now. She has very few word problems too so I know we need to work on those. She is not writing phobic - she is inCREDibly messy. I mean, sometimes it's so messy I can't even figure out what number she's writing. She also doesn't line up her numbers well so she does stupid addition mistakes.

 

A couple things:

 

1) Try using graph paper to help her line up her numbers. Have her place one number in each box.

 

2) Have you spent time showing her exactly where to put things on the paper? When I started teaching my son to do math from the textbook (Singapore has occasional practice pages that are done on separate paper), I had to tell him, "Start next to the red line. You love the red line. Do not write in the middle of the page. Stick close to the red line." It took some repetition and sitting with him, having him erase and do it in the right spot, but then he finally got it. He now writes his math straight down the red line on regular notebook paper. And just a couple weeks ago, I taught him how to use the next page, not the previous page, when working in a notebook. :lol: I have had to explicitly teach these things, because he will put his writing anywhere on the page. Maybe you've tried all that with your DD, but in case you haven't or only tried a couple times... It took me sitting down and working with him to train him to write in the correct place. :)

[Lori D.]

As with any math program, Saxon connects with many, but not with all. Saxon was a bust for both our DSs, each for different reasons.

 

Short version:

1. Too tiny of a "bite of instruction" on a topic per lesson.

2. Too many lessons in between one "bite of instruction" on a topic and the next.

3. Too much review.

4. Abstract in presentation. (Instruction via intangible equations and logarithms vs. concrete manipulatives)

5. Too many problems per lesson.

6. Too many topics covered per lesson

7. Visual layout too busy -- eye didn't know where to focus.

8. No workbook after grade 3.

9. From the earlier editions of the pre-algebra & algebra & higher levels: more about memorizing algorithms, figuring out the wording of the word problem to know which one to use, and then "plug and chug", rather than making connections and developing math thinking.

 

Please note, that while these are reasons Saxon did NOT work for us, many are the VERY reason why Saxon DOES work for other students. It's very important to match up learning style and teaching style for that initial exposure of new math topics.

 

 

Long version:

 

DS #1 is very math-minded, a logical/abstract thinker, and I would have thought Saxon would connect with him for those reasons.

 

However, Saxon did not work well with him because of way Saxon spirals the instruction of new material -- a "tiny bite", then anywhere from 2-5 lessons go by before the next "tiny bite" on the same topic. It drove DS nuts; he needs far more material on a topic per lesson, and then more of a mastery approach of the next lesson building on the previous ones, with another thick slice of instruction on the topic. (reasons #1 and #2 above)

 

In addition, it was too much review per lesson for him -- overkill, which was killing his enjoyment of math. (reason #3 above)

 

Saxon was still "king" of the math curriculum at this time, with not too many other homeschool options. DS #1 ended up using Miquon, Singapore, NEM1, Jacobs Algebra, Jacobs Geometry, Forester's Algebra 2, Abeka Consumer Math. He loved all of them except the last two, which were just "okay" to him. In elementary/middle school, I had him use Saxon 5/4, 6/5, 7/8 and Algebra 1/2 for just a few weeks at the end of each school year as a skim overview/supplement for seeing math from a different POV, and to make sure we hadn't missed any topics. He tolerated it, as I would piece together elements from 5-6 lessons (spread out often over 20 lessons) into a single lesson to quickly review a single topic.

 

 

 

DS #2 is a math-struggler, a visual-spatial learner, with a strength in geometry and 3-D math topics, but a real weakness with abstract topics (algebra). He absolutely needs visual manipulatives to be able to see and understand how/why the math concepts work. I thought the very tiny incremental bites of instruction of Saxon might work for him.

 

However, that ended up actually not helping. The tiny incremental bites were too widely spaced, and he was never able to "connect the dots". (reason #2) The instruction was geared for auditory-sequential (abstract) thinkers, not for visual-spatial thinkers who need to see/touch to understand the concept -- and DS, especially when younger, was extremely VSL, and could not think abstractly. (reason #4)

 

The year DS used Saxon, it was Saxon 3, so there was still a workbook. However, I could almost see his eyes spinning -- he couldn't figure out what to try and do, because there were too many problems (he was overwhelmed), and the page itself was visually overloaded (he couldn't figure out how to flow from one problem to the next -- or even where the next problem was). (reasons #5 and #7)

 

In addition to needed a very simple, clean, uncluttered page in order to focus, VSL students need to focus on just one or two topics per page. (reason #6) Their brains just do NOT do well trying to jump from topic to topic. At least DS #2 needed a strong mastery approach, with just a little review at the end. Saxon overloaded and then short-circuited his brain.

 

Finally, I could see he was NOT going to do well in having to copy/transfer problems from a textbook onto a page. (reason #8) His writing was still all over the place, and even using graph paper to line up problems was not easy for him. He had mild dyslexia, which also made correctly copying the problems difficult.

 

We struggled for 4 years to find what worked for DS#2. Finally stumbled on MUS in grade 5, and stuck with that all the way through Algebra 2, with only trying Jacobs Algebra one year as a not-as-successful-as-we'd-hoped alternative (he ended up re-doing Alg. 1 with MUS). And he also finished with Abeka Consumer Math, and did fine. I will say, even with MUS, which he clicked very well with, both Alg. 1 and 2 were a horrible struggle. I attribute that to DS being so strongly a "right-brain" thinker/learner.

 

 

Hope hearing of our two different journeys will be of help as you think about the specific types of learners your own children are, so you can match them up with what will work best for each of them! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[mama27]

Yeah, I think Melissa will be bored to tears, but she NEEDS repetition. She's not internalizing it the way she's learning things now. She has very few word problems too so I know we need to work on those.

 

She is not writing phobic - she is inCREDibly messy. I mean, sometimes it's so messy I can't even figure out what number she's writing. She also doesn't line up her numbers well so she does stupid addition mistakes.

 

 

Get graph paper or turn the notebook paper sideways.

[Walking-Iris]

Saxon does NOT have a script. Not at the levels you are wanting to use OP. Maybe in the K-3 levels, I don't know. I never used those early levels and don't plan on it. Honestly the biggest critics of Saxon are those who used the early ones. I may be off there, because plenty of people dislike the later ones. But I have noticed that the earlier levels are particularly hated.

 

Math is not my ds's strong subject. But I used Miquon with supplements in his early years and that eventually got him up to speed. This is my 1st year using Saxon 5/4. I really like it. My ds even likes it. He likes it because he can do it on his own!!! I give him the facts practice test and mental math work. We work out the problem solving/logic exercise together. I read/skim/explain the lesson. Since you want to know what people dislike about Saxon, I'll tell you here that I don't like the way it's written, really. It's sort of bland. I usually just skim and explain the lesson my own way. It would torture my ds if I read all that out to him or even made him read it. Yeah that would kill some joy. On the other hand, it's not a big deal since I use Living Math as well. It might be something you could look into. The booklists are free on the Living Math website.

 

I like the textbook style, because it's helpful for my ds to know how to keep his place, read and understand directions, show his work, circle his answer for when I check it etc. I don't worry about the "whys" of math because Miquon covered that extremely well and I supplement Saxon.

 

For the messiness. Saxon has graph type paper printables. I printed them all and had them spiral bound to make a math notebook. I don't think the graph printed very clearly, (could have been my printer) but we have no real need of them either. In your case, I would invest in some graph paper notebooks and have her learn to line up her work and understand in depth place value and why math work needs to be lined up just so.

[dereksurfs]

My two choices are MCP and Saxon only.

 

 

Do you own them both already or something? If so one way to answer some of your questions regarding best fit is to test drive each one with your dd. Getting feedback from the child also helps them get a sense of ownership and participation in the process.

 

Another consideration is that MCP does not seem to reflect the national standards for math. S&S are a bit behind grade level instruction. -- http://cathyduffyrev...th/mcp-math.htm

[PachiSusan]

Do you own them both already or something? If so one way to answer some of your questions regarding best fit is to test drive each one with your dd. Getting feedback from the child also helps them get a sense of ownership and participation in the process.

 

Another consideration is that MCP does not seem to reflect the national standards for math. S&S are a bit behind grade level instruction. -- http://cathyduffyrev...th/mcp-math.htm

 

Derek, I keep hearing that. However, I found a recent review where Cathy Duffy DID say they were well within the standards. SO confusing.

 

I don't have either in hand. They are my choices for next year's curriculum. I do a boxed one.

[Hunter]

If a child's reading level is far behind their math level, then it is impossible to teach them to read the math book they are currently using. They would need to practice their math textbook reading skills with a lower text, which probably couldn't be squeezed into a packed schedule. Reading level is as big of a consideration of where I place students in Saxon as their math skills. ESL students commonly place themselves in a low level math class just to learn English math vocabulary. Obviously, sometimes math and reading math have to sometimes be taught at two different levels. Sometimes though, it's just more efficient in the long run to place a student at their reading level.

 

I used graph paper with my messy child, gave him explicit instructions on how to do his work, and made him redo messy problems. It initially slowed things down, but paid off in the long run.

 

The scripts are in the K-3 series. As I said earlier, the K-3 series is quite different than 54-Calculus and sometimes reviews are not applicable to each other.

[boscopup]

If a child's reading level is far behind their math level, then it is impossible to teach them to read the math book they are currently using.

 

 

My comment referred to the opposite situation though. Reading level being much higher than math level. You wouldn't place a child based on their reading level in that situation. ;)

 

I also think you can place a child higher than their reading level *IF* you are willing to read the text to them to allow them to progress. My K'er can't read his math textbook yet, but he can certainly do the first grade math he's doing now. ;)

 

If you want Saxon to be completely independent, then yes, you would need to make sure their reading level is at least as high as the level of math they're doing. I wouldn't necessarily place them based on reading level alone though. And I don't think elementary students necessarily need to be doing math independently (and in fact, that could be a bad thing for many students that age).

[Lori D.]

My two choices are MCP and Saxon only.

 

 

 

I understand you are limited in choices -- possibly due to what would be funded, or what is allowed by an umbrella school?

 

I'd like to suggest an "out of the box" idea to you: Go with MCP or Saxon as your spine -- BUT, also purchase on your own and use a second math as a supplement. I'm a strong proponent of doing 2 very different math programs during the elementary and middle school years, as it really helps students develop connections and math thinking, seeing the math explained from more than one point of view.

 

It does not have to be time-intensive (you can use the spine 4x/week, and the supplement 1x/week; or do shorter daily spine lessons, and then later in the day 15 minutes of the supplement)

 

And it doesn't have to be expensive:

Art of Problem Solving's Beast Academy 3A(guide and practice books = $27)

Math Mammoth (one year of workbooks, answers, tests = $46)

Singapore 3A(textbook and workbook for one semester = $22; or for 3A and 3B textbook and workbook = $44 for the whole year -- less than $5 per month for the 9 months of school)

MEP (Math Enhancement Programme) is FREE downloadable workpages (may not be as different in approach from Saxon or MCP as AoPS, MM or Singapore...)

 

BEST of luck, whatever you decide! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[Hunter]

 

My comment referred to the opposite situation though. Reading level being much higher than math level. You wouldn't place a child based on their reading level in that situation. ;)

 

I also think you can place a child higher than their reading level *IF* you are willing to read the text to them to allow them to progress. My K'er can't read his math textbook yet, but he can certainly do the first grade math he's doing now. ;)

 

If you want Saxon to be completely independent, then yes, you would need to make sure their reading level is at least as high as the level of math they're doing. I wouldn't necessarily place them based on reading level alone though. And I don't think elementary students necessarily need to be doing math independently (and in fact, that could be a bad thing for many students that age).

 

Ohhhh! I get it now!

 

Yeh, when the reading level is high, of course I don't recommend placing them at their reading level. :D

 

I really hate it when a student's reading level is far behind their math level. I used to believe that it was critical to push a student to do the highest level of math possible. I don't know why. :confused: I learned over time that it wasn't necessary to push as hard as possible through every subject.

 

I'm a lot quicker now to place students lower in math and work on independence, neatness, responsibility, and the LANGUAGE of math. It seems in the long run it all ends out in the same place, or a better place. My ex-husband was a mathematical genius, but he couldn't TALK about math with coworkers and it was a real problem for him. I made sure both my boys, especially the mathematically precocious one, could READ and WRITE and TALK about math, and used standard symbols.

[PachiSusan]

 

 

I used graph paper with my messy child, gave him explicit instructions on how to do his work, and made him redo messy problems. It initially slowed things down, but paid off in the long run.

 

 

This is our life lately. I do both of these things and nothing changes YET.

[PachiSusan]

 

If you want Saxon to be completely independent, then yes, you would need to make sure their reading level is at least as high as the level of math they're doing. I wouldn't necessarily place them based on reading level alone though. And I don't think elementary students necessarily need to be doing math independently (and in fact, that could be a bad thing for many students that age).

 

Yeah, I'm not at that point where I even *want* her to do math on her own yet. I'm not as concerned about this part right now.

[PachiSusan]

My answers bolded:

 

I understand you are limited in choices -- possibly due to what would be funded, or what is allowed by an umbrella school?

 

Yes. I am doing Seton Home Study School and they offer the two choices. I'm perfectly happy with them but since we've been doing Seton Press' Math, I have no idea which one will continue on the way she's used to and which one might blow her mind. LOL

 

I'd like to suggest an "out of the box" idea to you: Go with MCP or Saxon as your spine -- BUT, also purchase on your own and use a second math as a supplement. I'm a strong proponent of doing 2 very different math programs during the elementary and middle school years, as it really helps students develop connections and math thinking, seeing the math explained from more than one point of view.

 

That is a really great idea and I might just do that.

 

It does not have to be time-intensive (you can use the spine 4x/week, and the supplement 1x/week; or do shorter daily spine lessons, and then later in the day 15 minutes of the supplement)

 

 

[hsmom10]

This is our first year using Saxon and I am finding it to be a pretty good fit. My daughters are in 3rd and 5th grades, and we switched to Saxon from Horizons. While I thought Horizons was pretty solid in the beginning, I was surprised how much they did not retain in the switch to Saxon. So we have had to back track a little bit to get them both caught up.

 

We are using Intermediate 3 and 65, neither of which are scripted. My older uses the DIVE CD, which is a computer based CD that teaches the new topic for each lesson. I feel this has been a very good fit for her. The CD comes from a Christian perspective, which I know isn't for everyone.

 

I do not find the drilling to be too much at all, especially compared to Horizons. My 3rd grader when doing Horizons 2 was sometimes doing 80+ problems a day. She has not complained ONE time about the amount of work in Saxon. She has a timed drill, then there are a couple mental math problems (mostly skip counting at this point), and about 6 review problems. Then we do the new concept together, which sometimes has a few "Lesson practice" problems that go with the new concept, and sometimes not. Then there are 20 problems that she does independently that are the spiral/review stuff. The older daughter has a few more problems than that, and her timed drills are longer- but really no complaints from her, either. I heard whining every single day about the amount of work in Horizons. We do not skip any problems in Saxon.

 

I know you asked for downsides, and I struggle with whether it is conceptually weak as I see so often on these forums, but ultimately I am happy that my kids seem to like it and are doing well with it. They do read Life of Fred as well (we can get them at our library) and they LOVE those. I just wanted to touch on some of the things I have read in this thread.

 

Good luck with whatever you decide!

[PachiSusan]

Thank you for this. I am not opposed to hearing positive thoughts about Saxon Math. I had another thread that went through all the benefits. I'm open to hearing all sides! :)

 

This is our first year using Saxon and I am finding it to be a pretty good fit. My daughters are in 3rd and 5th grades, and we switched to Saxon from Horizons. While I thought Horizons was pretty solid in the beginning, I was surprised how much they did not retain in the switch to Saxon. So we have had to back track a little bit to get them both caught up.

 

We are using Intermediate 3 and 65, neither of which are scripted. My older uses the DIVE CD, which is a computer based CD that teaches the new topic for each lesson. I feel this has been a very good fit for her. The CD comes from a Christian perspective, which I know isn't for everyone.

 

I do not find the drilling to be too much at all, especially compared to Horizons. My 3rd grader when doing Horizons 2 was sometimes doing 80+ problems a day. She has not complained ONE time about the amount of work in Saxon. She has a timed drill, then there are a couple mental math problems (mostly skip counting at this point), and about 6 review problems. Then we do the new concept together, which sometimes has a few "Lesson practice" problems that go with the new concept, and sometimes not. Then there are 20 problems that she does independently that are the spiral/review stuff. The older daughter has a few more problems than that, and her timed drills are longer- but really no complaints from her, either. I heard whining every single day about the amount of work in Horizons. We do not skip any problems in Saxon.

 

I know you asked for downsides, and I struggle with whether it is conceptually weak as I see so often on these forums, but ultimately I am happy that my kids seem to like it and are doing well with it. They do read Life of Fred as well (we can get them at our library) and they LOVE those. I just wanted to touch on some of the things I have read in this thread.

 

Good luck with whatever you decide!

[North Coast School]

I wish I could put a finger on exactly what my daughter HATED about Saxon, but it was just a gerneral DREAD of math when we used Saxon. She literally cried when i brought out the books. As the teacher, there just seemed like so much to manage. Giant text, Giant Workbooks. Lots of class prep. Lot's of teacher input.

 

We switched to Singapore mid-year and things changed immediately. Se enjoyed math again. My son is in Kindy and we are using Singapore for him as well (Early Bird). Wondering why you aren't considering Singapore? It's high quality, inexpensive, and FUN for the kids.

[PachiSusan]

I wish I could put a finger on exactly what my daughter HATED about Saxon, but it was just a gerneral DREAD of math when we used Saxon. She literally cried when i brought out the books. As the teacher, there just seemed like so much to manage. Giant text, Giant Workbooks. Lots of class prep. Lot's of teacher input.

 

We switched to Singapore mid-year and things changed immediately. Se enjoyed math again. My son is in Kindy and we are using Singapore for him as well (Early Bird). Wondering why you aren't considering Singapore? It's high quality, inexpensive, and FUN for the kids.

 

We're not considering it because we are following a boxed curriculum that we very much enjoy, but it's not an option to do Singapore.

 

BTW My daughter was exactly the same way with Worldly Wise. Actually CRIED when I took the book out!!

[PachiSusan]

repeat. ugh

[North Coast School]

Ahhhh...Admitted, we were doing the lower grade programs, and have heard that Saxon 4/5 and up are completely different than the early grades. i have heard that those who start later in the program love it. So your DD might be in a completely different situation! Good Luck!