Scouting Question

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If your child is in Cub Scouts and sells enough popcorn to get a percentage of his sales to use towards scouting expenses (camp, etc), if you scout is a Webelos II and sells in the fall and then crosses over in February, does he get to take with him the funds he earned selling popcorn to use for scouting expenses as a Boy Scout? Or does he forfeit all that money because he has "left the pack"? Furthermore, does it matter whether he crosses over to the troop that has the same chartering organization as the pack he sold the popcorn for?

 

Our pack committee had a long discussion about this and tabled the issue. The fact that they are even discussing it is scaring me because my scout will be a Web II next year, and if his money doesn't go with him when he crosses over (regardless of which troop he joins), I can guarantee you he won't be selling a dime's worth of popcorn in the fall.

 

I know the Webelos book requires you to check out more than one troop as part of the requirements for crossing over, so I would think it should go without saying that you are not automatically expected to join the troop that has the same chartering organization as the pack. So if your money goes with you, it shouldn't matter which troop you join.

 

I need some voices of experience here. Thanks!

[Lily_Grace]

Well, it wouldn't here. We don't sell popcorn, but the money raised in the BS troop stays with the troop, even the scout account money, after a boy moves to a different troop. They are, however, encouraged to use what they can on uniform and gear expenses so that they get what they've earned.

 

Though I have to say that your statement about if "he gits nuttin, we ain't helpin the pack" is a little off-putting. Perhaps scouting isn't for your family. The values it is trying to teach seems at odds with your family's values.

[Tess in the Burbs]

our Cub Scouts didn't do popcorn. Sold pansies instead and no individual accounts. Our costs for activities was minimal if not zero.

 

I don't see how the money can move with them unless they just cash it out. And they earned it....so why not just give the balance to the parent when done?

 

I will say the BS troop we are moving too.....there is a scout off at college with money left....he's joining them skiing this winter. So they didn't cash his out to him...he's using it up on trips with the group even though he's gone....

[Mrs Mungo]

I don't think the money could follow them from a legal/IRS standpoint. When you raise money for a non-profit group, it is supposed to stay with that group. Cubs and Boys are set up differently and are different groups, even if they share a charter organization.

 

Disclaimer: I am not a leader in Cubs or Boys. I volunteer with American Heritage Girls, but I have a pretty good idea of what the law says. We cannot transfer girl money from troop to troop for this reason or even have individual girl accounts or "cash out" money raises by a particular girl. We can offer incentives that "raising X amount of money pays for registration/dues/uniforms/camping/etc, but we cannot hold funds for individual girls because fundraising for a non-profit is not supposed to be all for you.

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...but we did have one fella who bought a few more items that he could use on merit badges and troop outings, such as a backpacking stove and a backpack.

 

No one had suggested anything like that. In our pack, popcorn sales in the fall are the ONLY fundraising opportunity. The boy scouts sell concessions as all of our events. Every year he has sold enough to pay for a significant portion of his summer camp expenses (and it gets more expensive every summer). That is the only time it has ever been mentioned that the boys could use those funds from that account. Since camp isn't until June, if he left in February and his funds did not go with him, he would lose that benefit in his last year of cub scouting. That benefit is a far bigger motivator to us than some silly toy they get for reaching a certain level of sales. I don't think my values are in conflict with scouting values and that we need to reconsider our involvement with scouting just because I don't want to leave $100 sitting on the table. I will ask and see if there are things they will allow us to spend the money on other than camp. He won't be needing a new uniform, but he could certainly buy some personal camping equipment with the money.

[Unicorn.]

You're going to have to talk to your cubmaster/committee about it. With my son, I was asked where I wanted the money to go. He crossed over in November that year, before he even delivered the greenery. (we didn't do popcorn- we sold greenery which was delivered right after Thanksgiving). The Webelos leader was also the scoutmaster of the troop he was joining, so that made a difference. We also didn't put the money toward an individual boy, other than if they sold x amount, they would get so much of a certain trip paid for. Everything else went to the pack/troop as a whole.

 

I know w/ GS they transfer funds between troops, but I've never heard of it happening that way w/ BSA, other than the above situation.

[QuirkyKapers]

For our troop, it stays with the troop. In fact, the sales made by individuals, doesn't go to that individual but is used for the expenses toward everyone in the group. If someone opts out of selling popcorn, they have pay an amount to help out with the costs.

[Lily_Grace]

No one had suggested anything like that. In our pack, popcorn sales in the fall are the ONLY fundraising opportunity. The boy scouts sell concessions as all of our events. Every year he has sold enough to pay for a significant portion of his summer camp expenses (and it gets more expensive every summer). That is the only time it has ever been mentioned that the boys could use those funds from that account. Since camp isn't until June, if he left in February and his funds did not go with him, he would lose that benefit in his last year of cub scouting. That benefit is a far bigger motivator to us than some silly toy they get for reaching a certain level of sales. I don't think my values are in conflict with scouting values and that we need to reconsider our involvement with scouting just because I don't want to leave $100 sitting on the table. I will ask and see if there are things they will allow us to spend the money on other than camp. He won't be needing a new uniform, but he could certainly buy some personal camping equipment with the money.

 

Your son still benefits from popcorn sales even if the scout account money isn't used. Fundraiser profits are divided into pack/troop and scout accounts. The pack/troop side goes to pay for activities, patches, training, ARROWS OF LIGHT, crossovers, etc. Your son is still going to benefit from this. By opting out of helping to do the work but getting the same benefits is, imo, going against scout values. You don't want to leave the portion that he would have in his personal use account so don't want to help the pack. This confliction may become a bigger issue in Boy Scouts, where personal responsibility, leadership, and community involvement are higher priorities.

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Your son still benefits from popcorn sales even if the scout account money isn't used. Fundraiser profits are divided into pack/troop and scout accounts. The pack/troop side goes to pay for activities, patches, training, ARROWS OF LIGHT, crossovers, etc. Your son is still going to benefit from this. By opting out of helping to do the work but getting the same benefits is, imo, going against scout values. You don't want to leave the portion that he would have in his personal use account so don't want to help the pack. This confliction may become a bigger issue in Boy Scouts, where personal responsibility, leadership, and community involvement are higher priorities.

 

They benefit as well when he gets a portion of his sales. He gets 15% and they get the rest (the amount kept by the pack from the council is a little over 30% so he is getting about half). He has to sell a baseline amount in order to get that benefit. They do not pay for uniforms, they do not pay for camp, they do not pay for go-see-its or other activities. Last year my dh was co-den leader, and I was the asst and I attended the committee meetings. This year, I am the den leader and I attend committee meetings. I've been a part of discussions regarding how the dues are spent and how the popcorn money and other funds raised are spent. The Blue & Gold "banquet" in our pack is a potluck with each family bringing a main dish and a side dish (no food whatsoever provided by the pack). He gets his patches and his book, but other than that, everything is paid for by us, not the pack. Stuff for each activity, such as the trailer and truck for the float in the 4th of July parade, is donated for that specific event.

 

So in our pack, the money you raise selling popcorn benefits both the pack and you. Rather than being asked to make a donation if you choose not to sell popcorn, you simply have to pay for your own expenses. We are not part of a pack where everyone sells popcorn on the honor system and then everyone's expenses are covered. Last year all of the boys in his den went to camp but not all of them had help covering that expense because not all of them worked hard to sell popcorn. Each boy was rewarded according to his effort, which I think is very much in line with scout values.

 

As Webelos leader, I've been talking to many troop leaders about their troops because one of the requirements for the boys to cross over is to visit more than one troop. Around here, it seems to be the norm that whatever the fundraising activity is, the boys benefit directly from their level of involvement. The number of hours they spend at the concession stand determines the amount of money they earn toward scouting activities. So don't try to tell me this will be a bigger issue once he is a boy scout - their expenses are more at that level but they still benefit in part for their effort rather than just working solely for the common good. And I see absolutely nothing wrong with having a split system where the scout benefits directly for the effort he makes as well as benefitting the group.

[Lily_Grace]

 

 

So in our pack, the money you raise selling popcorn benefits both the pack and you. Rather than being asked to make a donation if you choose not to sell popcorn, you simply have to pay for your own expenses. We are not part of a pack where everyone sells popcorn on the honor system and then everyone's expenses are covered. Last year all of the boys in his den went to camp but not all of them had help covering that expense because not all of them worked hard to sell popcorn. Each boy was rewarded according to his effort, which I think is very much in line with scout values.

 

As Webelos leader, I've been talking to many troop leaders about their troops because one of the requirements for the boys to cross over is to visit more than one troop. Around here, it seems to be the norm that whatever the fundraising activity is, the boys benefit directly from their level of involvement. The number of hours they spend at the concession stand determines the amount of money they earn toward scouting activities. So don't try to tell me this will be a bigger issue once he is a boy scout - their expenses are more at that level but they still benefit in part for their effort rather than just working solely for the common good. And I see absolutely nothing wrong with having a split system where the scout benefits directly for the effort he makes as well as benefitting the group.

 

 

The bolded is exactly the point I was trying to make. By not selling, you're teaching your son that if he doesn't directly benefit he shouldn't help the pack as a whole, but still expect things from them.

 

In our pack uniforms aren't covered either, but let me tell ya, there's a lot of hidden costs. Those awards given to the boys crossing over? They cost. The patches and neckerchiefs they recieve when they level up? They cost. The Pinewood Derby track, the raingutter, the timers...they cost. The insurance, registration forms, etc. They cost.

 

My son worked his rear end off for our boy scouts annual fundraiser. Every weekend, 4-6 hours in the cold, rain and snow. Last year it paid for his summer camp. This year it looks like we're moving before camp. Do I regret giving up my weekends to be out there with him or encouraging him to go? Heck no. Because the money the troop raised at the troop level will go to upping their camping/activity supplies, ordering merit badge books for their bookshelf at the hut, and pay for things like the building rental fees so they can have their courts of honor. It'll also pay for the award given to the kids when they reach eagle.

 

 

If your son is only going to be in it for what he gets out of it on a personal level then I'm saying scouts may not be the right journey for you. Or perhaps another avenue, like Lone Scout, so that you don't have to deal with pack finances and an obligation to volunteer work hours.

[TechWife]

In our area, the funds raised by the Cub Scouts selling popcorn go into the pack account and are used for pack expenses and cubs don't have accounts. Even if they are chartered by the same organization, the pack and the troop are totally different groups w/separate boards and bank accounts. In your case, unless the bylaws of each group were set up to indicate that if a scout crossed over to the troop with the same sponsor

that their funds would follow them, the pack is probably under no obligation to send the funds with him. That isn't to say they won't, but they may not be obligated to do so. Why not have your son buy his new Boy Scout uniforms with the funds? He will need a full Class A uniform, right down to the socks. If he has money remaining, then go for a sturdy pair of hiking boots, or a tent, or a camp stool, or anything he would use as a Boy Scout.

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Requirement #6 for AoL:

After you have completed all five of the above requirements, and after a talk with your Webelos den leader, arrange to visit, with your parent or guardian, a meeting of a Boy Scout troop you think you might like to join. Have a conference with the Scoutmaster.

 

If you have several troops within reasonable driving distance, by all means, go visit more than one. But, the den cannot require a boy to do so. I hope you find a GREAT troop for your boy. Find a troop with a good mix of advancement and adventure. Look at their calendar: do they do the same thing every year? That gets boring in a hurry! How many high adventure bases do they generally visit: Philmont, Northern Tier, etc.? Do they have New Scout Patrols or mixed patrols? Is there a Venture Patrol or Crew? Is it an Eagle Mill? Do boys Eagle really early or are most deathbed Eagles? Is there a functioning committee? Are the boys and the ADULTS properly uniformed? That will tell you a lot. Do they camp EVERY month? How long does it take most boys to make First Class? If EVERY boy makes it in one year, are they pencil whipping the requirements? If no one does, are they not camping enough? Are they a group of patrols who come together to form a troop or a troop that breaks into patrols? Do they make Council things such as Klondike, Rendezvous, etc.? How often do they do Courts of Honor? If not AT LEAST twice a year, hmmm.... Do they do Boards of Review when the boy is ready or do they drag their feet and only do them several times a year? Are the leaders TRAINED????? Look for that trained patch on the uni.

 

Great questions to ask when looking at troops - Thanks!

 

We do have dozens of troops within a half hour so there are lots of options.

 

This is my oldest so it is my first shot at this and I am still learning the ropes, despite being involved in the pack and attending committee meetings. We are still finishing up the Webelos badge, but looking at the arrow of light, I think I might of gotten the two-troop impression from #4 where you have to "visit at least one Boy Scout troop meeting and one Boy Scout-oriented outdoor activity." I guess that could both be with the same troop, as could #6.

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If your son is only going to be in it for what he gets out of it on a personal level then I'm saying scouts may not be the right journey for you.

He is no more in it just for himself than he is in it just for the pack. Leaving a group because of personal reasons such as a family relocation is completely different from leaving a group because it is part of the scouting path. I am very happy to donate my time and energy to making scouting great for all of the boys in the pack, not just my own.

 

Why not have your son buy his new Boy Scout uniforms with the funds? He will need a full Class A uniform, right down to the socks. If he has money remaining, then go for a sturdy pair of hiking boots, or a tent, or a camp stool, or anything he would use as a Boy Scout.

 

I did not realize they had to wear Class A from head to toe for Boy Scouts. It is just optional in Cub Scouts, but that would be a great way to spend the money. After all, the more he sells, the more the pack benefits even though they are giving him a part of the profits. That would be a great way to benefit both.

[jen3kids]

 

I did not realize they had to wear Class A from head to toe for Boy Scouts. It is just optional in Cub Scouts, but that would be a great way to spend the money. After all, the more he sells, the more the pack benefits even though they are giving him a part of the profits. That would be a great way to benefit both.

 

 

It depends on the Boy Scout troop. Some require full uniform for every meeting, some only for Courts of Honour. It is one of the questions you'll ask when you visit different troops. Our troop only requires Class A shirts and neckerchiefs at the weekly meetings. Some boys wear their Scout pants, others wear jeans, some wear athletic shorts (quite an interesting look, imo!)

[QueenCat]

I did not realize they had to wear Class A from head to toe for Boy Scouts. It is just optional in Cub Scouts, but that would be a great way to spend the money. After all, the more he sells, the more the pack benefits even though they are giving him a part of the profits. That would be a great way to benefit both.

 

 

That varies with the troop. None that we've been in required it. They all required Class A shirts, the appropriate neckerchief, a slide, and the Scout belt. You could wear jeans (no holes except when camping/outdoor activities) with it. If you were wearing a hat, it needed to be a Scout one but could be from places you'd been as a scout too.

[pageta]

If he's going to camp around here, he'll need scout pants or shorts...they all change into full uniform for dinner. Hadn't heard of any that did w/o it. Scouts are encouraged to be thrifty, use e-bay, talk to older boys etc.

 

At the Webelos camp last year, they sent me a picture of the boys wearing their Class A shirts and scarves, etc. with their swimming trunks! I just about swooned!

 

I will definitely ask about the uniforms, too.

[QueenCat]

If he's going to camp around here, he'll need scout pants or shorts...they all change into full uniform for dinner. Hadn't heard of any that did w/o it. Scouts are encouraged to be thrifty, use e-bay, talk to older boys etc.

 

Our boys have been to several different camps. Jeans or khaki type shorts were always fine with their Class A shirts/neckerchiefs/belt for dinner. They've been to camps in Georgia, Tennessee, Florida and Virginia. Dh was always with them, as a leader, so I know there weren't any problems.

[mhaddon]

No money can be transfered. We encourage our boys that have money left to make a purchase to go towards earning a belt loop, uniform, camping gear, etc. so we can reimburse them. Last year we took out all of our money after we bought our computer. Computer is a belt loop so we were able to turn in our reciept and use that money. Not ever pack allows this. We sell a lot of popcorn (We only sold $30,000 this year) and have 30 boys selling. To encourage them to sell and do well we give them 30% commision on what they have earned as long as we stay above the 30,000 amount. This year we just made it after a change of kernals. I think rewarding the boys helps them sell more. But, I do agree to say you won't sell anything at all next year just because the money will not transfer is a put off. That is encouraging the entitlement attitude that if something does not benfit me I can just not do it :( It's like saying part of your taxes go towards a program you dont' support so you are just going to quite your job.

[mhaddon]

Oh and popcorn sales when he is a boy scout will be different. Cub scouts only earn a portion of the sales, while boy scouts keep all of it. I also found out that the boy scouts are not required to turn in military donations, or that is how it was worded to me when we went to turn in donations. I was very put off by that whole situation and we decided as a pack next year to not promote military donation, but just say it is a pack donation because they didn't even care if we turned it in or not!! :(

[mom2scouts]

We have been involved in three different Packs and none of them had individual accounts for Cub Scouts. Honestly, if a Cub Scout sells a lot of popcorn, he probably had lots of adult help. We have many low income boys in our Pack who don't have relatives or neighbors who can afford to buy. Our Pack puts all the money into the Pack account and then uses it for all the current boys. We buy pizza, derby awards for every boy who participates, a fun Blue and Gold entertainment program, awards, cabins for camping, craft supplies, and other things that go directly back to the boys in the Pack.