Talk to me about Waldorf

[sunnylady303]

So after much heartache and tears, I've come to the place where I can see that it's best for my girls and my family to stop homeschooling for a while. Oh, it's hard.

 

We've looked at schools and right now I'm feeling like the best option is the Waldorf school in our area. It's quite a shift from the Memoria Press we've been using but I think its gentleness is really imperative for my slow, delayed reading, ultra-tender and sensitive DD9.

 

Any advice either on Waldorf or on the switch?

[Hunter]

I haven't heard good things in general about Waldorf and students with reading delays, unless the child was just a dreamy artsy child who needed more time to wake up.

 

Waldorf is not behind other methods. It just teaches topics in a different ORDER. And with it's emphasis on the arts and the whole child, many schools struggle to find the time to teach phonics explicitly. Skill INSTRUCTION sometimes get neglected at some schools, but the EXPECTATIONS are still there.

 

It would really depend on the school and the reasons your child is a delayed reader.

 

At 9, most Waldorf schools are doing some pretty intensive work, that is hard to jump into cold turkey.

 

I'd want to see student samples, and maybe sit in on a class, or find some way to get an idea of what student expectations are at 9 years old, and whether 9 year olds are 3rd or 4th graders.

[Karen in CO]

My youngest has recently joined a Waldorf co-op for 2nd and 3rd graders. The class has 7-9 year olds. It is, as far as I can tell, the best of Waldorf. It is nurturing, caring, full of art, music, crafts, handwork, stories and imagination. Before you commit, spend a couple of days in the classroom. View samples of the work. See how your dd fits with the group. I don't see that it is behind; it is just differnt.

[redsquirrel]

And if you think that your child need extra help with reading make sure it is available in the school. Some Waldorf schools don't have the extra lessons, and some do.

[GailV]

Don't the classes stay with the same teacher all through the years? I wonder what it's like to come into a class that's been together. I imagine that if the teacher works well with your dd, it would be great to be together for so many years; but the opposite is also true.

 

I used to use Waldorf materials in our homeschooling. I still follow a blog of a homeschooler who is staying fairly true to Waldorf. It does become more and more rigorous, particularly after the nine year change, at which time the child should be more fully incarnated. (If you have no clue what I'm talking about, read up on it -- it comes up a lot in Waldorf circles.)

 

On the other hand, I spent waaaaaay too much time reading the Waldorf-recovery threads on Mothering.com, which are for people who have left Waldorf schools. I have the impression that, as the years progress, you really should be prepared to accept Anthroposophy as your guiding philosophy.

[momto2Cs]

Don't the classes stay with the same teacher all through the years? I wonder what it's like to come into a class that's been together. I imagine that if the teacher works well with your dd, it would be great to be together for so many years; but the opposite is also true.

 

I used to use Waldorf materials in our homeschooling. I still follow a blog of a homeschooler who is staying fairly true to Waldorf. It does become more and more rigorous, particularly after the nine year change, at which time the child should be more fully incarnated. (If you have no clue what I'm talking about, read up on it -- it comes up a lot in Waldorf circles.)

 

On the other hand, I spent waaaaaay too much time reading the Waldorf-recovery threads on Mothering.com, which are for people who have left Waldorf schools. I have the impression that, as the years progress, you really should be prepared to accept Anthroposophy as your guiding philosophy.

 

Link to bolded?

[Farrar]

A former poster here had a blog post about Waldorf that sums up a lot of the Waldorf naysayers really well. Even if you decide to go with Waldorf, then I would say read the cons first.

 

http://smrtlernins.com/2010/11/16/ask-a-smrt-homeschooler-about-the-waldorf-method/

[SonshineLearner]

I would look at Montessori schools, before Waldorf. I would also look at home tutoring her with Susan Barton's program for reading. Only doing one thing with her might work well for you. :)

[anabelneri]

I just wanted to echo the others to trod carefully with Waldorf... a friend's son was in Waldorf with reading delays, and the school didn't do anything to help him. She ended up tutoring him at home to get him reading (which would be ironic in your case since you're turning to Waldorf because of reading delays). Also, since the same teacher "travels" with a group of kids for years, if the teacher isn't great then that will be true for their whole elementary education. It's a pretty big risk, unless you know that the teacher is good ahead of time.

 

I would second looking at Montessori. Some are more gentle than others; it's worth looking around and seeing what is available.

[PentecostalMom]

OP, I am not familiar with Waldorf enough to help you. However, I can say that you can always try it and if it isn't working, you can take them out again. Also, you could afterschool a few subjects, maybe only reading to begin with? Hugs to you as you make hard choices for your family.

 

 

 

Not to hijack the OP's thread, but if this were available to you, would you let your dc participate occasionally? I don't know enough about Waldorf to decide. Off to research!

 

Monday - Friday 9:00AM - 12:00PM

3-8 years old

$5/ class or $10/ day (2 classes)

 

Classes are Waldorf inspired and follow the Reggio Emilia style of learning and include painting, clay, theatre, music, art science, drawing, gardening, movement and more. The program includes two classes, snack break and outside time. Students can be dropped-off or parents can stay-n-play.

[Roadrunner]

We researched Waldorf extensively when looking for options and I just couldn't get past what I read about Steiner and his cult (I think it is). It works for some of my friends, but I would walk in there with both eyes wide open.

[Spy Car]

It looks kind of groovy and organic at first glance, and they have great art supplies made with natural beeswax, and great organic bread. And they tell fairy tales to the kids and inspire them to be artistic. And it seems cool. But behind it all is a cult.

 

And the deeper one digs the weirder and more regimented it seems.

 

Know that you are getting into, and don't be naive.

 

Bill

[Reya]

My reply got eaten, but yes, it is a cult.

 

The artsy things the children do aren't about self-expression. They are all highly and tightly regimented. There is no individuality or creativity. All the children make the same pretty watercolors, over and over. Their lovely eurythmics are always done the exact same way. Their instruction is extremely narrow and focused and only looks "free" because it is different from what you are used to seeing, and the mystical significance of everything is forcefully drilled. The difference between a Waldorf school and a pseudo-military school is A) the trappings and B) the military school isn't trying to indoctrinate your children in a cult.

[Farrar]

Yeah, like half this thread got eaten. I decried how formulatic the art and writing are. How when you've seen one book about the Trojan War from a fifth grade class, you've seen them all. And I'll add how odd I think it is to force children to believe in fairies.

 

I think the OP has settled on doing the school anyway, but I think it's good to get into these things with your eyes open.

[Karen in CO]

A good portion of this disuccsion has been lost in the recent upgrade. Here is an article discussing Waldorf's cult status.

One of my comments that was lost was that I'd rather send my dd to a functional Waldorf school than a typcial public school. There are good and bad extremes of both which are not what we're discussing. The OP is going to quit homeschooling and IS going to send her kid to school. In that position, I'd choose the Waldorf school over my local elementary. I firmly believe that parents should make informed educational choices, but not everyone has the luxury of a variety of choices.

 

My dd goes to a lovely Waldorf co-op. It is perfect for her while she's in vision therapy because she gets to play, paint, dance, sing, and not feel like she is behind in reading while her eyes are learning to focus together.

I think the proof is in the pudding, as it was. I had an acquaintance with a step-daugher who attended a Waldorf school through grade 8, who had serious math deficiencies coming into 9th grade. She hadn't been exposed to fractions or decimals, much less the pre-algebra that is expected these days, but she did have a beautiful (and apparently ubiquitous) hand-made book. I know that a sample size of one isn't good, but if I were to investigate a school, I'd want to talk to graduates and their parents.

[DandelionMom]

I love homeschooling with Waldorf methods though. It really allows you to use what you love and leave the stuff you don't out.

[corduroy]

I think there is a huge difference between "Waldorf-inspired" (whether it's a preschool, a co-op, or a homeschool) and an actual Waldorf school. My family was good friends with a couple of Steiner families, so I got to see the full anthroposophical lifestyle up close. There are many very unusual beliefs in anthroposophy that are really far out of the mainstream, but I think many people who are Waldorf-curious don't really notice the unusual beliefs until they're in it, because Waldorf looks so wonderful. I am as susceptible to the Waldorf esthetic as anyone! It's just so restful and beautiful, isn't it?

 

And I think that a lot of "Waldorf-inspired" preschools, or co-ops, or homeschool materials, are basically doing that kind of thing. A lot of natural materials, low-media, calm rhythms, a lot of music and storytelling and beeswax, no pressure on the child to read at four. Fantastic. I love it. I am down with all of these things.

 

But a real Waldorf school is very different. There are things happening in that environment that go into areas I am not comfortable with, and I think I am pretty comfortable and open-minded about a really wide array of educational philosophies. For me, I can't get past things like using anthroposophy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthroposophy) as a basis for teaching science, or interpreting conflicts between children. I know the gnome thing is cute (see: the delightful esthetic) but the gnomes, in a Waldorf setting, are not just cute. They are not metaphorical. Waldorf children are taught that gnomes and fairies are literally-true components of their environment. (I don't think this is cute. I think this is weird.)

 

Of course, in a co-op, "inspired", homeschool situation, you can pick and choose what you think is valuable and what, like telling your child that gnomes are real, is not something you want to teach. But in a Waldorf school, because they are regulated by a Steiner oversight group, there isn't as much leeway in terms of what they can teach.

 

I considered Waldorf when looking for preschool options for my son, because I really wanted to avoid any academics for very little kids. But ultimately, I felt like there are way, way, way too many downsides, and I just couldn't keep thinking about it. I don't know that I would necessarily go so far as to say that Steiner is a cult, but I am very understanding of people who do feel that way, which, for a skeptic such as myself, is enough to steer me away.

 

I completely someone whose gentle, sensitive child needs a slower environment thinking about Waldorf, but... I would at least read about some of the philosophies underlying what's happening in the schools and see if I felt like they were close to my values. I think, at least in the US, you are probably unlikely to run into straightforward anti-Semitism or karmic racism in a Waldorf school at this point, although I know this has - somewhat incredibly - not vanished entirely from European Steiner schools. For younger kids, if you are not really very concerned about things like math and science, I would feel that my main concerns would be if my child were the type of kid who felt okay about only being allowed to wear certain types of shirts, or not being allowed to use a black crayon, or only being allowed to draw the same thing everyone else is drawing, or if Eurythmy will strike them as outlandish, or fun. Waldorf often seems "free" to people, but I really feel like formal Steiner environments are actually extremely, intensely rigid, which I think works well for some kids and not at all for others.

[EmilyK]

My younger son has attended a Waldorf school for the last two years and overall it has been a good experience. Although the school is accredited by the Waldorf accreditation body, it appears to vary a bit from some more hard core schools I've heard of. There's no media policy, they use Singapore and Key to math books, etc. personally, I think for something like preK to 2 it is delightful as long as the school doesn't make you convert to the religion. In the beginning I just loved it and wished we had found it earlier.

 

I'm having more problems with it these days. Because it is so decentralized a lot depends on the teacher. There don't seem to be many overall school policies which is a problem with issues like bullying. and I'm feeling more pressure as a parent to join the culture/religion which I really don't want to. That said, the curriculum has been great for my son and the other families are generally lovely.

[Reya]

I think the proof is in the pudding, as it was. I had an acquaintance with a step-daugher who attended a Waldorf school through grade 8, who had serious math deficiencies coming into 9th grade. She hadn't been exposed to fractions or decimals, much less the pre-algebra that is expected these days, but she did have a beautiful (and apparently ubiquitous) hand-made book. I know that a sample size of one isn't good, but if I were to investigate a school, I'd want to talk to graduates and their parents.

 

 

This is typical of Waldorf. Science and mathematics don't fit into anthroposophy.

[GailV]

 

Link to bolded?

 

My answer to this also got eaten. In case later readers are wondering: http://twiningoaks.blogspot.com/

[GailV]

This is typical of Waldorf. Science and mathematics don't fit into anthroposophy.

 

 

They do fit, but in a different way.

 

I used Waldorf ways of introducing math to younger dd. It has potential to be really, really confusing, or really fun. It would depend on the teacher. And they have the same teacher for ALL the grades, so if you have someone who is a dud at math, you're pretty much stuck.

 

And I have about every Waldorf botany book available to the general public, which is what you'd teach in the 5th year main lesson.

 

Some of it has quite a ... unique ... spin. For example, if you read much medical/human anatomy that's based on anthroposophy, you'll discover that a basic premise is that the heart is not a pump. Not that there's a main lesson block on human anatomy (at least not that I recall) -- I'm just throwing that out there as an example of some of the ideas you run into.

[Reya]

They do fit, but in a different way.

 

I used Waldorf ways of introducing math to younger dd. It has potential to be really, really confusing, or really fun. It would depend on the teacher. And they have the same teacher for ALL the grades, so if you have someone who is a dud at math, you're pretty much stuck.

 

And I have about every Waldorf botany book available to the general public, which is what you'd teach in the 5th year main lesson.

 

Some of it has quite a ... unique ... spin. For example, if you read much medical/human anatomy that's based on anthroposophy, you'll discover that a basic premise is that the heart is not a pump. Not that there's a main lesson block on human anatomy (at least not that I recall) -- I'm just throwing that out there as an example of some of the ideas you run into.

 

Okay, well, I SHOULD have said "science and mathematics of the type that is taught at any other school doesn't fit into anthroposophy." :p Because you're right, Waldorf does have something LIKE science, but it's full of very peculiar sorts of ideas that don't have a scientific basis, just like the history is imbued with Steiner mysticism. There are sciency factoids, but the big picture is very distorted.

 

Waldorf math doesn't often pass beyond arithmetic, though. Waldorf schools don't have a place for things like trigonometry.

[GailV]

 

Okay, well, I SHOULD have said "science and mathematics of the type that is taught at any other school doesn't fit into anthroposophy." :p Because you're right, Waldorf does have something LIKE science, but it's full of very peculiar sorts of ideas that don't have a scientific basis, just like the history is imbued with Steiner mysticism. There are sciency factoids, but the big picture is very distorted.

 

Waldorf math doesn't often pass beyond arithmetic, though. Waldorf schools don't have a place for things like trigonometry.

 

 

After I wrote that I remembered that most of the science is based on what Goethe wrote around 1800. Most everyone else went along with Newton rather than Goethe, if I recall correctly, and modern science has followed more of that trajectory. (It's really been years since I thought much about this, so I'm a little fuzzy.) A lot of the ideas are interesting, but I'd rather have my kids grounded "regular science" first, and then explore the more poetic vision of ... whomever.

 

"... the big picture is very distorted." Hah, yeah, you might say that. Science fits into Waldorf as an outer manifestation of the spiritual underpinnings of the universe. Not a bad idea, but you'd better agree with Steiner's concept of the spiritual underpinnings if you want to use the stuff.

 

I never looked at math beyond the 8th year. Overall, I was more enchanted with Montessori math.

[DandelionMom]

This is typical of Waldorf. Science and mathematics don't fit into anthroposophy.

 

 

I guess it depends. It isn't that science and math are not taught and don't fit into anthroposophy, it is just that they are taught differently and in a more ethereal and imaginative way. Not so much facts and figures as much as curiosities and wonder. Like thinking about the meaning behind numbers and equations instead of just doing rote math practice, or studying the beauty and design of a tree instead of only learning the anatomy and processes. My 16 year old is now a full-time university student majoring in artificial intelligence and robotics, and we homeschooled her using Waldorf methods. She did attend a Waldorf school for 3 years when she was little, and I have to agree that if she were to solely have that education and no supplementation from me, it could have been a different story. However, using Waldorf methods and combining them with classical or CM at home can produce great outcomes.

[Deee]

We've been involved in Steiner education for the past 8 years, first as part of a playgroup, then with my son at a Steiner school from preschool (aged 4), through kindergarten and first grade, till we removed my son in second grade, aged 7. We have used Steiner homeschooling materials, mainly from Christopherus, from grade 2-5, and have become more classical in our approach from grade 6 (we're on summer holidays now, and will begin year 7 in February). We are Australian. Steiner education isn't huge here (there are 3 Steiner schools in Sydney, a city of almost 5 million). And what you call Waldorf, we call Steiner, so when I talk about Steiner, I'm usually referring to the movement, not the man.

 

Ok, with that background out of the way, on with the story! We removed our son from school because of his class teacher. The class had a huge gender imbalance (18 boys, 6 girls, young male teacher) and a big focus on sport (unusual for a Steiner school but based entirely on the interests and talents of the teacher). My son is very bright, was an early reader and has non-verbal dyspraxia. It was an unhappy mix. He had become the target of bullying, was really miserable and the class teacher did nothing to curb the problems, blaming most of them on DS. He also ran quite a punitive regime and clearly disliked my son. I want to stress that it was the teacher's lack of ability to deal with the situation and his own feelings that caused us to remove DS, rather than any problem with the philosophy at that stage. But there were warning signs. I felt that the school was pulling DS away from us, his parents, and that the school wanted to be the dominant influence. The class teacher had no idea that my son could read in grade 1 and this wasn't valued - it was something to be worried about (he swore openly when he discovered the level of DS's reading ability, which was about grade 6 level in grade 1), and DS was being singled out for "extra lessons" to deal with his "clumsiness" and lack of ability to "cross the midline". When we questioned the bullying and announced we were about to homeschool, the only solution offered was to drop DS down a grade. As he was the only literate and numerate child in the class, this was completely unacceptable and we removed him within the week. The school dropped us like a hot scone. Incidently, bullying continues to be an issue in that class, to the point of attempted self-harm in one child.

 

Of course, the above is about one school and one teacher. The lack of school hierarchy (many school don't have a principal) makes complaint very difficult. I didn't see great evidence of outrageous anthroposophical teachings in the stuff I looked at, but some of the homeschool materials (which usually come from Steiner schools) are weird. DH and I are scientists. I've had no trouble with science in primary school, although some of the "man and animal" block from grade 4 is kooky (eg Live Education - great drawings, weird science. Christopherus is scientifically sound). Maths can be light on (eg Live Ed) or extremely rigorous (Christopherus, Making Math Meaningful, Path of Discovery). Language arts is usually sound (the US Steiner homeschooling materials are better than Australian mainstream materials- we remain grammar-shy), and art, music and foreign language is fabulous in the schools themselves. It can be hard to stick to or adapt to a lack of media, but once we embraced this, it was a huge plus (we are less concerned now DS is older), and I actually think that its the lack of media, lack of junk food, and lack of violent toys and images that makes Steiner parents stick together - once you rid your house of plastic horrors and T-shirts with armed monsters, you and your kids find them really jarring (my son once ran screaming from a rack of pyjamas at the shops).

 

It isn't unusual for kids in Steiner schools to still not read at 9. Its considered perfectly OK. Reading is taught beautifully and the lessons are rich and highly verbal, so your daughter won't miss out. Ask to attend the school (you too) for a week. Ask to look at the work of kids from higher grades. The school won't tell you about anthroposophy, so you will have to read the high schoolers work to see how it permeates areas like science and history. There may also be a strong Christian emphasis (which is where we have parted company in the last year or so). You will only find this out by looking at samples of work, and looking past the truly spectacular art and presentation.

 

 

I'm not sure why you've decided to stop homeschooling (although once you start, I suspect you never really stop), but it might be worth looking at some of Christopherus materials - they are very rigorous and I think, the best of the Steiner materials on the market. Not quite open-and-go but very easy to work with. They will also send you previous years work (eg language arts) if you need it to catch up. A Little Garden Flower is another option - very gentle. Both the authors of Christopherus and ALGF dealt with delayed reading in their own children.

 

I hope some of the above mad ramble was useful!

Danielle

[sunnylady303]

Thank you all so much.

 

We are stopping homeschooling because we just can't right now. Finances and chronic illnesses and mad disasters of one sort and another (you can find my old thread if you're interested). I am not interested in Waldorf long term - my girls will need to be in school two and a half years and then reassess. That would be the year my oldest would start middle school.

 

All of this has told me several things:

 

1. Waldorf is highly variable by school and also depending largely on the teacher.

 

2. It is gentle and beautiful but quite regimented.

 

As someone said before, what I think I have taken is that Waldorf is likely far better for my children than the neighborhood public school or other private alternatives. For now. We visit on Friday and we (me and my children) will attend their first two days back next week. So I will enter with my eyes open doing the best as can where we are now. Thank you all so much.