TWTM history plan vs. TOG (for logic stage)

[chocoholic]

How can I decide between the two? I've never done either. I'm planning for next school year, when I'll have a 7th grader & a 5th grader.

 

For the past 5 years we've done Classical Conversations, and followed their 24 history sentences per year (and loosley followed SOTW volumes 1-3).

 

I feel like I need to start fresh for next year. No more Classical Conversations after this year. (Love our group, love CC, just ready for a change, plan-wise.)

 

I'm looking forward to an orderly study of history from now on.

 

Should I dive into TWTM's history plan (gulp) OR should I invest in TOG? The way I see it, either way we will be using living books and going in a chronological order (planning on starting with ancients in fall).

 

Is one superiour to the other? If I do TOG, will my kids be missing out on necessary & important skills of outlining, writing summaries, etc?

 

TOG seems to be the easy route, but would it be the best?

 

Thank you in advance for insight for those of you that have BTDT.

[Nakia]

I have no experience with TOG, but we are currently doing Ancients the WTM way. I LOVE IT! We have good spines (Human Odyssey for my 7th grader and SOTW for my 4th grader). I had a lot of help here, from numerous sites online for book suggestions, and from a friend irl who does her own history plans. I was very intimidated to start it, but I'm telling you, it has been the best history year we've had! We used SL for 2 years, and I felt like our school day was monopolized by reading history books. I no longer feel that way. I don't mean to bash SL, and I know it's a wonderful curriculum for many families; it just didn't work for us.

 

Anyway, you'll find lots and lots of threads here that address history the WTM way. I know I posted tons this past spring, lol. It's actually very simple, but it's scary to dive in!

 

You need a good spine (you might want to look at K12's Human Odyssey, it's awesome!), a good mapping resource (we use MapTrek), a timeline, and a library card (if you have a good library system). I ended up buying a lot of historical fiction, reference books, etc because our library system isn't great. My girls write summaries on what they read and do other activities as suggested in WTM.

 

Hope this helps!

 

ETA: I bought the Ancient history task cards from Creek Edge Press to help guide me and serve as a base plan. I love them. They help keep me focused and on a good time frame. Here's a link: http://shop.creekedgepress.com/Ancient-World-Task-Card-Set-AW.htm

[chocoholic]

Wow, I love your enthusiasm! Thank you for the advice. Yes, it is scary and intimidating to "dive in."

[chocoholic]

Here's what I like about TWTM's method: skills of outlining, summarizing, timeline introduced & reinforced...but you have to decide on which books to use (buy or get from library), and make your own schedule.

 

Here's what I like about TOG's method: socratic discussions (cheat sheets for me)...but seems like a lot of work - to decide about which books to use (buy or get from library) & then to schedule it on a weekly basis...or have your kids start to learn to schedule their own week, which is what TOG recommends.

 

Here's what I like about Sonlight's method: you don't have to search for the books (or make decisions), you have them at your fingertips and the schedule is made for you...but could be disjointed, maybe not the best Socratic discussions. And who's to say they will ever learn the outlining skills, etc.

 

Ahhhhhhhh! :banghead:

[2_girls_mommy]

It really hasn't been that tough for me this year, though I was intimidated. I did write dd a schedule for what to do each day: She is to read a 2 pg. spread from her spine (kingfisher history for us..) and outline it and put dates on her timeline on Mon. On Tues. she is to finish whatever wasn't done on Mon, and then do the pages in her Geography Coloring book that correspond and read about the area now in it. She should also be thinking about what topic she wants to research further on Mon and Tues and be discussing it w/me. On Wed. we try to find the topic she has chosen in a library book or a book that we own. Sometimes we use the internet to look something up as well. Then on Thurs. she is to write the summary on the topic and file it in the correct spot in her notebook. I did have to work one on one w/her to teach the outlining at first. And I do have to read her summaries and give encouragement. She loves picking a topic and telling me about it, but she also loves to keep the writing brief :) But for the most part it has been pretty independent, besides us talking about the topic.

 

She does her history reading and research from SOTW 1 A.G. recs that I pick up at the library and from Classical House of Learning Literature's (free) Ancients for the Logic stage program. We loosely follow it for lit. It has the dictation and questions for discussion already for me too (kind of like your TOG) I just had to print it out and buy some of the books that my library doesn't have. Mine is a big reader, so it is good for me to have lots on hand for her.

 

But the jump into logic history has been a really smooth transition. Better than I expected.

[julikins]

I'm totally enjoying this thread, I've been struggling with the same decision!

[coffeegal]

How can I decide between the two? I've never done either. I'm planning for next school year, when I'll have a 7th grader & a 5th grader.

 

For the past 5 years we've done Classical Conversations, and followed their 24 history sentences per year (and loosley followed SOTW volumes 1-3).

 

I feel like I need to start fresh for next year. No more Classical Conversations after this year. (Love our group, love CC, just ready for a change, plan-wise.)

 

I'm looking forward to an orderly study of history from now on.

 

Should I dive into TWTM's history plan (gulp) OR should I invest in TOG? The way I see it, either way we will be using living books and going in a chronological order (planning on starting with ancients in fall).

 

Is one superiour to the other? If I do TOG, will my kids be missing out on necessary & important skills of outlining, writing summaries, etc?

 

TOG seems to be the easy route, but would it be the best?

 

Thank you in advance for insight for those of you that have BTDT.

 

 

It really depends upon you and your personality. My issues with TWTM method are user error. While I can make up wonderful plans, I second guess myself constantly. For me, TOG keeps me focused and on track. The planning required with TOG is also the part of planning I love. Figuring out which books to purchase versus buy, do I want to use an alternative, what do I want the kids to focus on... FUN! We're in our second year with TOG, and I'm still adapting it to the family. Sometimes we outline and summarize science, but other times I have the kids outline and summarize history instead of doing the accountability questions. Plus I have the discussion questions! I also enjoy having the entire family on the same page with our history studies. This week we're studying the Alamo. Ds 15 has been ill, so I allowed him to read his younger brother's book on the Alamo rather than trying to force him through the dialectic book. I enjoy that type of flexibility. I also enjoy having activity ideas to do with the littles. TOG has worked well for us. :)

[Zoo Keeper]

Here's what I like about TWTM's method: skills of outlining, summarizing, timeline introduced & reinforced...but you have to decide on which books to use (buy or get from library), and make your own schedule.

 

Here's what I like about TOG's method: socratic discussions (cheat sheets for me)...but seems like a lot of work - to decide about which books to use (buy or get from library) & then to schedule it on a weekly basis...or have your kids start to learn to schedule their own week, which is what TOG recommends.

 

Here's what I like about Sonlight's method: you don't have to search for the books (or make decisions), you have them at your fingertips and the schedule is made for you...but could be disjointed, maybe not the best Socratic discussions. And who's to say they will ever learn the outlining skills, etc.

 

Ahhhhhhhh! :banghead:

 

 

Who says you have to chose just ONE? ; )

 

I use older editon SL IG's ( I don't like their Language Arts...) for the schedule--it keeps me sane and keeps us moving forward. I don't use the schedule as written, BUT I enjoy knowing what the next step is. I don't buy all the books for each core--money and time have never allowed us to do that. Many of the titles recommended in the younger years of SL, WTM, and TOG are the same.

 

I add in SOTW (and am adding in other WTM recs for logic stage), and use SWB's wonderful lectures on Literary Analysis, and teaching writing. I don't use the discussion questions/writing prompts in SL; I MUCH prefer SWB's methods--the woman's a college professor of literature and wiriting-I trust she knows what she is doing. The guidelines she gives in the lectures (or in WTM, or The Complete Writer) can be used with any books or curriculum; you don't have to do history the WTM way to benefit from them. Her big picture makes sense to ME, so I can teach it better.

 

TOG? I have tried to do those nice meaty sample weeks more than once...just too much. I don't like something that requires so many decisions (what level, what to buy, how to schedule) before you can use it.

 

 

ETA: You may also like SWB's Great Books lecture. She makes the whole thing sound do-able.

[chocoholic]

It really hasn't been that tough for me this year, though I was intimidated. I did write dd a schedule for what to do each day: She is to read a 2 pg. spread from her spine (kingfisher history for us..) and outline it and put dates on her timeline on Mon. On Tues. she is to finish whatever wasn't done on Mon, and then do the pages in her Geography Coloring book that correspond and read about the area now in it. She should also be thinking about what topic she wants to research further on Mon and Tues and be discussing it w/me. On Wed. we try to find the topic she has chosen in a library book or a book that we own. Sometimes we use the internet to look something up as well. Then on Thurs. she is to write the summary on the topic and file it in the correct spot in her notebook. I did have to work one on one w/her to teach the outlining at first. And I do have to read her summaries and give encouragement. She loves picking a topic and telling me about it, but she also loves to keep the writing brief :) But for the most part it has been pretty independent, besides us talking about the topic.

 

She does her history reading and research from SOTW 1 A.G. recs that I pick up at the library and from Classical House of Learning Literature's (free) Ancients for the Logic stage program. We loosely follow it for lit. It has the dictation and questions for discussion already for me too (kind of like your TOG) I just had to print it out and buy some of the books that my library doesn't have. Mine is a big reader, so it is good for me to have lots on hand for her.

 

But the jump into logic history has been a really smooth transition. Better than I expected.

 

 

 

What is A.G.?

[Annabel Lee]

What is A.G.?

 

 

Activity Guide

[bethben]

We use TOG and have now for 3 years. What I like is the flexibility with their online classes. I enrolled ds in a TOG online class for the dialectic discussion. I LOVE it. He is accountable to someone else for his work and he can participate in some great discussions. I also love that I can move my children up or down in the levels without having to buy a new program. For example, my ds 8 is a good reader, so I am having him read some upper grammar selections. There is an appeal with TWTM way of organizing things - it seems like the student can go on a rabbit track of their own interest. I do like that, but I know I wouldn't be able to get to the library on a regular basis and our library is small so we would always have to plan ahead anyway to reserve stuff from other libraries. So because of that, I would have to plan out the year anyway. TOG keeps it simple for me.

 

Beth

[AngelBee]

We do TOG with things from WTM and SL. I also use SOTW for one of our core readings. You can pick and choose pieces that you like and combine them to make your own thing.

[Tess in the Burbs]

Well we are doing TWM but I chose our readers/read alouds from Sl and other sources. So after doing SL for years I wanted that schedule of books and not just me picking here and there from the AG. So we are doing Ancients now, but I formed a reader/read aloud schedule for the year like SL would have. Many of our books are SL choices, but some are not. They do narrations after our SOTW readings and Ds is learning to outline using the Kingfisher book. So it's the best of everything...a schedule, outlining, and we discuss together.

[Zoo Keeper]

Well we are doing TWM but I chose our readers/read alouds from Sl and other sources. So after doing SL for years I wanted that schedule of books and not just me picking here and there from the AG. So we are doing Ancients now, but I formed a reader/read aloud schedule for the year like SL would have. Many of our books are SL choices, but some are not. They do narrations after our SOTW readings and Ds is learning to outline using the Kingfisher book. So it's the best of everything...a schedule, outlining, and we discuss together.

 

Great minds think alike, Tess. ;)

[prairiewindmomma]

We've done it both ways, I prefer the WTM method.

[Ali in OR]

I looked at TOG when we were entering logic stage to see if I would like it better than Biblioplan (which is based on WTM). I remember that there was a pretty big mismatch for my dd--her reading level was at the dialectic level, but she would not have been able to do the output for that level in 5th grade. The upper grammar books were too low for her--we had already been reading higher level stuff with Biblioplan. So I would have had to do a lot of tweaking to make it fit us, and for how expensive TOG is, I did not want to have to do tweaking. We went for another round of Biblioplan.

[chocoholic]

I decided to try history just like TWTM suggests this semester - started today. It went really well. The kids both outlined their Kingfisher pages with no problems at all. My fears are gone. :)

[Zoo Keeper]

:hurray: :hurray: :hurray: :hurray: