Required hours vs actual hours??

[bttrflyvld]

So I'm wondering how each of you handle what your state homeschooling law requires as far as hours required.

 

For example Utah requires 180 days at least 990 hours (5.5 hours) for 2-12 grade and 810 hours for 1st grade (4.5 hours a day). That seems like a lot to me. Especially for 4.5 hours for 1st grade. Thankfully Utah doesn't require records.

 

 

Following the recommendations from the WTM doesn't give you these kinds of hours. Atleast not in the early years. What hours are you required and how do you handle it?

[happypamama]

PA requires 180 days, and I think they also say that's supposed to be an average of four hours a day. Most people just report days, and that's what I do, whether it takes an hour, four hours, or eight hours. I just check of days on a calendar. For high school, or maybe later middle school, I will probably count specific hours more, but right now, it's just not important -- some days they accomplish a ton in a few minutes, and some days it takes hours to accomplish very little.

[redheadmom]

My state requires 4 hours a day and 180 days a yr. I make my schedule based on 4hrs a day but some days are less and some are more. I use arts and crafts, home etc, documentaries, etc to fill in missing time (if I can convince the kids, lol)

[zenjenn]

Alabama requires - nothing. Seriously, nothing. You evade compulsory attendance requirements by getting legal cover under a "church school", but there is no state regulation as to what a church school does or how it educates. As long as some religious institution is approving you homeschooling, you can do what you want. The presumption is you could be found negligent if you fail to sufficiently educate your child, in the same way you can be found negligent if you fail to sufficiently feed your child, but much like feeding your child, the matter is not up to state oversight except in matters of suspected negligence.

 

However, it is a legal requirement that children up to age 17 have adult supervision during public school hours.

[NittanyJen]

Hours of school does not have to mean seated butt planted firmly in desk.

 

Physical education time-- skipping rope, playing on swings, riding bikes

Life skills/mathematics reinforcement-- help cook, help clean and do chores. Learn liquid measures, math, estimating, safety, etc.

Logic, small motor, art-- puzzles, knitting, coloring, imaginative play, play dough, painting, crafts, chalk

Music, physical education, mathematical development-- listening to music, dancing, rhythm instruments

Math, logic, social skills, reading reinforcement-- many games, both free play and board/dice games

Reading, history, science, etc-- free reading time, reading out loud to pets or stuffed animals, bedtime reading, poetry

.

.

.

It all adds up.

 

[NittanyJen]

FYI the above is just what I would do in that situation; first graders learn best through play anyway. Delaware doesn't actually demand any specific time; they recommend we follow district guidelines, but we don't have to.

 

[boscopup]

My kids are learning the entire time they're awake. If my state required hours, I'd have no problem saying we schooled that number of hours. The kids in school aren't doing educational things every second they're there, and the length of time spent doing educational things is longer in a classroom of kids than in a homeschool.

[LisaKinVA]

Agreeing...this doesn't mean time in a seat doing work. If you were with a Virtual Academy, there is a set amount of time for a lesson. If a child finishes the lesson early, they get credit for the entire time.

 

For example, a history lesson is given a total time of 40 minutes. If your child finishes the lesson and masters the content for that lesson in 20 minutes, you give them credit for the 40 minutes (in a school setting, if your child finishes ahead of time, they usually doodle on their paper or stare at the walls).

 

At home, I have a daily schedule with the appropriate amount of time for each subject. The lessons are broken out so that we would complete the text within our school year. We finish the daily lesson, they are done (there are some subjects we work for a specific time period, vs. a lesson).

[Mom22ns]

Missouri requires 1000 hours/year for all homeschooled students. There is no reporting, so it really doesn't mean too much. However, there are two keys that people use here.

 

First, children aren't required to be in school until they are 7 on the first day of the school year. So people don't count school until second grade. That helps avoid the unreasonable hours for very young children.

 

Second, look carefully at what you consider school. If you are reading to your child or they are reading, it counts. Even when my kids were preschoolers we read hours each day. I think I could always have made the requirement on reading alone. Then field trips and experiential learning can add a lot to your hours if you need them. PE, life skills and logic have already been mentioned and they are things that we do with our children every day even if we don't homeschool them but you can count them.

 

The only thing I have been told NOT to do by HSLDA lawyers is count a lesson as a predetermined amount of time, such as LIsa suggested. In MO there used to be some ambiguity in the law that convinced people that they could count each lesson as an hour, no matter how long they actually spent on it. The law has since been clarified, but the practice still exists. The HSLDA lawyer for Missouri goes to every homeschool convention in the state and warns that if your hours are challenged in court, they cannot defend that practice and will not defend you if you use that type of system. They say to count actual hours. It is fine to round to the nearest 15 min mark, but be accurate and only count actual hours spent, not the amount of time the lesson is supposed to take.

[Farrar]

This is part of why it's absurd to have homeschoolers count hours. We all have different ideas of how it should work. And in the end, the state telling you to count doesn't change the practice in individual homeschools, it just adds paperwork. If I had to count hours or days (which I thankfully don't), I would just make it up and I feel no shame in saying so.

[foxbridgeacademy]

This is part of why it's absurd to have homeschoolers count hours. We all have different ideas of how it should work. And in the end, the state telling you to count doesn't change the practice in individual homeschools, it just adds paperwork. If I had to count hours or days (which I thankfully don't), I would just make it up and I feel no shame in saying so.

 

This is what I do. We "school" all day, my children are learning constantly.

[LisaKinVA]

The only thing I have been told NOT to do by HSLDA lawyers is count a lesson as a predetermined amount of time, such as LIsa suggested. In MO there used to be some ambiguity in the law that convinced people that they could count each lesson as an hour, no matter how long they actually spent on it.

 

FWIW, my lesson times do not come out of the air, I have several sources I have used to come up with how long a lesson *should* take, based upon an average child doing the work. Abeka publishes a schedule, Bob Jones, K12, Christian Liberty Press...pretty much any curriculum you purchase has a guideline for how long a lesson should take, and what a typical lesson would include.

 

Also, if someone is going to challenge hours spent on school, it won't be done in isolation. There is some measure of progress that is not being met (standardized tests or portfolio). If my kids are scoring in the 99th percentile year over year, or my portfolio is showing a standard progression of achievement, No one is going to question whether it took my child 30 minutes to complete a math lesson vs. 60 minutes if they mastered the material. However, someone will question my hours if a child (absent a valid reason, such as a lengthy, serious illness, a known LD, etc.) is not making a minimum amount of progress.

 

While with the Virtual Academy, we followed their protocols. My kids were tested at the beginning of the year, in every subject throughout the year subject tests, and via "spot checks" done by the teacher in a live conference and twice at the end of the year. The policy of the school is that if a student masters a lesson, they get credit for the full time spent on the lesson -- regardless if it took them 15 minutes or 45 minutes (for a 45 minute lesson). If it took longer than the expected time, that time was to be recorded. Like us, the VA was being graded on actual progress and mastery of material by its students...not the number of hours spent in the seat. We just had to record them, because the state required it.

[LisaKinVA]

Double Post

[LisaKinVA]

Again :sigh:

[bttrflyvld]

Thank you for all your input. I'm grateful Utah doesn't require records, porfolios, or testing. Not that I'm against testing, I just don't feel it's the best way to understand what a child is learning. Plus I remember all my college tests. I would study as hard as I could for the test, do awsome on it and by a weeks time had forgotten everthing I had memorized. So frustrating. A homeschool life style is all about learning. Just even having my daughter doing light preschool has changed how we as a family live. We've tried to create a learning environment with plenty of opportunities for her to learn in our home. And lots and lots of reading together.

[Coffeemama]

For what it's worth the the time schedules in WTM in the section "The Grammar Stage at a Glance" are pretty close to the numbers your state requires, especially if you add in 30 min a day of P.E.

 

I'm glad that I do not have to submit a broken-down report of how each hour is spent, but I am confident that we go beyond the required amount.

[elegantlion]

Missouri requires 1000 hours/year for all homeschooled students. There is no reporting, so it really doesn't mean too much. However, there are two keys that people use here.

 

First, children aren't required to be in school until they are 7 on the first day of the school year. So people don't count school until second grade. That helps avoid the unreasonable hours for very young children.

 

Second, look carefully at what you consider school. If you are reading to your child or they are reading, it counts. Even when my kids were preschoolers we read hours each day. I think I could always have made the requirement on reading alone. Then field trips and experiential learning can add a lot to your hours if you need them. PE, life skills and logic have already been mentioned and they are things that we do with our children every day even if we don't homeschool them but you can count them.

 

The only thing I have been told NOT to do by HSLDA lawyers is count a lesson as a predetermined amount of time, such as LIsa suggested. In MO there used to be some ambiguity in the law that convinced people that they could count each lesson as an hour, no matter how long they actually spent on it. The law has since been clarified, but the practice still exists. The HSLDA lawyer for Missouri goes to every homeschool convention in the state and warns that if your hours are challenged in court, they cannot defend that practice and will not defend you if you use that type of system. They say to count actual hours. It is fine to round to the nearest 15 min mark, but be accurate and only count actual hours spent, not the amount of time the lesson is supposed to take.

 

 

We are also in MO. In the state law it says the school year runs from July to June. So, when he was younger we counted educational opportunities that happened outside the traditional school year. I was also told to count each lesson as a hour, which once I looked at the actual law realized was incorrect. I round to 15 minute increments.

 

I'll admit in 2nd grade it was a pain, we would count anything educational and I kept a log. MO divides their hours into core and non-core hours. It's a small pain to log the hours, but as long as you don't make the process too complicated it's okay. Now at the high school level, I'd want to count hours anyway and while I keep track of summer activities, the hours themselves aren't really needed.

[chepyl]

Oklahoma changed the attendance law in recent years from 180 days to 1080 hours. They did this so that they don't have to make up snow days. They added 15 minutes to each school day. One of my dance students now has a year round test prep class for the end of year exams! We don't have to report anything, so I just track days instead of hours. If I needed to, I know that we spend an average of 2 hours a day on school work, 1 hour a day (at least) on PE and music, plus reading and life skills (helping to cook, shop, and make grocery lists). He spends an hour a week in at class and I would count all the hours from summer theatre camp.

 

It is not just seat work, count all of your learning activities. PS hours include PE, music, recess, lunch, some free time in class, reading time in young grades, and art. That is at least half their day.

[kitten18]

This is part of why it's absurd to have homeschoolers count hours. We all have different ideas of how it should work. And in the end, the state telling you to count doesn't change the practice in individual homeschools, it just adds paperwork. If I had to count hours or days (which I thankfully don't), I would just make it up and I feel no shame in saying so.

 

I completely agree. I have no patience for that kind of nonsense.

[Farrar]

 

Also, if someone is going to challenge hours spent on school, it won't be done in isolation. There is some measure of progress that is not being met (standardized tests or portfolio).

 

 

Yes, I think that's the thing to remember. If anyone were ever challenged over their hours but had kept up good portfolios, example work, test scores, book lists, etc. then the challenge would be unlikely to go anywhere. That's part of why I don't understand why people get so fussed about it. Keep decent records of the important stuff and let that speak for you instead of "attendance" or some standard that simply can't be reasonably applied to homeschoolers.

[thewaka]

Oklahoma changed the attendance law in recent years from 180 days to 1080 hours.

 

To be clear about homeschooling in OK, there are NO homeschooling laws. There is nothing to say we must homeschool 180 days or 1080 hours or any other numbers. There is no required recordkeeping. Oklahoma is *the* best. :D

[chepyl]

 

 

To be clear about homeschooling in OK, there are NO homeschooling laws. There is nothing to say we must homeschool 180 days or 1080 hours or any other numbers. There is no required recordkeeping. Oklahoma is *the* best. :D

 

Right, I did say that there was no reporting in my original post. I do still keep some records. This year, I know what day we started. I have one curriculum that is 36 weeks, 5 lessons a week. When we finish that, I know we will have completed our days. We will however complete everything else sooner :) The chance of being questioned in OK is minimal, but I want to get in the habit now of keeping records so that keeping records for high school is not a big shock :)

[redheadmom]

Double post

[redheadmom]

Thankfully I don't have to count hours but I do have to count attendance days, which are considered 4 hours. My umbrella school has me report attendance for each semester. To me 4 hrs a day has no relevance on learning.

[Donna A.]

Yes, I think that's the thing to remember. If anyone were ever challenged over their hours but had kept up good portfolios, example work, test scores, book lists, etc. then the challenge would be unlikely to go anywhere. That's part of why I don't understand why people get so fussed about it. Keep decent records of the important stuff and let that speak for you instead of "attendance" or some standard that simply can't be reasonably applied to homeschoolers.

 

 

While we here in MO are also required to keep a portfolio, we've been told by HSLDA that our time log *IS* our defense if we should ever end up in court. Now you (MO resident) are free to not keep that time log, or write it up any way you want. But if you don't have one, or it doesn't show the breakdown between Core and Non-Core, home and away, then having a portfolio doesn't matter.

 

I agree, though, that having a portfolio might serve as a good backup to the time log. But it's not a replacement. At least not in MO.

 

I agree with the poster who said that the timekeeping process isn't horrible if you don't make it too complicated. But the thing that bugs me about it is the refusal to DEFINE an hour. That leaves it entirely up to the judge's discretion and interpretation, and I don't like that. Quite frankly, I'd rather have testing! I feel like the time log (without an exact definition of an "hour", i.e., is a full "lesson" adequate for a 7yo if it didn't take a full hour?) is a trap -- too specific to ignore, but too vague at the same time. Especially when it's the same across the board for both 2nd graders and high schoolers. :glare:

 

I was talking to a homeschool mom a few days ago who said that when she substitute taught in a 5th grade public school classroom -- a class that wasn't even doing history, btw (one of our required core subjects) -- she kept track of their actual time spent doing "school work", just out of curiosity. It amounted to only 2.5 hours a day. For a FIFTH grader. :huh: And this is in the same state that requires homeschoolers to do an average of 5.5 hours a day, including history, for ALL ages 7 and up.

 

So yeah, it's not the actual timekeeping that bugs me so much as the reasons (and problems) behind it.

[Mom22ns]

 

(one of our required core subjects)

Just to clarify, we don't have required subjects in MO. We must have 600 hours of core subjects, but we decide which core subjects.

 

An hour is 60 minutes, that really isn't ambiguous at all. If you try to make it something it isn't, then it could be a trap. Just don't go there. An hour is 60 min.

 

There is no testing here, so testing doesn't back anything. A portfolio does, but the hours are the key. They are so easy to track. I spend less than 5 min/day noting our hours. We don't have to report anything, so it really isn't a burden. People who think it sounds horrible usually haven't done it. As Eleganlion mentioned, when your kids get older, it's nice to track time to validate high school credits so having the habit just makes high school that much easier. It's no big - really.

[Donna A.]

Just to clarify, we don't have required subjects in MO. We must have 600 hours of core subjects, but we decide which core subjects.

 

Hhmmm... I, too, live in MO, and I'm not sure where you got this. The core subjects required are reading, math, social studies, language arts, and math. In fact, we're even told that 400 of those 600 core hours must be done AT our regular place of learning.

 

From the summary of the law listed on the HSLDA website:

 

1,000 hours of instruction. At least 600 of these hours must be in the five core subjects below. At least 400 of the 600 must occur at “the regular home school location.†Mo. Ann. Stat. § 167.031.2(2)( b ). These requirements must be met within the school term (12 months or less) the parents establish. Not required for a student who has reached his sixteenth birthday.

 

Required Subjects: Reading, math, social studies, language arts, and science. Mo. Ann. Stat. § 167.031.2(2)( b ). These subject areas (including academic courses related to them) are not individually required, but must collectively constitute at least 600 hours of the child’s instruction. Not required for a student who has reached his sixteenth birthday.

 

 

An hour is 60 minutes, that really isn't ambiguous at all. If you try to make it something it isn't, then it could be a trap. Just don't go there. An hour is 60 min.

 

Yes, it could be a trap because an hour is NOT defined in writing. And that's what irritates me about it so much. I agree that it's no big deal to actually DO the timekeeping if you don't make it too complicated (I said that earlier), but the fact that an hour is not defined, and there's no distinction between what an "hour" looks like for a 2nd grader vs. a 10th grader IS the trap. THAT is what I don't like about it. That and the fact that public schools aren't following the same rules. :glare: The public schools may be getting paid for 7-8 hours a day, but the students aren't doing 7-8 hours a day of actual work.

 

When I asked our HSLDA rep directly during a webinar one time to define an hour, he refused. He didn't say it's 60 minutes. He simply refused to define it.

 

There is no testing here, so testing doesn't back anything. A portfolio does, but the hours are the key.

 

Right, and that's exactly what I said.... that a portfolio can serve as a backup, but that hours are the key. The hours log *IS* your defense in court. From the HSLDA summary:

 

Log defense. “The production by a parent of a daily log showing that a home school has a course of instruction which satisfies the requirements of this section [see 1 and 2 above] shall be a defense to any prosecution under this section and to any charge or action for educational neglect.†Special St. Louis provision: production of a simple letter stating that the pupil is being homeschooled in compliance with the law is a defense if the pupil has reached his 16th birthday and lived in the city of St. Louis the previous year. Mo. Ann. Stat. § 167.031(5)

 

However, we're technically supposed to have another "backup" to show evidence of progress in addition to the portfolio. That CAN be testing, but doesn't HAVE to be. From HSLDA's summary:

 

Home schools must maintain (but do not need to submit) the following records:

 

a. A plan book, diary, or other record indicating subjects taught and activities engaged in (an appropriate daily log could satisfy this requirement);

b. And “a portfolio of samples of child’s academic work†or “other written credible evidence, etc.â€;

c. And “a record of evaluations of the child’s academic progressâ€;

d. Or “other written, credible evidence equivalent to subparagraphs a) b ) and c)†Mo. Ann. Stat. § 167.031.2(2)(a). Parents have the option to follow: a, b, and c, or they can choose to follow only d) which permits more flexibility.