Math Mammoth Revisions

[wapiti]

Actually, quite a few people here have gone from Math Mammoth 5 directly into Pre-Algebra, my son included. But yes, I can see how a lot of people would like having a MM Pre-Algebra course. I just wonder how those with 'mathy' kids, who want an advanced math sequence, will feel about that. :confused:

 

This was my original concern. However, I've been reminding myself that it's not hard to accelerate an advanced student through levels of MM quickly. It takes day-to-day, lesson-by-lesson personal judgment of how much to assign and what to skip/skim, but we were already doing that anyway. My hope is that the new sequence will end up being closer to the order I'd like, even though it takes "longer" to get to "prealgebra" (considering that under the old version, "prealgebra" topics sort of started partway through 6). My thinking is that the line marking when to start prealgebra may be clearer. Or, an advanced student destined for aops, as before, could do MM5 and pull a couple topics from 6 before switching.

 

Under the current/old sequence, my two kids who moved on to aops did a few parts of MM6 (and in my dd's case, she went back to do the ratio chapter after she was about halfway through with aops, before the aops ratio chapter), but I was just picking topics here and there. I'm hoping to do the same with my next ds in line for aops. His teacher does not have the same perspective as his twin brother (who is doing aops at home with the teacher's blessing), though he'll just have to afterschool math to earn minecraft time :tongue_smilie:. I really love being able to find a topic and print the pages whenever the mood strikes; I suppose that Blue would have been easier for that, though it's still pretty simple when one is very familiar with the contents of the levels.

 

Maybe the ultimate answer for advanced students is to use the Blue.

[Chrysalis Academy]

I agree with the pps who don't see this as the end of the world. Having prealgebra topics mixed in with 6th grade math just muddied the water in terms of making a prealgebra choice - if you did MM6, would you be repeating too much in PreAlgebra? But if you skipped it, would your student struggle in prealgebra? This does make it simpler for those of us who have strong math students who aren't hyper-accelerated. And I agree too that one of the best things about MM is its flexibility - it has the incremental, step by step teaching if your student needs that, but it is also really easy to accelerate through if you don't need all the steps and/or the repetition. And it is inexpensive enough that I don't feel bad for skipping chunks!

 

Actually, I pretty much agree with everything Wapiti said - :D. I will still do decimal and fraction division with my 5th grader this year, because I think it makes sense. But I am glad to push off integers and percents till next year. It was introduced in MM5 at the end of the year, then repeated almost in its entirety in MM6. By dropping it from MM5, we can really focus on fractions and decimals this year, and still have lots of time for problem solving and supplements, rather than trying to cram these topics onto the end of the year.

 

I feel like any departure from the old "mile wide inch deep" coverage that has characterized CA state standards in the past is a good thing. Just because you start something early doesn't mean the student gets it, or is ready for it. My dd had fractions in 2nd grade - crammed in at the end of the year, because they were too busy practicing for STAR tests. Ditto in 3rd grade, when they spent the time repeating everything from 2nd because the kids had forgotten it all. She would have been fine just waiting till 4th and really learning it then. I hate that rushed end of the year feeling when teachers are trying to juggle checking off the boxes with prepping for STAR tests. :glare:

[TracyP]

I really appreciate Maria responding to this. I understand where she is coming from, and I am oh, so happy to see that MM7/PreAlgebra is in the works. :hurray:The change to CCS may be a good move in many public schools. Having said that, I still have issues with this change.

 

 

I liked her original S&S. I have assumed that she used her knowledge of the Finnish system (which is one of the best), her own math degree, her years of teaching her own child/ren, and tutoring many others to design a program that she thought was best. Now she is caving (IMO) to “the powers that be†and changing the S&S of her curric to what *they* think is best.

 

 

 

I understand why she feels this is necessary, but I don’t like it. End of the world? No, but the waters look muddier than ever to me. I want to just keep my original, but it sounds like I should switch if I want to use her PreA. (I do!) Has there been anything said about when the Grade 5 and 6 revisions and the Grade 7 creation are happening?

[Chrysalis Academy]

She told me that the MM5 update was *at least* 4 months away and MM6 about 11 months away. So we are looking at March 2013 at the earliest for 5, and maybe October 2013 for 6? So my current student will be using the old MM5, for sure, and at least beginning with the old MM6. We'll see what the new MM6 looks like, and the projected release date for MM7, before we decide what to do for PreA. My original plan had been to do MM6 along with LOF PreA in 6th grade, and then try AoPS PreA in 7th. But we'll see. . .

[TracyP]

Thanks! I suppose we just keep doing what we're doing for now. My plan is/was almost identical. I figured that MM6 would not make AOPS PreA redundant. I don't know what to do now! Wahhhh! :lol:

[Haiku]

Any idea at all when MM7 will be released?

 

Tara

[Mom-ninja.]

I really wish she'd make BOTH options available then.

 

 

 

It would be great if she does this.

 

I'll need to buy MM6 before 11 months so I'll get the old version. Then I'll see what MM7 looks like.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Any idea at all when MM7 will be released?

 

Tara

 

Nope, but given that MM6 (which she is working on) is 11 months away, and she hasn't started on MM7 yet, it looks to be awhile . . . :tongue_smilie:

[Corraleno]

Nope, but given that MM6 (which she is working on) is 11 months away, and she hasn't started on MM7 yet, it looks to be awhile

OTOH, if several chapters of 7A are the topics she moved from 6B, which are already written, then it might not be too long. And she usually releases each "half" as it's ready, rather than waiting for both the A & B modules to be finished.

 

Jackie

[Haiku]

OTOH, if several chapters of 7A are the topics she moved from 6B, which are already written, then it might not be too long.

 

That wouldn't help people who have finished 6B though. I guess I hadn't thought of that. I was excited by the idea of a 7, but not if it's stuff my child did in 6.

 

Tara

[Corraleno]

That wouldn't help people who have finished 6B though. I guess I hadn't thought of that. I was excited by the idea of a 7, but not if it's stuff my child did in 6.

 

Tara

But the new MM6 will be out before MM7, so maybe most people would be using the new 6B by then? My DD will be in 6th next year and I already have the original MM through 6B. Assuming the new MM6 isn't out until October, I may start with the original 6A, and then see whether I want to switch to the new 6A, or just get 6B, or stick with the original 6A and add in a Blue book or two, or what. I think MM in general has less repetition, from year to year, than most math programs, so I probably wouldn't mind repeating some work on integers, ratios, etc.

 

Jackie

[TheApprentice]

:iagree: Glad I have the whole set. I'm really liking the looks of it, and I don't want to have to use the new, dumbed down version when dd is old enough to start it.

 

:iagree:Wow. I bought the entire set 3 years ago when my middle son was in 4th grade. And now I'm using it for my current 4th grade son and will continue to MM6.

[HappyGrace]

Has anyone considered asking Maria to offer BOTH sets on her site? The original for those who want that, and the CCS version for those who want that? It seems it would benefit everyone (including her) to do that.

 

We love MM :001_wub:

[HappyGrace]

And thanks to Jackie (Correleno) who patiently answered so many questions for me about it (specifically how it compares to Singapore) before I bought it!

[Corraleno]

I liked her original S&S. I have assumed that she used her knowledge of the Finnish system (which is one of the best), her own math degree, her years of teaching her own child/ren, and tutoring many others to design a program that she thought was best. Now she is caving (IMO) to “the powers that be” and changing the S&S of her curric to what *they* think is best.

There's no one "best" S&S for teaching math, any more than there's a single best sequence for teaching any other subject. There are lots of different ways to organize the various topics, and highly intelligent, well educated people may choose different sequences for equally valid reasons. For example, MM introduces some topics earlier than Singapore US, and the CA Standards version of Singapore introduces several topics earlier than either of them — does that mean that MM is dumbed down compared to CA Singapore, and that US Singapore is the "dumbest" of all? Of course not. Take any two highly regarded algebra texts, or calculus texts, and compare the S&S — they will vary. That doesn't mean that one is "the best" and the others are "dumbed down."

 

IMHO it makes perfect sense that Maria would align her math program with the national standards of the country where probably 99% of her customers live. The vast majority of homeschoolers will still do prealgebra after MM6, whether it's MM7 or some other program, so they will still be covering all the necessary prealgebra topics. They will not be "losing" anything. The only people this will really affect will be the very small % of homeschoolers with accelerated/mathy kids who planned to go directly to prealgebra after MM5, or directly to algebra after MM6. And even then it's easy to just grab a couple of cheap Blue Series booklets to fill the gap. I think for most homeschoolers, the changes will be positive — especially now that there'll be an MM Prealgebra.

 

Honestly, if the original MM had been released with the new S&S, no one would have batted an eye or dismissed it as "dumbed down." Even with the new S&S, it's still one of the best math programs around: rigorous, conceptual, flexibly organized, inexpensive, reusable, and designed especially for homeschoolers.

 

Jackie

Edited November 13, 2012 by Corraleno

[Corraleno]

Has anyone considered asking Maria to offer BOTH sets on her site? The original for those who want that, and the CCS version for those who want that? It seems it would benefit everyone (including her) to do that.

 

We love MM :001_wub:

I did email Maria and ask her this, although I suspect it would be difficult to advertise, sell, and maintain/update two totally separate Light Blue series, in addition to the Blue series and the Gold & Green worksheets sets. (It's one thing for a company like Singapore Math to do it, but Maria is basically a one woman show.) Maybe she'd consider making the "Original" Light Blue series available to anyone who specifically emails and asks for it?

 

And thanks to Jackie (Correleno) who patiently answered so many questions for me about it (specifically how it compares to Singapore) before I bought it!

You're welcome! I'm glad it's working so well for you. :001_smile:

 

Jackie

[crazyforlatin]

There's always a thread or two every few months about what to do after MM6. Well, that's been resolved now. I thought that people would be doing a happy dance because we've always wanted Maria to write Pre-A.

 

I've noticed that some of us still use MM5 or MM6 even if we went straight to AOPS Pre-A somewhere in MM5. Now, we get an additional MM7 to practice certain concepts. I like the idea of having a math program that gives us Level 1 to Pre-A. I used to combine few different levels for certain concepts, similar to the way Key To series does it with their topic books.

[hollyhock]

There's no one "best" S&S for teaching math, any more than there's a single best sequence for teaching any other subject. There are lots of different ways to organize the various topics, and highly intelligent, well educated people may choose different sequences for equally valid reasons. For example, MM introduces some topics earlier than Singapore US, and the CA Standards version of Singapore introduces several topics earlier than either of them — does that mean that MM is dumbed down compared to CA Singapore, and that US Singapore is the "dumbest" of all? Of course not. Take any two highly regarded algebra texts, or calculus texts, and compare the S&S — they will vary. That doesn't mean that one is "the best" and the others are "dumbed down."

 

IMHO it makes perfect sense that Maria would align her math program with the national standards of the country where probably 99% of her customers live. The vast majority of homeschoolers will still do prealgebra after MM6, whether it's MM7 or some other program, so they will still be covering all the necessary prealgebra topics. They will not be "losing" anything. The only people this will really affect will be the very small % of homeschoolers with accelerated/mathy kids who planned to go directly to prealgebra after MM5, or directly to algebra after MM6. And even then it's easy to just grab a couple of cheap Blue Series booklets to fill the gap. I think for most homeschoolers, the changes will be positive — especially now that there'll be an MM Prealgebra.

 

Honestly, if the original MM had been released with the new S&S, no one would have batted an eye or dismissed it as "dumbed down." Even with the new S&S, it's still one of the best math programs around: rigorous, conceptual, flexibly organized, inexpensive, reusable, and designed especially for homeschoolers.

 

Jackie

 

:iagree::cheers2:

[TracyP]

There's no one "best" S&S for teaching math, any more than there's a single best sequence for teaching any other subject. There are lots of different ways to organize the various topics, and highly intelligent, well educated people may choose different sequences for equally valid reasons. For example, MM introduces some topics earlier than Singapore US, and the CA Standards version of Singapore introduces several topics earlier than either of them — does that mean that MM is dumbed down compared to CA Singapore, and that US Singapore is the "dumbest" of all? Of course not. Take any two highly regarded algebra texts, or calculus texts, and compare the S&S — they will vary. That doesn't mean that one is "the best" and the others are "dumbed down."

 

Yes, that was my point. There are many S&S out there. I can only assume that she originally wrote MM the way she did because *she* thought it was best. I did too. As a teacher, I try my best. That does not mean I am the best teacher, kwim? I wasn't making an argument for best vs dumbed down.

 

She had one of the more rigorous S&S out there, but it looks like she no longer will. MM is one of the only programs that can go toe to toe with Singapore. I don't know if this will hold true anymore. I don't love the term "dumbed down" but I'm not sure what else you call it...

 

... Even with the new S&S, it's still one of the best math programs around: rigorous, conceptual, flexibly organized, inexpensive, reusable, and designed especially for homeschoolers.

 

Jackie

:iagree: I will continue to use and recommend MM. I have loved it more and more with each year. I'm only half way through 5A, maybe I'll be thrilled to see things get stretched out a little further as I go. Who knows? Honestly, I am just disappointed because for now this throws a wrinkle in *my* plans. C'est la vie

[HappyGrace]

Maybe she'd consider making the "Original" Light Blue series available to anyone who specifically emails and asks for it?

 

I really, really hope she would at least do this! No updates, etc., necessary, no extra work for her-just keep the original available on her site as an option. It seems it would only help her to keep it available as another option for people who have a strong preference for the original S+S as she intended it.

 

And yes, I AM over here doing a happy dance about MM7! Woo-hoo! It'll prbly be perfect for 4th grade ds who is advancing through math-the incremental instruction that an MM7 would give would be a perfect choice for younger advanced students that we want to slow down a bit agewise before AoPS, etc.

 

And I don't think it would hurt to do the current S+S and still jump into MM7 after that-it would be easy to see what is repeat, etc., and skip that stuff.

 

I can't fully express how wonderful MM has been for us. Singapore was driving me crazy with all the flipping between books, reading ahead to figure out the HIG, conceptual leaps (even too much for a math-intuitive boy), etc.

[Corraleno]

She had one of the more rigorous S&S out there, but it looks like she no longer will. MM is one of the only programs that can go toe to toe with Singapore. I don't know if this will hold true anymore. I don't love the term "dumbed down" but I'm not sure what else you call it...

But rigor is not necessarily a function of sequence, IMO. You can have a program that introduces topics super "early," but does so in a shallow, algorithmic way — the earlier introduction doesn't make that program more "rigorous" than one that introduces topics a little later, but goes much deeper and really teaches the whys, not just the hows. The scope of MM will actually be larger, with MM7, and the conceptual depth and the challenging problems will still be there.

 

And keep in mind that while some topics are being moved "up" a grade, others are being moved "down" — e.g., divisibility, prime numbers, and factorization moved down from 6th to 4th. Division of fractions and decimals just swapped places between 4th & 5th. None of those things will change the fundamental nature of the program. And, IMO, adding prealgebra is a HUGE plus!

 

Jackie

[angelmama1209]

ok. we are just finishing up mm1b and moving into 2a. i purchased the whole light blue series through the recent hsbc buy. how does this really affect us right now where we are and what changes do i need to be looking at for the future? will i need to purchase a new mm6 and then 7? can we use the 6 we have and still do 7? will any of the other changes really affect us?

[hollyhock]

ok. we are just finishing up mm1b and moving into 2a. i purchased the whole light blue series through the recent hsbc buy. how does this really affect us right now where we are and what changes do i need to be looking at for the future? will i need to purchase a new mm6 and then 7? can we use the 6 we have and still do 7? will any of the other changes really affect us?

 

It's really up to you. If you would rather have the updated versions, email Maria and ask her for them. She sent them to me for the asking, since I also bought the whole light blue series.

[TarynB]

ok. we are just finishing up mm1b and moving into 2a. i purchased the whole light blue series through the recent hsbc buy. how does this really affect us right now where we are and what changes do i need to be looking at for the future? will i need to purchase a new mm6 and then 7? can we use the 6 we have and still do 7? will any of the other changes really affect us?

 

Per Maria Miller's blog post referenced up-thread, if you bought the original versions and also want the updated versions, all you have to do is email her and ask for them. Since you bought the whole light blue series, the updated MM6 would be included in that, i.e., you don't have to buy it again. (Not clear how she will handle MM7 since it will be new.)

 

Here is the link to her website's email/contact form that she provided in her blog post:

http://www.mathmammoth.com/contact.php

Edited November 13, 2012 by Kay_ks

[Chrysalis Academy]

ok. we are just finishing up mm1b and moving into 2a. i purchased the whole light blue series through the recent hsbc buy. how does this really affect us right now where we are and what changes do i need to be looking at for the future? will i need to purchase a new mm6 and then 7? can we use the 6 we have and still do 7? will any of the other changes really affect us?

 

If you bought this recently, you have the updated MM1-2 for sure, and probably MM3 also. You can tell because the covers of the pdfs look different - compare the cover to 6 with the cover to 1, and you'll know how many of the updated ones you have. As pps have said, in order to get the updates for MM4, and then for MM5 & 6 when they come out, you just follow the directions you've already been referred to. No one knows how MM7 will be handled, I would assume we will have to buy it separately when the time comes. But if you have the "old" downloads, you can update them for free.