Struggling with LOF

[JR the hs dad]

My DS10 has hated Saxon, and last year in particular (Saxon 5/4) was a tremendous struggle with him. Primarily, the issue was getting him to slow down his pace to do careful work. I made him correct each error on his exercises and tried to convince him that sloppy work made math take longer because it meant that he would need to spend more time making corrections. This idea never gained traction with him.

 

We switched to LOF Fractions this year to try something different. He loves that the lessons are very short, and some of the early material is review for him, but he needed all 5 chances to cross the first bridge and has scored badly on the first two attempts at the second bridge. It doesn't seem like he's retaining anything, and I'm instead teaching the material as we work through correcting his bridge mistakes.

 

Has anyone had a similar experience? How long should I stick with LOF? Any recommendations on how to make LOF work better?

[momto2Cs]

Have you considered supplementing it with something along the lines of Math Mammoth (particularly the topical [blue] series) or the Key to... series? This might help since he'd be looking at the same ideas from more than one perspective.

[boscopup]

Have you considered supplementing it with something along the lines of Math Mammoth (particularly the topical [blue] series) or the Key to... series? This might help since he'd be looking at the same ideas from more than one perspective.

 

:iagree:

 

A lot of people recommend doing Fred AFTER you've already studied the topics being learned. So go try the fractions sections of MM and see if that helps. It will give him more practice and more explicit instruction, plus it will be all in one place, unlike Saxon (which has a bit of teaching here and a bit of teaching there, and eventually you get the whole concept).

[AimeeM]

I know it's an argument on the board, but many of us have found LOF to be a great supplement - not a spine, so to speak. I would suggest as a previous poster did; use LOF to supplement a different, conceptual spine (like Math Mammoth - a very affordable, conceptual, strong program).

[JR the hs dad]

What is the value of LOF as a supplement if he's learning the material in another program? I'm not asking to be annoying, just trying to think it through.

[AimeeM]

What is the value of LOF as a supplement if he's learning the material in another program? I'm not asking to be annoying, just trying to think it through.

Life of Fred can make math appealing to a child who enjoys math in a storybook format; it gives the student a different way of looking at the same thing. Oft times a subject (math, science, history) uses several sources to reach the final goal - mastery. Much the same as, for a history class, you are assigned to read a chapter in your textbook, create a timeline for visualization, then read a related piece of literature (King Arthur when studying the middle ages, for example); in science you read a portion of your text and then you do a lab/document a lab.

Approaching the same concept using occasionally different material means that your child learns different problem solving skills - different ways to approach the same concept. Especially helpful in math, I feel.

My daughter uses Math Mammoth 6 as her spine; we use DragonBox Algebra and Hands on Equations for supplements. Each of these programs has value and each give her a different way of looking at the same concepts.

 

ETA: I'm coming from a different place on this because LOF was a bust for us. My daughter felt that math is math and doesn't care for an entertaining story to go along with it. She often felt the *math* in the program was lost in the wordiness and storyline - she would get caught up in the storyline and "lose" the math. There are many people on this site who use LOF very successfully (some even using it as their main spine). Not every program works well for everyone. Good luck!

Edited October 8, 2012 by AimeeM

[Laura Corin]

I know it's an argument on the board, but many of us have found LOF to be a great supplement - not a spine, so to speak. I would suggest as a previous poster did; use LOF to supplement a different, conceptual spine (like Math Mammoth - a very affordable, conceptual, strong program).

 

LOF worked well for us as supplement/review. When we used it as our main maths programme, there wasn't enough explicit instruction for Calvin and we went back to a more traditional programme.

 

Laura

[momto2Cs]

What is the value of LOF as a supplement if he's learning the material in another program? I'm not asking to be annoying, just trying to think it through.

 

I actually use LOF to introduce ideas, then back them up with Math Mammoth worksheets. I think it helps my children really understand concepts if they approach them from more than one viewpoint. Generally, with 4 days of math a week, we do two lessons from each LOF and Math Mammoth.

[kandty]

My DS10 has hated Saxon, and last year in particular (Saxon 5/4) was a tremendous struggle with him. Primarily, the issue was getting him to slow down his pace to do careful work. I made him correct each error on his exercises and tried to convince him that sloppy work made math take longer because it meant that he would need to spend more time making corrections. This idea never gained traction with him.

 

We switched to LOF Fractions this year to try something different. He loves that the lessons are very short, and some of the early material is review for him, but he needed all 5 chances to cross the first bridge and has scored badly on the first two attempts at the second bridge. It doesn't seem like he's retaining anything, and I'm instead teaching the material as we work through correcting his bridge mistakes.

 

Has anyone had a similar experience? How long should I stick with LOF? Any recommendations on how to make LOF work better?

 

Very similiar problem here too! My son was loving LOF and asked to do it every day. It was just suppose to be a weekly supplement. Once he hit the bridges he couldn't complete them. Since it was just a supplement for us, I put it away for the time. We will pull it out to do over the summer instead. Hopefully at that point it will be all review to help keep it stored in his memory. There is no way we could use this program as a spine as there isn't a much review that my ds needs for math retention.

[NittanyJen]

Before taking the bridges--

 

You mentioned that the problem with Saxon was getting him to work carefully and really pay attention to the work.

 

Though Fred is self-teaching, make sure that two things are happening:

 

1. When he reads, he can read the fun story part as fast as he wants, but he needs to slow down when he reads the math. In fact, I have DS keep a separate section of his math notebook just for "notes" that he makes when reading the math sections of Fred-- this a great way of making him slow down when reading the math instead of blasting past it and nodding. I spot check this section of the notebook periodically to make sure he is doing it. In the rare cases when he has trouble, I almost always find a corresponding thin area in his notetaking.

 

2. When he does "Your Turn to Play," make sure he is writing down the problems and answers fully before even glancing at the answers. If your son isn't good about the discipline of doing that, get creative. Photocopy the problems and hand them to him on separate paper to work on before he gets the book back with the answers. Cover the answer portion until he shows you he has worked the problems through.

 

3. Make sure he actually sits down and reads the answers to "Your Turn to Play" completely. A lot of teaching takes place in the answer key; it is not just a check-box list of right and wrong, but a lot more explanation goes on there, including some of the why of things.

 

Fred is absolutely a standalone curriculum here; we tried adding in other stuff such as AoPS as a supplement, but there was nothing there that Fred had not completely covered, and we found additional material to be unnecessary (for this particular learner). But I do make sure he is not just blasting right through it and nodding at the story line, or guessing at problems and reading the answer key and thinking, "Oh yeah, I got that."

 

DS struggled with doing some of that when he first started Fred, until he really started to appreciate how working it methodically made such a huge difference in his comprehension and retention of the material. Now he has gone from Fractions all the way to halfway through Beginning Algebra, and he is doing great with it.

 

It COULD be the case that Fred needs help with your particular son. But for a kid who is not loving putting the work into math, before just loading on additional math, I would make sure he is getting the most out of the math he is doing, or the problems could snowball-- a kid who isn't loving math may balk at simply doing "more" instead of doing it better.

 

Good luck at finding a solution that works for you. Yes, Fred can work beautifully as a standalone curriculum, but it clearly does not work well for everyone that way.

[NittanyJen]

Very similiar problem here too! My son was loving LOF and asked to do it every day. It was just suppose to be a weekly supplement. Once he hit the bridges he couldn't complete them. Since it was just a supplement for us, I put it away for the time. We will pull it out to do over the summer instead. Hopefully at that point it will be all review to help keep it stored in his memory. There is no way we could use this program as a spine as there isn't a much review that my ds needs for math retention.

 

Over the course of time, FYI, Fred is loaded with review :). You won't find a section labeled "Review" of course, but every concept covered is continually reused-- over and over and over-- and built into new problems and used in new ways. Fractions are used again and again throughout the Decimals and percents and prealgebra books. Concepts regarding area and volumes and feet and miles work into problems throughout the books. The author does not discard information he has introduced, but reincorporates it all regularly into problems throughout the book and in subsequent books. Essentially, even when introducing new topics, the entire book is also review, because each topic builds upon those already covered and uses them again.

 

Khan Academy can also be a nice supplement/drill accompaniment to Fred if needed.

[besroma]

Have you considered supplementing it with something along the lines of Math Mammoth (particularly the topical [blue] series) or the Key to... series? This might help since he'd be looking at the same ideas from more than one perspective.

 

:iagree:

[8filltheheart]

The only LOF books I am familiar w/ are Fractions and Decimals. I do not like the content of the instruction at all. I was (and still am) befuddled by the rave reviews of Fred b/c it certainly did not meet my standards for what I look for in math texts.

[radiobrain]

The only LOF books I am familiar w/ are Fractions and Decimals. I do not like the content of the instruction at all. I was (and still am) befuddled by the rave reviews of Fred b/c it certainly did not meet my standards for what I look for in math texts.

 

Well, I can see one making that assessment. Fractions and Decimals/Percents are not quite the same as the later books. They aren't quite as much of a full program, or what I mean to say is that one would need to look at those 2 books and the 2 pre-Alg books as one full year. I think that the issue is that many kids (but not all) do need a bit more practice than those book give, but I think Saxon has too much.

 

It is a matter of what type of approach works for you. I HATE Saxon. I don't like it's scope/sequence, its amount of problems, layout, etc. etc. However, I never once assumed it couldn't work for someone else. I was a Singapore girl and when we picked up Fred, and I did them together.... I found that I was able to skip half of Singapore 6A and all of 6B. Fred TOTALLY covered all that content, and in a way that my kids totally got, enjoyed and retained. Does that mean that Singapore was bad? No.

 

Anyway, Life of Fred, or most any curriculum, is good for those it works for. I know that there are a plethora of excellent curricula out there that I cannot use because of the way I look at it. If I don't buy into it, it won't work or get done, KWIM? My kids and I respond best to very certain types of things. The programs that are more widely used just don't work very well for us. There is plenty of room for curriculum choice in the market. Fred will not work for everyone, but the content is sound, even if you don't like how it is presented and it doesn't fill your "requirements in a math text." I think you might change your mind if you actually looked at one of the upper level texts, but then again, maybe not. I think the way Dr. Schmidt has chosen to present his math is too odd for the way you see things. There's nothing wrong with that... I can't wrap my brain around a gazillion more "normal" programs. They make me want to cry. ;)

 

I think that the issue with this kid/parent combo is the real problem. I think the OP might have done better reducing the number of problems the kid did. I would be curious to see if the kid could do, say, half or a quarter of the problems correctly, w/o sloppy mistakes before switching programs. The kid is doing that for a reason. Personally, a page of similar problems over and over, would make me pretty irritated as a kid. Especially if I can do them. Why do that many? Sorry, it is a pet peeve of mine. I don't even believe they are all there to be done... they are there IF YOU NEED THAT MANY. If I did Saxon I would likely have my kids do 3-5 problems. Then go over them, if they had problems, do a few more...if not move on.

 

Also LoF & Saxon are almost polar opposites of each other, and I would think it would be a bit of a learning curve on the difference.

[kolamum]

Due to excess mistake working I'd be tempted to:

 

1. Assign fewer problems in Saxon & state that if he gets them right he won't need to do more, but if he continues to get them wrong due to silly mistakes you'll assign more. I often have to tell my boys Its now how FAST you do them that counts, but if you KNOW them that counts.

 

2. Switch to Teaching Textbook. It's computer based & will give him 2 tries per problem. If he constantly hears the voice telling him, "That's not right, let's try again!" &/or Sees the score immediately for rushing through I wonder if it would help him slow down, it did for one my speedy gonzaleses.

[JR the hs dad]

I greatly appreciate all the good food for thought I'm getting from your responses. One thing that's clear is that my son's carelessness is showing up in LOF just as it did with Saxon, it just looks a little different. I don't think the problem is with either program. We were hoping the interest factor of LOF would pull him in and help him slow down, but that hasn't happened yet.

 

With Saxon, my last strategy was to sit with him and coach him on each problem so that he couldn't get away with rushing and not showing his work. (I find this harder to do with LOF.) I was willing to skip some problems if he showed me he could work carefully and correctly. That only seemed to increase his displeasure. However, I feel like I'm starting to make some headway in other subjects where the same behavior is showing up, so I obviously need to keep at it and be creative. What's frustrating is that he hates seeing bad scores on his work, yet he steadfastly refuses to change his behavior.

[NittanyJen]

He is 10?

 

Keep at it. Mine went through this around then as well. I did switch him to graph paper for math, which helped, but was not a magic bullet (but did help). Patience, consistency, and time should help a lot... It is partly a personality/age thing, I think. At nearly 12, my son has improved greatly in that department.

 

I think you are correct that there isn't any one curriculum that is a magic bullet or all wrong. Just about any set of books can get the message across if presented well.

[briansmama]

I actually use LOF to introduce ideas, then back them up with Math Mammoth worksheets. I think it helps my children really understand concepts if they approach them from more than one viewpoint. Generally, with 4 days of math a week, we do two lessons from each LOF and Math Mammoth.

 

This is what I'm going to try doing with my ds- 9yrs too. We've been using a Waldorf approach to math and while we love it, it is very time consuming and requires a lot of prep on my part. Since he's enjoying math and grasping concepts well, and has his math facts down, I thought using LoF would be a great way to continue to make math interesting and fun, so I ordered the elementary set yesterday. I also ordered MM grade 3 worksheet set to supplement LoF and offer more practice work.

 

Can you tell me if you are using just the MM worksheets to supplement LoF with your children, or would you recommend I also buy the MM curriculum? Do you read LoF and then find MM worksheets that line up with the skill/concept being addressed? Thanks for any help on this- I'm really excited to use LoF but I also know I want my ds to keep up his math practice work.

[Chrysalis Academy]

This is what I'm going to try doing with my ds- 9yrs too. We've been using a Waldorf approach to math and while we love it, it is very time consuming and requires a lot of prep on my part. Since he's enjoying math and grasping concepts well, and has his math facts down, I thought using LoF would be a great way to continue to make math interesting and fun, so I ordered the elementary set yesterday. I also ordered MM grade 3 worksheet set to supplement LoF and offer more practice work.

 

Can you tell me if you are using just the MM worksheets to supplement LoF with your children, or would you recommend I also buy the MM curriculum? Do you read LoF and then find MM worksheets that line up with the skill/concept being addressed? Thanks for any help on this- I'm really excited to use LoF but I also know I want my ds to keep up his math practice work.

 

Not the above poster, but I do use Math Mammoth and Life of Fred together. Last year my dd came home after 1 quarter of 4th grade when she started "hating math" for the first time - basically due to a sucky curriculum that was being poorly taught by a teacher 1 year away from retirement. She had holes, basically in the conceptual/mental math department, and she had a newly-developed feeling of not liking math I wanted to nip in the bud.

 

MM and LOF were the perfect combo to meet these goals. She adored LOF - we did the whole Elementary series last year, and it made math fun again for her. She's working the Fractions (almost done) now, and will move into Decimals in a few weeks.

 

We use the MM complete (light blue) curriculum. Last year, she did ~2 pp of MM 4 every day, and then we read through ~3 LOF Elementary chapters. This year we do 1 MM 5 lesson each day, and she does 2-3 LOF Fractions chapters per week, mostly independently.

 

It's a *great* combo. Fred makes math interesting, relevant, and connected to real life. MM breaks things down and covers them incrementally, and is very strong at mental math/math concepts/problem solving practice.

[jennyradmer]

My daughter loved life of fred for a season and was rolling, until... She just stopped getting it. We switched to math mammoth and we love it! She recently noticed a LOF book in the car and picked it up for pleasure reading. I will continue to have them available, as they are interesting, but we had to switch to something a little more concrete for mastery. By the way, she enjoys math mammoth as well. One of the best parts of LOF is the few problems, so I do not feel obligated to complete every problem in mm either. If she gets it, we move on.

[Lori D.]

What is the value of LOF as a supplement if he's learning the material in another program? I'm not asking to be annoying, just trying to think it through.

 

 

Using a second math program as a supplement that has a different teaching method is extremely valuable for helping any student see that there is more than one way to problem solve. It helps students develop a "math-mindedness", and it also helps students see more connections between numbers and concepts. Using a supplement in the early years helps students have more confidence when they hit the harder, more abstract concepts of Algebra -- they have more "tools" in their math-thinking toolbox for approaching new concepts, and more quickly find ways the new concepts fit in with what they already know through having had the past experience of different points of view of explanation connecting up different math topics in a variety of ways.

 

We consistently used a "spine" math and a supplement up until Algebra (and I would have continued at that time, but we no longer had time for more than 1 program). It made a huge difference for both DSs -- one who is naturally math-minded, and the other who struggled horribly with math. It's amazing how "fluid" math really is, when you see similar topics approached from 2 very different angles!

 

BEST of luck in your math journey, whatever you decide to go with! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited November 1, 2012 by Lori D.