WWYD, parenting. (CC, Old earth, Personality Disorders!)

[jeninok]

My ex is a Malignant Narcissist, up until recently my DS has been safe from his terrorizing due to his Dad having other victims, limited contact, and DS being a small sweet innocent adorable child.

 

I hope this makes sense, be gentle! I am truly beside myself about this whole situation.

 

DS is now 11, and is such a marvelously gentle soul, deeply intuitive, deeply gentle and empathetic. Babies literally flock to him, and animals adore him. I wonder how this brightness of spirit could possible have come from the utter lack of spirit his father has. I honestly can think of no more divine being than an innocent child, and I know he is mine, but he is truly a special sweet kid.

 

For 10 years I have struggled daily with letting Ex have visitation, I KNOW who this man is. I know not only what he did to me in the thralls of substance abuse, but that he did the exact same things to his second wife, sober and while attending meeting and being active in the AA network.

 

I have been seeing some really upsetting things go on, and I fully admit it has been triggering me to a good level 8, just when I think I have healed and the PTSD type symptoms are gone they come raging back when trying to deal with and help my DS process it.

 

We are not what I would call christian, but we do hold to most of what I consider christian principles, and focus greatly on good deeds, love, acceptance, respect, ethics and holding ourselves to a high standard of behavior. We teach that the lessons of Jesus are wonderful and you absolutely can not go wrong trying to emulate his example, but do not hold the bible to be literal historical or scientific fact. We also believe that non belief, any all other beliefs are valid ways to get where you are going. One mountain, many roads and all that.

 

We have been studying evolution and paleontology, and just a lot of science in general. We balance this with teaching that there is no reason you can't believe in both science and God, or a higher power.

 

That the more you learn about the interconnectedness of life, and the planet, and the universe, the sheer complexity and beauty of it all is awe inspiring. That contrary to what many say, scientific understanding can bring you a more spiritual understanding of the world, and your place in it.

 

 

 

Whew, all that being said here is what has been specifically happening the last couple of months with my ex, and DS.

 

First, Ex behavior is getting more erratic, he is single, therefore has no source Narcissistic supply, and is stuck in his own head space.

He has been trying to change the schedule constantly, and then freaks out if it doesn't work.

 

He called me 4 days before Labor day, wanting DS, since we had him for Memorial and 4th of July. I consented despite my misgivings as I try to be gracious with the situation.

 

He then proceeded to ignore DS, and watch the RNC on re-run all day Saturday. DS asked if he could come back to me Sunday instead of Monday, so he could have time at the lake with me, my folks and grandparents. (plus we swim, hike, collect bugs, play board games, and treat him like a valuable human, not a dumb kid.)

 

The Ex then gave him the full silent treatment until the next morning, and even refused to say I love you back, both at bedtime, and the next morning when he dropped DS off. Refusing to reciprocate an "I love you" to a child, for wanting to be with his mamma in inexcusable IMO!

 

 

We have since had several disagreements that leave me reeling, and anxious and worried for my son every time he visits. I used to feel better knowing that he lived with his parents, but he and his mother seem to be feeding off of each other and getting progressively worse. It is them against the cruel world, and those hateful B**t*** that left and took their babies away. Two weeks ago she told my DS that Obama was bad because he wanted to take the babies out of their mommies tummies :confused::001_huh:, and let the gays get married!

 

He had nightmares about bad men ripping babies out of their mothers, along with murdered kittens and puppies for 3 nights straight.

 

Fast forward to last night, DS shows up unexpectedly, usually never coming home until Monday morning. I was put off, because what if I hadn't been home! Then I find out that over the weekend his dad was talking to girls on the phone the entire time. And is planning to fly out to visit one this coming weekend. (and has no money to help buy fall clothes or school supplies.)

 

DS also told me he hates the way he talks about women, and that when they see a pretty girl, in life or on a movie his dad will exclaim WHOA she is HOT!!!

 

Then DS tells me they are watching 10,000 B.C. and his dad said Dinosaurs were the first animals on the planet. :001_huh:

DS, being the budding scientist and paleo obsessive he is, then ran through the entire history of life on earth, correctly and with passion.

 

After his dad questioned him, he tried to say that just because he knows the process that doesn't mean he doesn't believe that God put it into motion.

 

His dad's response was to tell DS that one day when dies, he will get to heaven and look up into the face of God, and he will know he was horribly wrong and have to apologize to god for his sin.

:001_huh:

 

I get that this is not a typical christian response, and I feel like it screams abusive tactics, belittling, and spitefulness.

 

 

I just don't know what to do at this point, I am not sure if I should pursue more limited contact, or how honest I should be with DS about his dad when these things come up? :confused:

 

Any sort of advice, or gentle criticism is welcome, but please do remember we are talking about NPD, and a history of emotional, verbal and some physical abuse (very limited and none to anyone since he became sober)

[Mrs Mungo]

Has your son been in counseling? Is your visitation agreement through the court? Does your son have a guardian ad litem?

[jeninok]

He was in counseling, but once we left school his anxiety was gone, and he didn't want to continue so we stopped.

 

I do plan to start again, and hopefully can make a pre-appointment to appraise the situation.

 

I have sole custody and the right to make all parenting decisions. Visitation is to be every other weekend, with supervision. Until now supervision with the grandparents, or his now Ex wife was sufficient for my comfort level.

 

 

We have always been pretty flexible with visitation, and I have tried hard to to be polite and not show my feelings in the matter. But things have been escalating, and now that DS is no longer little and adorable he is getting the brunt of it.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Stop being so flexible. I would suggest family counseling that includes yourself and will help you in making good decisions for your son.

[jeninok]

Also, because there was a protective order in place, and Ex was still using drugs and alcohol and in and out of jail, when I filed for divorce they pretty much handed me everything I asked for.

 

 

10 years later, he has been sober, no further arrests, and been active in recovery and church. He is officially diagnosed as Bipolar, but, someone with Bi-polar who is manic, or depressed spews their unbalanced behavior all over the place. They don't hide it behind closed doors and only give it to those closest to them.

 

 

To me a good decision for my son would be to limit contact to only days, or one night at a time, or even frankly less with court ordered supervision. Getting this put in place will likely prove next to impossible, especially as I see the custody and parental rights battle going with his soon to be Ex wife, and their daughter.

 

 

I agree that I need to stop being flexible, and have already determined to put my foot down and **** the consequence. Until the crazy started getting bad, I really felt like it was in DS best interest to keep things calm and peaceful and show that his Dad and I could work together as a team. Things have changed, rapidly, and it stinks!

Edited September 24, 2012 by jeninok

[FaithManor]

He was in counseling, but once we left school his anxiety was gone, and he didn't want to continue so we stopped.

 

I do plan to start again, and hopefully can make a pre-appointment to appraise the situation.

 

I have sole custody and the right to make all parenting decisions. Visitation is to be every other weekend, with supervision. Until now supervision with the grandparents, or his now Ex wife was sufficient for my comfort level.

 

 

We have always been pretty flexible with visitation, and I have tried hard to to be polite and not show my feelings in the matter. But things have been escalating, and now that DS is no longer little and adorable he is getting the brunt of it.

 

 

If you have control of who supervises the visit or where the visit takes place, then I would try to limit it to public places....daylight hrs. only and not a grandma's house. This way he and his mom can't double team and I'd ask for it to be with a social worker, dear friend, trusted pastor, etc. Our church has elders and their wives who have functioned as volunteers for supervised visitation in the past. My dad and mom used to help out a mom who desperately needed some decent, trustworthy people to supervise her ex's visitation. Often times, once they can't have their "own" supervise them, it gets uncomfortable and they drop off. That is what happened in this case. The ex did not like having my parents supervise his interaction with his daughters and so he just stopped arranging visitation. After a year of "abandonment" the court revoked his visitation rights at her request because he was unwilling to comply.

 

But, this only works if you are allowed to name the place and people involved. Otherwise, maybe the guardian ad litem or friend of the court could be of assistance.

 

Faith

[Mrs Mungo]

He was in counseling, but once we left school his anxiety was gone, and he didn't want to continue so we stopped.

 

I do plan to start again, and hopefully can make a pre-appointment to appraise the situation.

 

I would definitely re-start counseling so that someone besides you can reassure your son that his dad's behavior has nothing to do with him.

 

I have sole custody and the right to make all parenting decisions. Visitation is to be every other weekend, with supervision. Until now supervision with the grandparents, or his now Ex wife was sufficient for my comfort level.

 

We have always been pretty flexible with visitation, and I have tried hard to to be polite and not show my feelings in the matter. But things have been escalating, and now that DS is no longer little and adorable he is getting the brunt of it.

 

Well, then, I think you need to re-evaluate the situation. You have the control. But, keep in mind, once you start exercising that control? The situation is likely to escalate. These situations are so hard. I hope you can find a solution that is better for your ds. :grouphug:

[Live2Ride]

Also, because there was a protective order in place, and Ex was still using drugs and alcohol and in and out of jail, when I filed for divorce they pretty much handed me everything I asked for.

 

 

10 years later, he has been sober, no further arrests, and been active in recovery and church. He is officially diagnosed as Bipolar, but, someone with Bi-polar who is manic, or depressed spews their unbalanced behavior all over the place. They don't hide it behind closed doors and only give it to those closest to them.

 

 

To me a good decision for my son would be to limit contact to only days, or one night at a time, or even frankly less with court ordered supervision. Getting this put in place will likely prove next to impossible, especially as I see the custody and parental rights battle going with his soon to be Ex wife, and their daughter.

 

 

I agree that I need to stop being flexible, and have already determined to put my foot down and **** the consequence. Until the crazy started getting bad, I really felt like it was in DS best interest to keep things calm and peaceful and show that his Dad and I could work together as a team. Things have changed, rapidly, and it stinks!

 

I think you know what needs to be done. It's going to be hard, but the safety of your son is what should be most important. :grouphug:

[Reflections]

IMO, take it or leave it....stop being "polite" to someone who you think is harming your ds. (Said with love and understanding, really)

[jeninok]

Can anyone affirm my thoughts on the apologizing to god comment? I always wonder if I am over reacting?

 

I would definitely re-start counseling so that someone besides you can reassure your son that his dad's behavior has nothing to do with him.

 

 

 

Well, then, I think you need to re-evaluate the situation. You have the control. But, keep in mind, once you start exercising that control? The situation is likely to escalate. These situations are so hard. I hope you can find a solution that is better for your ds. :grouphug:

 

 

This is my biggest fear, the escalation, isolation and petty hatefulness that will ensue. I think I have been much to complacent in the ideal of keeping the peace, and thinking of escalating it scares the bejeebers out of me.

[PrincessMommy]

Can anyone affirm my thoughts on the apologizing to god comment? I always wonder if I am over reacting?

 

 

 

This is my biggest fear, the escalation, isolation and petty hatefulness that will ensue. I think I have been much to complacent in the ideal of keeping the peace, and thinking of escalating it scares the bejeebers out of me.

 

You are not over reacting - it is totally unacceptable for him to say that to anyone and most especially a child. :glare: Read to your son from the Parable of the Sheep and Goats and talk with him about the criteria Jesus uses for judgment.

[Mrs Mungo]

I know you asked for affirmation of this bit, but I'm not sure I understood exactly what happened.

 

After his dad questioned him, he tried to say that just because he knows the process that doesn't mean he doesn't believe that God put it into motion.

 

Your son said (something to the effect of), "I know the process, but that doesn't mean that I don't believe God put it into motion"? Is that right? I mean, that's what I believe, that God set things in motion.

 

His dad's response was to tell DS that one day when dies, he will get to heaven and look up into the face of God, and he will know he was horribly wrong and have to apologize to god for his sin.

 

What sin is your son supposed to have committed? I guess I don't even understand the comment? It seems like a weird response.

 

I get that this is not a typical christian response, and I feel like it screams abusive tactics, belittling, and spitefulness.

 

I don't know. To ME (having dealt with lots of these types of Christians)? It seems like the answer of someone who didn't understand what your son was talking about, so he turned it around. My experience is that it is a common tactic of people with limited understanding. I don't think they mean it to be belittling or controlling. It's more of a response to *feeling* belittled because they didn't understand. Does that make sense?

[Anne in CA]

Honestly, my dh's ex wife is diagnosed with bi-polar, but I think she has borderline personality disorder. She can put on a great act for a few months to trap a new boyfriend or mother figure, but she is really a control freak who wants to cause havoc for the people around her. We always stuck to the visitation schedule and we had a provision that if she drank when dd was there we could stop visitation. It never worked, she always drank during visitation but dh would not stop visitation:confused: because he was afraid my step dd would be hurt by stopping visitation.

 

I dealt with a lot of it by making sure that my dd had only the most functional people in her life at our house. I also made sure that she had a good counselor to help her figure things out. However, the damage done to my dsd from a parent who is just not interested in investing in her child, but wants control was very bad. My dsd has issues that drive me nuts even though I do love her very much.

 

Really, you do need to limit visitation but I would try to be creative about doing so as much as you can. First off, stick to the schedule and don't do make up days when he misses. Next, if you can move somewhere that is inconvenient to your dh without violating your divorce decree it might be cheaper than court. I have learned the hard way the children are not very important in court, and a good manipulator is often listened to over a loving parent. Lastly, use anything from the other issues with his ex that you can. Learn from her case to save yourself money if you do have to go to court.:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

[jeninok]

I do think normally I would agree with that, but what it seems to me, is that his son clearly showed his intelligence and understanding of the world around him, and Exh, can't have someone being smarter or more perceptive in his presence.

 

The real issue was that DS corrected him, and said Dinosaurs were not in fact the first creatures....here is how it happened, and his dad, rather than being impressed with the child's education, told him he needed to apologize to god.

 

 

Now if I had any inkling the man was truly capable of understanding Jesus, or internalizing the lessons he gets at church I might approach this differently, thinking it was a theological difference, or religious misunderstanding.

[Mrs Mungo]

I do think normally I would agree with that, but what it seems to me, is that his son clearly showed his intelligence and understanding of the world around him, and Exh, can't have someone being smarter or more perceptive in his presence.

 

The real issue was that DS corrected him, and said Dinosaurs were not in fact the first creatures....here is how it happened, and his dad, rather than being impressed with the child's education, told him he needed to apologize to god.

 

But, I think a lot of people react poorly to children being more educated on a topic than they are. I think it was just a bad, ill-thought-out reaction. I agree with your perception of the incident. I guess I just don't know that I view it as controlling/abusive. I view it as: he has little insight as to what your son said, he has little insight to Christianity, he is just reacting in a way that is probably similar to how people (parental figures, especially) reacted to him in the past.

[Galatea]

If you believe that your ex is a threat to your child, emotionally or psychologically, then you should use your custody agreement to protect your son. If visitation is only every other weekend, limit it to that. Don't send your son to him for holidays beyond that. If visitation is supposed to be supervised, that is for a reason. Make sure that it IS supervised.

 

If you are worried about escalation, document everything. When you talk to your ex to set up visitation, write down what is said and when, as detailed as possible. Don't worry about whether it sounds "mean" or not, worry about your son. Find out if you are allowed to record phone or in person conversations in your state. Make sure that whoever is supervising visitation is taking notes on how the visitation is going. If you can't trust the person supervising to do so, find a new person to supervise. If you are diligent, if things escalate you will have something to show to a judge or social worker to get help, not just a he said-she said situation.

[Little Nyssa]

If you are the one to make all parenting decisions, doesn't religion come under that? I agree that what he said to DS and how he is treating him is horrible, and it would be a good idea to limit the visitation as PPs said above--

I'm just recalling a friend who divorced and her XDH was required by the custody agreement to take the kids to their usual church even when they are with him for the weekend, and not to teach them anything against it. I have no idea how usual that is, though, or if it applies in your case.

:grouphug:

[Joanne]

If you believe that your ex is a threat to your child, emotionally or psychologically, then you should use your custody agreement to protect your son. If visitation is only every other weekend, limit it to that. Don't send your son to him for holidays beyond that. If visitation is supposed to be supervised, that is for a reason. Make sure that it IS supervised.

 

If you are worried about escalation, document everything. When you talk to your ex to set up visitation, write down what is said and when, as detailed as possible. Don't worry about whether it sounds "mean" or not, worry about your son. Find out if you are allowed to record phone or in person conversations in your state. Make sure that whoever is supervising visitation is taking notes on how the visitation is going. If you can't trust the person supervising to do so, find a new person to supervise. If you are diligent, if things escalate you will have something to show to a judge or social worker to get help, not just a he said-she said situation.

 

This.

 

Only don't expect a family law court to recognize or respond appropriately to the nuance of NPD manipulations. It could very well be that your xh is all the things you say and that your life is as you posted; but basically, the court will protect any non custodial parent's right to parent, to spend time with, and to shape, form, and influence their child.

 

70% or more of what you say (whether it *should* be changed or not) won't matter to most family law courts. They will see a sober, productive father who wants to be part of his son's life.

 

Your ONLY power is in your time with your son, and enforcing your decree as it stands.

[jeninok]

But, I think a lot of people react poorly to children being more educated on a topic than they are. I think it was just a bad, ill-thought-out reaction. I agree with your perception of the incident. I guess I just don't know that I view it as controlling/abusive. I view it as: he has little insight as to what your son said, he has little insight to Christianity, he is just reacting in a way that is probably similar to how people (parental figures, especially) reacted to him in the past.

 

I think that I agree with you here, and I'm not trying to argue! I just see red flags of the devaluing process beginning. The same man was berating me on Thursday because DS didn't know his 9 and 7 times tables quickly enough, so I was failing to educate him.

 

He has also been insisting and throwing absolute fits anytime his

oon to be exW and I get the kiddos together for time on our own. He can't fathom that for the 4 years they were together, I spoke to him maybe twice and Amy and I formed a deep friendship based on common interests, parenting these awesome kids that are siblings, and finally when I saw the cards falling I stepped in as a woman to another woman, and provided information and support. I did not do this out of jealousy or spite, but out of genuine concern for her the child's safety.

 

I don't see how it can be a bad thing, ever for the kiddos to have extra time together. They are siblings, and this woman will be in our life forever, whether he likes it or not!

 

Trying to limit the time siblings spend together, as only when he is in charge

eems like triangulation, and control IMO.

 

But I still doubt myself, talking about this, and reading the other NPD thread cause my heartbeat to go way up, my stomach to turn, and my hands to shake. So sometimes I worry I'm being too sensitive, then I worry I'm being hateful, then I doubt my judgement. And finally I get angry because I know why I'm doing all those things.

[Mrs Mungo]

I'm sorry you all are going through this. Have you done counseling? Maybe it would help you too. Maybe you could even find a support group? :grouphug:

[jeninok]

I'm sorry you all are going through this. Have you done counseling? Maybe it would help you too. Maybe you could even find a support group? :grouphug:

 

 

I do think I need to, at the time when I left I wasn't able to cope with therapy. And honestly having met and married such a wonderful man for the last 7 years brought about more healing than I could have hoped for. Then we had years of relative peace, it wasn't ever directed at DS and I was able to be distant and remote enough, while still polite that it didn't effect me directly either.

 

Now that he is single, without supply, and likely in a very bad place it has swung back our direction. I am also doubting his total sobrietry to some degree, but short of hiring a private detective I don't know how to prove it.

[Joanne]

If you haven't already seen this site, or read anything by this author, this may help:

 

http://www.lundybancroft.com/?page_id=279

[jeninok]

Thank you for that link!

The little I have read is helpful so far.

 

I've let the most important people surrounding me know that things have escalated, reached out to some resources to try to get referrals to a good therapist that specialized in NPD and will work with kids/families, and am now having a nice big glass of wine.

 

 

My concern is that we are 10 years down the line. It will take the right experts, lawyers and help to get what I am probably going to need. I see the current fight going on with the other child, and it doesn't look great.