If you use Beast Academy and Singapore....

[Rosie]

Do you think teaching variables in BA 3C would conflict with the teaching of bar diagrams? Variables are more abstract than bar diagrams. I'm just concerned that my girls will not want to do the bar diagrams if they already know how to do it using algebra, and I think it's important to understand the bar diagram method. It actually makes it clear what is happening in the problem. Algebra doesn't. At least, that's my personal experience (though, I was taught procedurally instead of conceptually, so maybe that's the problem). I could turn a word problem into algebra and then follow the steps to figure it out, but I didn't understand what I was doing even though I got the right answers. Once I went through the CWP books (3 and 4) last year I truly understood what was happening because I could SEE IT.

 

This is also why I'm hesitant about doing HOE and Dragon Box. And it's why I haven't added any more algebra videos to what we have online so far (see link in my siggy) - because I'm not sure it would be beneficial to my kids to learn algebra right now.

 

So, opinions? Personal experiences? Anyone taught their kids algebra before bar diagrams and still found the diagrams useful?

 

(My oldest has only gone through CWP 2, if that matters....)

[Roadrunner]

I am hoping it will nicely complement each other. We can do a bar diagram to "see" the problem and then use algebra to "formulate" it.

If my son finds is confusing, I will delay Beast until he absolutely masters bar diagrams.

 

We also only did CWP2, but finished 3A textbook, workbook and IP. I am planning on doing all the Beast that comes out (we only have one chapter left in 3B) + CWP3 + SM 4A textbook, workbook, IP over the next school year.

Edited August 1, 2012 by Roadrunner

[FairProspects]

Ugh, see I really don't want to teach bar diagrams and I was really hoping that the BA variables chapter would just get me around them. How do they help so much more? I seriously can't figure them out. Can you make be a bar-diagram video, Rosie? :D

[Rosie]

I am hoping it will nicely complement each other. We can do a bar diagram to "see" the problem and then use algebra to "formulate" it.

If my son finds is confusing, I will delay Beast until he absolutely masters bar diagrams.

 

Why didn't I think of doing a bar diagram first? Maybe that's what we'll do. I'm still a bit worried, though, that they'll want to skip the diagrams because algebra would be easier.... Hmmm.....

 

 

We also only did CWP2, but finished 3A textbook, workbook and IP. I am planning on doing all the Beast that comes out (we only have one chapter left in 3B) + CWP3 + SM 4A textbook, workbook, IP over the next school year.

 

That's kinda sorta my plan for my almost 9yo. She hasn't done any Singapore 3 yet, but with what I've taught her with the C-rods over the past few months, I think she'll fly through it. We may even skip most of it. Not sure yet....

 

We'll also do MM Fractions, PGCM, and iPad apps. Shhhhh, don't tell her that's more than most people do for math!!!

[Rosie]

Ugh, see I really don't want to teach bar diagrams and I was really hoping that the BA variables chapter would just get me around them. How do they help so much more? I seriously can't figure them out. Can you make be a bar-diagram video, Rosie? :D

 

They helped ME because I had to draw out each step and I could see what was happening in each step. It's very possible that it's because I'm a visual learner that it clicked so well. With algebra (and elementary math, too), I just followed the rules without understanding why I was doing what I was doing. Like, when you want to find 2/5 of 250, I knew you had to divide by the denominator and multiply the numerator, but I couldn't tell you WHY. The bar diagrams make it easy to see why.

 

Bar diagram videos are a great idea! I'm just not sure I understand it well enough to TEACH it yet (well, to anyone besides my kids! I can stumble through it with them and they don't mind!). I'll have to work on that!

[Snickerdoodle]

I am hoping it will nicely complement each other. We can do a bar diagram to "see" the problem and then use algebra to "formulate" it.

This is what we did from the get go and it has served us well.

[zoo_keeper]

LOF elementary's introduction of variable usage hasn't impeded my older daughters' understanding of the bar method.

[Deniseibase]

I think it very much depends on your DC's learning style. If you have a visual or hands-on learner, I would absolutely teach bar diagrams first. But if you have a kid who is more another style it may not matter too much. My DD is very auditory, I never had heard of bar diagrams until she was already in pre-algebra, and it doesn't seem to make any difference so far. She's very comfortable with variables and seems to have a good conceptual understanding of them.

[Rosie]

This is what we did from the get go and it has served us well.

 

And your kids didn't complain about having to do both?

[FairProspects]

Slight hijack - so I'm watching the videos Rosie posted on another thread about bar diagrams (thanks for those, Rosie!) and all I can think is that Mr. Super-Spatial ds will be so annoyed that my comparison bar diagrams are not proportionately accurate. As in, he will be trying to solve the problem spatially rather than numerically (this has come up multiple times in BA). Has any had this problem with their dc and bar diagrams? How did you handle it?

[Rosie]

Slight hijack - so I'm watching the videos Rosie posted on another thread about bar diagrams (thanks for those, Rosie!) and all I can think is that Mr. Super-Spatial ds will be so annoyed that my comparison bar diagrams are not proportionately accurate. As in, he will be trying to solve the problem spatially rather than numerically (this has come up multiple times in BA). Has any had this problem with their dc and bar diagrams? How did you handle it?

 

Why can't you draw them proportionately? Or are you saying in the videos (the Thinking Blocks ones, right?) they're not proportionate? It definitely helps to see them at least close to being proportionate!

[FairProspects]

Why can't you draw them proportionately? Or are you saying in the videos (the Thinking Blocks ones, right?) they're not proportionate? It definitely helps to see them at least close to being proportionate!

 

They will be close to proportionate, but not exactly accurate because the quantities you are solving for are unknowns. Ds would think that the unknown you drew was accurate by grids or something and start measuring mentally if that makes sense. Ex - the 9 might not be exactly 3/4 of the 12, etc. Ds would know this intuitively and it would bother him because he would be trying to guess the answer off the spatial comparison rather than the calculation. I was just wondering if anyone else had run into this issue and whether it changed the effectiveness of bar diagrams as a tool.

[nov05mama]

I am hoping it will nicely complement each other. We can do a bar diagram to "see" the problem and then use algebra to "formulate" it.

 

:iagree: This is my plan as well!

[Rosie]

They will be close to proportionate, but not exactly accurate because the quantities you are solving for are unknowns. Ds would think that the unknown you drew was accurate by grids or something and start measuring mentally if that makes sense. Ex - the 9 might not be exactly 3/4 of the 12, etc. Ds would know this intuitively and it would bother him because he would be trying to guess the answer off the spatial comparison rather than the calculation. I was just wondering if anyone else had run into this issue and whether it changed the effectiveness of bar diagrams as a tool.

 

 

OK, I understand. We haven't run into that, but I'm sure other people have! Hopefully they'll chime in!

 

I wonder, though, if it might be that he is still in a more concrete stage of thinking so it's hard for him to wrap his mind around the fact that the bars might not be exactly proportional. Maybe that will change with time? How old is he?

[SnegurochkaL]

So, opinions? Personal experiences? Anyone taught their kids algebra before bar diagrams and still found the diagrams useful?

 

(My oldest has only gone through CWP 2, if that matters....)

 

I haven't used BA with my kids yet, but I used an advanced Russian math program and SM with my daughter. This math program introduces variables in 1st grade and my son, who is only 5, has no problems understanding them.

 

When dd works with Singapore math, she uses a bar diagram method; when my child studies Russian math, she uses algebra. No confusion at all.

I think that a bar diagram method is a good visual tool, which helps to think analytically and "see" the problem. I strongly advice my daughter to use both methods to solve challenging word problems.

Edited August 3, 2012 by SneguochkaL

[Rosie]

I haven't used BA with my kids yet, but I used an advanced Russian math program and SM with my daughter. This math program introduces variables in 1st grade and my son, who is only 5, has no problems understanding them.

 

When dd works with Singapore math, she uses a bar diagram method; when my child studies Russian math, she uses algebra. No confusion at all.

I think that a bar diagram method is a good visual tool, which helps to think analytically and "see" the problem. I strongly advice my daughter to use both methods to solve challenging word problems.

 

Ok, thank you! That's helpful!

[fourisenough]

Here's another vote for Rosie to make some videos about the model method. We all realize you're just a mom trying to teach your kids (at least I do) and will be forgiving of any mistakes or stumbles. Your explanations and your kids reactions have been SO helpful for me on other topics that I anticipate your elucidation of the model method will work for me too!

 

For some reason I've always been intimidated by teaching this way. It is so much easier for me to explain using algebra that I often mumble through it and then show my kids how I solved it without any good explanation understandable to them! Lovely, I know... Please submit your nominations for "Teacher of the year!"

[Rosie]

Here's another vote for Rosie to make some videos about the model method. We all realize you're just a mom trying to teach your kids (at least I do) and will be forgiving of any mistakes or stumbles. Your explanations and your kids reactions have been SO helpful for me on other topics that I anticipate your elucidation of the model method will work for me too!

 

For some reason I've always been intimidated by teaching this way. It is so much easier for me to explain using algebra that I often mumble through it and then show my kids how I solved it without any good explanation understandable to them! Lovely, I know... Please submit your nominations for "Teacher of the year!"

 

LOL! Well, that's probably the next thing on the list of videos to get done... though, I'm not sure when I'll get time to do it. Summer's been CRAZY, we've got family visiting, we're going on vacation, then starting up school again. I do think it would help people, though, even though I'm still learning, myself. I'll do my best to get something up by the end of August!

[Beth in SW WA]

Here's another vote for Rosie to make some videos about the model method.

 

:iagree:

Until Rosie takes on this new project, I am using the c-rods with the videos from Thinking Blocks. Give it a try. Pics here. I am also starting to use the c-rods with the SM cwps/ips. It's a nice twist on an old favorite. You can use a white board to label. Or not. :)

 

Rosie, re your OP....both girls use SM bars and HoE. They haven't had trouble going back and forth. Aly took a break from bar diagrams for June/July and it took a few lessons to get back into the swing of it again.

 

The BA 3C samples look fantastic. We'll add it to the mix this winter.

 

HTH!

[FairProspects]

So if I wanted to start teaching bar diagrams, but am using BA as our main math, can I just jump in at Singapore 3A CWP to start using them? That's where they begin, right?

[Beth in SW WA]

So if I wanted to start teaching bar diagrams, but am using BA as our main math, can I just jump in at Singapore 3A CWP to start using them? That's where they begin, right?

 

You could save money and start with Thinking Blocks videos (free).

[FairProspects]

You could save money and start with Thinking Blocks videos (free).

 

Yeah, I've already watched the videos (which really helped me understand bar diagrams) but now I'm just looking for problems to practice. I own CWP for levels 3 & 4, so I wouldn't be out any money. I'm just not sure where in the sequence Singapore expects students to be using bar diagrams to solve the problems.

[Beth in SW WA]

Yeah, I've already watched the videos (which really helped me understand bar diagrams) but now I'm just looking for problems to practice. I own CWP for levels 3 & 4, so I wouldn't be out any money. I'm just not sure where in the sequence Singapore expects students to be using bar diagrams to solve the problems.

 

Just start with level 3 if your dc are savvy on multiplication.

[Roadrunner]

I think bar diagrams are more than just about usefulness. I can formulate any problems with algebra and solve it, but when I first learned how to diagram the problems, I finally understood why algebra worked. Honestly, I had so many light bulb moments with diagrams.

My son is the same way. He will diagram a problem and his eyes light up. I am sure there are kids who can visualize why algebra works, but with an exception of my husband (HD doesn't need a diagram to "see math") in my family we all need pictures.

 

I am very ashamed to admit that until "perfect square" chapter in the BA, I had no idea "squaring" had anything to do with real squares. To my defense, the concept uses different word than a "square" in my native language, but you get the point. I will draw diagrams, squares, anything that's visual just to make sure my kids see math, not just manipulate numbers.

[Spy Car]

Do you think teaching variables in BA 3C would conflict with the teaching of bar diagrams? Variables are more abstract than bar diagrams. I'm just concerned that my girls will not want to do the bar diagrams if they already know how to do it using algebra, and I think it's important to understand the bar diagram method. It actually makes it clear what is happening in the problem. Algebra doesn't. At least, that's my personal experience (though, I was taught procedurally instead of conceptually, so maybe that's the problem). I could turn a word problem into algebra and then follow the steps to figure it out, but I didn't understand what I was doing even though I got the right answers. Once I went through the CWP books (3 and 4) last year I truly understood what was happening because I could SEE IT.

 

This is also why I'm hesitant about doing HOE and Dragon Box. And it's why I haven't added any more algebra videos to what we have online so far (see link in my siggy) - because I'm not sure it would be beneficial to my kids to learn algebra right now.

 

So, opinions? Personal experiences? Anyone taught their kids algebra before bar diagrams and still found the diagrams useful?

 

(My oldest has only gone through CWP 2, if that matters....)

 

Thus far we've had no issues. My son has used variables in word problems and solved basic linear equations using Primary Grade Challenge Math, some SMSG work, homemade problems from me, and recently using DragonBox. I'm looking forward to BA 3 C.

 

We will soon start Singapore 4, so the sophistication of the bar diagrams is going to jump up. I can't say with utter certainty that I won't hear, "why can't we solve the problem with algebra vs bars," but so far, so good.

 

All along we have worked on multiple ways of problem solving using different strategies. I don't see why this should be any different. That is my hope anyway. We will see.

 

Bill

[Rosie]

Rosie, re your OP....both girls use SM bars and HoE. They haven't had trouble going back and forth. Aly took a break from bar diagrams for June/July and it took a few lessons to get back into the swing of it again.

 

 

Thanks, Beth! I think I'm just not going to worry about it. We'll do both ways and hopefully my girls won't complain!

 

I think I'm just overly worried about them understanding procedurally and not conceptually, but I need to remember that I went "backwards" and learned it (still learning!) conceptually so they can, too, if they need to.

 

Hmmmm, maybe it's time to try Dragon Box....

[Rosie]

Thus far we've had no issues. My son has used variables in word problems and solved basic linear equations using Primary Grade Challenge Math, some SMSG work, homemade problems from me, and recently using DragonBox. I'm looking forward to BA 3 C.

 

We will soon start Singapore 4, so the sophistication of the bar diagrams is going to jump up. I can't say with utter certainty that I won't hear, "why can't we solve the problem with algebra vs bars," but so far, so good.

 

All along we have worked on multiple ways of problem solving using different strategies. I don't see why this should be any different. That is my hope anyway. We will see.

 

Bill

 

Thanks, Bill.

 

I think I need to focus more on the bolded above. I haven't made it much of a priority, but I can see it's usefulness. My oldest tends to be a "get 'er done" type so I'm not sure if she'll be gung ho about finding more ways to do something she already knows how to do, but I'm going to attempt it anyway....

[Mom-ninja.]

Slight hijack - so I'm watching the videos Rosie posted on another thread about bar diagrams (thanks for those, Rosie!) and all I can think is that Mr. Super-Spatial ds will be so annoyed that my comparison bar diagrams are not proportionately accurate. As in, he will be trying to solve the problem spatially rather than numerically (this has come up multiple times in BA). Has any had this problem with their dc and bar diagrams? How did you handle it?

 

They will be close to proportionate, but not exactly accurate because the quantities you are solving for are unknowns. Ds would think that the unknown you drew was accurate by grids or something and start measuring mentally if that makes sense. Ex - the 9 might not be exactly 3/4 of the 12, etc. Ds would know this intuitively and it would bother him because he would be trying to guess the answer off the spatial comparison rather than the calculation. I was just wondering if anyone else had run into this issue and whether it changed the effectiveness of bar diagrams as a tool.

 

 

My ds is the same. As it turns out he's dyslexic and after reading The Dyslexic Advantage I realize now how my ds's brain functions. It is not something he will grow out of. It drives him crazy when the bar diagrams are not exactly proportionate. We've put CWP on the back burner because we were both getting frustrated.

[Spy Car]

Thanks, Bill.

 

I think I need to focus more on the bolded above. I haven't made it much of a priority, but I can see it's usefulness. My oldest tends to be a "get 'er done" type so I'm not sure if she'll be gung ho about finding more ways to do something she already knows how to do, but I'm going to attempt it anyway....

 

Not that you necessarily want to/need to add another book to the pile, but we have been using the Fan Math Express books from Singapore Math, which spell out (and work) alternative speed and mental math strategies.

 

Even before that I almost always asked for "explanations" of the strategies/methods used, and often asked for my son "what other strategies might you use?" (especially when I saw ways I thought were faster for a given problem.

 

You might (or might not) find Math Express overkill, but working multiple mental math strategies is worthwhile IMO. It can even be kind of fun.

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

Thanks, Beth! I think I'm just not going to worry about it. We'll do both ways and hopefully my girls won't complain!

 

I think I'm just overly worried about them understanding procedurally and not conceptually, but I need to remember that I went "backwards" and learned it (still learning!) conceptually so they can, too, if they need to.

 

Hmmmm, maybe it's time to try Dragon Box....

 

DragonBox is great fun, and good for learning-by-stealth by playing a game.

 

For something more explicit that is fun and really explains variables well for children of this age Ed Zaccaro's Primary Grade Challenge Math has several chapters on basic algebra that are really good. And it has other "advanced" topics that are similarly well explained.

 

Bill

[Rosie]

DragonBox is great fun, and good for learning-by-stealth by playing a game.

 

For something more explicit that is fun and really explains variables well for children of this age Ed Zaccaro's Primary Grade Challenge Math has several chapters on basic algebra that are really good. And it has other "advanced" topics that are similarly well explained.

 

Bill

 

Yep, we have PGCM and are about halfway through it, I think. I was going to skip the algebra chapter, but I'm rethinking that now.

[Rosie]

Not that you necessarily want to/need to add another book to the pile, but we have been using the Fan Math Express books from Singapore Math, which spell out (and work) alternative speed and mental math strategies.

 

Even before that I almost always asked for "explanations" of the strategies/methods used, and often asked for my son "what other strategies might you use?" (especially when I saw ways I thought were faster for a given problem.

 

You might (or might not) find Math Express overkill, but working multiple mental math strategies is worthwhile IMO. It can even be kind of fun.

 

Bill

 

I don't think I want to add another book right now, but I'll keep that in mind if I do!

 

I do often ask how they mentally solved a problem and then, if I do it differently, explain how I did it, all while emphasizing that both ways are just fine.

 

This topic kind of reminds me of what I read in Marilyn Burns' books (maybe Writing in Math Class?) where she has the class discuss how they got the answer to problems, so they are basically teaching each other new ways of thinking. Maybe I need to find some other kids for us to do math with!!!

[letsplaymath]

My ds is the same. As it turns out he's dyslexic and after reading The Dyslexic Advantage I realize now how my ds's brain functions. It is not something he will grow out of. It drives him crazy when the bar diagrams are not exactly proportionate. We've put CWP on the back burner because we were both getting frustrated.

You might try "word algebra" with your ds, instead of the bar diagrams. My Word Problems from Literature series explains word algebra and works through several examples:

Elementary Problem Solving: The Tools

Penguin Math: Elementary Problem Solving 2nd Grade

 

Ben Franklin Math: Elementary Problem Solving 3rd Grade

 

Algebra: A Problem in Translation

You could probably work through your CWP books using word algebra, if you think your son would take to it.

[Mom-ninja.]

You might try "word algebra" with your ds, instead of the bar diagrams. My Word Problems from Literature series explains word algebra and works through several examples:

Elementary Problem Solving: The Tools

 

Penguin Math: Elementary Problem Solving 2nd Grade

 

 

Ben Franklin Math: Elementary Problem Solving 3rd Grade

 

 

Algebra: A Problem in Translation

You could probably work through your CWP books using word algebra, if you think your son would take to it.

 

Thanks for these links.