Did anybody NOT like Downton Abbey? Why not?

[kalanamak]

She said the relationship between the family and servants was too familiar.

 

When they did Gosford Park, many very, very old servants were interviewed. The writer also used events from his ?great aunt's? household. The relations were much cooler. The "special sections" of the Gosford Park DVD have interviews of these old folks.

 

BTW, while there is a usual PG sex scene in Gosford Park, the director wanted an R rating to "keep giggling teenaged boys" from disturbing the adults, so he put in 4 "bad words" to get the R. I could only hear 1 clearly, and one rather hurried spoken. I didn't find the other 2. How Altman-like.

[kalanamak]

Oh, I'm sure it has. But the overwhelming majority of viewers sing its praises highly.

 

But I wish it had been made more clear it was a soap opera.

[HappyGrace]

Sure, but in the time it takes to make a post and check back for more responses for a few days, the OP could have started watching the first episode and known for sure whether it was something she was interested in continuing.

 

I'm SO glad I didn't watch it and asked here first because I don't have any desire to watch homosexuals kissing, as in the first episode. Regardless of our culture's current social mores regarding homosexuality, it is "an abomination to the Lord" (God's laws, not mine-argue with Him, not me) and not something I'm interested in seeing. I just don't want that visual in my mind, no matter how hard they are trying to push their agenda and have it in front of our faces everywhere.

 

It's too bad they have to put stuff like that into what otherwise might have been ok.

 

I really appreciate all the feedback!! It's so helpful!!

[Slartibartfast]

I'm SO glad I didn't watch it and asked here first because I don't have any desire to watch homosexuals kissing, as in the first episode. Regardless of our culture's current social mores regarding homosexuality, it is "an abomination to the Lord" and not something I'm interested in seeing. I just don't want that visual in my mind, no matter how hard they are trying to push their agenda and have it in front of our faces everywhere.

 

It's too bad they have to put stuff like that into what otherwise might have been ok.

 

I really appreciate all the feedback!! It's so helpful!!

 

That is only in the first episode.

 

I find Black Adder to be more of an Abomination than two men kissing but whatever.

[Mrs Mungo]

Personally, I don't see a pro-gay message in it. It is portrayed as aberrant behavior on the part of the "bad guy." So strange to assume just because homosexuals are portrayed that there is a pro-gay agenda being pushed.

Edited July 8, 2012 by Mrs Mungo
Just in case

[kalanamak]

Personally, I don't see a pro-gay message in it. It is portrayed as aberrant behavior on the part of the "bad guy." So strange to assume just because homosexuals are portrayed that there is a pro-gay agenda being pushed.

 

:iagree: Yes, it was certainly involved only with infradig men.

[Slartibartfast]

I don't recall an actual kiss taking place. There was a scene where a man tried to kiss another man, but he was pushed away and embarassed about it because the other man was straight. Do I remember it incorrectly?

 

 

No, male character 1 makes a pass at male character 2 and is angrily pushed away. But that SAME male character also kisses male character 3 and that is mutual. (only male character 1 is a regular on the show, the others don't make another appearance and there is no more kissing)

[redsquirrel]

So I guess all the movie critics' opinions are worthless, as are the ratings on Amazon, etc. and all the review websites that are out there. Not to mention all the evaluations of books, wine and tv shows. What's wrong with asking? Of course people like different things - nothing wrong with getting someone else's take on a book or movie. If you can eliminate something from all those choices, you've saved yourself some time and/or money.

 

 

It just seemed odd to hear someone ask if they will like something they are already watching.

 

It would be like me eating a quarter of my sandwich and then asking other people to tell me if I like it enough to finish eating the rest. Or watching a play until the intermission and then asking the rest of audience to decide for me if I like it enough to watch the second act. How would anyone else know that better than I?

[redsquirrel]

I don't recall an actual kiss taking place. There was a scene where a man tried to kiss another man, but he was pushed away and embarassed about it because the other man was straight. Do I remember it incorrectly?

 

If you are speaking of season 1, there was an attempt at a kiss and the man was pushed away, but they had been lovers. The man who pushed him away was not continuing his relationship. The man who pushed him away had written many love letters to the man he pushed.

 

And the comparison to Gosford Park is apt. Both are from the same writer. Julien Fellowes was nominated for an Oscar for Gosford Park and followed it up by writing Downton Abby.

[Slartibartfast]

Both the attempt and the kiss are in this youtube video

 

Spoiler warning for other episodes it is a montage of one character

 

[Slartibartfast]

Huh. I seriously have no recollection of that at all. :confused:

 

I think this warrants re-watching the entire series from the beginning, don't you? :D

 

Indubitably ;)

[kalanamak]

Both the attempt and the kiss are in this youtube video

 

Spoiler warning for other episodes it is a montage of one character

 

 

Since there is only noisy music, these clips don't show Thomas as the most wholly evil character in Series 1, and that his "real" orientation is not made clear: his acts are mercenary to get a trip or to blackmail, etc.

[Slartibartfast]

Since there is only noisy music, these clips don't show Thomas as the most wholly evil character in Series 1, and that his "real" orientation is not made clear: his acts are mercenary to get a trip or to blackmail, etc.

 

I have my sound off cause we are watching this

 

http://www.starwarsuncut.com/

 

Sorry if the music is obnoxious I didn't hear it :lol:

 

Like Mrs Mungo said, it is the "bad guy" doing the kissing so it seems more aberrant than endorsed

[Annie Laurie]

A soap opera version of the far superior Gosford Park.

 

Gosford Park is one of my all time favorite movies. I'm only 3 episdoes into Downton Abbey and I like it so far, but it does pale in comparison to Gosford Park.

 

I like historical dramas- one of my favorites was Deadwood, although Deadwood was much more graphic and about the American West. But I agree with those who said if you like historical fiction and dramas, you will probably like Downton Abbey.

[Mrs Mungo]

Since there is only noisy music, these clips don't show Thomas as the most wholly evil character in Series 1, and that his "real" orientation is not made clear: his acts are mercenary to get a trip or to blackmail, etc.

 

:iagree: That is my point, he is a bad guy. Therefore, I don't see any "pro-gay agenda."

 

I have my sound off cause we are watching this

 

http://www.starwarsuncut.com/

 

Sorry if the music is obnoxious I didn't hear it :lol:

 

I think that is my favorite movie, ever.

[HappyGrace]

I shouldn't have assumed a pro-gay agenda about DA; the pro-gay agenda is just so prevalent everywhere now that I jumped to the conclusion.

[Slartibartfast]

I shouldn't have assumed a pro-gay agenda about DA; the pro-gay agenda is just so prevalent everywhere now that I jumped to the conclusion.

 

There is no such thing as a "gay agenda" it is just people wanting normal lives.

 

No one calls it a "disabled agenda," or "minority agenda," or even, "curly haired agenda."

Edited July 8, 2012 by Sis

[kalanamak]

I shouldn't have assumed a pro-gay agenda about DA; the pro-gay agenda is just so prevalent everywhere now that I jumped to the conclusion.

 

I'm a big advocate of the ho hum-gay agenda, and it is one of the reasons I love where I live. Many followers of the ho hum-gay agenda out here. :D

[Kathleen in VA]

It just seemed odd to hear someone ask if they will like something they are already watching.

 

It would be like me eating a quarter of my sandwich and then asking other people to tell me if I like it enough to finish eating the rest. Or watching a play until the intermission and then asking the rest of audience to decide for me if I like it enough to watch the second act. How would anyone else know that better than I?

 

I didn't infer from her original post that she had already started watching it. Maybe I missed something.

[HappyGrace]

I didn't infer from her original post that she had already started watching it. Maybe I missed something.

 

Correct, I had not started watching it.

[stripe]

Oh, I'm sure it has. But the overwhelming majority of viewers sing its praises highly.

 

Sure, it's raised PBS viewership a lot. And I think it's nice to have a different show on tv, a period piece, whatever, so I don't hate the show or all it stands for. Here is an interesting review

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2012/mar/08/abbey-jumped-shark/?pagination=false

And this one, titled Downton Abbey: you are awful ... but I like you. :)

[Slartibartfast]

http://www.starwarsuncut.com/

 

 

If you watch it and see a bowling scene there is a lot of swearing in the bowling bit. It occurs when they are looking for Princess Leia. Just to give warning.

[HappyGrace]

Not to argue, but I think we can all admit that there most definitely is a pro-gay agenda-it is 1-3% of the U.S. population trying to normalize what has always in all cultures been known as a lifestyle that is against societal norms by pushing it politically and in the media, which they admit to and are proud of doing. And apparently doing a good job:

 

In fact, they have pushed it so much that Americans generally think there are many more homosexuals than there actually are. This is an interesting article by Gallup:

 

http://www.gallup.com/poll/6961/what-percentage-population-gay.aspx

 

That's all I have to say about that. It is what it is.

 

Sorry to get off the original topic, back to the DA talk...:)

[Slartibartfast]

Not to argue, but I think we can all admit that there most definitely is a pro-gay agenda-it is 1-3% of the U.S. population trying to normalize what has always in all cultures been known as a lifestyle that is against societal norms by pushing it politically and in the media, which they admit to and are proud of doing. And apparently doing a good job:

 

In fact, they have pushed it so much that Americans generally think there are many more homosexuals than there actually are. This is an interesting article by Gallup:

 

http://www.gallup.com/poll/6961/what-percentage-population-gay.aspx

 

That's all I have to say about that. It is what it is.

 

Back to the DA talk...:)

 

What are societal norms? Centuries of persecution? People having to hide who they are? Hide their relationships or risk banishment from their homes, imprisonment or even death? Cause that is historical treatment towards homosexuals and it is even the current treatment in some countries.

 

It isn't a "lifestyle" it is a life and they deserve a life just as anyone.

[Mrs Mungo]

Not to argue, but I think we can all admit that there most definitely is a pro-gay agenda-it is 1-3% of the U.S. population trying to normalize what has always in all cultures been known as a lifestyle that is against societal norms

 

I cannot agree with that at all. In fact, you are wildly misinformed. A classical education in Greek and Roman literature alone would show you otherwise.

[stripe]

The article from the NYReview of Books, it mentions that there often was a homosexual past between these lords and their valets, but that hasn't been explored in the show or even mentioned why on earth he wants Bates so badly. It appears that a not insignificant number of men today have similar behavior, even while identifying as straight.

 

I really don't think DA is a "gay" show, though.

[Slartibartfast]

The article from the NYReview of Books, it mentions that there often was a homosexual past between these lords and their valets, but that hasn't been explored in the show or even mentioned why on earth he wants Bates so badly. It appears that a not insignificant number of men today have similar behavior, even while identifying as straight.

 

I really don't think DA is a "gay" show, though.

 

It says in the program multiple times that Bates saved his life.

[catz]

I cannot agree with that at all. In fact, you are wildly misinformed. A classical education in Greek and Roman literature alone would show you otherwise.

 

:iagree: Wow. :001_huh:

[KRG]

I couldn't get past the first episode. It was boring to me.

[mamaraby]

HappyGrace - You have an interesting interpretation of history. There are groups today that enjoy far greater freedom than they did in the past. There are people who were seen as "other" and whose behavior was outside of social norms that are now far more mainstream (women being seen as people not property, women being able to work outside the home/vote/own property, not to mention changing attitudes regarding race and interracial marriage). By your measure we should give up these things because of how they were viewed in the past?

 

Regardless...from the link you gave:

 

It may be that no one will ever know for sure. To some people, homosexuality is a matter of perception and definition. Furthermore, many people have trouble admitting their homosexuality to themselves, much less to a researcher.

 

As long as there is fear of ostracism, bullying, and general abuse because LGBTQ people are seen as the "other" we will never know just how many people identify as such. Quite frankly, I can't say as I blame anyone for not wanting to tell others let alone a researcher given the amount of vitriol they face when they do.

 

Odd that this comes up in a discussion about Downton Abbey.

[HappyGrace]

You are correct-there are societies in which it was prevalent, including in the Bible-Sodom and Gomorrah-but it is explicitly spelled out there as wrong in God's eyes, even in societies where it is practiced and accepted by society.

 

If it's wrong in God's eyes, it's wrong. There is no debate.

[Ibbygirl]

I've watched most of season 2, just not the Christmas special.

 

B-b-but, that was the best one. :001_wub: :D

 

I don't recall an actual kiss taking place. There was a scene where a man tried to kiss another man, but he was pushed away and embarassed about it because the other man was straight. Do I remember it incorrectly?

 

Thomas has one kiss with the Duke of Crowborough and one attempted kiss with Kemal Pamuk.

[HappyGrace]

There are people who were seen as "other" and whose behavior was outside of social norms that are now far more mainstream (women being seen as people not property, women being able to work outside the home/vote/own property, not to mention changing attitudes regarding race and interracial marriage).

 

Jesus is the example, and He treated all people, and ESPECIALLY women (but also minorities of all sorts) in a way that is loving and kind.

 

I am as loving to homosexuals as I am to anyone else (there are several in my life) and I love them equally and without regard to their chosen lifestyle. I don't condone it, but I truly truly love them as people. I don't preach at them either. I just love them, like Jesus did.

[Mom in High Heels]

Wait, I go eat dinner and the thread has gone from how awesome DA is (and it is!) to it being part of a gay agenda? :001_huh: That's what I get for leaving the boards to eat!

[mamaraby]

You are correct-there are societies in which it was prevalent, including in the Bible-Sodom and Gomorrah-but it is explicitly spelled out there as wrong in God's eyes, even in societies where it is practiced and accepted by society.

 

If it's wrong in God's eyes, it's wrong. There is no debate.

 

Ahhh, well, thankfully we don't live in a theocracy and can agree to disagree.

 

Mom in High Heels - See? You're never allowed to leave the computer. Best bring your dinner to it instead of leave. ;)

[stripe]

It says in the program multiple times that Bates saved his life.

Right, but how, and is that a lie? It is a well established historical fact that officers had relationships with their batmen and then brought them home as their valets, where they helped them get dressed and otherwise looked after them in their separate bedroom from the wife's.

 

I am waiting patiently in line to see the Christmas special. I had to return the library DVD! ;)

[Slartibartfast]

You are correct-there are societies in which it was prevalent, including in the Bible-Sodom and Gomorrah-but it is explicitly spelled out there as wrong in God's eyes, even in societies where it is practiced and accepted by society.

 

If it's wrong in God's eyes, it's wrong. There is no debate.

 

Ezekeiel 16:49-50:"Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen."

 

That wasn't the only sin of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Edited July 8, 2012 by Sis

[HappyGrace]

There are groups today that enjoy far greater freedom than they did in the past

 

 

I support these groups of "other" that enjoy these freedoms today in every way, as long as it they are not classified as an "other" because their very "otherness" is an abomination to the Lord.

 

We all sin, we're all filthy before the Lord but for Christ. I am totally not judging-my sins are horrendous and sickening. But for Christ, I was hopeless in my own sin.

[Mrs Mungo]

You are correct-there are societies in which it was prevalent, including in the Bible-Sodom and Gomorrah-but it is explicitly spelled out there as wrong in God's eyes, even in societies where it is practiced and accepted by society.

 

One, you need to re-read your Bible on Sodom and Gomorrah. You are somewhat mistaken there. Keep in mind, God was willing to spare the cities if there was only ONE righteous man while you condemn entire societies based on one issue. Seems a little against the point of the story.

 

Two, these discussions become *highly* sticky because it is actually impossible to follow every commandment in the Bible. For example, you cannot both stone mouthy teenagers and treat them as you would like to be treated. Everyone does some picking and choosing, no matter what they might claim.

 

If it's wrong in God's eyes, it's wrong. There is no debate.

 

Plenty of people have debated it. Here is an interesting website: http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibl.htm

[HappyGrace]

We actually do live in a theocracy-someday every knee will bow and every tongue confess Jesus as Lord.

 

Again, His words, not mine.

[Slartibartfast]

We actually do live in a theocracy-someday every knee will bow and every tongue confess Jesus as Lord.

 

Again, His words, not mine.

 

We do not live in a Theocracy that would be against our Constitution.

[HappyGrace]

One, you need to re-read your Bible on Sodom and Gomorrah. You are somewhat mistaken there. Keep in mind, God was willing to spare the cities if there was only ONE righteous man while you condemn entire societies based on one issue. Seems a little against the point of the story. ]

 

But it is explicit there and elsewhere in the Bible that it is wrong, is my point. God's mercy is the reason He was willing to spare them for the sake of one righteous man.

 

As I said, I'm not perfect, I'm a horrible sinner, worse than homosexuality or many other things, I am sure. I've been a murderer in my thoughts, according to Jesus (see verses on anger being as bad as murder). No condemnation coming from me.

[HappyGrace]

We do not live in a Theocracy that would be against our Constitution.

 

I didn't mean our country, I meant the world God created.

 

I love the Lord and just want to follow His ways. He died for us and loves us. That's the Truth.

[Mom in High Heels]

We actually do live in a theocracy-someday every knee will bow and every tongue confess Jesus as Lord.

 

We can't even get 50% of people to agree on anything at any given time. The chances of everyone doing the same thing seems pretty slim.

[Scrub Jay]

I didn't mean our country, I meant the world God created.

 

I love the Lord and just want to follow His ways. He died for us and loves us. That's the Truth.

 

That is your truth.

[catz]

Wait, I go eat dinner and the thread has gone from how awesome DA is (and it is!) to it being part of a gay agenda? :001_huh: That's what I get for leaving the boards to eat!

 

ROFL - I am a bit puzzled myself. I'm not sure how this switched over to a religious debate.

 

If you have problem with relations outside marriage, a single gay character, or "evil" characters portrayed in a fictional story, this is not the series for you. It's probably not for you if you have an expectation of complete historic realism either. I've found it an entertaining diversion.

 

Jesus is the example, and He treated all people, and ESPECIALLY women (but also minorities of all sorts) in a way that is loving and kind.

 

I am as loving to homosexuals as I am to anyone else (there are several in my life) and I love them equally and without regard to their chosen lifestyle. I don't condone it, but I truly truly love them as people. I don't preach at them either. I just love them, like Jesus did.

 

I support these groups of "other" that enjoy these freedoms today in every way, as long as it they are not classified as an "other" because their very "otherness" is an abomination to the Lord.

 

We all sin, we're all filthy before the Lord but for Christ. I am totally not judging-my sins are horrendous and sickening. But for Christ, I was hopeless in my own sin.

 

You don't see how calling someone an abomination is not preachy? Really? :confused: You seem to have a very specific world view you don't want to venture from. You probably should have worded your question differently like "from a very Conservative Christian perspective, do you think I'd enjoy Downton Abbey". Because the answer would be no. You may want to word your questions in that context in the future.

[kalanamak]

We can't even get 50% of people to agree on anything at any given time. The chances of everyone doing the same thing seems pretty slim.

 

I bet if we were attacked by aliens, the whole world would unite pretty well. I also think it is the ONLY way we will unite.

[Melinda in VT]

But it is explicit there and elsewhere in the Bible that it is wrong, is my point. God's mercy is the reason He was willing to spare them for the sake of one righteous man.

 

As I said, I'm not perfect, I'm a horrible sinner, worse than homosexuality or many other things, I am sure. I've been a murderer in my thoughts, according to Jesus (see verses on anger being as bad as murder). No condemnation coming from me.

 

And yet you said a single homosexual kiss would make your decision about watching the show. You said nothing about a single character getting angry.

[Mom in High Heels]

I bet if we were attacked by aliens, the whole world would unite pretty well. I also think it is the ONLY way we will unite.

 

Or maybe zombies. :D

[kalanamak]

Not to argue, but I think we can all admit that there most definitely is a pro-gay agenda-it is 1-3% of the U.S. population trying to normalize what has always in all cultures been known as a lifestyle that is against societal norms by pushing it politically and in the media, which they admit to and are proud of doing. And apparently doing a good job

 

I'm not one of that 1-3%, but I seek to normalize (i.e. I'm going to vote on it this fall!). I believe greater than 1-3% of the population would like it normalized. We have more important issues in society to point our condemnation at.

 

And, I now suspect the most evil character in DA was prostituting himself in a foul, selfish way, just to get people talking about how normal it is on various boards on the web. ;)