At my school...

[creekland]

As my youngest was signing up for a community college class he's going to take next year through our school I heard the following VERY disturbing statistic:

 

Only 30% of our TOP high school students can pass the PLACEMENT test in math to take cc classes early. The math option they have (placing into) is College Algebra - essentially part of a typical Pre-Calc program - that is often considered remedial math with no credit given at many upper level colleges.

 

Only our top of the top kids try for these classes (and take the placement test). They have already completed (or close to it) our math sequence when they take the test.

 

And our school sees nothing wrong with this. It's the placement test that's difficult.

 

:banghead:

[G5052]

After graduation (and supposedly four years of high school math), only about that many place into college math from the local public high schools. With the economy the way it is and great transfer agreements, this includes many top graduates.

 

English is the same. Most have to take remedial English first.

 

And the superintendent blames the college (which uses the same state-mandated test that every other state community college uses).

[love2read]

It might be the nature of the CC tests. I've had a few take the test and the results seemed almost random. One dd who took cc courses at 17 had done math through Saxon Advanced Math and scored high 600s on the SAT was told she placed in a non credit remedial type course, 087 I believe, based on her results. She said the test was easy and she's not the type to make careless mistakes. We argued with the advisor and they finally "let"her go into the non credit 094 course instead. She was bored to tears and easily scored 100. She then figured out a way to bypass pre-requs and took pre-calc for math majors scoring an A with nothing lower than a 98 on the tests. She continued to take the higher courses and started tutoring in math for the school after that first pre-calc.

Another dc who stinks at math placed immediately into pre-calc. They wouldn't let us see the test results for either child and no amount of talking to advisers made a difference. Other hsing moms in our group have had the same thing happen.

[Teachin'Mine]

It might be the nature of the CC tests. I've had a few take the test and the results seemed almost random. One dd who took cc courses at 17 had done math through Saxon Advanced Math and scored high 600s on the SAT was told she placed in a non credit remedial type course, 087 I believe, based on her results. She said the test was easy and she's not the type to make careless mistakes. We argued with the advisor and they finally "let"her go into the non credit 094 course instead. She was bored to tears and easily scored 100. She then figured out a way to bypass pre-requs and took pre-calc for math majors scoring an A with nothing lower than a 98 on the tests. She continued to take the higher courses and started tutoring in math for the school after that first pre-calc.

Another dc who stinks at math placed immediately into pre-calc. They wouldn't let us see the test results for either child and no amount of talking to advisers made a difference. Other hsing moms in our group have had the same thing happen.

 

I highly doubt that that cc is using the Accuplacer. With that, it's all computer graded and the students are given their results immediately. I've never heard of problems with that test. Sounds like your cc is just doing their own thing and probably trying to get people to take classes they don't need. The head of the math department might be helpful for accurate placement testing in that situation. What a shame they had her waste time in that class, but good for her for rising above it all!

 

Creekland, that is truly disturbing, both the results and the school's take on it.

[Karen in CO]

I can see that. The year that my ds was in public high school, he had a first year math teacher that had trouble controlling the class. They covered less than a third of the math book in honor's geometry, but he received an A in the class. He didn't learn anything other than how chaos can frazzle a young teacher. I could see how kids from his very good school would have awful scores on Accuplacer.

 

The dean of the charter middle school that my older dd is going to next year is requiring math placement tests and offering summer math labs to all of the incoming 6th graders because they've found that more than 30% of her incoming 6th graders are at least 2 years behind in math. I don't know how kids get to sixth grade without knowing double digit multiplication, but I do know that those kids will all be in remedial math classes in college.

[Mandy in TN]

As my youngest was signing up for a community college class he's going to take next year through our school I heard the following VERY disturbing statistic:

 

Only 30% of our TOP high school students can pass the PLACEMENT test in math to take cc classes early. The math option they have (placing into) is College Algebra - essentially part of a typical Pre-Calc program - that is often considered remedial math with no credit given at many upper level colleges.

 

Only our top of the top kids try for these classes (and take the placement test). They have already completed (or close to it) our math sequence when they take the test.

 

And our school sees nothing wrong with this. It's the placement test that's difficult.

 

:banghead:

Interesting statistics. I wonder how those stats would look in TN.

 

Our math tutor teaches honors Alg2 at a public high school and tells me horror stories about how unprepared the students are. Many of the kids don't want to be there and don't take any responsibility for their education. This doesn't surprise me. Most teenagers, even homeschoolers, don't understand the value of education, but it is shocking how few parents are at all involved. The teachers have virtually no authority in their classrooms. The kids take advantage of this and the parents don't think it is their responsibility to do anything. Then, the teachers are required and/ or pressured to pass x-number of students. It is just a recipe for disaster.

 

I know some really bright teens in public school, but when I talk to them about their classes I am glad that I am not one of their high school teachers!

Mandy

 

ETA: Our CC requires a 19 on the math section of the ACT in order to enroll in College Alg.

Edited May 12, 2012 by Mandy in TN

[Barbara H]

Sadly I would say this is a very typical situation. It is not really that uncommon to find students entering cc needing remediation in multiple core subjects (math, reading, English) - sometimes placing several course levels below college algebra.

 

Having worked with students at this level I really don't think the problem is inaccurate testing. There are a lot of students who are graduating high school, often with fairly decent grades, but are totally unprepared to do college level work. Often in college they are placed in required courses that do not count toward a degree, but still need to be paid for. This leads to students exceeding their available financial aid credits before they complete their Associate's, and then if they are able to make it go on to a Bachelor's program they run out of financial aid eligibility before they finish that degree too.

[krstbrwn]

Our cc requires a 19, too. My child had that and was able to take College Algebra as a junior in hs. She has decided to go to University of Memphis, and they require all of their entering freshmen to take a placement test through ALEKS before they can enroll in a math class. No matter what their ACT score is. I called and spoke with someone at the school, and they said they were beginning this because so many of their students were failing the math courses. They will place you in whatever math course they feel is appropriate to your skills. Then, that counts as your math credit. For instance, if my daughter was going into business, she would need to take calculus. If she did not place into calculus, they would put her into an alternative course which would count as her calculus requirement. My concern about this was that calculus is necessary for statistics, how could she pass the statistics if she didn't get the calculus she needed? Fortunately for us, she has chosen a degree which only requires College Algebra, and the one she took will transfer.

 

When my daughter took the college algebra class, she pretty much tutored the class. There were upper classmen who had taken it more than once. The level of skills some students are graduating with is pretty scary.

Edited May 12, 2012 by krstbrwn

[daveswife]

This is really sad. My friend's son used TT Alg 1, Geometry, and Alg 2, and placed into College Algebra at HACC (I assume this is the school you're talking about). She was very worried that he'd test remedial, since TT doesn't have the best reputation, her son was only an okay math student in other curricula (but an A student with TT), and also because he'd opted not to do a math course his senior year. She now sings the praises of Teaching Textbooks to anyone who has a struggling math student (she's a homeschool evaluator/former public school teacher).

Edited May 12, 2012 by daveswife

[Murphy101]

Ours requires a 19 as well.

 

Which was both a relief and frustration to me bc I really don't think a 19 is good enough to have good odds of getting through college algebra?

[creekland]

It might be the nature of the CC tests. I've had a few take the test and the results seemed almost random. One dd who took cc courses at 17 had done math through Saxon Advanced Math and scored high 600s on the SAT was told she placed in a non credit remedial type course, 087 I believe, based on her results. She said the test was easy and she's not the type to make careless mistakes. We argued with the advisor and they finally "let"her go into the non credit 094 course instead. She was bored to tears and easily scored 100. She then figured out a way to bypass pre-requs and took pre-calc for math majors scoring an A with nothing lower than a 98 on the tests. She continued to take the higher courses and started tutoring in math for the school after that first pre-calc.

Another dc who stinks at math placed immediately into pre-calc. They wouldn't let us see the test results for either child and no amount of talking to advisers made a difference. Other hsing moms in our group have had the same thing happen.

 

It's not that here. Our cc placement test is on computer and computer graded with results given back to the students. I'm wondering with yours if there's a malfunctioning computer that some students get?

 

These kids have also already passed pre-calc as per what our school uses. They are trying to test into College Alg and/or Calc.

 

I can see that. The year that my ds was in public high school, he had a first year math teacher that had trouble controlling the class. They covered less than a third of the math book in honor's geometry, but he received an A in the class. He didn't learn anything other than how chaos can frazzle a young teacher. I could see how kids from his very good school would have awful scores on Accuplacer.

 

Here it's a combo of the curriculum we use and some teachers who don't do much. I'd give more blame to the curriculum. We're updating it next year with the same publisher (CPM Math). I'm REALLY hopeful it is better, but time will tell. I haven't looked at the new books yet.

 

Sadly I would say this is a very typical situation. It is not really that uncommon to find students entering cc needing remediation in multiple core subjects (math, reading, English) - sometimes placing several course levels below college algebra.

 

Having worked with students at this level I really don't think the problem is inaccurate testing. There are a lot of students who are graduating high school, often with fairly decent grades, but are totally unprepared to do college level work.

 

:iagree: And yes, our school is just under average for the state, so there are plenty of other schools like mine. It's frustrating to me.

 

yep. At our school we graduate around 200. About 100 of them or so take either ACT, SAT or THEA. 50 percent of them have test scores that make them take remedial classes. So basically only 25 percent of the school scores well enough on the tests so they don't have to take remedial classes. Hearing honors kids talk, they are estatic if they score over 1800 on the SAT. They consider that a very good score. These are the ones in the top 20 of the school...

 

I'm not saying 30% of our school passed the placement test. This is 30% of our top kids only - those who have already gone through Pre-Calc (and passed) and who want to dual enroll in math as a junior or senior. These kids have their eyes set on 4 year schools at this stage. We have 300 in an average graduating class. I'd suspect only about 50 or so even sign up to take this test. Then only 30% test into being ready for College Algebra (which SHOULD be a repeat of their Pre-Calc, but isn't).

 

I agree at our school a 1600+ (all three sections) of the SAT is considered really good even for top 10% kids.

 

This is really sad. My friend's son used TT Alg 1, Geometry, and Alg 2, and placed into College Algebra at HACC (I assume this is the school you're talking about). She was very worried that he'd test remedial, since TT doesn't have the best reputation, her son was only an okay math student in other curricula (but an A student with TT), and also because he'd opted not to do a math course his senior year. She now sings the praises of Teaching Textbooks to anyone who has a struggling math student (she's a homeschool evaluator/former public school teacher).

 

I love TT too. Both my older two tested into Calc easily after completing TT Pre-Calc. And yes, it's the HACC placement test I'm talking about that only 30% of our ps kids who opt to take it pass - to get into College Alg (akin to TT Pre-Calc).

[Chris in VA]

Well, ds' experience with Accuplacer (I think that's the name) used at CC was terrible.

 

I believe you can miss 3 in a row, only. Then the test shuts down. That's it--that's where you place.

 

So, if you have any holes in your learning, or even if you have one wrong and two careless mistakes, that's IT.

 

He took precalc in school, did very well, but missed 3 on the CC placement test and was placed in Algebra. ALGEBRA! The kid could do most algebra in his sleep.

 

So, maybe it's a combination of things, but I hate the Accuplacer.

[Dana]

Well, ds' experience with Accuplacer (I think that's the name) used at CC was terrible.

 

I believe you can miss 3 in a row, only. Then the test shuts down. That's it--that's where you place.

 

So, if you have any holes in your learning, or even if you have one wrong and two careless mistakes, that's IT.

 

He took precalc in school, did very well, but missed 3 on the CC placement test and was placed in Algebra. ALGEBRA! The kid could do most algebra in his sleep.

 

So, maybe it's a combination of things, but I hate the Accuplacer.

 

We use the COMPASS (I believe). However, because of situations like this, we have exemption exams the first 3 days of classes so students who think they've been misplaced can take the final exam for the course & if they pass, register for the next course.

 

I find that in the algebra courses I have taught, I have a very large number of students who think they know the material because they've seen it before but who really don't know it. That's a very frustrating attitude to fight with. (Not saying that was your situation - and I like students to be placed correctly and move ahead if they are ready.)

 

I see a number of students who are straight out of high school and who place into our lowest math courses. It's very frustrating.

[creekland]

Few of the students from our ps can test out of college algebra.

 

This is a test to place IN to College Alg, not out of it. I doubt any could test out of it (without having the class first).

 

 

I find that in the algebra courses I have taught, I have a very large number of students who think they know the material because they've seen it before but who really don't know it. That's a very frustrating attitude to fight with. (Not saying that was your situation - and I like students to be placed correctly and move ahead if they are ready.)

 

I see a number of students who are straight out of high school and who place into our lowest math courses. It's very frustrating.

 

:iagree: And it's the frustration I feel seeing it happen at our school. The kids are taking the classes they need, often getting great grades, yet actually learning little.

[Dana]

:iagree: And it's the frustration I feel seeing it happen at our school. The kids are taking the classes they need, often getting great grades, yet actually learning little.

 

I have to convince my students that they WILL fail my course if they don't meet the requirements. There is no magic extra credit at the end of the semester. The final exam won't pull up your grade to a passing grade if you are going into it with an average of 50% (and the idea that you could score high enough on the final to pass if you have a 50% average is pretty ludicrous).

 

I think the cc and remedial courses are essential for students.

There are some students who really stand out to me: a WWII vet who was a retired history teacher but wanted to learn math, a woman who was rebuilding her life after escaping an abusive marriage... I'm honored to be able to help people meet their goals and fill in gaps in their education. This can absolutely include students straight out from high school - but it shouldn't! I'd love to see a lawsuit from a student against their high school for graduating them when they shouldn't have.

 

I have no patience with the students who think that by paying for a course they deserve a passing grade. And it's frustrating to fight against that sense of entitlement and expectations from high school that attendance is enough to pass. Thankfully I am supported at my cc and don't get those discussions about my pass rate. Some other schools have issues with that.

[G5052]

:iagree: And it's the frustration I feel seeing it happen at our school. The kids are taking the classes they need, often getting great grades, yet actually learning little.

 

I can't count how many of the students in my college classes have complained about how little was expected in high school, and how they thought that they were college material with no concerns, and then they hit college and end up in remedial classes and tanking in the few college classes they qualify for. There's a lot of tension in my state between the K-12 schools and higher education because the colleges don't want to drop their expectations (my state has quite a few nationally-ranked public universities) and the K-12 schools don't want to change the way they're doing things.

[butterflymommy]

In my city 75% of high school graduates need remedial math & reading instruction when entering city colleges. Including kids from the "top" high schools.

[mom31257]

I'm not surprised at all. I was buying tickets at a local theater show and the price was $13 for the two tickets. I gave the girl (probably 13-14 years old) a twenty dollar bill and she couldn't figure out what change to give me.

 

I was speaking with a high school student who was in the highest level AP math class for which a 9th grader could qualify. I was advising the mom because she was considering homeschooling. I showed the girl the curriculum map and asked her if the class was following it. All she had to know was if she had covered circles and probability thus far in that quarter. She had no clue. How can you be in an AP math class and not know if you've worked with circles and probability?

[G5052]

I have to convince my students that they WILL fail my course if they don't meet the requirements. There is no magic extra credit at the end of the semester. The final exam won't pull up your grade to a passing grade if you are going into it with an average of 50% (and the idea that you could score high enough on the final to pass if you have a 50% average is pretty ludicrous).

 

I think the cc and remedial courses are essential for students.

There are some students who really stand out to me: a WWII vet who was a retired history teacher but wanted to learn math, a woman who was rebuilding her life after escaping an abusive marriage... I'm honored to be able to help people meet their goals and fill in gaps in their education. This can absolutely include students straight out from high school - but it shouldn't! I'd love to see a lawsuit from a student against their high school for graduating them when they shouldn't have.

 

I have no patience with the students who think that by paying for a course they deserve a passing grade. And it's frustrating to fight against that sense of entitlement and expectations from high school that attendance is enough to pass. Thankfully I am supported at my cc and don't get those discussions about my pass rate. Some other schools have issues with that.

 

I just turned in semester grades last week, and almost half of my students earned an "F." The majority of them stopped attending, but I had several take the last exam who had been to almost every class. I've never been dinged on that.

 

And yes, they always beg for extra credit, open book exams, etc. etc. A wise colleague of mine suggested putting the words "no late credit" on every assignment made to drill in that you are not going to yield, and another suggested offering an extra credit assignment at the end so that the complaints have an answer, but making it difficult so that it is truly a meaningful extra credit assignment that only a few will ever complete. In the three semesters since I did the extra credit that way, only one actually did it!

[creekland]

Well, 2nd dd took it to place OUT of college alg, into calc. Which she did, after going through Saxon Adv Math.

 

I agree that the test can be used to place into Calc (my guys used it for that too). I was just referring to the 30% pass rate at my school. Those kids were using it to test IN to College Alg after having completed through Pre-Calc at our school (with good grades). Sorry for the confusion. (It's easy to know what we mean when we type - not so easy when one just reads the words...)

[Teachin'Mine]

I think what also adds to the confusion is that the Accuplacer has two math scores - one for Elementary Algebra and one for College Math.