Better Late Than Early -- What do you think?

[Spock]

Yes. All three of my girls are early, avid readers, too. My oldest is very myopic, so that's why that particular comment on the Moores' website stood out to me.

 

Do you think your MIL is correct in her assessment? What does she base this on?

 

I have 4 children, 2 of whom wear glasses for nearsightedness.

 

My oldest began sounding out words at 3.5yo, and was reading an hour at a time by 4.5. He read quite a bit as a child, though he slowed down in his early teens. He has perfect eyesight.

 

My second began reading at about the same age, and read about the same amount. He has mild nearsightedness, and started needing glasses around age 12 (though he refused to wear them until around 16).

 

My 3rd could barely read until she was 7.5 (mild dyslexia). She now reads a good bit. She has moderate to severe nearsightedness, and has had glasses since age 8.

 

My youngest read easily at 5. He reads very little beyond what I make him read for school. He has perfect eyesight.

 

Since the first 3 read about the same amount, and the latest reader has the worst vision, I don't think the link between early reading and vision problems is very strong.

[Colleen in SEVA]

Do you subscribe to this philosophy of education? What do you think of this paragraph, in particular

 

I pretty much believe the exact opposite of their philosophy. :D I provide opportunities for my kids to read at an early age (read: I do not PUSH them to read early, but if they WANT to, I am happy to oblige). I do not have the time, energy, or willingness to read to all of my children until they are 14. How in the world is that even possible?!? My kids have such varied interests!!! I would be doing nothing all day BUT reading to them.

 

My oldest was reading Bob Books at 2, easy chapter books at 3, Harry Potter at 4 (my other children were not reading THIS young). He now reads several books per week (I stopped keeping track after second grade, but he read 160 books that school year). He does not have ANY eye trouble at all. Only allowing him to read for 15 minutes a day would be torture for him, and I can NOT see why someone would suggest doing that.

 

For my kids, learning to read early has opened up the entire world to them. Whatever they want to learn about, they can find a book, or look in the encyclopedia, or do an online search. There are not enough hours in the day for me to look all of this up for them, nor would I even want to. Every time they open up an encyclopedia to answer one question they have, they read for several pages which usually leads to all sorts of fun rabbit trails. If they had to rely on ME to look up information for them, they would only have the answer to that one question.

 

I am thankful that we homeschool, and that each family can decide which path is right for them. In my family, we have chosen the "better early than late" path for reading, and I am VERY HAPPY with the results.

[sarah.]

*ETA: Ah yes, I mean Italy-specific... the more personal the better - albeit anecdotal - because you seem to be a LOT around these things if you also teach and work on teacher training*

 

You're on. Be prepared to hand me a virtually paper bag to aid the hyperventilation when I get overwrought :D

 

I'm off to town first and then teach, I'll PM you this evening. Are you OK with separate PMs for separate points, cos otherwise it'll turn into a overwhelming screed.

 

Plus if done piecemeal it will give a chance to say "Ok Sarah! Enough already!".

 

I may have been hit with the "bangs on a bit" stick at birth.

[Spy Car]

*ETA: Ah yes, I mean Italy-specific... the more personal the better - albeit anecdotal - because you seem to be a LOT around these things if you also teach and work on teacher training*

 

You're on. Be prepared to hand me a virtually paper bag to aid the hyperventilation when I get overwrought :D

 

I'm off to town first and then teach, I'll PM you this evening. Are you OK with separate PMs for separate points, cos otherwise it'll turn into a overwhelming screed.

 

Plus if done piecemeal it will give a chance to say "Ok Sarah! Enough already!".

 

I may have been hit with the "bangs on a bit" stick at birth.

 

Are we related? :D

 

Bill

[Ester Maria]

You're on. Be prepared to hand me a virtually paper bag to aid the hyperventilation when I get overwrought :D

 

I'm off to town first and then teach, I'll PM you this evening. Are you OK with separate PMs for separate points, cos otherwise it'll turn into a overwhelming screed.

 

Plus if done piecemeal it will give a chance to say "Ok Sarah! Enough already!".

 

I may have been hit with the "bangs on a bit" stick at birth.

There is a character limit to PMs, you will probably find yourself separating it anyway. I am going to clean my PM box for you, too. :) Feel free to share as much as you wish - and meanwhile I will get emotionally ready, LOL.

 

Thank you so much! I will really appreciate your insights.

Edited March 19, 2012 by Ester Maria
illiteracy

[TranquilMind]

Oh and my only really early reader? Reading by his fourth birthday. Only child so far who can read and doesn't need glasses.

And my early reader has really bad eyesight, as in 20/500. My late reader has great eyesight.

 

You just never know.

[oraetstudia]

And my early reader has really bad eyesight, as in 20/500. My late reader has great eyesight.

 

You just never know.

 

Exactly. Which is why anecdotes do not equal evidence.

[sarah.]

Ester Maria

 

did the first message come through?

 

Cos number two is ready, but I don't want to clog your inbox if you aren't ready for it yet.

[Ester Maria]

Ester Maria

 

did the first message come through?

 

Cos number two is ready, but I don't want to clog your inbox if you aren't ready for it yet.

Yes, it did, reading it now; I made sufficient place, no worries about clogging inbox. :)

[sarah.]

Are we related? :D

 

Bill

 

I regard anybody equally battered by the "tends to bang on" stick to be a relative in spirit if not blood :D

[Sahamamama]

I think that the world we live in is more accessible to those who are strong readers.

 

[snip]

 

I would consider not being able to read at 10, 12 or 14 to either be due to a developmental disability or due to educational neglect.

 

[snip]

 

Kids who don't read until after 3rd grade are at a pretty high risk for some degree of illiteracy as adults.

 

http://kenmentor.com/papers/literacy.htm

 

:iagree:Great post, and thanks for the link.

[Hunter]

I've been told, that merely looking up, long enough to focus on something farther away, every 15 minutes or so, helps a lot. A child reading in a highly distractable environment will automatically be looking up very few minutes to see what is going on. Other than on nasty days, after an hour of reading, it really is best for a child to take a break and work on their fine and gross motor skills. On nasty days, using audio books and having the child do hand work while listening is another good idea. It's all about balance.

[Sahamamama]

I do think the Anglo-American culture of early start is a bit insane. You guys seem to be very hard, in terms of your expectations, on the littles (academic pre-K and K and the like, with a lot of seatwork and forcing certain skills which would have come a lot more naturally to children if you only gave them a year or two more to play and mature), but then somewhere about upper elementary you start erring on the lax side. From middle school onwards, there is little place for comparison, because by that point the educations our children receive are so fundamentally different (and, if you ask me, in Europe it is typically academically superior). And ironically, kids still spend often less TIME in school.

 

So, that kind of "delayed" approach is a very different boat in my eyes than the tone of the article.

 

:iagree:Yes, I agree that the over-emphasis on academics/seatwork for some 2, 3, 4, and 5 year olds in some social circles is ridiculous and perhaps counterproductive. Even though my daughters were reading and excelling at "academic" types of activities at early ages, I consciously made an effort to pull back from an over-focus on those things, because it seemed more important to me for a young life to be BALANCED.

 

I wouldn't call our homeschool focus "academic." Instead, I have lined up various things to do -- including some seatwork, baskets of read alouds, audiobooks, chores, outings, free play, outdoor time, gardening, cooking, sewing, connections with extended family, and even naps -- and we use these components to balance out our lives. Each day will call for certain "pieces," but we never fit it all in. You are right in saying that less would be more if we would wait for certain things to develop in the youngest children. So we in the US might push too much too early, but then....

 

We waste the late elementary/middle school years, IMO. Absolutely waste them. Instead of taking 10-14 year olds on an arduous climb up the mountain, we wallow in the Valley of Enhancing Self-Esteem through Reflective Group Discussions of Pop Culture Novels and Gang/Drug/Violence Awareness Seminars. :tongue_smilie:

Edited March 20, 2012 by Sahamamama

[Sahamamama]

:svengo:

 

I need air.

 

:D

 

But seriously, would you be interesting in PMing me with where did you find academic deficiencies so far? I am interested in whether we have the same perception.

 

 

:lol: I thought those were fighting words. LOL.

[Paisley Hedgehog]

nm

[Spy Car]

I regard anybody equally battered by the "tends to bang on" stick to be a relative in spirit if not blood :D

 

I am Anglo-Saxon, so maybe it's blood and spirit? :D

 

Bill

[Sahamamama]

A lot of my opinion has already been shared about not pushing formal academics early unless the child is prepared, but I think the Moores' philosophy on the whole is a bunch of garbage. Not only is it garbage, it is also dangerous.

 

Children are developmentally ready to read at different times. Granted. However, when an extreme delay is evident for no reason relating to intelligence, that is a HUGE red flag that something is going on. Maybe it is nothing, but maybe it is their eyesight or dyslexia or something else that has to be diagnosed so that it can be addressed.

 

I feel pretty strongly about this because I have a friend IRL who is a great fan of the Moores. Her ds has eye problems and other neurological issues, and also, I believe, a severe learning disability. This kid starts high school in the fall and cannot read. But she is still -- after 8 or 9 years of "unschooling" -- happily humming the Moore's tune that he'll read when he's ready. :svengo: It is a tragedy.

 

That is educational neglect. Not a philosophical prerogative of the parent, but neglect. It would not be morally right even if the parent were to "pick up the tab" for this child for the rest of his life -- when he is grown and dependent on others for his living.

 

We all have different ideas about parenting and teaching our children, but who uses a child like a guinea pig in some personal experiment and feels no remorse about it? Shari, you are right, that is a tragedy.

[Pen]

A lot of my opinion has already been shared about not pushing formal academics early unless the child is prepared, but I think the Moores' philosophy on the whole is a bunch of garbage. Not only is it garbage, it is also dangerous.

 

Children are developmentally ready to read at different times. Granted. However, when an extreme delay is evident for no reason relating to intelligence, that is a HUGE red flag that something is going on. Maybe it is nothing, but maybe it is their eyesight or dyslexia or something else that has to be diagnosed so that it can be addressed.

 

I feel pretty strongly about this because I have a friend IRL who is a great fan of the Moores. Her ds has eye problems and other neurological issues, and also, I believe, a severe learning disability. This kid starts high school in the fall and cannot read. But she is still -- after 8 or 9 years of "unschooling" -- happily humming the Moore's tune that he'll read when he's ready. :svengo: It is a tragedy.

 

:iagree:

 

Also, if learning to read does not come super fast and easy to a particular child, then it adds to the difficulties to be facing Bob books level materials when interests are presumably at a much higher level. I saw this with my own child still in single digits of age. It must be rather awful, I would think for a struggling high school student.

 

Will the child you mention be in hs for High school, or go to a bricks and mortar school?

[SunnyDays]

I was finally able to sit and read through this thread!!

 

While it's completely true that children learn to read at different ages, I think any child who hasn't mastered at least a *basic* level by the middle elementary years (3rd-4th grade?) either has an underlying issue or needs serious remediation. If there's a genuine problem (either with sight or learning) there are many ways to address those. It only hurts the child when parents and/or teachers let things get to a point when a 14 year old can't read. You miss out on a LOT of the world when you can't interact with the written word.

 

For the record, my only child read at age 3. So did I. And I doubt either of us could have been stopped, LOL. I'm a bit farsighted, and DS has no known problems.

[SunnyDays]

I regard anybody equally battered by the "tends to bang on" stick to be a relative in spirit if not blood :D

 

Oh, and... hello, sister!! :lol: Bill may be onto something with the Anglo-Saxon bit, LOL...

[sarah.]

Oh, and... hello, sister!! :lol: Bill may be onto something with the Anglo-Saxon bit, LOL...

 

Waves to "family".

 

Although I think I need somebody to hit gently with the antidote rock to the bangs on a bit stick because 3000 (misspelled and oft grammar free) words blurting out as the introduction to Why It Has All Gone Horribly Wrong In the Italian School System....is a bit .... yakky.

 

I am putting it down to years of deeply buried trauma finally making it to the surface.

 

Well that is my excuse and I am sticking to it

[Paisley Hedgehog]

nm

[Haiku]

If your children are early readers, 15 or 20 minutes at a time is enough for children under ages 8 to 10. They can use a kitchen timer.

 

Umm ... yeah.

 

Here's what would happen if I tried to limit my kids' reading to 15-20 minutes: :willy_nilly::boxing_smiley::scared::angry: :crying: :smash:

 

And both my kids have had their eyes examined. No need for glasses.

 

I would not be ok with my kids not knowing how to read at 13. The same as I wouldn't be ok with them not knowing how to feed themselves at 7. Just because they could learn it on their own later doesn't mean there isn't merit to teaching it to them earlier.

 

Tara

Edited March 20, 2012 by TaraTheLiberator

[Sahamamama]

Waves to "family".

 

Although I think I need somebody to hit gently with the antidote rock to the bangs on a bit stick because 3000 (misspelled and oft grammar free) words blurting out as the introduction to Why It Has All Gone Horribly Wrong In the Italian School System....is a bit .... yakky.

 

:lol::lol::lol: I, too, had "insomnia" ;) last night, and read all three horribly formatted posts. Wow, don't you just hate Blogger? LOL.

 

I am putting it down to years of deeply buried trauma finally making it to the surface.

 

Yes, I was thinking the whole time, "Someone is going to smack her son, someone is going to tape him to a chair." As scarred as you both must be, you really had a great Italian school experience. Amazing, isn't it?

 

Well that is my excuse and I am sticking to it

 

Thanks for the feedback, and all that banging on a bit.

[Sahamamama]

I would not be ok with my kids not knowing how to read at 13. The same as I wouldn't be ok with them not knowing how to feed themselves at 7. Just because they could learn it on their own later doesn't mean there isn't merit to teaching it to them earlier.

 

Tara

 

 

Just to clarify, in post 75, Tara is quoting another quote from my original post. I'm definitely not saying that 10-15 minutes is fine for a 10 year old.

 

Tara, I agree with you. Not knowing how to read at a certain age is akin to not knowing how to do other tasks of independence and maturation.

 

Why hold a child back by not teaching how?

[Haiku]

This kid starts high school in the fall and cannot read.

 

How can a kid start high school if he can't read? How can a child do high school level work if he can't read? How can a child learn high school level material if he can't read?

 

I think your friend is living in a fantasy world. Her son isn't starting high school. He's merely high school aged.

 

Tara

[rockermom]

I'd prefer to be unconscious than to discuss this carp :D

 

Bill

 

You're married to Sahamamama??? ;)

[Sahamamama]

You're married to Sahamamama??? ;)

 

:svengo:

 

 

I don't think eHarmony would have made that match. Unless there was a great, big bug in the system.

 

 

 

(Love ya, Bill).

 

 

 

As it is, I am very happy with the match eHarmony DID make (not Bill), even though the man sleeps at the slightest lack of movement. He has a no-motion sensor that flips the switch to the sleep setting -- standing, sitting, or lying down.

 

 

We call it "Sleep On Demand." Drives me nuts, actually.

Edited March 20, 2012 by Sahamamama

[sarah.]

Yes, I was thinking the whole time, "Someone is going to smack her son, someone is going to tape him to a chair." As scarred as you both must be, you really had a great Italian school experience. Amazing, isn't it?

 

Yes. And terrifying.

 

Especially in light of the news this morning.(google translate will give you the gist)

 

http://milano.repubblica.it/cronaca/2012/03/20/news/schiaffeggia_alunni_di_terza_elementare_arrestata_maestra_nel_bresciano-31868939/

 

(headline - teacher arrested for slapping about third grade elementary kids)

 

This case comes right after after a very similar case at the other of the counrty just a few weeks ago ......

 

nb This is the actual hidden camera that produced footage used to make the case. It contains images of children being slapped, having their ears and hair yanked. So don't watch if you think it is going to upset you.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watchv=nYVk3qnC5HQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player

 

I am actually cheered by both cases. Not cos I am evil and cold hearted, but the fact that two cases so close together both feature hard evidence seems to suggest that the police are being more pro active about gaining evidence via hidden cameras. That willingness is going to make a tremendous difference to an awful lot of smallies.

 

There must have been some curbing of the unions' powers via new laws to have managed to procure the right to secretly film a classroom without strikes breaking put all over the place.

 

With any luck the worst offenders will be starting to become more leery about getting physical at least, for fear of hidden eyes. Then we can tackle the degree of verbal violence. And when that is sorted we can finally address teaching standards.

 

Hopefully before I die of old age.:)

[Ester Maria]

"Spiacenti, impossibile trovare la pagina che hai richiesto. Prova a cercare qualcos'altro."

 

Is that Youtube link working or somebody removed it, like, this second?

[sarah.]

"Spiacenti, impossibile trovare la pagina che hai richiesto. Prova a cercare qualcos'altro."

 

Is that Youtube link working or somebody removed it, like, this second?

 

still working for me, might be becuase I'm taking the link on my ipad

 

I'll try it again...

 

 

 

if that doesn't work try this google search results page, brings up loads of copies

 

http://www.google.it/search?q=meastra+arrestata+Vibo+Valentia+youtube&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari#hl=en&client=safari&tbo=d&sa=X&ei=CY1oT4W1HqH64QSSjv2fCQ&ved=0CAgQvwUoAQ&q=maestra+arrestata+Vibo+Valentia+youtube&spell=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=5109779cccad455e&biw=1024&bih=672

 

that is HUGE!

 

maybe try "maestra arrestata Vibo Valentia youtube" in google if all my links fail?

[Ester Maria]

still working for me, might be becuase I'm taking the link on my ipad

 

I'll try it again...

 

 

This one worked. Thanks.

[Ester Maria]

Watch

. "Di solito nella scuola può succedere agli insegnanti di strattonare qualche bambino, ma ciò succede perché magari si bisticciano o non stanno attenti, poi in classi numerose - di 26, 28 alunni - non è facile per un docente."

 

This is better than I expected!

I expected the usual "noi, se la maestra ti dava uno schiaffo a scuola, la mamma te ne dava due a casa", but I see they have changed the rhetoric. Now it is that it is difficult to do your job ("non è facile per un docente") without striking somebody now and then (beh, "può succedere"), because children act like children are developmentally known to ("si bisticciano, non stanno attenti").

[sarah.]

I've heard the "and mum would give me two" on numerous occasions even today. Tends to be from people my age or older though.

 

But I think the pendulum is swinging hard away from the old school of thought amoung the mums in their thirties or younger. AP has been popularised, so many of us have just the one kid and so the PFB phenomnon is getting more of a foothold. Slapping your kid in public is far less common than it used to be etc.

 

Communications have changed so much since broadband became affordable. SKY Italia becoming so common and its lifestyle programmes dubbed into Italian or redone in Italy (SOS Tata for example, is Italian flavoured Nanny 911) so all in all there has been such a massive change leading to exposure to a huge range of opinions that challenge, if not drown out, the perspective of the villiage (or quarter) and that probably plays a significant role is some the recent sea changes.

 

 

Another case just came on the news, (vile pedophile music teacher this time) re a school just outside Milan. Hidden camera again.

 

Something is afoot. Three hidden cameras in almost as many weeks.

 

And I think I just a comment peice from one of the broadsheets calling for cameras in all classrooms. That I have to read, especially the comments. Just as soon as I have had a nap.

[sarah.]

Well I'm not sure how well this suggestion will go down with the unions. Actually I am. I predict people swelling like enraged toads and spluttering wildly.

 

It won't happen, but I can't remember ever having seen it suggest quite so seriously before now.

 

Osservatorio minori: «Telecamere in classe e test psicologici per gli insegnanti»

 

"Cameras in the classroom and physcological tests for teachers"

 

http://brescia.corriere.it/brescia/notizie/cronaca/12_marzo_20/telecamere-2003758357948.shtml

 

You know how I said last night that I don't have much hope of real change.

 

Am I allowed to change my mind in light of the (slightly freaky coincidence) of all that has cropped up media wise today ?

[Ester Maria]

.

Edited March 20, 2012 by Ester Maria
too personal

[TwoToSchool]

This sounds a bit far fetched. Here's a problem I see...If a child learns to read at 10-14 yrs of age, how does this child learn well in other areas. I suppose someone 'unschooling' their child would have ways of teaching effectively, but for a child learning in a more traditional way...wouldn't this be difficult to learn the other parts of grammar, spelling. writing...even history?

[garddwr]

Yes. And terrifying.

 

Especially in light of the news this morning.(google translate will give you the gist)

 

http://milano.repubblica.it/cronaca/2012/03/20/news/schiaffeggia_alunni_di_terza_elementare_arrestata_maestra_nel_bresciano-31868939/

 

(headline - teacher arrested for slapping about third grade elementary kids)

 

 

 

I attended school in France during my middle school/junior high years. I remember the assistant principle slapping a boy in the hallway...

[Sahamamama]

Yes. And terrifying.

 

Especially in light of the news this morning.(google translate will give you the gist)

 

Yes, I translated it. Some gist. Do these sick people really just get shuffled? Amazing. It's truly a wonder that more parents are not pulling out their children to homeschool, as you have done. "Dive pants and underwear" in order to humiliate whomever had soiled the toilet. That was the translation. :tongue_smilie:

 

http://milano.repubblica.it/cronaca/2012/03/20/news/schiaffeggia_alunni_di_terza_elementare_arrestata_maestra_nel_bresciano-31868939/

 

(headline - teacher arrested for slapping about third grade elementary kids)

 

This case comes right after after a very similar case at the other of the counrty just a few weeks ago ......

 

nb This is the actual hidden camera that produced footage used to make the case. It contains images of children being slapped, having their ears and hair yanked. So don't watch if you think it is going to upset you.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watchv=nYVk3qnC5HQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player

 

Tried the link, it didn't work for me.

 

I am actually cheered by both cases. Not cos I am evil and cold hearted, but the fact that two cases so close together both feature hard evidence seems to suggest that the police are being more pro active about gaining evidence via hidden cameras. That willingness is going to make a tremendous difference to an awful lot of smallies.

 

There must have been some curbing of the unions' powers via new laws to have managed to procure the right to secretly film a classroom without strikes breaking put all over the place.

 

With any luck the worst offenders will be starting to become more leery about getting physical at least, for fear of hidden eyes. Then we can tackle the degree of verbal violence. And when that is sorted we can finally address teaching standards.

 

Hopefully before I die of old age.:)

.

[sarah.]

Yes, I translated it. Some gist. Do these sick people really just get shuffled? Amazing. It's truly a wonder that more parents are not pulling out their children to homeschool, as you have done. "Dive pants and underwear" in order to humiliate whomever had soiled the toilet. That was the translation

 

 

Shuffling happens when there is enough opposition from parents to make life really uncomfortable for either the protagonist or the director. Or when all hell breaks loose and the police get involved.

 

Since 2006 anybody being investigated for a serious crime is not supposed to be allowed to work in a school while the investigation is ongoing. .

 

However in the "dive pants" case the woman had actually been convicted of extortion with threats of violence towards minors as an aggravating factor while working in a school, and BEFORE being shuffled to the school where she got arrested for the "dive pants" incident.

 

So either the law only covers being investigated, rather than found guilty, or somebody screwed up and shuffled her instead pushing forward for dismissal.

 

Possibly the discrepancy is because she is not a teacher, but a bidella (sort of cleaner, door answerer, photocopier).

 

In the Milan "tongue plus scissors" case the support teacher declared her intension to return to the classroom post conviction. Again, maybe this is possible because she was convicted as a support teacher, not an actual teacher.

 

(In English)

 

http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/01/09/us-italy-tongue-idUSB21371720080109

 

And again in this case (see extract below) that ended with a conviction, a return to the school and then a shuffle, the protagonist was the school director, NOT a teacher, who first returned to his job post conviction and then got shuffled to an admin position (being a director IS an admin position, so perhaps what they mean is he was moved to the local education authority rather than working in an admin capacity in a school?)

 

-----

extract from

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/4627232.stm

 

 

In Italy there is no national register of sex offenders but criminal record checks are carried out on teachers applying for new posts.

 

Every applicant must supply a sworn affidavit that they have a clean record.

 

The Ministry of Public Instruction says that since 2001, 160,000 teachers have been employed in Italy and every application checked against police records.

 

They point out that almost all teachers in junior schools here in Italy are women, which might explain why there is a low incidence of abuse in schools.

 

The ministry said it was not aware of any case where a known sex offender had been employed.

 

But Alberto Gianinni from the Catholic Teachers Association (ADC) questions whether the checks are rigorous enough. "I don't think abuse in schools is widespread," he said, "But it most definitely exists.

 

"And I am not entirely convinced," he adds, "that every application is checked as thoroughly as it could be."

 

Mr Giannini has called for tighter guidelines in Italy on the employment of people working with young children.

 

He points to his own experience as proof that things can and do go wrong.

 

"At my son's school in Milan," he said "The director was accused of abusing 13 children. He was suspended on full pay and later found guilty.

 

"But despite his conviction he was allowed to stay at the school - and was later put into an administrative position."

 

--------

 

 

Teachers get shuffled by and large because it is either move them, or keep them in the same place if they have a permanent contract. Dismissal is very very very hard to achieve.

 

 

Some directors are more "persuasive" than others. A case in Ferrara that happened soon after the "dive the underwear" one, was an ele. teacher who ordered a six year old to strip and then had his class mates beat him up as a group.

 

In Italian

http://www.corriere.it/cronache/10_marzo_26/violenze-asilo-ferrara_ae9fd736-38c6-11df-97c8-00144f02aabe.shtml

 

She resigned immediately, which was a highly unusual feature of the case. I remember reading the statement from her director and it was fairly evident that he was behind her resignation, cos he came across as rather...determined.

 

These are the all the extreme newsworthy cases of course. The vast majority of people shuffled are just rubbish teachers. Some get shuffled from small village schools to the main local school so they can be kept an eye on by the director.

 

Some move up the next locality so one director doesn't get lumbered with them for their entire teaching career. And there is a sense that it is only fair to shunt them around a lot so one set of kids doesn't get lumbered with them long term.

 

It's enough of an issue that if a parent is unloading about their "new teacher woes" I tend to advise them to ask around and find out where the teacher was before, and before that, and find out if there were any known shadows looming if it looks like they have gone through quite a few schools. Teething problems happen with new teachers and patience while everybody gets used to each other helps, but it isn't a bad idea to get a sense of what might be behind their sudden appearance, so you are forewarned and forearmed.

 

I don't think home ed will ever be hugely popular here. The two "growth areas" are the highly religious, who are well catered for in the main school wise. The unshcoolers, who are hidebound by the annual testing regulations so are often better off in alternative schools where they have more freedom programme wise.

 

Both parents tend to work full time here, the concept of SAHM is not really the big deal it is elsewhere. Daycare and after school care is often provided by grandparents...it's just not really a set up that lends itself well to home ed unless, like me, you work from home. But few do.

 

I think it will grow a bit by being the last resort for some parents who happen to hear of the concept and turn to it to flee the school system in a similar way that it was for me. However as soon as it reaches any kind of significant numbers I wouldn't be surprised if the regulations were drastically tightened in order to stamp down uptake to just the original few "odd balls".

[Ester Maria]

way tmi

Edited March 22, 2012 by Ester Maria

[sarah.]

Ester, since you deleted your message I've gone through and stripped quotes, But I do want to respond. I considered sending this privately in light of your deleted post, but on reflection I don't want to do it in private becuase to a certain extent that feels like I'm trying to "not wash dirty linen in public".

 

We Europeans make free with our criticisms of American systems and culture publicly.

 

Americans often publicly reference perceived European-wide "betterness" when being self critical.

 

I think perhaps a certain level of Euro smuggyknickers and "glossing over" has evolved thanks to this dynamic, which allows us to have something of a not very accurate assessment of what goes well here compared to the States, and what does not.

 

We may be critical of our own systems to some degree, but it does tend to be done in the context of "but at least we're not America". I think we Euro-peeps lean towards a tendency for closed door discussions of the nuts and bolts of specific European systems that are demonstrably unable to produce even average results, that trail behind America in the rankings, and IMO that only adds to our inability to face head on what needs to be done to give OUR kids a better chance of average or above average educational attainment.

 

-----

 

The function of the newsworthy cases is not try and demonstrate that teachers who get physical are ubiquitous here. As stated, no member of staff has ever laid a finger on my child, he is 11 years old and started Nido at 2. He's had lots of teachers, if getting clumped was an unavoidable feature of Italian schools I wouldn't be able to say that.

 

The underlining specific notable cases is to demonstrate the difficulty the system has in dealing even with the extreme cases of misconduct in terms of pastoral standards and how the mechanisms that stifle action in the extreme cases leave the system virtually incapable of raising professional standards in schools. Not least because compared to children being forced to wear "Ass Ears" a teacher confusing lip service with teaching is pretty small potatoes when organising your school director's desk into high priority for parental placation and "the round filing cabinet".

 

The impotency to take on even the black and white cases has a knock on effect as the people charged with running the show view and describe themselves as "handcuffed" and unable to act in a proactive manner when the first symptoms of less serious, but still unlawful, behaviour appear. In turn this sensation of powerlessness to take action renders TPTB utterly ineffective when faced with low professional standards in terms of actual teaching. There is nothing like having to shuffle (rather than fire) a slap happy teacher to make a director rather disinclined to do much more than shrug when faced with a teacher who simply doesn't do much teaching.

 

Laws are in place that underline a long standing rejection of certain behaviours towards small people. Corporal punishment in schools was first outlawed here in 1928. In '96 a law was passed that aimed to prioritise the rights of the child not to be hit over the parents right to discipline. That is not the hallmark of a backwards country considering how others created their similar laws far later(UK), if at all (USA). Far from it.

 

 

The specific issue with our school system that has reasonable student/teacher ratios, relatively high per child investment (if you exclude university funding per student from the equation) but below OCED average outcomes in terms educational attainment has not a lot to do with The Italian Character, or Italian patenting practices IMO and everything to do with politics.

 

The Italian state created, nurtured, enshrined with quasi inalienable rights, a system whereby a worker with a state contract has long been able to expect their employment rights be placed over and above almost any other consideration. In all sectors. Not just education.

 

Given that state schools evolved with that priority automatically included in the package (due to the staff being state employees), it is not that surprising that contractual rights connected to employment override systems and the capacity to raise standards. Be those standards pastoral or academic.

 

The cases I referred to weren't random. What I felt was notable about those cases were how they highlight the issue the system has with managing even the most extreme end of professional misconduct to underline how hard it is to effect change when the issue is professional incompetence.

 

For example..

 

 

The toungue/scissor case, the nasty director, the evil bidella illustrate how even with a conviction in place that clearly demonstrates the capacity to place children at risk in a unlawful manner, a member of staff is not automatically disbarred from working in a school. Their right to employment trumped other considerations.

 

The two cases the day before yesterday and the case last month were notable because of a positive change, the use of hidden cameras as an early step taken. The 2 day before yesterday ones were notable also because they coincided with a clearly preprepared statement from the director of the "Observer of minors" stating that the principle of not putting cameras in all classrooms was correct, but unfortunately that principle had to take a back seat in view of the sheer number of cases they were having to deal with where members of staff in schools were behaving in an unacceptable manner towards children. I doubt that the additional call for regular physiological testing for teachers is because the entity is convinced that manics appear to be given priority when handing out teaching contracts. IMO it is recognition of the "rotten apple" syndrome I described and a desired intent to weed out the minority who contribute to a downward spiral by "pulling down" other member of staff's perception of what is normal and acceptable.

 

The "strip and have class beat up kid" case was notable in that the teacher resigned, instead of being suspended on full pay until the court case was concluded in a few years time, possibly then returning to the classroom.

 

Lots of Italian adults have fond memories of their schooldays. My husband does, my friends do. They often reference said happy school days to demonstrate contrast with what their own children are experiencing in school.

 

I know lots of people who are happy with their child's teachers. I was happy during my son's 2nd year elementary. Had my son begun his school days with those teachers and one not died and the other retired, but instead seen him through primary school, in all likelihood we would not have had this conversation in the first place due to my being somewhat oblivious to the issues because I had never had to face them on a personal level.

 

cont in next post

[sarah.]

cont

 

but these results below don't jibe with millions of Italian parents being *justifiably* happy with their child's school.

 

This is how Italy performs compared to other countries.

 

http://blogs.crikey.com.au/thestump/2010/12/08/australian-education-not-so-bad-at-all-really/ (you need to scroll down to the table and enlarge it)

 

This is the evident contrast between Italian childrens' wellbeing in school versus every other category of their lives in the UNICEF study.

 

http://www.eclectictimes.com/mt-images/misc/child_well_being_table.jpg

 

 

The longer I live here the harder it is to adequately quantify Italian parenting. It was easy in the beginning. But then you form relationships, get to know individuals, end up in the community rather than skirting on the outskirts. A decade and a half fly by and you're aware of such a huge range of shades of grey that it is impossible to describe the whole because anything you come up with is so superficial and you can think of more people who are exceptions to the rule you just made up, than actually fit it.

 

I'm down to just two cultural differences between Italian mums and myself now that work pretty much for almost all of the people, almost all of the time.

 

Colpa d'aria and "bedtime".

 

They believe in the first and I roll my eyeballs and mutter "poor child, forced into a scarf and hat on a lovely spring day" under my breath. I believe in the second and they mutter "poor child, such rigidity and severity!" under their breath.

 

 

You didn't suggest this in your post, but I wanted to assure you that I don't come at this from a point of "expaty" nationalistic point scoring and I'd like to explain my motivations for being highly critical of generous host.

 

I left school in 1984. The UK school system looks vastly different now by all accounts. I then went to teach in Thailand when I was 21, which you can't compare to Italy, it's a different world. Then I came here a few years later, and never left. I've been out of England longer than I was ever in it at this point. This might reveal a profound level of self interest, but to be honest I don't care all that much what the results of other countries, including my own, are.

 

I live here not there, will most likely will die here, hopefully will have a grand baby here who will in all likelihood go to school here. I teach school kids (and their parents) most days and given that I like eating, will probably keep doing that until my memory goes. I get unloaded onto by other parents (because they are my clients, friends, acquaintances and colleagues) about their own current school woes. I send far too much time rebuilding childrens' broken academic self confidence so I can get them back to a point of engaging with their learning and have them let go of assumptions that it is a waste of effort because they are domed to fail. And unless I get the hermit bug that will probably carry on.

 

So all I really care about is the state of play here, because only here affects me today and tomorrow and only schools here are capable of giving the people I care about less irritation, hassle, distress and frustration than they currently do.

 

That's why I'm so invested in the what, how, why of what has gone demonstrable, quantifiably wrong with the school system in Italy. It doesn't come from a expat-itus "grass is greener back home" syndrome. Not least because my sister's husband is an ex state school science teacher and he has not exactly spared me the gory details of why he left the profession.

 

You didn't suggest any of the above in your post. But I also know that it's uncomfortable for me when people criticise the UK within my earshot and I wanted to assure you that this was not a case of just having a pop at the host country for the sake of it, or diminishing it for "expat sport".

 

I think you should seek and listen to other views and opinions, cos it's always a good idea. And I can't guarantee that my vision is perfect, or even correct.

 

But I can promise you I have thought about this issue long and hard.

 

Since my son entered 1st year primary school in 2006 I have had cause to profoundly consider the what, how, why of the demonstrable failings of the Italiansystem. Because that is the year it got painful and personal. The considering takes place frequently enough that my husband has been known to yell "Basta! I want to watch football not help you pour over normativi by translating all the legalese for you AGAIN!".

 

 

My vision will be coloured by my anglo saxonness, but it was also shaped, coloured and refined by literally hundreds of conversations with Italians. Some working in schools, some running them, some with kids in them, sharing years and years of first person experience that confirmed and reflected my own first person experience.

 

Their words, their views, their evidence created the foundation and detail of my conclusions as much as my own did.

 

My conclusion could be summed up in four words.

 

Poor standard of teaching.

 

Which is not a million miles away from the PISA analysis of...

 

Poorly trained staff.

 

Come to think of it I could have saved about six thousand words if I'd stuck to just "poor teaching" in the first place.

 

I blame the "bangs on a bit" stick.:glare:

[Ester Maria]

Oh, Sarah. :grouphug: I am sorry if any of that read as though I was "suggesting" you either do not know what you are talking about or you are extrapolating "random" cases to present a whole. In my eyes you are a de facto Italian, with a child in the system, with an international perspective and having done your research and comparisons, thus more than fully entitled and capable of making some very justified criticism of the system. We live rather far away from each other and I am in a weird place in my life right now, predominately working - mentally and physically - on some other fronts, but if these two were not factors, I might as well enjoy having this conversation in a more intimate atmosphere, when I could say some things which are more difficult to utter when you are faced with an impersonal screen.

 

Regarding the US, I do tend to have conversations majorly critical of it in circles which are predominately American. We could consider these boards to be one such virtual community, even though I have never actually discussed "seriously" the US-specific issues here, as I tend to limit myself to the kind of conversations I would have with a friend in a caffe (i.e. somewhat consciously watered down to a more superficial level - but such is the format of the forum, not allowing for all the distinctions I would draw in a lenghtier and more focused conversation). DH and I do not even vent our US-specific frustrations in front of the children, barring an occasional incident now that they are older and can put things into their own perspective, because we do not feel it is good for them to grow up surrounded with a subtle negativity of constant comparisons between the places and the societies. I tend to be rather wary, IRL (as this is the only place of my online activities of this type), of to whom exactly and to what extent I am going to "bash" the US, because I am afraid to fortify stereotypes, promote thinking in very rigid boxes (both the US and Italy are very diverse worlds within themselves and cannot be represented in a way that it does it justice to somebody who has not experienced it).

 

It is not, IMO, only the question of the panni sporchi che si lavano in famiglia, not airing the dirty laundry in public, but also the question of, often, a genuine impossiblity for somebody who has not experienced some things to grasp it. I have at times voiced criticism of the US, even on here, or satirized vents of the kind I would never allow myself to do in a predominately non-American circle. It may be a paradox in a way, but that is more or less my typical standard modus operandi - praise the good things to those who do not know and cannot understand, criticize the bad things to those who do know and can understand because they have a perspective needed for it. By saying this, I am not trying to imply that your own personal values as to how the criticism is handled need to match mine nor trying to suggest that your criticism is any way "unacceptable", let alone unwelcome, in some circles - because, after all, who am I to determine any of that, and you have a full right to express whatever you feel pertinent to a discussion in whatever way and intensity you feel needed. In that, you have my full support even though I personally would not handle some things the same way. So, I would like that to be very clear. America is, to me, one of the most powerful ideas in history, with an absolutely sublime constitutive document and my own view of what goes wrong in "practice", a history of its genesis which explains much of what I both like and dislike, but the "level" at which I am going to discuss it with those who have not experienced it is typically going to be that of a somewhat reserved respect, trying to bring out the good ideas they have, educationally and otherwise. With Americans, I am going to take an often radically different stance, contrasting my view of what I perceive as system weaknesses against what I know as good from other systems, thus taking the stance of a reserved respect regarding other places more than open criticism of other places. It is not as though I was having double standards, in terms of thinking one is be viewed critically while the other should be immune criticism (though I am not saying you suggest this in your post), but that it seems to me more "proper" to handle the ratio differently in different circles. And again, I am not saying you ought to share my views on this in any way, shape or form - only stating my views on it.

 

I agree with you that the root of these problems is in politics. But Italian politics, and "politics" behind the curtains, is a whole 'nother can of worms. To be perfectly honest, I did not expect our conversation to go into that direction (though I do not mind it per se), as originally I was actually interested not in the problems pertaining to the framework of the social and political organization and the macrostructure of it, but to the problems pertaining to the actual content. I expected, to be blunt, a far less "complex" discussion between us, dealing mostly with the school program / methodical and pedagogical approach differences, rather than with far more complex issues which generate those in the first place and which I am not sure I can comprehend fully well myself.

 

To be honest, I am neither surprised by the PISA results nor do I take them as a very good arbiter of the quality of the school system. There is one Austrian university professor who wrote a book in response to a major public uproar that was caused by the PISA results in Austria and that book sums up pretty much my own view of it and why I do not take PISA into account and why I believe that the quality of an education is "measured" by some entirely different criteria. If you can read German, I recommend it. The book is written to be accessible to wide audiences and it does not have the academic rigor of a "serious" study, but I have found much confirmation for my own ideological bias behind what an education ought to be about in it - and my view tends to contrast drastically with what is typically promoted nowadays.

 

I have the "bangs on a bit" stick too. :tongue_smilie:

[NanceXToo]

While I would never wait as late as 14 or anywhere near it, I do think the Moores offer some perspective that can be helpful to some parents who are inclined to start pushing and getting into a tizzy with their very young children. I don't believe that disinterested three, four, five year olds need to be pushed and forced into academics for example and that it's perfectly okay to wait until 6-7 to teach a child to read if that's when the child is more developmentally ready, interested, and willing and able to sit for reading lessons and such. I think a more gentle, play based and more active 'childhood' before then is perfectly okay. And that if they learn in say 1st grade instead of preschool or Kindergarten (much like many of us did) that isn't going to damage them in any way and could certainly be much less stressful for all involved and may be much easier to do.

[garddwr]

While I would never wait as late as 14 or anywhere near it, I do think the Moores offer some perspective that can be helpful to some parents who are inclined to start pushing and getting into a tizzy with their very young children. I don't believe that disinterested three, four, five year olds need to be pushed and forced into academics for example and that it's perfectly okay to wait until 6-7 to teach a child to read if that's when the child is more developmentally ready, interested, and willing and able to sit for reading lessons and such. I think a more gentle, play based and more active 'childhood' before then is perfectly okay. And that if they learn in say 1st grade instead of preschool or Kindergarten (much like many of us did) that isn't going to damage them in any way and could certainly be much less stressful for all involved and may be much easier to do.

 

I think I first read one of the Moore's books when my oldest was about 3 and I had been reading a lot of "accelerate your homeschool child's education" type materials. Their philosophy combined with several other things I read about that time (including For the Children's Sake by Susan Schaeffer Macauly (sp?) and books by Dr. Jane Healy) helped me decide to sit back and relax and let my child just be a child for awhile longer. I'm personally glad I did. That child is now 8.5 and a voracious reader and enjoying learning. We have gradually increased the academic load and structure over the years, and I think it has worked well.

 

I think the "don't push academics too early" philosophy really spoke to me because it was my mother's philosophy. As far as I can tell, she came by her approach to education entirely independently--she was a teacher before having children, and decided that school was not what young children needed. She kept us home--in what would now likely be called an unschooling environment--until we were 8, then sent us to the local school. In my own family it worked fabulously--we grew up interested in reading, learning, and exploring ideas, and were well prepared to follow our own passions in college and beyond. My oldest sister was accepted to Stanford at age 16, and often laughed that she had applied to that school almost as an afterthought (my parents didn't even remember that she applied there and were surprised when the acceptance letter came in the mail) while many of her classmates had been working towards that specific goal their entire life. Two younger siblings followed her to Stanford, and two attended the Air Force Academy. I can't see any way in which delaying academic study limited my own life or my siblings' lives, on the contrary I feel it helped us be more explorative, self-directed learners. Not all my siblings were late readers, but I was--I honestly couldn't read a word until I was 8 years old. My mom had made several attempts to teach me, but it didn't stick, and she didn't push. I think if she had tried to push I might have learned but I might also have become very frustrated. A few months before she planned to send me to school she handed me a new phonics program with tapes and books and I worked through it on my own--I was ready and motivated. Within months I was reading voraciously. At 9 I was reading Dickens, at 11 my favorite book was Ivanhoe, and at 13 I worked my way through War and Peace. By 15 I was reading Les Miserables in French. I don't personally feel that I missed out on anything by not reading during my early years--those years were rich and full, and I am glad I had them to balance out some of the later years when I did almost nothing but read!

 

I can't say this approach would be best for every child--my experience was only with a particular family, environment, set of genes, set of experiences...for us it worked. I'm confident my own children will not suffer if they don't learn to read by age 5 or 6, or don't start formal math and language arts studies in kindergarten.

[Jenny in GA]

Whoops, messed up a quote, let me try again ...

Edited March 22, 2012 by Jenny in GA
I can't do quotes right

[Jenny in GA]

I do think the Anglo-American culture of early start is a bit insane. You guys seem to be very hard, in terms of your expectations, on the littles (academic pre-K and K and alike, with a lot of seatwork and forcing certain skills which would have come a lot more naturally to children if you only gave them a year or two more to play and mature), but then somewhere about upper elementary you start erring on the lax side. From middle school onwards, there is little place for comparison, because by that point the educations our children receive are so fundamentally different (and, if you ask me, in Europe it is typically academically superior). And ironically, kids still spend often less TIME in school.

 

 

I find this really interesting. Could you please elaborate, especially on the differences in middle school? If kids are spending less time, how is it superior?

[Dmmetler]

For the record, Raymond Moore was a professional educator who studied the academic research and based his recommendations on what he found. If you read his original books School can Wait and Better Late than Early you will find plenty of documentation. It's been a few years since I read his books, but if I recall correctly he did not start out believing that delaying formal academics was best--he came to that conclusion based on the available research. Also, by formal academics I think he was talking mostly about the type of structure found in institutional schooling, he became an early advocate for homeschooling but initially with the expectation that children would stay home for the first few years and eventually attend an institutional school (this is what his own children did). Some of the problems he saw in early academics were I think linked as much to environment as to content.

 

 

FWIW, I had a chance to talk to Jane Healy a few years back (we were both speaking at the same conference, so were at the Speaker's table-talk about feeling out of my league) and her views are much the same-that there is a difference between providing opportunities for the child who is demanding learning and pushing/pressuring a child when they're not yet ready-the former is giving the child what they need, while the latter is not. I was very, very relieved to hear her say that, because at the time I had a 5 yr old who had befriended one of the Sisters from Silver Lake college on the first day of the conference, and was spending every evening learning Latin from several elderly Nuns!

[momtoamiracle]

I find this really interesting. Could you please elaborate, especially on the differences in middle school? If kids are spending less time, how is it superior?

 

 

I would also like to know this!