s/o waiter/waitress tips...rant

[Parrothead]

It may be what that particular manager told you, but this is really not how it works across the board. I've never worked at a restaurant, and my husband has never run a restaurant (almost 20 years!), where they didn't count a large group as a party because they were one family. I don't doubt the manager said that.

 

 

 

You tip out on your bar sales that the bartender needs to make and place on the server pickup station. It might be a bottle of beer or a milkshake or a fancy fruit flavored lemonade. It isn't just alcoholic beverages. Regular fountain beverages that the server brings usually do not count toward that, in my experience.

 

I have never been to a restaurant where there was a tip jar for a bartender, myself. Either I order from the bartender directly and tip her/him directly or I order from the server while sitting at our table, and I don't know what happens to the bartender. Probably the servers tip them out. But someone still has to pour the drinks, and if it's a restaurant with a bar, it's usually the bartender. Then I think yes, they probably would get a small share of the tips from the table. Maybe it's calculated as a percentage of the beverage order from each check--so it would be less from a table that had soda and water and more from a table that ordered beer/wine/liquor? I imagine it varies by restaurant and setup.

Thanks for the info.

 

Maybe I'll go to the envelope system when I go out to dinner. :D One for the bus boy, one for the server, one for the bartender if needed.

[melissel]

Fine then. This manager lied to me. But what he said makes more sense to me than the screwy way it really works. Basically, we (my larger family) will be treated as suspect and not reliable (going to "cheat" on the tip) because of our number. :glare: Nice, guess I know that now. A smaller family can be obnoxious and rowdy and leave a 4% tip. But a larger family who is polite, neat, and well behaved will be automatically assumed "bad" and assigned a tip. :glare: Talk about screwy logic. I think I will ask about this before eating in any more restaurants. We will give our business (and generous tips) to a restaurant who won't discriminate against us upfront and assign negative intent based solely on the fact that we have 6 dc.

 

I think you're misunderstanding. You're not assigned the gratuity because you're a large family. You're assigned the gratuity because you're a "party of 8 or more." They're not going to count you and then quiz you or any other party when you sit down. They add that gratuity for all large groups so they DON'T have to subject you (or themselves) to the inquisition when they seat you. No one is passing judgment on your family size. You just happen to have a family large enough to fall under a catch-all rule.

 

I'm sure there are large families who don't tip, just like there are small families that tip really well, and vice versa. It has nothing at all to do with penalizing you for being procreatively advanced.

[melissel]

Thanks for the info.

 

Maybe I'll go to the envelope system when I go out to dinner. :D One for the bus boy, one for the server, one for the bartender if needed.

 

:lol: Well, that's the whole point of tipping your server well! Then you don't have to deal with all those envelopes :D

[Parrothead]

Joining in late to this....

A dear friend of mine is a waitress at a very expensive, exclusive steak house. She has had earned over $75,000 in a year. She works hard, very hard. However, she wants to be a full time art teacher. She teaches part time now; she is extremely talented and patient and organized - an amazing teacher!!! She can not afford to give up the waitress job to become a broke art teacher. It is sad for her. and really for all of the children who will not be blessed by having her be their teacher.

This says a lot about our society as a whole.

[melissel]

This says a lot about our society as a whole.

 

Yup :(

[Mrs Mungo]

People can be philosophically opposed to the whole structure and set up without being stingy or uncaring.

 

Have you ever lived in a place where tipping is not the norm? The difference in level of service is massive.

 

For heaven's sake, the holier than thou superiority in this thread is beyond icky.

 

A lot of the attitude is in response to the condescending nature of your OP.

[beaners]

Fine then. This manager lied to me. But what he said makes more sense to me than the screwy way it really works. Basically, we (my larger family) will be treated as suspect and not reliable (going to "cheat" on the tip) because of our number. :glare: Nice, guess I know that now. A smaller family can be obnoxious and rowdy and leave a 4% tip. But a larger family who is polite, neat, and well behaved will be automatically assumed "bad" and assigned a tip. :glare: Talk about screwy logic. I think I will ask about this before eating in any more restaurants. We will give our business (and generous tips) to a restaurant who won't discriminate against us upfront and assign negative intent based solely on the fact that we have 6 dc.

 

Whether a group is one family or several unrelated people, the server may need to push tables together for your group. It limits the other tables the server can take at the time, both due to space and due to extra time caring for more people. For some computer systems, the gratuity is automatically added to the check when the server inputs the number of guests. The computer doesn't ask if everyone looks related. Other times the manager needs to put in the gratuity.

 

It isn't a punishment for your family size. It's the reality of providing a service for a larger group of people.

[Tigger]

Fine then. This manager lied to me. But what he said makes more sense to me than the screwy way it really works. Basically, we (my larger family) will be treated as suspect and not reliable (going to "cheat" on the tip) because of our number. :glare: Nice, guess I know that now. A smaller family can be obnoxious and rowdy and leave a 4% tip. But a larger family who is polite, neat, and well behaved will be automatically assumed "bad" and assigned a tip. :glare: Talk about screwy logic. I think I will ask about this before eating in any more restaurants. We will give our business (and generous tips) to a restaurant who won't discriminate against us upfront and assign negative intent based solely on the fact that we have 6 dc.

 

I think it's not because a larger party may be suspect, but because a large party requires more work, takes more time overall, and is likely taking up more table space than a smaller party. Restaurants want to protect the server when they're serving a larger party, I think, so that a larger party will understand the appropriate tip to leave?

 

I've taken issue with the minimum tip on a party of six when one of the six is an infant, in a car seat, on the floor next to me.....I mean really? I left the tip as stated on the bill (honestly planned to leave more, but felt it was crazy to consider an infant, just a few months old, as a person in the party, as if he ate or had any demands on the time and effort of the server) and let the manager know I wasn't pleased about it and would have left a larger tip had they not used the baby to count our party as six instead of five. I don't begrudge any server their tips and I do think we tend to be generous overall - but really, a baby as one of six? Nope, so my tip was what was stated on the bill, no more, no less. The policy the manager enforced, in that case, hurt the server, it didn't help them.

[Ester Maria]

I disagree. This is one area in which I prefer the American way of doing things. Service in Europe is ridiculous. Want another soda or water? Ready to pay your bill? You might actually have to go find your server in the kitchen.

I do not disagree that the customer service in America is MUCH more professional than in Europe. :001_smile:

 

But you have to admit there is something charming about us, too. Things are lot more... spontaneous, by us. :tongue_smilie: The communication between the customer and the servers is somehow more organic. I often feel slightly uncomfortable in the American restaurants because I occasionally feel "harassed" by somebody going out of their way to serve me or keeping an eye on me and my potential needs all the time. I feel like saying, for Heaven's sake, do relax and just leave me alone and get out of my sight for a little while. :lol: Even if that means I will have to wait a little more to get the bill. There is something slightly unnatural and "tense" about many American restaurants, in Europe it is all much more relaxed.

 

This extends to other areas of life, too. Every single American maid we had first had to "unlearn" that extra-eager attitude. I like eagerness and I like fair work, but it makes me uncomfortable when people do not take a break now and then to chill or when they "artificially" constantly make themselves busy. Do not get me wrong, I do not appreciate lazing and incomplete work, but I typically like things to be a bit more relaxed overall. Americans are excellent workers, with excellent work ethic and very high professionalism, but they are typically not relaxed, which makes us Mediterraneans a bit uncomfortable sometimes. We like to sacrifice some strict efficiency if it brings about a more relaxed atmosphere. :tongue_smilie:

 

Unfortunately, most of the top tier European restaurants seem to have switched to the American work ethic in the last decade or so and have become quite "tense" too.

When I go out to eat, eating is secondary - principally I want to chat and socialize. I really could care less about being opened the door or no (DH will do it anyway for me), about being approached the very minute I come or five minutes later, about getting an extra drink NOW or ten minutes later when it is handy for the waiter. Really. I could care less, provided a warm, relaxed atmosphere.

 

I realize that I am weird, yes. :lol:

Edited January 15, 2012 by Ester Maria

[Parrothead]

I think you're misunderstanding. You're not assigned the gratuity because you're a large family. You're assigned the gratuity because you're a "party of 8 or more." They're not going to count you and then quiz you or any other party when you sit down. They add that gratuity for all large groups so they DON'T have to subject you (or themselves) to the inquisition when they seat you. No one is passing judgment on your family size. You just happen to have a family large enough to fall under a catch-all rule.

 

I'm sure there are large families who don't tip, just like there are small families that tip really well, and vice versa. It has nothing at all to do with penalizing you for being procreatively advanced.

I think it does if she and her family are charged a specific percentage on the bill. At that point it isn't a choice to be a large family who doesn't tip. Or who doesn't tip well.

 

The way I took what she said in her OP about this subject was that she got the bill and was charged a specific amount with no alternative but to pay it as part of the total bill. So if her food, drink and tax total was $120 she was required to pay $141.60, not $120 with the option of paying only the $120 or the $120 with another amount for the tip. If her family rule it to tip 17% the restaurant could call the cops for theft is she wanted to pay $140.40.

[beaners]

I think it does if she and her family are charged a specific percentage on the bill. At that point it isn't a choice to be a large family who doesn't tip. Or who doesn't tip well.

 

The way I took what she said in her OP about this subject was that she got the bill and was charged a specific amount with no alternative but to pay it as part of the total bill. So if her food, drink and tax total was $120 she was required to pay $141.60, not $120 with the option of paying only the $120 or the $120 with another amount for the tip. If her family rule it to tip 17% the restaurant could call the cops for theft is she wanted to pay $140.40.

 

Well, the restaurant could try it. It wouldn't work though. Someone else said that it wasn't actually an obligation, which is correct. If you don't want to pay the gratuity, I've never been in a place where you could be held accountable. I think it was a little different for the banquets I worked, because part of the gratuity was in the contract. I never had a problem with that though, since I was usually tipped an extra hundred or so on top of the included gratuity.

[cindergretta]

It is penalizing. That tip is automatically added on to ensure the server doesn't get stiffed on a tip. Period. No one worries if the server gets stiffed by a small family, but they do if it is a large family.

 

My family takes 2 tables so lets add that tip on to make sure the server doesn't' lose out on a tip from another party using the 2nd table. We come in, get served, eat, leave. Another family takes up one table and stays for 2 1/2 hours without ordering anything beyond the initial bill and doesn't get charged a mandatory tip for taking up table space.

 

It is discriminatory. It is assumed that we won't tip the 18%. Eight or more and it is assumed you won't tip enough. That is discriminatory. I can understand when it is a group of teens or several couples, as I explained earlier. It is more work, but the bill is larger, thus the 18% equals more, etc. If it is added on, we will pay only what is added on. If we aren't discriminated against, we tip 20% + rounding up to the next nearest whole dollar.

 

A smaller family can be a lot more work than my family and no one is assigning them a tip.

 

No inquisition needed to see two adults and 6 dc.

 

And for the record, I grew up in Europe. The service was fine. It wasn't awesome, but it was decent. And the service I typically receive here is decent. Some things are better, some are worse.

[Parrothead]

I think it's not because a larger party may be suspect, but because a large party requires more work, takes more time overall, and is likely taking up more table space than a smaller party. Restaurants want to protect the server when they're serving a larger party, I think, so that a larger party will understand the appropriate tip to leave?

 

I've taken issue with the minimum tip on a party of six when one of the six is an infant, in a car seat, on the floor next to me.....I mean really? I left the tip as stated on the bill (honestly planned to leave more, but felt it was crazy to consider an infant, just a few months old, as a person in the party, as if he ate or had any demands on the time and effort of the server) and let the manager know I wasn't pleased about it and would have left a larger tip had they not used the baby to count our party as six instead of five. I don't begrudge any server their tips and I do think we tend to be generous overall - but really, a baby as one of six? Nope, so my tip was what was stated on the bill, no more, no less. The policy the manager enforced, in that case, hurt the server, it didn't help them.

I do think sometimes this type policy hurts the server. Obviously there will always be the cheapskate group, but it has been my experience that the mandatory tip for large party does more damage than good.

 

Not all restaurants follow this policy though. I was out Friday evening as 1 in a party of 23. I ordered a $2 baked potato and a soft drink. My total was $4 and change. I just left a $10 as my portion. As Ester Maria said often it is easier to just leave round numbers.

[melissel]

I think it does if she and her family are charged a specific percentage on the bill. At that point it isn't a choice to be a large family who doesn't tip. Or who doesn't tip well.

 

The way I took what she said in her OP about this subject was that she got the bill and was charged a specific amount with no alternative but to pay it as part of the total bill. So if her food, drink and tax total was $120 she was required to pay $141.60, not $120 with the option of paying only the $120 or the $120 with another amount for the tip. If her family rule it to tip 17% the restaurant could call the cops for theft is she wanted to pay $140.40.

 

But it's not a choice if you're a couple who wants to go out to dinner with 6 friends either. Either way, the percentage is the same. You could NOT go out to dinner, but if you want to go out, you want to go out, whether with friends or with your 6 kids.

 

And I have never, ever heard of a restaurant that didn't allow you to change the amount of gratuity. As I mentioned, my dad balks at this as well, and I can think of no fewer than 5 times when he has asked about it. He has been told, every single time, that they would change it to whatever he wanted--that it's just a consideration on their part, to help you out. Of course, we all know that's BS, but I've never been in a position where there was a mandatory gratuity added to the bill. If that's what cindergretta was told, then no, I'd never darken that restaurant's door again, but I wouldn't consider it discrimination against large families specifically. I'd consider it horrific customer service in general.

[Parrothead]

Well, the restaurant could try it. It wouldn't work though. Someone else said that it wasn't actually an obligation, which is correct. If you don't want to pay the gratuity, I've never been in a place where you could be held accountable. I think it was a little different for the banquets I worked, because part of the gratuity was in the contract. I never had a problem with that though, since I was usually tipped an extra hundred or so on top of the included gratuity.

I don't think everyone knows that a party of __ isn't held accountable. Generally when one is handed a bill one is obligated to pay in full whether it is for a meal or vehicle repairs. And if one does not pay the bill at a minimum one can be banned from the establishment to legal action on the part of the injured party.

[melissel]

It is penalizing. That tip is automatically added on to ensure the server doesn't get stiffed on a tip. Period. No one worries if the server gets stiffed by a small family, but they do if it is a large family.

 

Well, if you must persist in seeing it that way, then I guess we shouldn't bother continuing to discuss it :confused:

[GingerPoppy]

I do not disagree that the customer service in America is MUCH more professional than in Europe. :001_smile:

 

But you have to admit there is something charming about us, too. Things are lot more... spontaneous, by us. :tongue_smilie: The communication between the customer and the servers is somehow more organic. I often feel slightly uncomfortable in the American restaurants because I occasionally feel "harassed" by somebody going out of their way to serve me or keeping an eye on me and my potential needs all the time. I feel like saying, for Heaven's sake, do relax and just leave me alone and get out of my sight for a little while. :lol: Even if that means I will have to wait a little more to get the bill. There is something slightly unnatural and "tense" about many American restaurants, in Europe it is all much more relaxed.

 

This extends to other areas of life, too. Every single American maid we had first had to "unlearn" that extra-eager attitude. I like eagerness and I like fair work, but it makes me uncomfortable when people do not take a break now and then to chill or when they "artificially" constantly make themselves busy. Do not get me wrong, I do not appreciate lazing and incomplete work, but I typically like things to be a bit more relaxed overall. Americans are excellent workers, with excellent work ethic and very high professionalism, but they are typically not relaxed, which makes us Mediterraneans a bit uncomfortable sometimes. We like to sacrifice some strict efficiency if it brings about a more relaxed atmosphere. :tongue_smilie:

 

Unfortunately, most of the top tier European restaurants seem to have switched to the American work ethic in the last decade or so and have become quite "tense" too.

When I go out to eat, eating is secondary - principally I want to chat and socialize. I really could care less about being opened the door or no (DH will do it anyway for me), about being approached the very minute I come or five minutes later, about getting an extra drink NOW or ten minutes later when it is handy for the waiter. Really. I could care less, provided a warm, relaxed atmosphere.

 

Ahhh. Agreed.

 

I always felt I should have been born somewhere where siestas are the norm, or multi-course relaxed meals, or "island time". I would be happy.

[melissel]

I don't think everyone knows that a party of __ isn't held accountable. Generally when one is handed a bill one is obligated to pay in full whether it is for a meal or vehicle repairs. And if one does not pay the bill at a minimum one can be banned from the establishment to legal action on the part of the injured party.

 

Then the payer should ask. Typically that is listed on the menu, so one could ask before even ordering. I'm not convinced you're correct, though, and have never had or heard of any experience myself that would indicate otherwise. I suppose it might vary by state laws? I can't imagine it actually being enforced in such a way, considering that gratuity is just that--a gratuity, not a fee.

 

ETA: I wonder if it might be termed a "service charge" by some restaurants? In that case, yeah, I bet it would be mandatory. Again, I would not be darkening the doors of those places. I feel the same way about plate-sharing fees :glare:

Edited January 15, 2012 by melissel

[cindergretta]

I do think sometimes this type policy hurts the server. Obviously there will always be the cheapskate group, but it has been my experience that the mandatory tip for large party does more damage than good.

 

Not all restaurants follow this policy though. I was out Friday evening as 1 in a party of 23. I ordered a $2 baked potato and a soft drink. My total was $4 and change. I just left a $10 as my portion. As Ester Maria said often it is easier to just leave round numbers.

 

This is true. It is offensive to have a tip added on without your say. So you pay it but it is less than what you would have been paid if you would have been *trusted* to tip the server.

 

I assume the tip isn't actually mandatory. In which case, why add it on and offend the customer and have them leave less than they would have? Or get upset and leave nothing since it isn't mandatory and they are offended that such negative intent was assigned *their family?*

 

It is a practice that doesn't make sense (as explained in this thread) and leads to ill will on the part of the customer, who now wants to eat elsewhere and not leave the generous tip they would normally leave.

 

And earlier someone mentioned not eating out if you can't afford a generous tip. If people don't eat out, then servers don't have a job. Wouldn't it be better (in my state where servers make minimum wage) for a family to eat out and tip 10% than to stay home and have servers out or work or working less hours because people aren't eating out? :confused:

[LibraryLover]

Ahhh. Agreed.

 

I always felt I should have been born somewhere where siestas are the norm, or multi-course relaxed meals, or "island time". I would be happy.

 

 

Except when I want something ;) and the only time I have off to run to the market is siesta time.

 

For instance, I think it's terrible some supermarkets are open 24/7. What sort of egocentric, manic work -driven society would want stuff at all hours of the day and night... but sometimes I need Motrin for a child's tortured ear pain at 2am, dammit. They need to stay open for me me me!

Edited January 15, 2012 by LibraryLover

[Jeannie in NJ]

I waitressed in college (and my feet killed me every time I worked even wearing flat shoes). I was paid $2 an hour and had to tip out 10% to bartender and 10% to busboys. We had a large church group of about 30 people that would come in every Sunday night about 5 or 10 min before closing, were very rude and would leave a total of 25 cents TOTAL. We caught the manager of the restaurant leaving dollar bills under some of the plates for the waitresses so we would get a tip. The manager finally told this group not to come back to the restaurant. THey called and complained to the owners who told them that the manager made the decisions so we never had to deal with that group again.

[cindergretta]

Well, if you must persist in seeing it that way, then I guess we shouldn't bother continuing to discuss it :confused:

 

:confused: Yeah, and if you can't understand from where I am coming, then we needn't discuss it anymore. :001_huh: Since I don't agree with you, that is the end of the discussion. Well, since you don't agree with me, that is the end of the discussion.

 

:confused:

[Hannah C.]

My dh is a waiter. I posted a detailed response on another recent thread about tipping. My DH makes anywhere from $1300 to $2900 a month - that includes his paychecks and tips, after taxes. He receives no benefits - even if he works full-time or close to it. Restaurants, like other places with part-time workers, do everything they can to keep their part-time workers from going full-time and qualifying for benefits.

 

If you are going out to eat in America, and can't afford the tip, you shouldn't be going to a sit-down restaurant, period.

 

The added gratuity is intended to protect the server. Large parties require more care than smaller parties, and getting stiffed is therefore a bigger deal. FWIW, my husband prefers not to have a gratuity added and take his chances. He's experienced both high tips and low/no tips from large parties.

[Parrothead]

Then the payer should ask. Typically that is listed on the menu, so one could ask before even ordering. I'm not convinced you're correct, though, and have never had or heard of any experience myself that would indicate otherwise. I suppose it might vary by state laws? I can't imagine it actually being enforced in such a way, considering that gratuity is just that--a gratuity, not a fee.

Even so, when the policy is printed on the menu it isn't presented as either/or. It is presented as fact. "Parties of ___ or more will be charged a gratuity of ___%.

 

Not, "we will suggest __% for parties of ___ or more."

 

Maybe your dad is the smart one in the world of restaurant diners in that he thought to ask. I don't know many people who would even think to ask. It is more of a "this is our policy if you don't like it, don't eat here."

[Parrothead]

I waitressed in college (and my feet killed me every time I worked even wearing flat shoes). I was paid $2 an hour and had to tip out 10% to bartender and 10% to busboys. We had a large church group of about 30 people that would come in every Sunday night about 5 or 10 min before closing, were very rude and would leave a total of 25 cents TOTAL. We caught the manager of the restaurant leaving dollar bills under some of the plates for the waitresses so we would get a tip. The manager finally told this group not to come back to the restaurant. THey called and complained to the owners who told them that the manager made the decisions so we never had to deal with that group again.

Three cheers for the manager and the owners.

[melissel]

I waitressed in college (and my feet killed me every time I worked even wearing flat shoes). I was paid $2 an hour and had to tip out 10% to bartender and 10% to busboys. We had a large church group of about 30 people that would come in every Sunday night about 5 or 10 min before closing, were very rude and would leave a total of 25 cents TOTAL. We caught the manager of the restaurant leaving dollar bills under some of the plates for the waitresses so we would get a tip. The manager finally told this group not to come back to the restaurant. THey called and complained to the owners who told them that the manager made the decisions so we never had to deal with that group again.

 

Good for that manager! I hate when decent employees get sacrificed under the guise of customer service. I remember working phone customer service for a hotel chain, where we were told under no circumstance to allow customers to argue for a lower rate of their own negotiation--it just wasn't allowed. Unless, of course, they managed to get the manager on the phone, who would then sit down and go ahead and make up a lower rate for them on the spot, leaving us looking like ignorant jerks who had no idea what we were doing :glare: They always remembered our names, too, and would be so rude when they called back for anything. I hated that job (and it still doesn't compare to crummy waitressing jobs!).

[Aelwydd]

And earlier someone mentioned not eating out if you can't afford a generous tip. If people don't eat out, then servers don't have a job. Wouldn't it be better (in my state where servers make minimum wage) for a family to eat out and tip 10% than to stay home and have servers out or work or working less hours because people aren't eating out? :confused:

 

Don't know about your area, but in this one, the restaurants here are generally kept busy, and on the weekends, they're swamped. So, I'm not denying anyone a paycheck by staying home.

 

Also, I mentioned before that I see it as moral issue. If I can't afford to pay someone what they're worth, I won't presume to use their services and then justify it to myself as, "Well, at least I'm keeping them employed."

 

I would be keeping them employed--by underpaying them. I see that as stealing from someone and no, I won't do it.

[Plucky]

I don't want to get into the argument, but I will say that when an 18% gratuity is added to my bill it does irk me. I just let the 18% stand knowing that I usually tip 20% at the minimum.

 

I am sympathetic to the server's plight as I was one once upon a time, but this policy is annoying, and they actually get less tips from some of us.

[Sputterduck]

Ahhh. Agreed.

 

I always felt I should have been born somewhere where siestas are the norm, or multi-course relaxed meals, or "island time". I would be happy.

 

I though so, too, but sometimes it can be very frustrating! You know how people hate waiting all day long for the cable guy to show up? It can be like that just every day, all the time. How about you haven't been able to flush the toilet for 3 days, or take a shower, or clean the dishes, and the water delivery guy is on "Mexican time". Or let's say you are doing a class online and then you have no internet and the phone company take 5 appointments and 4 weeks to actually show up. Eventually you want to walk around like a mad-woman screaming, "Siestas are GREAT but it would nice if someone would ACTUALLY GET SOMETHING DONE AT SOME POINT AROUND HERE."

 

I'm told that if I say "American time" people will actually take my timing more seriously. I think they think Americans are all overly rigid and anal. Maybe we are. I dunno. But I do like to take showers and flush my toilet and not flunk classes.

[melissel]

Even so, when the policy is printed on the menu it isn't presented as either/or. It is presented as fact. "Parties of ___ or more will be charged a gratuity of ___%.

 

Not, "we will suggest __% for parties of ___ or more."

 

Maybe your dad is the smart one in the world of restaurant diners in that he thought to ask. I don't know many people who would even think to ask. It is more of a "this is our policy if you don't like it, don't eat here."

 

Interesting. I've just never thought of it as mandatory, even before we were ever a party large enough to warrant it. I'm not sure why I've always known (or assumed) it wasn't. I guess if I really did think it was just policy, I WOULDN'T eat there--like I don't eat at restaurants that charge for sharing plates.

[Sputterduck]

Don't know about your area, but in this one, the restaurants here are generally kept busy, and on the weekends, they're swamped. So, I'm not denying anyone a paycheck by staying home.

 

Also, I mentioned before that I see it as moral issue. If I can't afford to pay someone what they're worth, I won't presume to use their services and then justify it to myself as, "Well, at least I'm keeping them employed."

 

I would be keeping them employed--by underpaying them. I see that as stealing from someone and no, I won't do it.

 

:iagree:

[melissel]

Eventually you want to walk around like a mad-woman screaming, "Siestas are GREAT but it would nice if someone would ACTUALLY GET SOMETHING DONE AT SOME POINT AROUND HERE."

 

:lol::lol::lol: That would drive me insane.

[Aelwydd]

My dh is a waiter. I posted a detailed response on another recent thread about tipping. My DH makes anywhere from $1300 to $2900 a month - that includes his paychecks and tips, after taxes. He receives no benefits - even if he works full-time or close to it. Restaurants, like other places with part-time workers, do everything they can to keep their part-time workers from going full-time and qualifying for benefits.

 

If you are going out to eat in America, and can't afford the tip, you shouldn't be going to a sit-down restaurant, period.

 

The added gratuity is intended to protect the server. Large parties require more care than smaller parties, and getting stiffed is therefore a bigger deal. FWIW, my husband prefers not to have a gratuity added and take his chances. He's experienced both high tips and low/no tips from large parties.

 

 

This makes me angry all over again. Not at the included/non-included gratuity thing. Truly, I see advantages and disadvantages to both.

 

Hannah, we live very close (I say this in a non-creepy way!), so I know well how this area can support the food service industry. It really upsets me that your dh can't get full time. This area is like the Mecca of Overeaters Anonymous. Restaurants here are constantly busy, and I know a lot of them are making a ton of money, but they won't take care of their workers.

[Parrothead]

Interesting. I've just never thought of it as mandatory, even before we were ever a party large enough to warrant it. I'm not sure why I've always known (or assumed) it wasn't. I guess if I really did think it was just policy, I WOULDN'T eat there--like I don't eat at restaurants that charge for sharing plates.

Now see, I get the plate sharing policy much better than the charging a specific percent gratuity.

[Aelwydd]

I'm told that if I say "American time" people will actually take my timing more seriously. I think they think Americans are all overly rigid and anal. Maybe we are. I dunno. But I do like to take showers and flush my toilet and not flunk classes.

 

So, what you're saying is that we are the Germans to Mexico's America. :001_huh:

[MHowell]

Okay I got through about 9 pages before feeling sick. I have waitressed (sp?) in both California and Texas. I was a single mom in both states, and was working my way through school. Here are some of my experiences.

 

In CA, I made $6.75 an hour plus tips. Typically shifts were 4-5 hours each, because any longer than that they had to give you breaks, and of course it's cheaper to just have more employees and no breaks.

 

The longest stretch was at an Applebee's in my college town. Yes COLLEGE TOWN. We had $2 beers, and cheap appetizers most nights. A party of 4 could leave with a bill under $20, which meant 1 1/2 hours of work with multiple orders would only get me $5 if I was lucky. With a 4-6 table section, that hour and a 1/2 would net me about $30 in tips. So in a six hour shift, I made $120 in tips. (this of course assuming I worked 6 hours instead of 4) Now that my shift is over, I need to "tip out" EVERYONE. The bartender would get $10-$20 (predetermined on my check out sheet) depending on how much I ordered from him. Cheap beer nights, were always $20 or more. So now I am at $100. But then there are bus boys and hostesses. Usually 4 on shift total, $5-$10 each. You want them to HELP, so you over tip them so they help more on the next shift. Now I'm at $60. But wait, there's more. The cooks are crooked, and even though I HATE it, I know if I give the kitchen $20, next shift my food will come out on time and perfect. Are they supposed to get tipped? No, but everyone knows this is the only way to get your food right and on time. So at the end of my shift, I am taking home $40 in tips. Add this to 6 hours of pay and my net income is $80.50. I still have taxes to pay and I do get taxed on 10% of my sales, even if I am not taking home this much. The cooks, bus boys, and hostesses do not get taxed on tips.

 

Granted, this is a cheap night. On a normal non-happy hour shift I could take home $70-$100. But those night were no where as often as my $40 nights.

 

Now Texas. Holy Molly! I made $2 and some change an hour. People tipped like nothing, and my paychecks I usually owed money. I could have made more working at Taco Bell.

 

 

One summer I worked at a bar as a cocktail waitress in CA. I made A LOT of money there, and only the bartenders had to pay taxes on tips. Of course it was 8 hour shifts in high heels ans small skirts, walking around with a tray of drinks hoping no drunk person spilled them. I had to buy the drinks from the bartender, and then charge the drink to the customers cash only, and if you didn't know your drink prices or added wrong the only one screwed was you. I remember one night where I had made $400, another girl somehow ended her shift with $80. She was devastated, and the bar manager was really rude and nasty to her about it. I felt horrible for her. $80 is still a lot, but knowing you HAD more than that, it sucks!

 

I don't know anyone still waitressing because they WANT to. If they graduated they are there because they couldn't find a job anywhere else making enough to survive.

 

Our business now is a service industry. We do not get tipped (nor expect to). We do get Christmas presents sometimes, but we work very closely with families and new babies, a lot of times the families are very grateful for our service. The extra is a way for them to say thank you for treating us well; just like any tip over 10% is a thank you for a job well done. Get bad service? Leave less. But being upset about how much they are taking home is ridiculous.

 

I thought the initial post was extremely judgmental and rude, even if she didn't mean it that way.

[Plucky]

Interesting. I've just never thought of it as mandatory, even before we were ever a party large enough to warrant it. I'm not sure why I've always known (or assumed) it wasn't. I guess if I really did think it was just policy, I WOULDN'T eat there--like I don't eat at restaurants that charge for sharing plates.

 

People can get arrested when they don't pay the 18% gratuity.

[Sputterduck]

So, what you're saying is that we are the Germans to Mexico's America. :001_huh:

 

That is precisely my point, actually.

[LibraryLover]

So, what you're saying is that we are the Germans to Mexico's America. :001_huh:

 

 

tmi And that's funny. :)

Edited January 15, 2012 by LibraryLover

[Ester Maria]

I'm told that if I say "American time" people will actually take my timing more seriously. I think they think Americans are all overly rigid and anal. Maybe we are.

Well, you are a curious people, you know. :tongue_smilie:

 

It sometimes irks me that you are all so "proper" in what I perceive as "all the wrong areas" (timeliness, etc. - as opposed to academic standards propriety, for example), but most of the time, I kind of pity you for what I perceive as being "tense" (I realize that you are not actually tense and that it is a normal way of being, but it is hard for me to grasp that). I am often willing to sacrifice some efficiency for good atmosphere, and I know many people who are willing to do so. Yes, it means there will be more "chaos" on a day to day basis, but if you can laugh through it, it is all good. :lol:

[Aelwydd]

That is precisely my point, actually.

 

Great! I feel this is the clearest moment of communication I've had in at least 5 pages of this thread. :D

[melissel]

People can get arrested when they don't pay the 18% gratuity.

 

I'm sure you probably could, but would you be convicted? I highly doubt it.

 

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Theft-Charges-Dropped-Against-No-Tip-Couple--71865807.html

 

Northampton County District Attorney John Morganelli said Pope and her friend were right and recommended to Bethlehem police that the charges against the couple be dropped, according to the Allentown Morning Call.

 

“It would not be the kind of case that should be processed criminally, Morganelli told the paper. “It was one of those matters that should be processed civilly.â€

 

Pope, who has interviewed with media outlets across the country, told The Express Times, she is grateful she has be vindicated and looks forward to her day in court.

 

“It’s been six days. It didn’t take long,†she said.

 

The case captured national attention and bought into question whether customers should pay a tip regardless of the level of service they receive.

 

Of course no one wants to be arrested, but bringing it up with management before you walk out the door and leave nothing would probably eliminate that as a result.

[MHowell]

People can get arrested when they don't pay the 18% gratuity.

 

I've had people not pay the 18% quite often at different restaurants in different states and we never tried to have them arrested?

 

 

Also just because 18% is added you can still leave more. We have a monthly 'dinner party' with friends. 18 adults, a different restaurant each month. 18% is always added no matter where we are and we always leave more. We are a BIG party, and we require more work. We have all also worked in restaurants at one point in time or another so we all get it.

[Aelwydd]

Which leads me to wonder why the UK, Switzerland, and Germany are considered part of Europe. They are nothing like the real Europe, which I consider to be France, Spain, Portugal, and Greece. (Italy is it's own separate continent for me. They have art and good food and stuff, but they also have Sopranos, yanno?)

 

Ok, we've established Germany's relationship.

 

So what's Switzerland? Canada's idyll?

[MHowell]

I'm sure you probably could, but would you be convicted? I highly doubt it.

 

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Theft-Charges-Dropped-Against-No-Tip-Couple--71865807.html

 

 

 

Of course no one wants to be arrested, but bringing it up with management before you walk out the door and leave nothing would probably eliminate that as a result.

 

This is an exception, and as it states the charges were dropped. Most places wouldn't want the hassle of it all.

[melissel]

This is an exception, and as it states the charges were dropped. Most places wouldn't want the hassle of it all.

 

:iagree:

 

Here's another (that reinforces two points made in the thread, as it happens):

 

http://news.myway.com/odd/article/id/427484|oddlyenough|09-16-2004::09:27|reuters.html

 

Taveras said he left a 10 percent tip because the food was not very good.

 

And that is the server's fault how? :confused:

 

Warren County District Attorney Kathleen Hogan said the man could not be forced to pay a gratuity even though the restaurant said tips of 18 percent were mandatory for parties of six or more.

 

"A tip or gratuity is discretionary, and that's what the courts have found," Hogan told the newspaper.

[Parrothead]

From the article quoted above.

...refused to pay a $16.35 mandatory service fee charged by the Lehigh Pub on East Fourth Street. The couple only paid $73.87 of the $90.22 bill.

 

Since when did tipping become a mandatory service fee?

[melissel]

From the article quoted above.

 

Since when did tipping become a mandatory service fee?

 

Precisely. It's not. I don't disagree that the policy can have it's downsides. I just wouldn't take that out on the server, and I wouldn't consider it some kind of discrimination. I'd tip what I'd normally tip. If it was less than 18%, I'd talk to the manager first. If it was more, so be it. But like cindergretta did, I'd talk to manager about how that policy impacted my desire to eat at the restaurant again.

[Parrothead]

"A tip or gratuity is discretionary, and that's what the courts have found," Hogan told the newspaper.

 

This is good to know.

 

Not that I begrudge anyone a generous tip for good service.

[Ester Maria]

(Italy is it's own separate continent for me. They have art and good food and stuff, but they also have Sopranos, yanno?)

 

;)

:svengo: