ma23peas Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 Now this just bugs the beejeebies out of me. I am sorry, but I will call it holier than thou semantics...call it like I see it. I do not believe in drinking alcohol...the only thing the Bible says about it is to not drink to excess...but I do not go to my friends who like to embibe every now and then and tell them that they are going against God...because He does not say that, but heck, when they go to excess, well, then yes they are...but who of us does not go against God? I look at Philippians 4:8: Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable--if anything is excellent or praiseworthy--think about such things. So, let's think about it. Is Christmas true? Well, yes, it is honoring an event that took place and can be proven historically not to mention through all the gospels. Is it noble..oh my goodness...how many noble deeds have been acted upon out of a man's heart to honor this holiday by his deeds...was it not noble for the soldiers to put aside their fighting and sing "Silent Night" that snow covered day during the height of WW2? That is just one of thousands of noble deeds that are done in honor of this day. Is it right? Let's go to the scripture : So they went with haste and they discovered Mary and Joseph, and the baby lying in the manger; 17and having seen them, they made known about the word that had been spoken to them about this child. 18And all who heard it marvelled at the words that had been told by the shepherds to them; 19but Mary treasured all these things, pondering them in her heart. 20And the shepherds returned, glorifying and praising God for all the things that they had heard and seen, as it had been told to them. Now get this last point, for they glorified and praised God and shared the news with all their friends as it had been told them...is that not what the purpose of Christmas is? As for the rest, you can easily find evidence to support the celebration of the birth of Christ. Now, I do not appreciate the secularization of this holiday or the commercialization...but at least it makes one think if just for a second about the importance of this date and the gift it is. I think when friends want to pass their revelations about things like this on to you, it shows a lack of understanding...God commanded us to love one another just as He has loved us. What she brought for you was angst and worry...not love and joy...this has no bearing on your salvation...I am not against those who feel God is leading them away from the celebrations associated with Christ's birth..but I find it contentious for them to say so to someone they know does participate in the celebrations..to what end? Just take it as information you can now use to avoid sending her a card and respect her decision but do not take it personally as a judgment against you...let her figure out those for herself. I can imagine taking that stance and if there is the slightest doubt how defensive they may get trying to defend a position they may question...because if they believe it makes them 'more' Christian to have that revelation...it's showing just the opposite in the way she presented it. I will go out with my friends that drink, I don't have to drink, but I do not have to share my position... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SailorMom Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 I do not disagree with you, I just think the point of the article was different. It (as I read it) was not about Christianity utilizing Pagan dates for their own celebrations, therefore trying to "breed" the Paganness out of them, but more about mathmaticaly coming to a date based off the date of the crucifixion that just happens to coincide with some Pagan festivals. That was how I read it. Truthfully, it does not bother me either way. :D There is much about Paganism that I appreciate. Edited to add: I completely agree that later on there were specific attempts to utilize Pagans dates in an attempt to make them less Pagan. Yeah - a lot is semantics. It is amazing how many different calendars (time-lines) different Church Fathers tried out :) I'm amazed they finally all agreed on one..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldberry Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 If you believe, as I do, that celebrating Christmas displeases God, it can be tricky to discuss it with anyone. They notice you don't celebrate, they ask you why, you tell them why and they then go away feeling as if you have been rude and presumptuous because you have told them what you believe. I don't volunteer why I don't celebrate, but if someone asks why, I will tell them. I tell them why I choose not to, and I would never say or insinuate that God is going to "punish" them. But yet still some act as if my choice not to celebrate is offensive to THEM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMD Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 God is not bound by our calendars or by pagan symbols (I'm pretty sure God created pine trees with the rest of them). Paul used pagan symbols - remember the 'unknown god' sermon? - to teach people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simka2 Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 Yeah - a lot is semantics. It is amazing how many different calendars (time-lines) different Church Fathers tried out :) I'm amazed they finally all agreed on one..... Whenever I think about the Paganism of Christmas I think about the wise men. Doesn't get more pagan (reading the stars and all) yet they were welcomed and willing to participate in the nativity. Makes me smile ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 This is not entirely true and it would probably be worth reading the article mommaduck linked. Maybe for Western Christianity it was the case, but Eastern was celebrating the Nativity (around Dec 25th) very early on. Yep, and the earl church celebrated it almost immediately-it's in the writings-though I'd have to ask Father which ones because he spoke about it recently. Mary was still alive when the early church formed *she* knew when her Son was born. We always forget that Mary, spoke for herself in those early days. Just because her life wasn't detailed out in writing doesn't mean that oral tradition holds no truth. Even movies like A Case for Christ proves the high standards of oral tradition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JenniferB Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 Mary was still alive when the early church formed *she* knew when her Son was born. Very interesting! :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ma23peas Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 I could care less if it is the actual day, From my readings the date was 'picked' by Constantine, after the Nicene meetings he declared that Christians could not be persecuted, he honored this by allowing then to have religious celebrations without condemnation. At the time, Saturnalia was the biggest celebration by nonChristian citizens so he declared a date that coincided in these to allow Christians a time for public worship...his heart was in the right place at a time when Christians were being massacred for any sign of worship, I am just thankful our family can celebrate the birth of Jesus freely... Oh and this date was well after Mary passed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elizabeth Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 http://www.patheos.com/blogs/religioromana/2011/12/mesonyctium-and-the-savior-gods/ This is but one example of how Christianity utilized already existent motifs and paradigms in their version of a saviour god. Interesting reading for those who are curious about history and other religious traditions than the Abrahamic ones. History and religious anthropology are studied at our home with the fervor reserved for Bible study at others. This is the tip of the iceberg in terms of material pointing to the very, very pagan origins of what is known as Christmas. It is of no moment to me personally but it seems that the spirit of the celebration should not hinge on specific dates and an entrenched literalism that insists on treating faith matters as fact. In essence, if you are a Christian it seems a reasonable and sensible thing to celebrate the birth of Jesus without the date needing to be proven to be exactly on x day in order for it to be sacred space and time. The belief that Jesus was the God of Abraham made flesh should be sufficient cause to celebrate, or not, depending on one's beliefs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SailorMom Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 http://www.patheos.com/blogs/religioromana/2011/12/mesonyctium-and-the-savior-gods/ This is but one example of how Christianity utilized already existent motifs and paradigms in their version of a saviour god. Interesting reading for those who are curious about history and other religious traditions than the Abrahamic ones. . This is an accurate, scholarly article. :) Atty's and Isis are not given much media, but really - the similarities between the stories of Attys and Jesus...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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