Question and National Merit and ACT/SAT scores..

[Capt_Uhura]

Creekland mentioned in another thread (pros/cons of HSing high school) that if she ever moved again, she'd look at the schools ACT/SAT scores etc. So I decided to take a look at my school's scores. I know of no other place to post to get interpretation of the scores so I thought I try here. :D

 

For a class size of 569, there were 2 N.M.S.Q.T. Semifinalist Commendations. That is down from 8 in 2010, 6 in 2009, 10 in 2008, 5 in 2007, 6 in 2006 and 22 in 2005. 2005 looks like an outlier perhaps 2011 is a low outlier?

 

For 2011, the Mean ACT comp score was 24 (not much change over the years).

 

For 2011, Critical Reading=510, math=531, Writing=491 for the SAT. Those scores have steadily declined since 2005. In 2005 (highest scores), critical reading=532, Math=552.

 

Demographics: Suburbia, 1hr from large city, >90% white, middle-upper class, less than 5% on free-lunch.

 

This is my only high school choice. There is only the one. I've not heard good things about it from teachers who have taught there or know of others who teach there. I'm currently trying to assess the academics.

 

For the school's website:

Advanced Placement Courses are offered in: Art, Biology, Calculus AB and BC, Chemistry, English Language Composition 11, English Literature and Composition, European History, Government, Phys*ics, Spanish and U. S. History. College credit, in conjunction with XXXXX Community College and the University of XXXXX, is offered in Biology, Calculus, English, French, Italian, Latin, Physics and Spanish.

 

What's the difference between Calc AB and BC?

 

My son is only in 6th grade but I feel like I need to start making long term plans if we decide NOT to send him to this high school. Actually, high school is only 2yrs away!!!

 

Capt Uhura

[Capt_Uhura]

Thank you Karen! It's hard to interpret scores and such these days as things are so inflated. This school has a lot of AP classes from what I've been told and a lot of honors classes. However, from the few high schoolers I've spoken to, the honors classes seem to be more of the average kids. The classes which are not honors, the regular track, which I assumed would be average, are the low-performers, sit in class and goof off, teacher spoon-feeds answers to the test. One high schooler I knew, who was then in the 11th grade, and honors English, honors Science, honors History sent out a letter to the neighborhood introducing herself for baby sitting over the summer. This letter was so poorly written. I was shocked. I even showed it to two teachers who all agreed that it was poorly written. Perhaps since it wasn't something for school she didn't pay attention to grammar or mechanics but if you're introducing yourself to people, you would think you'd put your best writing skills forward.

 

The number of NM commendations seemed low for a school that size.

[Teachin'Mine]

Creekland mentioned in another thread (pros/cons of HSing high school) that if she ever moved again, she'd look at the schools ACT/SAT scores etc. So I decided to take a look at my school's scores. I know of no other place to post to get interpretation of the scores so I thought I try here. :D

 

For a class size of 569, there were 2 N.M.S.Q.T. Semifinalist Commendations. That is down from 8 in 2010, 6 in 2009, 10 in 2008, 5 in 2007, 6 in 2006 and 22 in 2005. 2005 looks like an outlier perhaps 2011 is a low outlier?

 

For 2011, the Mean ACT comp score was 24 (not much change over the years).

 

For 2011, Critical Reading=510, math=531, Writing=491 for the SAT. Those scores have steadily declined since 2005. In 2005 (highest scores), critical reading=532, Math=552.

 

Demographics: Suburbia, 1hr from large city, >90% white, middle-upper class, less than 5% on free-lunch.

 

This is my only high school choice. There is only the one. I've not heard good things about it from teachers who have taught there or know of others who teach there. I'm currently trying to assess the academics.

 

For the school's website:

Advanced Placement Courses are offered in: Art, Biology, Calculus AB and BC, Chemistry, English Language Composition 11, English Literature and Composition, European History, Government, Phys*ics, Spanish and U. S. History. College credit, in conjunction with XXXXX Community College and the University of XXXXX, is offered in Biology, Calculus, English, French, Italian, Latin, Physics and Spanish.

 

What's the difference between Calc AB and BC?

My son is only in 6th grade but I feel like I need to start making long term plans if we decide NOT to send him to this high school. Actually, high school is only 2yrs away!!!

Capt Uhura

 

Calculus AB is Calculus I only. Calculus BC is Calculus I and II and is usually taught in one year, so it's more rigorous. On the AP exam results, you'll get separate scores for AB only and for AB and BC, or is that BC only?, - not sure.

 

Not sure why so many think sending their children to ps high school would be better than homeschooling, but for us, I'm sooooooo glad we went the way we did.

For the school's website:

Advanced Placement Courses are offered in: Art, Biology, Calculus AB and BC, Chemistry, English Language Composition 11, English Literature and Composition, European History, Government, Phys*ics, Spanish and U. S. History.

 

Capt Uhura

 

There's a movement to have public schools offer a lot of AP classes now, but having the classes doesn't prove much in terms of rigor. I'd want to know how many kids are passing the AP exams, and with which grades. If all the kids are getting 1's on their AP exams, it doesn't say much for the AP classes. If they are all getting 5's, that says something else.

[Janice in NJ]

With the AP classes, I wouldn't look at how many classes they offer or how many kids take them, I would find out how many kids actually sit for the test. Then I would want to know the scores.

 

For me that was the eye opener. I just assumed the numbers were better than they were. And I've discovered that I wasn't alone. When I talk to friends, I've found that most of them are aware of what AP classes their high school offers. Like me, they just assume those programs are successfully cranking out kids with high scores on the tests. When I ask folks about it, they look puzzled.

 

After all, it just doesn't make sense. If the goal of AP classes it to challenge kids to tackle college level material in high school, then of course the kids are successful, right? Why else offer all of those classes, right? Why else would the districts spend so much time talking about it? No one would ramble on and on about a program that was failing to meet the goal for most of the students, right? It must be working. Right?

 

For some kids it works. In our area it isn't working for as many as you would think. The percentages are just not that high.

 

It is good to be informed. Things will eventually start to make more sense. In the beginning, I must admit I was surprised about a lot of things. But as we moved along, things started to make more sense. ;)

 

Peace,

Janice

 

Enjoy your little people

Enjoy your journey

 

Oh. And a extra bit of info: AP doesn't always mean college credit. AP sometimes means "Advanced Placement" which means the kid still has to take a course in that discipline, but now his hard work in high school means that he has to take a harder course in college. Like most things, it pays to be informed. But that's a whole 'nother conversation. ;)

[snowbeltmom]

There's a movement to have public schools offer a lot of AP classes now, but having the classes doesn't prove much in terms of rigor. I'd want to know how many kids are passing the AP exams, and with which grades. If all the kids are getting 1's on their AP exams, it doesn't say much for the AP classes. If they are all getting 5's, that says something else.

:iagree:

You should ask the high school guidance counselor for the school's yearly "College Board Summary Report." This report will state how the students performed on each individual AP test. Our high school is listed in Newsweek's expanded list of "Top Public High Schools." However, the actual AP results are a disaster - something that most parents do not realize.

 

You will also be able to determine from this report which AP classes were offered that year. For example, our high school looks great on paper - according to the school catalog, the students have a choice of 16 AP classes. However, many of the classes are not offered every year. Our high school is not offering AP Chemistry this year, and last year, the AP Chemistry class was offered the same period as AP Physics B so the kids had to choose which class to take. This would obviously put a STEM kid at a huge disadvantage in college.

[regentrude]

With the AP classes, I wouldn't look at how many classes they offer or how many kids take them, I would find out how many kids actually sit for the test. Then I would want to know the scores.

 

 

I second (third?) this.

I have heard stories from my students that kids were forced into AP classes who were neither capable of, nor interested in, doing the work - just so they had enough numbers to be able to run the class. My students complained that they learned next to nothing.

 

So, the number of AP classes and students therein means not much. you need to see how many students take the AP test and score well.

[Janice in NJ]

http://professionals.collegeboard.com/profdownload/AP-Student-Score-Distributions.pdf

 

According to the chart, AP exams were taken by students from 18,430 high schools.

 

AP English Language, one of the more popular exams, yielded 45,741 kids with a 5 and 82,513 kids with a 4. Most four-years schools require a 4 or a 5 on that exam in order for it to "count." Many require a 5. Some won't allow credit for it in an case. Anyway. Back to the numbers. The total number of kids who managed a 4 or a 5 was 128,254. That's an average of 7 kids per high school.

 

AP American History, another popular course. 129,362 kids scored a 4 or a 5. That's an average of seven kids per high school.

 

BC Calculus: 2.9 kids per school with a 4 or a 5.

Chemistry: 2.4 kids per school.

 

You can see the numbers for yourself. It's the untold AP story.

 

Peace,

Janice

 

Enjoy your little people

Enjoy your journey

Edited December 10, 2011 by Janice in NJ

[Capt_Uhura]

WOW! I knew I'd get tons of info here. You ladies rock!!! thank you! I will definitely try to get my hands on that report. From what I've read, I've not been that impressed w/ AP classes. The very little I know of them, if you're able to regurgitate the textbook on the test, you pass. My son's strength is in making connections, really having discussions about it, going deeper. Am I right in this or does it depend on how the school/teacher runs the AP class? HSers can sit for AP exams correct and just self-study?

 

Can I only get my schools AP report through the school? Is that info not available anywhere online?

http://professionals.collegeboard.com/profdownload/AP-Student-Score-Distributions.pdf

 

According to the chart, AP exams were taken by students from 18,430 high schools.

 

AP English Language, one of the more popular exams, yielded 45,741 kids with a 5 and 82,513 kids with a 4. Most four-years schools require a 4 or a 5 on that exam in order for it to "count." Many require a 5. Some won't allow credit for it in an case. Anyway. Back to the numbers. The total number of kids who managed a 4 or a 5 was 128,254. That's an average of 7 kids per high school.

 

AP American History, another popular course. 129,362 kids scored a 4 or a 5. That's an average of seven kids per high school.

 

BC Calculus: 2.9 kids per school with a 4 or a 5.

Chemistry: 2.4 kids per school.

 

You can see the numbers for yourself. It's the untold AP story.

 

Peace,

Janice

 

Enjoy your little people

Enjoy your journey

 

I'm not quite sure what you are getting at here?

 

BC Calculus has the highest "pass" rate (3 or higher) of any of the popular tests, at 80%, though three times as many students took English Language than BC Calc. Even though 18,000 high schools offered at least one AP test, that doesn't mean that all 18,000 offered BC Calc. You can't say that 3 kids per school passed BC calc. It would be interesting to see how many kids enrolled in any given AP class actually sat for the exam.

[creekland]

There's a movement to have public schools offer a lot of AP classes now, but having the classes doesn't prove much in terms of rigor. I'd want to know how many kids are passing the AP exams, and with which grades. If all the kids are getting 1's on their AP exams, it doesn't say much for the AP classes. If they are all getting 5's, that says something else.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

Our school has kids with 4.0 and higher averages. When we used to have AP classes they bragged about those even though we rarely had a passing grade on the AP test and few even attempted the test. Now we have College in the High School classes that they brag about, but the level of actual learning hasn't changed much, but now they get "credit" based on the teacher's assessment, not any year end test.

 

Otherwise, for comparison...

 

We have between 300 and 350 in a typical graduating class. Sometimes we get 1 NM commended student, many times none. I don't recall more than one any given year, but my memory could be off. This senior class has one NMSF and next year's class will likely have one too. I don't know of others in next year's class who will come close otherwise, but we should find out next week.

 

Our average SAT scores:

 

2011 165 took the test, Verbal 480, Math 502, Writing 454

2010 140 took the test, Verbal 482, Math 505, Writing 457

2009 132 took the test, Verbal 482, Math 498, Writing 463

2008 164 took the test, Verbal 465, Math 493, Writing 443

2007 143 took the test, Verbal 476, Math 498, Writing 452

 

Our average ACT scores:

 

PA only has kept these for the past 2 years since we're such a dominant SAT state...

 

2011 15 took the test, C 22.5, E 21.9, M 23.1, S 21.4, R 23.1

2010 7 took the test and the state doesn't have averages for so little, so who knows?

[snowbeltmom]

 

Can I only get my schools AP report through the school? Is that info not available anywhere online?

 

I am not 100% sure, but I think you can only get that report through the school. Perhaps some schools share those results online, but our public school would definitely not want to broadcast the results online.:D

 

Initially, the guidance counselor told me I was not permitted to see the report. I told her that it was my understanding that since the report did not contain any student names, the school was required to provide me with the info. After consulting the higher-ups, she sent me a copy in the mail. After seeing the scores, I can completely understand why she was reluctant to share.:001_huh:

[Janice in NJ]

That's what I get for trying to toss the idea out there in a hurry. (Sorry!) Our high school does not post its scores. Few do. My point is that on average there are not a ton of kids (percentage wise) who are nailing 4's or 5's on AP tests in high school. It happens, but it's not a high percentage overall.

 

As discussed on these boards, the number of kids who are going to be National Merit finalists this year will run around 8,300. A small percentage. Not a whole lot different from the kids who will get a 4/5 on the BC calculus exam. Yes it will happen; there will be some. But I remember when I started homeschooling so many people asked me, "What about AP classes?" I don't think people generally understand how this works out for most kids.

 

The numbers offer a feel for the success of most kids. Of course individual success will vary....sounds like homeschooling odds, eh? My point? In homeschooling circles, things can get confusing. Moms can end up feeling they aren't doing a good job without racking up a bunch of AP scores . Sometimes it helps to have a clearer picture of all of our options. It helps us understand the landscape. Kids in school are successfully making those scores, but it's not a typical experience.

 

Peace,

Janice

It's hard to interpret scores and such these days as things are so inflated. ... One high schooler I knew, who was then in the 11th grade, and honors English, honors Science, honors History sent out a letter to the neighborhood introducing herself for baby sitting over the summer. This letter was so poorly written....

 

I think your radar is spot on here. Ultimately, the proof of education is in the pudding. It is easy to get caught up in the trap of testing and numbers, but in the end we're talking about people here. If you really want to know how well someone is being educated, the best way is to simply talk with them. We get a lot of chances to interact with local high school kids, via babysitting, club sports, church, etc., and just a couple of casual questions about schoolwork, favorite books read in school, most interesting class, college plans, etc. reveal a lot more than a test score. Of course, that kind of subjective information takes a lot more work to come by.

[creekland]

I think your radar is spot on here. Ultimately, the proof of education is in the pudding. It is easy to get caught up in the trap of testing and numbers, but in the end we're talking about people here. If you really want to know how well someone is being educated, the best way is to simply talk with them. We get a lot of chances to interact with local high school kids, via babysitting, club sports, church, etc., and just a couple of casual questions about schoolwork, favorite books read in school, most interesting class, college plans, etc. reveal a lot more than a test score. Of course, that kind of subjective information takes a lot more work to come by.

 

Personally, I have not found subjective information to be nearly as helpful as objective. Most people consider their local schools to be good and they can give you interesting classes and loved teachers, etc. The problem lies in the definition of "good." Since I went to a "good" high school and even spent a year in a great high school (private though), my definition varies considerably from those who only know local schools. We thought we had done our homework checking out schools. I was mistaken. In my next life I will use far more objective stats to compare. ;)

[Capt_Uhura]

I think I understand what you are saying Janice. You can have a ton of kids taking these AP classes, but how many actually take the test in your school, and of those, how many get a 4 or 5? And my big question is....is it worth it? Do you really learn anything with that 4 or 5? Or are you just playing the numbers game?

[Laura in CA]

Personally, I have not found subjective information to be nearly as helpful as objective. Most people consider their local schools to be good and they can give you interesting classes and loved teachers, etc. The problem lies in the definition of "good." Since I went to a "good" high school and even spent a year in a great high school (private though), my definition varies considerably from those who only know local schools. We thought we had done our homework checking out schools. I was mistaken. In my next life I will use far more objective stats to compare. ;)

 

:iagree: If we had known this data was readily available, we might have chosen to buy a house in the next town over, with higher housing prices because of the supposedly "better" school district. Well, we had NO IDEA that "better" actually meant something tangible -- we thought people were just being snobby. The data is out there; we just didn't know it when our kids were babies. :001_smile: As it turns out, we have ended up taking our kids to this neighboring school district for the talent-search testing (they administer the SAT just to junior-high kids for the talent search); AMC 8, 10, and 12 tests; etc. -- all stuff that our school district, with its (laudable) "inclusive" mentality, wouldn't *dream* of doing ...

 

See the charts below. The school at left in each graph (highest stats) is one town over, less than 5 miles away, but light-years away in terms of its demographics and parental expectations (read: Asian and Indian immigrant parents make up a very, very large fraction of the total). Guess which school district we chose to buy a house in (hint: at the far right in both graphs :glare:). Overall we're happy, the kids have great friends, we love homeschooling and may never have thought of it otherwise, but ... we wish we'd had the data earlier.

(The graphs show data for the 8 public high schools in our valley.)

Edited December 10, 2011 by Laura in CA
typo

[creekland]

:iagree: If we had know this data was readily available, we might have chosen to buy a house in the next town over, with higher housing prices because of the supposedly "better" school district. Well, we had NO IDEA that "better" actually meant something tangible -- we thought people were just being snobby. The data is out there; we just didn't know it when our kids were babies. :001_smile: As it turns out, we have ended up taking our kids to this neighboring school district for the talent-search testing (they administer the SAT just to junior-high kids for the talent search); AMC 8, 10, and 12 tests; etc. -- all stuff that our school district, with its (applaudable) "inclusive" mentality, wouldn't *dream* of doing ...

 

See the charts below. The school at left in each graph (highest stats) is one town over, less than 5 miles away, but light-years away in terms of its demographics and parental expectations (read: Asian and Indian immigrant parents make up a very, very large fraction of the total). Guess which school district we chose to buy a house in (hint: at the far right in both graphs :glare:). Overall we're happy, the kids have great friends, we love homeschooling and may never have thought of it otherwise, but ... we wish we'd had the data earlier.

(The graphs show data for the 8 public high schools in our valley.)

 

And, looking at your graphs, your "not so good" school is far better than the district we live in. We wouldn't have even been on the scale (for either topic) back when we offered AP tests.

[Laura in CA]

OK, to be fair, here are more-recent graphs I just found, showing improvement in all schools (plus, this is the first time I've posted attachments and it's fun :D). Still rather pathetic for the districts on the right. The teachers in our district protest that they're working with many "English-learners," and that it's all about demographics ... maybe partly, but how do you explain Jaime Escalante's results (Stand and Deliver)? Then in the next breath they talk about how our district is inclusive, and doesn't let kids get swept under the rug ... :glare: Meanwhile the high-achieving kids are underserved, and many turn to homeschooling or afterschooling.

 

I've stripped off the names of the high schools (along the x axis) to protect the innocent and maintain an illusion of privacy, but each bar represents one of the eight public high schools in our valley.

 

ETA: and yes, our local public high school is still at far right. Still, we're basically happy; in fact my older son, for personal reasons, begged to attend this school and started in 10th grade and is very happy there. He's getting a reasonable education and is far happier than he was at home. There are some very, very dedicated teachers and staff at this school. My younger son, who has many more AP exams in his future than his older brother does, is thriving at home. Glad we have options! :)

And, glad our options include AMC and AIME tests in this neighboring district :)

Edited December 10, 2011 by Laura in CA

[Laura in CA]

And, looking at your graphs, your "not so good" school is far better than the district we live in. We wouldn't have even been on the scale (for either topic) back when we offered AP tests.

 

Wow, that's scary. I guess I shouldn't complain ...

[creekland]

OK, to be fair, here are more-recent graphs I just found, showing improvement in all schools (plus, this is the first time I've posted attachments and it's fun :D). Still rather pathetic for the districts on the right. The teachers in our district protest that they're working with many "English-learners," and that it's all about demographics ... maybe partly, but how do you explain Jaime Escalante's results (Stand and Deliver)? Then in the next breath they talk about how our district is inclusive, and doesn't let kids get swept under the rug ... :glare: Meanwhile the high-achieving kids are underserved, and many turn to homeschooling or afterschooling.

 

I've stripped off the names of the high schools (along the x axis) to protect the innocent and maintain an illusion of privacy, but each bar represents one of the eight public high schools in our valley.

 

But we'd be lucky in any given year if we had ONE student score a 4 or 5 on any of the tests. That's why AP was dropped... College in the High School is far superior according to our guidance office. :glare: I've yet to hear that opinion from ANY college I've asked.

[Capt_Uhura]

But why do you need College in High School???? What happened to high school????

[creekland]

Wow, that's scary. I guess I shouldn't complain ...

 

Homeschooling never occurred to me until after I'd been teaching at our local high school. When my oldest reached 6th grade we talked with our then middle school principal. He assured us that talented students would do well no matter what the school did, so they didn't do much special for them. :glare: We disagreed, but stuck it out for two more years, then we pulled all three to homeschool.

 

I have absolutely no regrets. My two oldest had academic peers when they were in school. Only one from each class was able to keep pace with them and they did things outside of school to augment. Those odds just aren't good IMO. The vast majority of students in our high school are incredibly apathetic about learning and do as little as possible to get by. Class tests have been adjusted to ensure we still get As. Youngest even notices and comments on it often, but he still insists on being there (and is doing a bit outside of school to actually get a decent education). I want mine to love learning. The grades and/or AP scores, etc, are just a bonus that tends to come with having a good foundation.

[creekland]

But why do you need College in High School???? What happened to high school????

 

Well, if you ask me, our College in the High School classes are the only classes that remotely come close to my high school education back in the early 80s at a good high school.

 

And, it's not like the majority of our students take these classes - only those deemed to be higher academically. If they want to get college credit for it, they have to pass an entrance exam to get into the college. Most can't pass that, so they just take the class for high school credit. Those who do get college credit almost always get it only as an elective - not in place of their subject as they would with a 4 or 5 AP score (at colleges who grant credit).

 

Editing to add that for a comparison... For our "regular classes" I sent home the World History Final a couple of years back when we were still homeschooling my all guys. Middle son got 100%, but had his World History class 2 years earlier. Youngest got 90% and had never had a World History high school level class. Both scored higher than any ps kid I had that day and they had just finished the class. Some things just aren't pretty to see at a lower academic public school.

Edited December 10, 2011 by creekland

[regentrude]

But why do you need College in High School???? What happened to high school????

 

High school has been watered down to a level that is more appropriate for middle school. College is following suit. What students learn in the introductory courses at the university in this country, they learn in high school in other countries. (I could not give my STEM students at our 4 year univeristy the exams my niece is taking in her high school physics class in Germany - they would not be able to do them. I cover about half as much material in my class as I myself had to study when I took the same level class back home as a freshman.)

Taking appropriate level classes during high school where they are actually taught and challenged would free them to take classes at college that are actually college level, not some remedial classes.

[Nscribe]

I encounter a lot of stressed out parents while waiting in various lobbies to pick up DD. Guidance counselors say the parents are demanding more AP classes, parents say they feel the pressure to demand more just to keep their child in the "game" as compared with peers.

 

Then it seems the content is being watered down, colleges citing the need to remediate more and more. Graduation rates overall don't seem to be moving higher.

 

The whole thing just makes me grateful to set goals, execute on them and know what my child is learning.

[Capt_Uhura]

High school has been watered down to a level that is more appropriate for middle school. College is following suit. What students learn in the introductory courses at the university in this country, they learn in high school in other countries. (I could not give my STEM students at our 4 year univeristy the exams my niece is taking in her high school physics class in Germany - they would not be able to do them. I cover about half as much material in my class as I myself had to study when I took the same level class back home as a freshman.)

Taking appropriate level classes during high school where they are actually taught and challenged would free them to take classes at college that are actually college level, not some remedial classes.

 

Our college students couldn't pass an exam given to high schools in Germany? WOW!! Even at elite universities?

[creekland]

Our college students couldn't pass an exam given to high schools in Germany? WOW!! Even at elite universities?

 

This, too, is going to depend on the local school. We've had exchange students from Germany and other countries. Some are really well prepared and I'm more or less embarrassed at the level of education in our school. Others are considerably less well-prepared and fit right in. We hosted a German exchange student in our house one year. My kids were in ps at the time and she remarked that they were learning things she hadn't been taught. She's one who fit right in at our high school academically (with college bound students, and, of course, allowing for language issues).

[regentrude]

Our college students couldn't pass an exam given to high schools in Germany? WOW!! Even at elite universities?

 

Well, the elite unis can probably select the students who do have the necessary prerequisites. They can pick the ones who did have physics in high school and structure their courses accordingly so that they can cover more material in more depth.

I OTOH am dealing with STEM students who come from high schools that did not even offer any physics, or had physics scheduled so the kids had to chose between math and physics, or had armtwisted non-interested and non-capable students into AP courses to fill the classroom and watered down the class. About a third of my incoming class knows nothing about physics - less than any German 10th grader on a college track high school. So, we have to teach so that these kids can learn something. Which means the students in the top third who are prepared for more do not get the education they could get if I were allowed to teach to their level.

 

In my algebra based physics class for biology majors, my 13 year old 8th grade homeschooled daughter was the top student of the class. Even allowing for the fact that she is smart, it means that the class is essentially a high school course appropriate for 9th and 10th graders. yet I have kids failing this course.

 

I signed DD up for dual enrollment and she will take French 2 at the university. The level of the first semester class is about the same as her 6th grade French class in Germany; they did get farther in the grammar than they do here at the university.

 

Pathetic.

Edited December 10, 2011 by regentrude

Personally, I have not found subjective information to be nearly as helpful as objective. Most people consider their local schools to be good and they can give you interesting classes and loved teachers, etc.

 

Certainly, we all suffer from the Lake Wobegon problem, where every school I've ever heard of is somehow above average in some way.

 

I guess my problem is I'm not sure what's objective anymore. GPA sure isn't. With all the focus on "teaching to the test", I'm not sure SAT/ACT scores are that indicative of the overall strength of a school. In this thread, we just learned that number of AP classes offered doesn't mean much.

 

I think it is possible to learn a lot about a school by asking direct questions of current students, but you need to ask carefully directed questions. Not just "is your school good", or "do you like your teacher", but "what are you reading in English Lit"? "How much reading is there in English Lit", or "How often does your Spanish teach speak in English", "How much writing do you get to do?"

Edited December 10, 2011 by GGardner

[Sunshine State Sue]

Can I only get my schools AP report through the school? Is that info not available anywhere online?

I was able to find the AP test statistics for the schools in my county by searching the local newspaper website with something like '2011 ap test scores'. Very eye-opening!

 

I have a friend whose brilliant dd took AP Music Theory as a 9th grader at the local ps. She got As all year long and scored a 3 on the AP exam. I'd love to see more information like that!

 

We'll be looking for AP history through PA homeschoolers.

[choirfarm]

I would be VERY curious to figure out how to find this information. I've searched and the only thing I can find is from our city's economic development website. It has our district listed as having 228 graduating with average ACT as 18.7 and SAT as 1022!!:001_huh: ( I'm guessing that is from 2400 not 1600 but I don't know.)

 

As far as AP, I don't know. I know when I called to ask about my son taking the AP Chem this year, the counselor said that no one took it last year. However, this year they had 15 in the class, so hopefully some would chose to take it. As I said in a previous post 98 or those graduates went to our cc and 46 of them had to take remedial classes. ( That was in our newspaper...and yes I have searched for the ACT/SAT infor... didn't find it.) Most surrounding districts had 50 percent of their students that had to go to remedial classes.

 

Yikes... wow. My oldest said, but mom you need to know more about those statistics. How many took the test? Were there just a few outliers that really brought down the average but most people did pretty well. YOu need more information. ( AP Stats was a good class last year!)

 

Also, I just realized recently that 58.5 percent of the student body is considered economically disadvantaged..which matches the article I saw recently that 60 percent were on free lunch/breakfast programs... Wow.. I really had no idea.

 

So Creekland. I'm thinking maybe your district looks pretty good compared to mine.

Edited December 11, 2011 by choirfarm

[creekland]

Well, the elite unis can probably select the students who do have the necessary prerequisites. They can pick the ones who did have physics in high school and structure their courses accordingly so that they can cover more material in more depth.

I OTOH am dealing with STEM students who come from high schools that did not even offer any physics, or had physics scheduled so the kids had to chose between math and physics, or had armtwisted non-interested and non-capable students into AP courses to fill the classroom and watered down the class. About a third of my incoming class knows nothing about physics - less than any German 10th grader on a college track high school. So, we have to teach so that these kids can learn something. Which means the students in the top third who are prepared for more do not get the education they could get if I were allowed to teach to their level.

 

In my algebra based physics class for biology majors, my 13 year old 8th grade homeschooled daughter was the top student of the class. Even allowing for the fact that she is smart, it means that the class is essentially a high school course appropriate for 9th and 10th graders. yet I have kids failing this course.

 

I signed DD up for dual enrollment and she will take French 2 at the university. The level of the first semester class is about the same as her 6th grade French class in Germany; they did get farther in the grammar than they do here at the university.

 

Pathetic.

 

You sure are making my school seem average. It's sad.

 

But again, not all schools in Germany are the same. Our exchange student was starting her senior year here (and went back to complete it there) and Physics was new to her - as were Trig functions. She told us both were in her books, but that her class never got to them. She also told us she was surprised that our teachers care about cheating... at her school kids sat two to a desk and it was "common" (her words) for them to each take half the "stuff" on a test and study for it - then share info on the actual tests. She also admitted her region of Germany was considered the lower academic area of the country. They had never, ever, taken any sort of standardized test. Those were new to her here.

 

She was a capable student who ended up getting a 3 on the Calc AB test (we offered AP back then). I think there was a 4 that year, but the rest were lower grades. She was fortunate she was living with us. We worked on Calc (and the foundations necessary like Trig functions) together quite a few nights. If she'd had a "normal" family math-wise she'd have been as lost as the majority of our students.

 

Schools vary all over.

 

And yes, all exchange students we've had have been far better at languages. Oodles and oodles of studies have proven (not just shown, but proven) that languages are best learned/started prior to puberty. And our school district insists that 9th grade is the first year they are offered in spite of being shown the studies. Then, with block scheduling, they hardly cover anything as they still do one lesson a day, but for half a year now instead of a whole year. My guy wants to work in the Congo (where they speak French as well as their own languages). For his birthday tomorrow, part of what he's getting is a true French 2 book so he can try to pick up more on his own. He's in French 2, but I distinctly remember learning what he's doing in French 1 (in 7th grade at my good high school).

[creekland]

I guess my problem is I'm not sure what's objective anymore. GPA sure isn't. With all the focus on "teaching to the test", I'm not sure SAT/ACT scores are that indicative of the overall strength of a school. In this thread, we just learned that number of AP classes offered doesn't mean much.

 

I think it is possible to learn a lot about a school by asking direct questions of current students, but you need to ask carefully directed questions. Not just "is your school good", or "do you like your teacher", but "what are you reading in English Lit"? "How much reading is there in English Lit", or "How often does your Spanish teach speak in English", "How much writing do you get to do?"

 

GPA is NOT a good way of comparing districts IMO. It can be quite useful comparing students within a district, but not across them.

 

From my experience, ACT/SAT scores are a reasonably good way. One can't control for the students who do a lot outside of school to improve their grades (and thus become outliers for their school), but it's the best thing we have. I have yet to see a high schooler do very well on the SAT or ACT and not know the material covered. They may not do well in college later, but that's more study/work ethic stuff than whether or not they know the foundations to get into the class. Once in a very rare while I see a student who doesn't do well on the test and that score surprises me, but again, compared to their peers in their school, top students still do better than lower students. They are an extremely good correlation in our school and they were in my high school back in the day too. I can fully understand why the majority of colleges use them as a "bar" for entrance (then look at other things to distinguish other attributes). A high GPA with a lower than expected test score (without other issues like learning disabilities, illness, etc) says a lot. It's usually a sign for memorizing schoolwork long enough for classroom tests without really knowing what is being taught OR a lower level of education provided overall in that classroom. With homeschoolers, you can add in test anxiety or lack of preparation for these types of tests. With public schoolers, that's extremely rare. They've been testing their whole lives. And we're comparing public schools here...

 

I would be VERY curious to figure out how to find this information. I've searched and the only thing I can find is from our city's economic development website. It has our district listed as having 228 graduating with average ACT as 18.7 and SAT as 1022!!:001_huh: ( I'm guessing that is from 2400 not 1600 but I don't know.)

 

As far as AP, I don't know. I know when I called to ask about my son taking the AP Chem this year, the counselor said that no one took it last year. However, this year they had 15 in the class, so hopefully some would chose to take it. As I said in a previous post 98 or those graduates went to our cc and 46 of them had to take remedial classes. ( That was in our newspaper...and yes I have searched for the ACT/SAT infor... didn't find it.) Most surrounding districts had 50 percent of their students that had to go to remedial classes.

 

Yikes... wow. My oldest said, but mom you need to know more about those statistics. How many took the test? Were there just a few outliers that really brought down the average but most people did pretty well. YOu need more information. ( AP Stats was a good class last year!)

 

Also, I just realized recently that 58.5 percent of the student body is considered economically disadvantaged..which matches the article I saw recently that 60 percent were on free lunch/breakfast programs... Wow.. I really had no idea.

 

So Creekland. I'm thinking maybe your district looks pretty good compared to mine.

 

Yikes, yes, we're close to average albeit below average. Your district does seem to be worse, but it would depend on whether or not they have all students take the ACT or SAT. Our school only has our college bound students take it.

 

I found my stats by looking on our state Department of Education site. I don't know if TX offers the same or not. AP stats aren't on there, but SAT, ACT, and our state tests are.

[choirfarm]

I think those scores that I found were from 2008. Our district got some kind of award this year for bringing up their ACT scores, but I don't know what the average is now. I

 

Ok...really looked at the information on the website and read all the tables. Here it is. 188 graduates in 2010 were all the graduates not counted as special ed. 88 actually took either the ACT, SAt or both ( only counted once if they took both). The average was 21.8 for ACT and 516 for math 507 reading 476 for SAT. Out of those only 22 hit the mark the TEA wanted them to: 1110 combined score of cr and math or a composite of 24 on the ACT.

Edited December 11, 2011 by choirfarm

[creekland]

I think those scores that I found were from 2008. Our district got some kind of award this year for bringing up their ACT scores, but I don't know what the average is now. I

 

Ok...really looked at the information on the website and read all the tables. Here it is. 188 graduates in 2010 were all the graduates not counted as special ed. 88 actually took either the ACT, SAt or both ( only counted once if they took both). The average was 21.8 for ACT and 516 for math 507 reading 476 for SAT. Out of those only 22 hit the mark the TEA wanted them to: 1110 combined score of cr and math or a composite of 24 on the ACT.

 

Well, that does it. You have my school beat. I suppose that's actually a good thing as I'd hate to think more schools were worse.

[Dmmetler]

WOW! I knew I'd get tons of info here. You ladies rock!!! thank you! I will definitely try to get my hands on that report. From what I've read, I've not been that impressed w/ AP classes. The very little I know of them, if you're able to regurgitate the textbook on the test, you pass. My son's strength is in making connections, really having discussions about it, going deeper. Am I right in this or does it depend on how the school/teacher runs the AP class? HSers can sit for AP exams correct and just self-study?

 

Can I only get my schools AP report through the school? Is that info not available anywhere online?

 

I took two APs "independent study" even while attending a public high school, so yes, unless they've changed the rules, you don't have to take an AP class to take an AP exam-but you do need to have a testing site register to GIVE the exam. This was in the late 1980s, though.

Edited December 11, 2011 by dmmetler

[regentrude]

She also admitted her region of Germany was considered the lower academic area of the country. They had never, ever, taken any sort of standardized test. Those were new to her here.

 

Standardized tests do not exist in Germany. In none of the states.

 

At the end of college track prep high school, students have to take mandatory exams in several subjects. In our state, three 4-5 hour written exams and two 30 minute oral exams are required. Math and German must be among the subjects, and one science and one foreign language. The exams have open ended questions, not just multiple choice.

Edited December 11, 2011 by regentrude

[Laura in CA]

Our college students couldn't pass an exam given to high schools in Germany? WOW!! Even at elite universities?

 

I'm not defending U.S. schools -- there are good reasons why we all homeschool! -- but we need to not compare apples and oranges. Regentrude, as she says later, is talking about the college-track high schools in Germany. And we simply don't have these here (unless you count Exeter, Lowell, Thomas Jefferson, Boston Latin, etc.).

 

 

At the end of college track prep high school, students have to take mandatory exams in several subjects.

 

 

This, too, is going to depend on the local school. We've had exchange students from Germany and other countries. Some are really well prepared and I'm more or less embarrassed at the level of education in our school. Others are considerably less well-prepared and fit right in. We hosted a German exchange student in our house one year. My kids were in ps at the time and she remarked that they were learning things she hadn't been taught. She's one who fit right in at our high school academically (with college bound students, and, of course, allowing for language issues).

 

Creekland, I wonder if your less-well-prepared student was at a non-college-prep high school in Germany. I imagine foreign exchange isn't limited to kids attending a Gymnasium (college-prep school). Kids in most German schools (and Swiss and others) are tracked starting in 5th grade. Yes, there can be some flexibility, but it requires effort & initiative. Anyway the whole concept is utterly foreign to us Americans. Here is a chart that shows the different tracks.

 

Frankly I wish we had more vocational schools as viable alternatives for teens, and a school-leaving age of 15 or 16 -- I see seniors struggling in algebra for the fourth year in a row, when they should be learning a skill or trade. Americans sort or track themselves anyway by high school -- some kids take four AP classes during 11th grade at our humble local ps, while others stick with auto shop. (My son is taking one AP class *and* auto shop. :001_smile:

 

Also, the college-prep German high schools, since they enroll the small number of college-bound kids (20%? 25%? I don't have time to check), can be much more rigorous. Kids also attend school until 18 or 19, and I've always heard that the (intense) last few years of German college-prep HS are equivalent to the first two years of a typical U.S. college (*not* MIT or other elite schools!).

 

Side note: a Swiss friend was amazed that my son's HS has over 2000 students. His son's (college-prep) gymnase is much smaller. Heck, 2000 isn't big -- my husband's HS had 4000 kids! We enroll every single kid, regardless of future prospects, and solely by geography. His son, at a Swiss gymnase by age 13 or so, has to travel over an hour each way to school by bus and train (and some kids still go home for lunch!). The long commutes are b/c they're pulling kids from all over the region ...

 

This got long! Hope it clears up some of the confusion ...

Edited December 11, 2011 by Laura in CA

[regentrude]

Creekland, I wonder if your less-well-prepared student was at a non-college-prep high school in Germany.

 

But Creekland mentioned the student being a Senior. If she had attended a non-college track high school, she would have graduated after finishing 10th grade.

 

Also, the college-prep German high schools, since they enroll the small number of college-bound kids (20%? 25%? I don't have time to check), can be much more rigorous.

 

In my home town, 50% of students attend a college track high school (Gymnasium).

 

Kids also attend school until 18 or 19,

 

Only in some states do they still do the 13 year school (and school starts a year later; there is no Kindergarten). Most states have now the 12 year school (and some, like my home state, never had the stupid 13 years)

 

and I've always heard that the (intense) last few years of German college-prep HS are equivalent to the first two years of a typical U.S. college (*not* MIT or other elite schools!).

which is precisely what I was talking about in my earlier post! Edited December 11, 2011 by regentrude

[Bootsie]

OK, to be fair, here are more-recent graphs I just found, showing improvement in all schools (plus, this is the first time I've posted attachments and it's fun :D). Still rather pathetic for the districts on the right. The teachers in our district protest that they're working with many "English-learners," and that it's all about demographics ... maybe partly, but how do you explain Jaime Escalante's results (Stand and Deliver)? Then in the next breath they talk about how our district is inclusive, and doesn't let kids get swept under the rug ... :glare: Meanwhile the high-achieving kids are underserved, and many turn to homeschooling or afterschooling.

 

I've stripped off the names of the high schools (along the x axis) to protect the innocent and maintain an illusion of privacy, but each bar represents one of the eight public high schools in our valley.

 

ETA: and yes, our local public high school is still at far right. Still, we're basically happy; in fact my older son, for personal reasons, begged to attend this school and started in 10th grade and is very happy there. He's getting a reasonable education and is far happier than he was at home. There are some very, very dedicated teachers and staff at this school. My younger son, who has many more AP exams in his future than his older brother does, is thriving at home. Glad we have options! :)

And, glad our options include AMC and AIME tests in this neighboring district :)

 

From what it looks like, these graphs are comparing the percent of students taking the AP exams who score a 4 or 5. This can be very misleading. Some schools are very selective about which students are encouraged to take the AP exams; in these districts a large percentage of those taking the exams will get a 4 or 5. Other districts encourage a lot of students to take a lot of AP exams, which will mean that a lower percentage will score a 4 or 5.

 

My local district brags that it is in the top 1% of public schools in the country for students being ready for college. I researched this ranking and found out that the ranking is based on the percentage of students taking the AP exams. If a high percentage takes the exams, then the district is ranked high in this particular study (regardless of what the scores are for the students). The district has played a game of having as many students as possible take as many AP exams as possible so that they are one of the "top schools in the country." So "objective" statistics can be misleading.

[Laura in CA]

From what it looks like, these graphs are comparing the percent of students taking the AP exams who score a 4 or 5. This can be very misleading. Some schools are very selective about which students are encouraged to take the AP exams; in these districts a large percentage of those taking the exams will get a 4 or 5. Other districts encourage a lot of students to take a lot of AP exams, which will mean that a lower percentage will score a 4 or 5.

 

My local district brags that it is in the top 1% of public schools in the country for students being ready for college. I researched this ranking and found out that the ranking is based on the percentage of students taking the AP exams. If a high percentage takes the exams, then the district is ranked high in this particular study (regardless of what the scores are for the students). The district has played a game of having as many students as possible take as many AP exams as possible so that they are one of the "top schools in the country." So "objective" statistics can be misleading.

 

This possible skewing of results should be corrected for in the second graph in each set. From the website where I got the graphs: "Another way to assess the strength of a high school’s AP program is to look at the number of AP Exams with scores of 4 or 5 for every 100 students in the 11th and 12th grade." So the school at far left has not only a high percentage of high scores relative to the number of test-takers, and a lot of test-takers, but also a high number of 4s and 5s relative to the student body as a whole. (Trust me, it's a good school by any measure ... killer math and debate and sports teams; each year sends multiple kids to Harvard & Stanford, etc.)

Edited December 12, 2011 by Laura in CA
clarity .... I hope ...

[Laura in CA]

But Creekland mentioned the student being a Senior. If she had attended a non-college track high school, she would have graduated after finishing 10th grade.

 

Oh, I didn't catch that. And btw, how I wish we had that here (option to graduate after 10th grade) ... I see so many older teens, esp. boys, spinning their wheels having "checked out" of high school. What a waste of time, money, energy ... when they could be learning a useful, relevant skill or trade.

 

In my home town, 50% of students attend a college track high school (Gymnasium).

OK, that's higher than I had heard. I forget that I last lived in Germany in the 1980s (!). It sounds like German schools have gotten more flexible, too. Frankly I'm a big fan of (flexible) tracking (which is what we homeschoolers do, of course, de facto!); Americans could learn a lot from the German system.

 

 

Only in some states do they still do the 13 year school (and school starts a year later; there is no Kindergarten). Most states have now the 12 year school (and some, like my home state, never had the stupid 13 years)

 

This meant, with compulsory military service for boys, that many young men didn't start university until age 20 ... this also I think has changed (?).

 

which is precisely what I was talking about in my earlier post!

 

Yes, I know ... I just thought that might not be clear (based on a PP's question). I just didn't want folks to totally despair about the U.S. university system! I enrolled at a German uni (in the 80s), and while the students were bright and well-prepared, I wouldn't say they were light-years ahead of their U.S. counterparts (of course, I had attended an "elite" U.S. uni). They were definitely ahead (and older) compared with U.S. students in the same year of university ... One thing that made a big impression on me: for the PhD exam in chemistry, candidates were expected to have memorized the entire periodic table, and could be asked any question about any element. At the time it struck me as needless busywork; after re-learning chemistry with my son last year, I realized that such knowledge would give a chemist a real feel and insight for the behavior and properties of the elements ... I can't imagine a U.S. university expecting that of its students (I'll probably be corrected here too ... :D)

 

I think I've gotten way off track ... This probably has nothing to do with the original question in this thread. Sorry! :001_smile:

[Teachin'Mine]

In high school chemistry we had to memorize the periodic chart. For our test, we were given a blank one and had to fill it in with the basic information. :)

[creekland]

Oh, I didn't catch that. And btw, how I wish we had that here (option to graduate after 10th grade) ... I see so many older teens, esp. boys, spinning their wheels having "checked out" of high school. What a waste of time, money, energy ... when they could be learning a useful, relevant skill or trade.

 

 

 

Yes, she was college track and went back to her high school in Germany, finished her last year and went on to college. As far as I know, she graduated with languages and math as majors. We've sort of lost track over the years. We hear from her about once a year now (she's all grown up and moved on now). She's lived and worked in a few different countries. I'm not sure if she's finally settled on a place or not. If I get time, I'll send her an e-mail sometime in the next couple of days.

 

Right now, my time is suddenly rushed. The teacher I was supposed to be in for starting in Jan had her baby this weekend, so I'm in for 8th grade full time starting tomorrow... and I don't have middle school all figured out yet. The math I'm ok with (other than the quirks of our book), but all the other stuff has now become on the job training. AND, I'd planned on finishing Christmas shopping on Tuesday - during the day. :glare: Obviously, that's changed now.

 

:iagree:That I wish we could "graduate" many of our kids into trades or similar after 9th or 10th grades. It's really frustrating that our system insists that everyone be on a college track when not everyone is designed for it.

[creekland]

In high school chemistry we had to memorize the periodic chart. For our test' date=' we were given a blank one and had to fill it in with the basic information. :)[/quote']

 

We did too. The only thing we didn't have to know were atomic weights except for the most common elements. I still know most of them.

[regentrude]

And btw, how I wish we had that here (option to graduate after 10th grade) ... I see so many older teens, esp. boys, spinning their wheels having "checked out" of high school. What a waste of time, money, energy ... when they could be learning a useful, relevant skill or trade.

 

Yes! And doing that would automatically make the last two years more effective for those students who want to be in school. Still not as effective as early tracking, but better than the current situation.

 

Just to clarify a common misconception: A German student who did not attend a college preparatory high school track (which starts in 5th grade) and finished with the 10th grade diploma can still obtain the college prep diploma through a three year program. My niece just completed such a program; basically it just took her one extra year of school, not really a big deal. So, no, children are not doomed at 10 years of age for a certain career path.

 

Btw, speaking of my niece: she is now majoring in English language and culture at a German university. In order to be admitted as a language major, she had to undergo an entrance exam and demonstrate oral and written fluency in the language she will be studying at the university (this is the same for any language program).

Edited December 12, 2011 by regentrude