Will this child ever get it? (The continuing saga of raising dd12)

[5LittleMonkeys]

Warning: This is long and sounds like a lot of venting...which it is. :D

 

Okay, so we are pretty much coping effectively with the ADD Inattentive tendencies, and have gotten SOOOO much better with the emotional manipulation issues. So, in the last 3 years dd12 has made some big strides in conquering her bad habits, bad behaviors and controlling her emotions. I've tried to overlook this next issue because of all the other things we've dealt with, but I can't overlook it any long because its really having an effect on dd8. I'm having such a hard time dealing with the way dd12 treats dd8. I have tried talking, natural consequences, removal of privileges, mandatory kindnesses, modeling the type of behavior I expect...the list goes on. I don't know how to get through to her on this issue.

 

I have tried talking to her about it during times when everything is fine. I've asked her what it is about dd8 that makes her treat her with such contempt, but she just always clams up and shrugs her shoulders. Yelling, screaming, slamming doors in her face, teasing, offering to play and then saying no, making fun of EVERYTHING she does, belittling...all are things dd12 does on a daily basis to dd8. When she gets called out on the behavior and made to be accountable for it she always acts remorseful and says she is sorry, won't do it again, feels bad for being so mean, yadda, yadda, yadda. She will make an effort for a little while to be kind, but the problem is that dd8 is now apprehensive of her and doesn't trust her. Dd12 will then get mad because dd8 is suspicious of her and doesn't fall down and kiss her feet for being nice to her.

 

The most recent issue has has to do with their new baby rats. Dd12's rat had to be put down a week ago. We decided to let her get another one (mostly because we didn't want the existing one to get lonely) and, because dd8 had fulfilled the requirements we gave her in order to get her own rat we let her go ahead and get a baby too. Dd 12 and dd13 have the large cage in their room. It was decided by the three of them that dd8 could keep her rat in the communal cage as long as she knocked on the older girl's door before coming in to get her rat. Not a problem, common courtesy...dd8 always knocks anyway.

 

So, dd12 has decided to take it upon herself to dictate to dd8 when she can and can't come in the room to get her rat even though she always knocks. She has yelled at her and told her she can't play with her over and over, even after me telling her that it isn't up to her. It's as if she can't help herself and has to try to control dd8. I think she builds herself up by tearing dd8 down, and she definitely uses her emotional manipulation on her even though she has gotten much better about controlling that behavior with dh and I. I just don't get it...she KNOWS she is going to get in trouble for treating dd8 that way. (This is just one example of literally hundreds of incidents of a similar nature.)

 

So, dd13 came to me this morning to tell me that she is even getting sick of the way dd12 treats dd8. She said that this morning she was making fun of dd8 for not having as nice a room and that she doesn't get to keep her rat in her own room. Dd13 made the suggestion of letting dd8 and dd12 switch rooms for a week. Dd13's and dd12's room is NICE...42 inch tv, x-box 360\Netflix, loft beds, each has a laptop, futon with ottomans. (Most of this has been purchased by extended family members...not by us) It's a big room too, 18x13. Dd8's room on the other hand is smaller, 11x12, and it has a bunk bed which she is sharing with ds5 right now but has had to share with dd3 in the past. She has an older computer but she rarely uses it because she has no games for it and the internet connection is iffy. So, the two older girls definitely have a nicer set-up. Dd13 truly deserves all the nice things she has, but in all honesty dd12 does not.

 

Anyway, at first I told dd13 no, but then I started thinking about it and wondered if maybe that might be a good lesson. Let dd12 walk in dd8's shoes for a week. Let her be the one that gets left out of the fun in the big girl's room, let her have to deal with the little kids (ds5 and dd3). This would also be the only way I can "remove" her nice things without it affecting dd13 too. Then again, I think that may cause even more animosity.

 

I'm just not sure what to do to get through to her. I've told her before that she doesn't have to like her little sister but she does have to treat her with respect. I don't know how to MAKE that happen.

 

Suggestions PLEASE.

[Parrothead]

Is your dd12 seeing a counselor? If not, may I suggest that she start soon.

[5kidsforME]

IMO, dd12 loses everything. I would move dd8 and ds5 in the other nicer room. I would strip the small room of everything but the bed. Let her know that the bed could go and her door too if she doesn't start changing. Now she has to knock for permission to enter their room and get her rat.

 

Personally, i don't think any child "deserves" all those extras in their room. :confused: I don't care who purchased it.

[5LittleMonkeys]

Is your dd12 seeing a counselor? If not, may I suggest that she start soon.

 

No, she isn't. Insurance doesn't pay for it and we don't have the $.

[5LittleMonkeys]

IMO, dd12 loses everything. I would move dd8 and ds5 in the other nicer room. I would strip the small room of everything but the bed. Let her know that the bed could go and her door too if she doesn't start changing. Now she has to knock for permission to enter their room and get her rat.

 

Personally, i don't think any child "deserves" all those extras in their room. :confused: I don't care who purchased it.

 

Well, dd13 is in the same room as dd12 so I can't\won't move dd8 AND ds5 in there.

 

I normally would agree with your last comment with one exception. Dd13 (my oldest) truly does deserve those things. She is my right hand. Responsible, does everything asked of her, takes the initiative to take care of things, helps with the youngers without complaint, does her schoolwork efficiently and without me having to tell her to do it, never asks for anything, gets no costly extra curricular activities...she deserves them because she truly works hard and often goes above and beyond to earn the privilege of using all of the things in that room.

[Jaz]

Would you allow this behavior to continue if a friend's child was treating your dd8 this way? I agree with the other posters that your dd12 should be moved to another room and face serious consequences. Could dd8 and dd13 room together?

 

It's not fair for your dd8 to grow up being abused by her sister. My mom grew up this way and has great pain from it. I can't imagine how difficult it must be for you. :grouphug:

[StephanieZ]

I think a long term move is an even better idea. Move 8 yo in with 13 yo. If you have a room where 12 yo can be solo, that would be ideal. If you need to put her in with a younger child, I worry that she will have too much leeway to bully the roommate. If you do put her in with a young child, I would make sure that she knows that if she breaks kindness rules, she will end up sleeping somewhere awful with zero goodies.

 

:grouphug: sounds like a really tough situation. I think your impulse to protect the siblings from cruelty is a good impulse.

 

Another option will be to move the rats into the 8 yo's room, or to simply take away the goodies from the 12 yo, putting them in storage, as a punishment. I general, I don't like the idea of giving 12 yo's goodies to any other child, as I am afraid it will breed resentment. Nonetheless, taking away the goodies, and rearranging roommates makes a lot of sense.

 

So sorry you are struggling with this. Nothing bothers me more than cruelty among the kids.

[StephanieZ]

Ps. I see you have a 3 yo. I would seriously think about putting the 3&5 yo's together, the 8&13 yo's together, and letting the 12 yo have a small room solo. Purpose being to protect the other kids from her unsupervised cruelty, and to allow the 12 yo a refuge, which might make her nicer. I wouldn't make the 12 yo's room horrible to start with, but I would feel free to take away goodies as consequences for continued cruelty.

[Denisemomof4]

I could never allow any child of mine to continue to treat another badly.

 

I don't think you should take the room away now, but I do think you should give her the warning. Younger dd is sharing a room. Why not let the two youngers have the nicer room? But there needs to be a fair warning first.

 

In the past, disrespect in our home was always repaid by doing something nice. I've had one kid do another's chores for a week, give a favorite toy, be forced to play a game with the littles WITH A GOOD ATTITUDE, etc. I've always made they repay their disrespectful/unking act with a good one. I've always decided on this alone.

 

As far as the rat issue, I wouldn't think twice. Those rats would be in dd8's room and dd12 would NOT have access to them without *MY* permission. If she chose to take her anger out on dd over that, she WOULD lose the room.

 

Listen. My RAD dd does some really nasty, gross, UGLY things to dd12. Dd12 is really fed up with her. Still, I *insist* on dd12 behaving kindly regardless of what she's feeling in her heart. And trust me - she has reason to act out! I just would not allow any child of mine to bully a sibling in the house. It's so bad of her to do this to a child so much younger than herself! It surely sounds like a jealousy issue to me.

 

I'm sorry you're so discouraged!!!:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug: Stay strong, Mom!!!

[Denisemomof4]

Ps. I see you have a 3 yo. I would seriously think about putting the 3&5 yo's together, the 8&13 yo's together, and letting the 12 yo have a small room solo. Purpose being to protect the other kids from her unsupervised cruelty, and to allow the 12 yo a refuge, which might make her nicer. I wouldn't make the 12 yo's room horrible to start with, but I would feel free to take away goodies as consequences for continued cruelty.

 

oh - I *love* this idea!!!!!!

[5kidsforME]

Ps. I see you have a 3 yo. I would seriously think about putting the 3&5 yo's together, the 8&13 yo's together, and letting the 12 yo have a small room solo. Purpose being to protect the other kids from her unsupervised cruelty, and to allow the 12 yo a refuge, which might make her nicer. I wouldn't make the 12 yo's room horrible to start with, but I would feel free to take away goodies as consequences for continued cruelty.

 

I agree with this except the last bit. What more should the 12 yo be allowed to do to her siblings to make it bad enough?

 

I would have her move to the small room iwth nothing but a bed and her door. If she gets worse she loses them. If she gets better she earns things back. It would be a long, long, long, loooong time before she was ever allowed to move back in the room she shares with dd13.

[Denisemomof4]

Ps. I see you have a 3 yo. I would seriously think about putting the 3&5 yo's together, the 8&13 yo's together, and letting the 12 yo have a small room solo. Purpose being to protect the other kids from her unsupervised cruelty, and to allow the 12 yo a refuge, which might make her nicer. I wouldn't make the 12 yo's room horrible to start with, but I would feel free to take away goodies as consequences for continued cruelty.

 

then again....... it's almost as if the 13 yo is getting punished because of the 12 yo.

 

:confused:

[Denisemomof4]

Well, dd13 is in the same room as dd12 so I can't\won't move dd8 AND ds5 in there.

 

I normally would agree with your last comment with one exception. Dd13 (my oldest) truly does deserve those things. She is my right hand. Responsible, does everything asked of her, takes the initiative to take care of things, helps with the youngers without complaint, does her schoolwork efficiently and without me having to tell her to do it, never asks for anything, gets no costly extra curricular activities...she deserves them because she truly works hard and often goes above and beyond to earn the privilege of using all of the things in that room.

 

then I would move dd8 in with her. She deserves it, dd12 does NOT.

 

I agree with you 100% I have two deserving, kind, loving, GOOD kids who are blessed more than my two who cause many, many, MANY problems, don't listen, or are disrespectful. Good behavior and responsibility gets rewarded with more privileges, etc. With bad behavior - consequences. Usually grounding to the room with NO privileges (mainly electronics) there.

[5kidsforME]

then again....... it's almost as if the 13 yo is getting punished because of the 12 yo.

 

:confused:

 

 

Why is the 13 yo being punished because the 8 yo will be in her room? Isn't this what we are all suggesting, that they love and get along with their siblings? If we (collective we) continue to put age limits with our children on what is acceptable then it is no wonder the 12 yo feels justified in bullying the 8 yo.

[T'smom]

I'm sure there's more to the story that I don't know......but I would make sure that dd12 felt my love for her. If she feels that you favor one or more of her siblings- it's entirely possible that she will hate them forever. I would take her out on a mom-date and have a heart-to-heart. Do something fun that she wants to do and tell her what a beautiful person she is and that she is too beautiful to act ugly. Tell her that you wouldn't allow anyone to treat her badly and you're not going to let anyone treat dd8 badly either. Lay down rules and consequences. Try to be as unemotional as possible (about the consequences). I like what a PP poster said about if a child does something mean, they have to find something nice to do. I wouldn't recommend just up and imposing a consequence without giving her a warning that it's coming. Tell her that you feel you've been too lenient when it comes to the way she's treating dd8 and that from this point on, every time she does x, y happens.

I don't know. I'm sure there's more that would make what I've said not applicable, but it's something to think about.

[SunD]

Is there anywhere at all to put these things that is not in someone's bedroom? I would want the rats, the gigantic TV, the XBox, etc to only be available to those who do their chores, finish their schoolwork, and have been NICE to the other family members that day.

 

An office? A dining room? A basement or garage? Move DD8 and DS into the space created when you move all that stuff out of the 12 and 13yos' room? I think having that stuff separate would be ideal. You're not taking it away from 12 and giving it to 8, the new rule is that access is based on behavior, equally and fairly.

[Parrothead]

No, she isn't. Insurance doesn't pay for it and we don't have the $.

Contact your county social services and see if there is anything they can do to help. They may be able to recommend a doctor or simply a counselor with a sliding scale.

 

From what you said it sounds like there is a lot more going on than what meets the eye. Your entire family could benefit. You do not want to risk your 12-year old escalating the mental/emotional abuse of your 8-year old to also include physical abuse.

Edited December 8, 2011 by Parrothead

[5LittleMonkeys]

Contact your county social services and see if there is anything they can do to help. They may be able to recommend a doctor or simply a counselor with a sliding scale.

 

From what you said it sounds like there is a lot more going on than what meets the eye. Your entire family could benefit. You do not want to risk your 12-year old escalating the mental/emotional abuse of your 8-year old to also include physical abuse.

 

I will look into this. I called the other day to see about getting 3 of my dc into the county health department because they all had strep and I didn't have the 75.00 for co-pays, but they said that if I have insurance they would have to charge me the same as if I went to the doctor's office. :confused: It doesn't hurt to call and ask about counseling though...I'll check into it.

[5LittleMonkeys]

I'm sure there's more to the story that I don't know......but I would make sure that dd12 felt my love for her. If she feels that you favor one or more of her siblings- it's entirely possible that she will hate them forever. I would take her out on a mom-date and have a heart-to-heart. Do something fun that she wants to do and tell her what a beautiful person she is and that she is too beautiful to act ugly. Tell her that you wouldn't allow anyone to treat her badly and you're not going to let anyone treat dd8 badly either. Lay down rules and consequences. Try to be as unemotional as possible (about the consequences). I like what a PP poster said about if a child does something mean' date=' they have to find something nice to do. I wouldn't recommend just up and imposing a consequence without giving her a warning that it's coming. Tell her that you feel you've been too lenient when it comes to the way she's treating dd8 and that from this point on, every time she does x, y happens.

I don't know. I'm sure there's more that would make what I've said not applicable, but it's something to think about.[/quote']

 

I like everything you said here, especially the bolded part. She, of all my dc, makes me the angriest, but seems to need more of my love than the others. I do give it to her. She's my shopping buddy and we often go to lunch together (Dollar menu and McD's:ack2:). I also love the idea of telling her how beautiful she is - too beautiful to behave the way she does. She is an amazing, creative, imaginative person and has the capacity for great kindness. That's why it really breaks my heart to see her mistreat another person like this...one that actually would be in heaven for her big sister to show her some kindness.

 

Do you have a highly emotional, strong willed dc too? You seem to have some insight. :D

[Trish]

Well, what would you do if it weren't DD12 doing this stuff to your 8-year-old, but perhaps a foster child that you were caring for in your home? Wouldn't you find a way to put rules in place that would protect DD8?

 

I know you say you've "tried everything" to get DD12 to see the light, but I think there are a few things you haven't tried. (and no I'm not talking about corporal punishment or anything like that) See, I don't think DD12 HAS to get on board with your "point of view" on this. She has to get on board with what you will and will not TOLERATE.

 

If it's as bad as you say, I think I'd go all John Rosemond on her. (not that he's all that, but I like this idea of his) Maybe put DD8 and DD13 to share a room together (with the rats!), DD12 gets DD8's room with NOT MUCH IN IT. Just the basic stuff she needs to carry out her day, like basic clothes and school stuff. Then, make a chart, and each day you can determine if DD12 has treated DD8 "like a family member."

 

If she gets a full week of checks (that she succeeded in treating DD8 like a "family member,") then she earns "something" back. An outfit. An Ipod. A Whatever. Because she has nothing.

 

After a few months of this, she will perhaps have lots of her stuff back. And she will have developed a very good habit. How to treat a little sister "like a family member."

 

Don't look at it as a punishment. View it as a useful skill that you are blessing her with -- how to treat those we live with "as family members."

 

Maybe your Mama Bear Instinct isn't out on this one because they're both your cubs. But it sounds like DD8 needs more protection, and DD12 needs a Life Lesson.

 

Good luck!

 

:grouphug:

Edited December 8, 2011 by Trish

[Down_the_Rabbit_Hole]

I agree with this except the last bit. What more should the 12 yo be allowed to do to her siblings to make it bad enough?

 

I would have her move to the small room iwth nothing but a bed and her door. If she gets worse she loses them. If she gets better she earns things back. It would be a long, long, long, loooong time before she was ever allowed to move back in the room she shares with dd13.

:iagree:

And :grouphug:. Dealing with a bully in the home is tough.

[Elizabeth in MN]

Have you had your dd12 evaluated for Autism? She sounds very Aspie to me.

[5LittleMonkeys]

Thank you all for your responses. I'm actually glad to hear that you all think the room swap wouldn't be entirely out of line considering her behavior.

 

Just to address a couple things some of you mentioned.

 

I don't have anywhere to put all of the goodies from the oldest's room, and like I said, dd13 really works hard to keep those privileges.

 

I could move dd12 into a room by herself but she would look on that as a good thing. She hates having to share with anyone and has often begged to be the one that has her own room. I think moving her into dd8's room with ds5 would work. She doesn't treat him badly...it's just dd8 that she has problems with.

 

The 13yo doesn't mind having dd8 in with her and wouldn't look on it as any type of punishment, she gets along with her fine.

 

Ultimately though, I really don't WANT to play musical rooms. I can restrict her from using the tv, laptop and x-box even if she stays in that room...and have in the past. She just has to hang out downstairs if dd13 wants to use the tv or x-box. As far as the rats go, someone mentioned moving the rats to dd8's room. I could do that...it's very squishy in there but I could make it work.

[5kidsforME]

Thank you all for your responses. I'm actually glad to hear that you all think the room swap wouldn't be entirely out of line considering her behavior.

 

Just to address a couple things some of you mentioned.

 

I don't have anywhere to put all of the goodies from the oldest's room, and like I said, dd13 really works hard to keep those privileges.

 

I could move dd12 into a room by herself but she would look on that as a good thing. She hates having to share with anyone and has often begged to be the one that has her own room. I think moving her into dd8's room with ds5 would work. She doesn't treat him badly...it's just dd8 that she has problems with.

 

The 13yo doesn't mind having dd8 in with her and wouldn't look on it as any type of punishment, she gets along with her fine.

 

Ultimately though, I really don't WANT to play musical rooms. I can restrict her from using the tv, laptop and x-box even if she stays in that room...and have in the past. She just has to hang out downstairs if dd13 wants to use the tv or x-box. As far as the rats go, someone mentioned moving the rats to dd8's room. I could do that...it's very squishy in there but I could make it work.

 

 

I am not trying to be mean, it is hard to get tone across on a message board, so please bear that in mind.

 

It sounds to me like you want big changes but don't really want to work at it. Keeping your dd12 in the same room with dd13, is what she wants. Thinking that you can keep her from entering her own room is silly.

 

IMO, I really think your dd needs a drastic change for her to see you are serious. In her own room with nothing but a bed will not be as appealing as you think. Even if it is her own room. Even if she is by herself. Believe me.

 

Saying you don't want to play musical rooms, I can't help but think, well...that's just lazy. :tongue_smilie: Seriously, if i was as concerned as you sound (in fact if i was in your shoes I would actually be much more concerned) I would be willing to do just about anything to help my dd see that she needed to change and that I loved her enough to do the drastic.

[DusksAngel]

Thank you all for your responses. I'm actually glad to hear that you all think the room swap wouldn't be entirely out of line considering her behavior.

 

Just to address a couple things some of you mentioned.

 

I don't have anywhere to put all of the goodies from the oldest's room, and like I said, dd13 really works hard to keep those privileges.

 

I could move dd12 into a room by herself but she would look on that as a good thing. She hates having to share with anyone and has often begged to be the one that has her own room. I think moving her into dd8's room with ds5 would work. She doesn't treat him badly...it's just dd8 that she has problems with.

 

The 13yo doesn't mind having dd8 in with her and wouldn't look on it as any type of punishment, she gets along with her fine.

 

Ultimately though, I really don't WANT to play musical rooms. I can restrict her from using the tv, laptop and x-box even if she stays in that room...and have in the past. She just has to hang out downstairs if dd13 wants to use the tv or x-box. As far as the rats go, someone mentioned moving the rats to dd8's room. I could do that...it's very squishy in there but I could make it work.

 

It may feel like your rewarding her behavior by allowing her to have her own room, but it may actually be what she NEEDS. Let her have this with the understanding that if things don't change, she will lose her private space and every.other.thing. including her bed, if needs be.

[Trish]

I was the one who mentioned having DD12 earn back her "things" with daily checkmarks indicating she had treated DD8 "like a family member" and would need to show a week's worth of checks to earn something.

 

Oftentimes the behavior is so ingrained that within an hour or two of the first day (or 10 minutes!) the unwanted behavior will rear its ugly head, and whoops! The whole incentive for the week is gone. (Therefore she can behave badly for the rest of the week, since she can't get a full week of checks. That is how she will think.) Don't let that happen!

 

If she behaves badly toward DD8, tell her she can still have a good day, but now she must do something Extra Special Nice for DD8. Encourage her to be creative and have fun with it. Or keep it simple if she's in a bad mood. Do one of her chores. Or do something special WITH her. Or for her. Or whatever.

 

And I agree with the poster who said keep showing DD12 THE LOVE. Remember this is not a punishment, it is a correction and a blessing, so encourage her when you catch her doing something nice for someone! Be positive. And remind her you would not wanting anyone treating HER like anything less than a "family member" so that's why it's important to have that value for EVERYONE in the family.

 

It's all about the love, but correction is needed to get there!

[Meriwether]

So, dd13 came to me this morning to tell me that she is even getting sick of the way dd12 treats dd8. She said that this morning she was making fun of dd8 for not having as nice a room and that she doesn't get to keep her rat in her own room. Dd13 made the suggestion of letting dd8 and dd12 switch rooms for a week. Dd13's and dd12's room is NICE...42 inch tv, x-box 360\Netflix, loft beds, each has a laptop, futon with ottomans. (Most of this has been purchased by extended family members...not by us) It's a big room too, 18x13. Dd8's room on the other hand is smaller, 11x12, and it has a bunk bed which she is sharing with ds5 right now but has had to share with dd3 in the past. She has an older computer but she rarely uses it because she has no games for it and the internet connection is iffy. So, the two older girls definitely have a nicer set-up. Dd13 truly deserves all the nice things she has, but in all honesty dd12 does not.

 

Suggestions PLEASE.

 

 

I'd make it permanent. Or at least longer than a week. My Dd8 is going to bed at 7:00 tonight because she got snippy when Ds7 woke her up this morning (I asked him to). She yelled at him and said she was always tired. I've got a cure for that.:D I would not let Dd8 be bullied in her own home, but I know it isn't as easy as that.:grouphug:

[5LittleMonkeys]

Well, what would you do if it weren't DD12 doing this stuff to your 8-year-old, but perhaps a foster child that you were caring for in your home? Wouldn't you find a way to put rules in place that would protect DD8? Yes, absolutely. In fact, dd8 had a friend that was bullying her and I put an end to any interaction at all.

 

I know you say you've "tried everything" to get DD12 to see the light, but I think there are a few things you haven't tried. (and no I'm not talking about corporal punishment or anything like that) See, I don't think DD12 HAS to get on board with your "point of view" on this. She has to get on board with what you will and will not TOLERATE. So, stop trying to understand WHY she feels jealous or threatened or whatever by dd8 and just implement a zero tolerance policy on the bullying. (You know, I kept sighting specific things that she was doing...teasing, belittling, yelling...this is the first time I've called it bullying. I don't like the idea that one of my dc is a bully.:crying:

 

If it's as bad as you say, I think I'd go all John Rosemond on her. (not that he's all that, but I like this idea of his) Maybe put DD8 and DD13 to share a room together (with the rats!), DD12 gets DD8's room with NOT MUCH IN IT. Just the basic stuff she needs to carry out her day, like basic clothes and school stuff. Then, make a chart, and each day you can determine if DD12 has treated DD8 "like a family member."

 

If she gets a full week of checks (that she succeeded in treating DD8 like a "family member,") then she earns "something" back. An outfit. An Ipod. A Whatever. Because she has nothing.

 

After a few months of this, she will perhaps have lots of her stuff back. And she will have developed a very good habit. How to treat a little sister "like a family member." Can I accomplish this without moving her out of her room? I mean if I only allow her to be in her room to sleep at first and then she can slowly earn back the privilege of going in there to watch a movie, then later go in there to get on her laptop..etc.

 

Don't look at it as a punishment. View it as a useful skill that you are blessing her with -- how to treat those we live with "as family members."

 

Maybe your Mama Bear Instinct isn't out on this one because they're both your cubs. But it sounds like DD8 needs more protection, and DD12 needs a Life Lesson.Your right. I dd12 is a different type of child and I have to be careful of how I handle her or she will actually get worse. Dd8 does need to be protected though. At the same time I don't want it to look as if I'm placing her on a pedestal or giving dd12's stuff to over to her. I want to protect her but my main purpose is to help dd12 overcome this behavior. Does that make sense?

 

Good luck!

 

:grouphug:

 

 

I wonder sometimes how it looks to outsiders. Does it look as if I'm not hard enough on dd12, do I let her get away with things, does she get access to privileges she doesn't always earn? I've asked myself those questions and have often thought to myself that if this was someone else's child I would think they needed to do more to get the behavior under control. It's hard when you have a dc that has multiple issues that need attention. You try not to harp on all of them all at one time otherwise it's just too overwhelming. It's also hard when you have 4 other dc that you have to take into account. For example, if I moved dd12 to her own room that would mean that dd3 would have to sleep in the same room as ds5, and that would mean that he would get woken up all night long because she wakes often and bangs\chants to get herself back to sleep. So, it isn't all just black and white. We have multiple layers of grey around here. Not trying to make excuses (although maybe I am)...just rambling.

[5LittleMonkeys]

I am not trying to be mean, it is hard to get tone across on a message board, so please bear that in mind.

 

It sounds to me like you want big changes but don't really want to work at it. Keeping your dd12 in the same room with dd13, is what she wants. Thinking that you can keep her from entering her own room is silly.

 

IMO, I really think your dd needs a drastic change for her to see you are serious. In her own room with nothing but a bed will not be as appealing as you think. Even if it is her own room. Even if she is by herself. Believe me.

 

Saying you don't want to play musical rooms, I can't help but think, well...that's just lazy. :tongue_smilie: Seriously, if i was as concerned as you sound (in fact if i was in your shoes I would actually be much more concerned) I would be willing to do just about anything to help my dd see that she needed to change and that I loved her enough to do the drastic.

 

It may feel like your rewarding her behavior by allowing her to have her own room, but it may actually be what she NEEDS. Let her have this with the understanding that if things don't change, she will lose her private space and every.other.thing. including her bed, if needs be.

 

 

Bare with me as I work through all these ideas in my mind. First, Momto4Kids, I don't think your being mean, at all. Part of it is laziness...part of it is logistics...part of it is that I've been moving dc around in bedrooms for the last 2 years and I thought I finally had it all finished. I have kept her out of her room in the past however, it was only for two days. Keeping her out for longer would be frustrating.

 

I do want to make an impression on her, but I can't help but be concerned that by letting dd8 basically take her place in that room that it will cause even more animosity. Thoughts on that?

 

Edited to add: I can put dd12 in dd8's room with dd5 (he only goes in there to sleep). Dd3 has to sleep alone because of some sleep problems (see above post).

Edited December 9, 2011 by 5LittleMonkeys

[Trish]

I wonder sometimes how it looks to outsiders. Does it look as if I'm not hard enough on dd12, do I let her get away with things, does she get access to privileges she doesn't always earn? I've asked myself those questions and have often thought to myself that if this was someone else's child I would think they needed to do more to get the behavior under control. It's hard when you have a dc that has multiple issues that need attention. You try not to harp on all of them all at one time otherwise it's just too overwhelming. It's also hard when you have 4 other dc that you have to take into account. For example, if I moved dd12 to her own room that would mean that dd3 would have to sleep in the same room as ds5, and that would mean that he would get woken up all night long because she wakes often and bangs\chants to get herself back to sleep. So, it isn't all just black and white. We have multiple layers of grey around here. Not trying to make excuses (although maybe I am)...just rambling.

 

Oh, I totally agree, it's so hard when there's a bunch of kids, and everyone has their needs/issues/whatever going on.

 

I guess another thing I would add, is, if you want to conquer this particular issue, you may have to give it a LOT more attention. By that I mean, when you see a bad behavior, STOP whatever else is going on in the house and deal with it right away. (for example, the TV goes off, or whatever else is going on comes to a halt) Sometimes bad behavior happens because it flies under the radar a lot of the time, and the perpetrator might only get called out on it occasionally, or when it gets "bad enough."

 

For us, when we want to tackle something we focus on that. Like backtalk. We have pretty much a Zero Tolerance policy on that (I'm not talking bad mood or disagreement, but backtalk/disrespect/rudeness). If we hear that, even if we're on our way out the door for an event, we will stop immediately, correct the offender, and ask him to rephrase nicely. ALWAYS. Because backtalk always escalates, and if they think they can get away with it "sometimes" or "a lot of the time" or "whenever mom's distracted" then it becomes legitimate. Which is NOT what we want.

 

So I'd focus more attention on it, if you're able to.

 

I know it isn't easy!

[Ester Maria]

I have a question.

 

What is DD13's role in all of this? So, okay, it is DD12 who is abusing DD8 - but if I understood correctly, in at least that one particular instance DD13 was in the room when that was happening and... what did she do?

If DD13 is not actively doing something to prevent abuse when it happens near her, she can be the best and the most helpful child in the house, but she is helping perpetuate abuse. It does not mean that she is responsible for what DD12 does, but she is responsible for the lack of acting against it on her part.

 

If at all applicable, I would let DD13 deal with DD12. It would of course largely depend on the dynamic between them, but in all honesty, sometimes I have been pleasantly surprised at how stricter and harsher with each other my daughters can be than I ever would have been with either of them if I make them own a shared problem and deal with it. In fact, I might even present the situation this way: you both share the room, and you are both out of it if your sister is consistently abused in that room when you are there. If not before, DD13 will get mad at DD12 when they are kicked out of the room together and realize that they are in it together. Sometimes a kick to change does not necessarily have to come from the parent.

 

If not applicable at all and I am getting the wrong impressions, then I agree with the switch to combinations DD12-DS5 and DD13-DD8, only I would be likely to make it indefinite, until I see some definite changes.

[Trish]

I see what you're saying, but is it fair to make it DD13's problem? If the parents aren't making headway on this issue, do you think DD13 would have more influence? I'm guessing this causes more problems than it solves, but I could be wrong.

[5LittleMonkeys]

 

I guess another thing I would add, is, if you want to conquer this particular issue, you may have to give it a LOT more attention. By that I mean, when you see a bad behavior, STOP whatever else is going on in the house and deal with it right away. (for example, the TV goes off, or whatever else is going on comes to a halt) Sometimes bad behavior happens because it flies under the radar a lot of the time, and the perpetrator might only get called out on it occasionally, or when it gets "bad enough."

 

 

 

:iagree: This, the part I bolded, does happen here. I wish it didn't, but it does. I know her behavior isn't my fault but that it has gone on so long is. I really do have to get this under control. Hmmm, I'm feeling really carpy about myself right now. There have been many times that I can hear her upstairs being snarky\mean to dd8 and I don't deal with it. It isn't until dd8 comes down to me in tears over something that I address the problem. I have to do some self disciplining don't I? Maybe I need to be put into a room with just a bed and nothing else and no one to talk to and nothing to do. Oh wait, no that would be heavenly.;)

[Trish]

:iagree: This, the part I bolded, does happen here. I wish it didn't, but it does. I know her behavior isn't my fault but that it has gone on so long is. I really do have to get this under control. Hmmm, I'm feeling really carpy about myself right now. There have been many times that I can hear her upstairs being snarky\mean to dd8 and I don't deal with it. It isn't until dd8 comes down to me in tears over something that I address the problem. I have to do some self disciplining don't I? Maybe I need to be put into a room with just a bed and nothing else and no one to talk to and nothing to do. Oh wait, no that would be heavenly.;)

 

Aw, that made me smile! Don't beat yourself up, you can't be everywhere at once. And you've been through other stuff with this DD, so it probably feels like you're climbing an endless mountain. Just take it a few steps at a time. We always have Family Time before bed, when we talk about our day, say our prayers, and I ask the kids "what nice thing did you do for the others in the family today?" That keeps them thinking throughout the day of what nice thing they can do so they "have something" for the nighttime talk. Maybe you can assign each of the older children to someone else the night before, or in the morning, and then tell them they can share at Family Time.

 

I'm sorry, I don't have any Magical Solutions, just baby steps!

[Ester Maria]

I see what you're saying, but is it fair to make it DD13's problem? If the parents aren't making headway on this issue, do you think DD13 would have more influence? I'm guessing this causes more problems than it solves, but I could be wrong.

I could be getting the wrong impressions, of course, since we only get an insight into a limited snapshot of OP's family life, but the way I read it, DD13 does nothing and complains to her mother. I would be livid with my child if they watched abuse happening right there next to them, on a daily basis, and actively did nothing at that age - it would not matter if the child was a star student and did half my housework, some things you just. do not. do. in my opinion, and tolerating this behavior in your own room without seriously confronting a sibling, initiating a family conversation with DD12 present, or at least doing something right there to stop the snappy comments at DD8, is something I would not take lightly. I get that she is a good kid, but all it takes for evil to triumph is good people doing nothing, right? I would really find that character trait - again, if I read this correctly, I may be getting the wrong impression - alarming and I would wish to address it at this age.

 

My daughters would pretty much eat each other alive if one of them abused another child in another daughter's presence, especially as a continuous, not-one-time thing. Really. I do not teach them that they are responsible for each other's actions, but if they are in a situation somewhere together, some level of shared responsibility is there. If DD13 is continuously silent about this, I do think it is a shared problem, not only DD12's problem.

[Joker]

I would probably move 8 yr dd into the room with the two older girls. Maybe it would help 12 yr dd to see her more as an equal if she was able to share in all the goodies and maybe they could have a better chance to really get to know one another. I would actually probably spread the goodies around to all the dc if I didn't have an extra room.

 

Some good friends of mine moved four girls into one room when they started fighting. Now they're really close.

[Trish]

You do have a point EsterMaria! Maybe DD13 could be enlisted to help "remind" her sister when she's forgetting what behavior is expected. Not that she'd get all the responsibility for this but maybe it can be viewed as more of a family dynamic that everyone has an interest in changing.

 

A family should be a team.

[Parrothead]

Thinking about this some more.

 

Have you thought about tomato staking your dd12 to your side?

[5LittleMonkeys]

I have a question.

 

What is DD13's role in all of this?

 

Dd13 won't run to the other end of the house to intervene but when it's happening right in front of her she will call dd12 on the behavior and tell her she needs to knock it off. She has even with-held doing things with dd12 as her own form of "punishment". They role play together on the internet and dd13 will refuse to play with her sometimes, or they may have been planning to watch a movie and dd13 will tell her that she won't watch with her. Occasionally, if dd12 has been particularly mean to dd8, dd13 will play with her and tell dd12 she isn't welcome to join in because of the way she behaved.

 

Dd13 is definitely the matriarch of the dc and dd12 usually won't argue with her and NEVER tries to bully her. Aside from her being intolerant of dd12's bad behavior they are very close and spend most of their time together. I wouldn't want to cause dd13 to have animosity toward dd12 due to getting her kicked out of her room.

[Ester Maria]

Dd13 won't run to the other end of the house to intervene but when it's happening right in front of her she will call dd12 on the behavior and tell her she needs to knock it off. She has even with-held doing things with dd12 as her own form of "punishment". They role play together on the internet and dd13 will refuse to play with her sometimes, or they may have been planning to watch a movie and dd13 will tell her that she won't watch with her. Occasionally, if dd12 has been particularly mean to dd8, dd13 will play with her and tell dd12 she isn't welcome to join in because of the way she behaved.

 

Dd13 is definitely the matriarch of the dc and dd12 usually won't argue with her and NEVER tries to bully her. Aside from her being intolerant of dd12's bad behavior they are very close and spend most of their time together. I wouldn't want to cause dd13 to have animosity toward dd12 due to getting her kicked out of her room.

Well, if this is the case, DD13 does exactly what she should be doing and I got the wrong impression. My solution would then not be applicable and would truly constitute punishing a good kid for being a good kid.

 

A shift as you planned then? Do you think that would work?

[5LittleMonkeys]

I could be getting the wrong impressions, of course, since we only get an insight into a limited snapshot of OP's family life, but the way I read it, DD13 does nothing and complains to her mother. I would be livid with my child if they watched abuse happening right there next to them, on a daily basis, and actively did nothing at that age - it would not matter if the child was a star student and did half my housework, some things you just. do not. do. in my opinion, and tolerating this behavior in your own room without seriously confronting a sibling, initiating a family conversation with DD12 present, or at least doing something right there to stop the snappy comments at DD8, is something I would not take lightly. I get that she is a good kid, but all it takes for evil to triumph is good people doing nothing, right? I would really find that character trait - again, if I read this correctly, I may be getting the wrong impression - alarming and I would wish to address it at this age.

 

My daughters would pretty much eat each other alive if one of them abused another child in another daughter's presence, especially as a continuous, not-one-time thing. Really. I do not teach them that they are responsible for each other's actions, but if they are in a situation somewhere together, some level of shared responsibility is there. If DD13 is continuously silent about this, I do think it is a shared problem, not only DD12's problem.

 

You do have a point EsterMaria! Maybe DD13 could be enlisted to help "remind" her sister when she's forgetting what behavior is expected. Not that she'd get all the responsibility for this but maybe it can be viewed as more of a family dynamic that everyone has an interest in changing.

 

A family should be a team.

 

I get what your saying Ester Maria. Dd13 does overlook it sometimes just as I do sometimes because, through my own fault, it hasn't been dealt with and just seemed to be the way things are...until it gets really bad. We are going to change that mentality though. I think making this a family policy in which every one takes a role in reminding everyone else that bullying is not acceptable is definitely something I want to do. All of my dc could work on treating the others with more kindness and respect.

[5LittleMonkeys]

Thinking about this some more.

 

Have you thought about tomato staking your dd12 to your side?

 

No, but now that you mention it that isn't a bad idea at all. I actually make her sit next to me to do most of her schoolwork to keep her focused and on task (she's slowly earning the privilege of doing her schoolwork away from me).

 

How would you implement it in this situation? Full time, part time, only as a consequence?

[5kidsforME]

No, but now that you mention it that isn't a bad idea at all. I actually make her sit next to me to do most of her schoolwork to keep her focused and on task (she's slowly earning the privilege of doing her schoolwork away from me).

 

How would you implement it in this situation? Full time, part time, only as a consequence?

 

 

Full time to start with.