Should 4h Animals Be Mixed With Therapy Animals?

[newbie]

I still cant figure out how to post on new post board. So I will post here. My friends' ds attends a private school for learning disabled. The dilemma is he goes to horse therapy classes twice a wk. They have several therapy farm animals, but... next to these they have 4H animals, which are visible to these children.

 

Her son found out that these poor piggies are being slaughtered for their BBQ, so his friend told him. My friend asked for the pigs to be out of view, because some kids dont understand the *life cycle program*, but they refuse. The issue, I think that concept is not easily grasped by some children.

 

What can she do, she wants him to stay at this school and not cause waves, but not happy about news he brings home. She would like to save the pig, talked to head of 4H and she refuses to save pig, or cover pen. :confused:

 

Any ideas,

Jeannette

[Renee in NC]

Is this boy vegetarian? If not, then he should learn where his meat comes from.

[newbie]

No, but he is not part of 4H program, he is part of animal therapy program. Also, side note, shouldn't they take these kids to slaughterhouses to get the whole picture. Or easier are the peta videos they put out, but those might be biased.

 

I think raising and selling doesnt cut it.

 

Jeannette

[Holly IN]

hhmmmm I think it is better to have the idea of "out of sight out of mind" type of thing. In that case it is best (my opinion) to have them be separate that way those kids that go there wouldn't grow attached to them. I know for my dd who is special needs would be very upset to see an animal all the time and then get told that the animal is being shipped to slaughter house for meat. My dd is not a vegetarian and knows that meats come from animals. It is one of those "out of sight out of mind" type of thing.

 

Just an opinion of mine!

 

Holly

[newbie]

Holly,

:iagree::iagree::iagree:Now the question is how do you go about getting them to move or cover pigs, she has talked to director and its a no go.

 

:confused:Jeannette

[astrid]

I still cant figure out how to post on new post board. So I will post here. My friends' ds attends a private school for learning disabled. The dilemma is he goes to horse therapy classes twice a wk. They have several therapy farm animals, but... next to these they have 4H animals, which are visible to these children.

 

Her son found out that these poor piggies are being slaughtered for their BBQ, so his friend told him. My friend asked for the pigs to be out of view, because some kids dont understand the *life cycle program*, but they refuse. The issue, I think that concept is not easily grasped by some children.

 

What can she do, she wants him to stay at this school and not cause waves, but not happy about news he brings home. She would like to save the pig, talked to head of 4H and she refuses to save pig, or cover pen. :confused:

 

Any ideas,

Jeannette

 

Let me get this straight..... Your friend wants the farm that offers the therapeutic riding program to rearrange its whole setup for her child? All because of comments made by another child? :001_huh:

 

I don't think that it's incumbent upon the farm, which is most likely functioning as an independent contractor to provide the riding program to the students, to have to re-arrange their whole operation because of a comment made by one child to another, regardless of the students' ability to grasp the situation. It's very expensive and time consuming to take down and set up fencing, and depending on the property, this may be the only location for the pigs on the property. I think the child, to the level he is able, should understand where food comes from, and that includes meat. If he's hanging out on a farm, that's part of the game, so to speak.

 

Personally, I'd not show PETA videos to ANY children, let alone those with special needs. But that's just me. The ones I have seen are quite disturbing.

 

I don't mean to be disrespectful, but this whole situation has me scratching my head. Is this a battle that must be waged?

 

JMHO,

Astrid

[Renee in NC]

You said what I was trying to convey, astrid. If I had a child that was that sensitive, I would remove him from the situation, not expect everyone else to rearrange their lives for him. I have a special needs child and I realize that it requires accomodation, but on my part, not on anyone else's.

 

ETA: My dc HAVE been to a slaughter house (more than one), but *I* wouldn't watch a PETA video.

[Mommieeeee]

Let me get this straight..... Your friend wants the farm that offers the therapeutic riding program to rearrange its whole setup for her child? All because of comments made by another child? :001_huh:

 

Personally, I'd not show PETA videos to ANY children, let alone those with special needs. But that's just me. The ones I have seen are quite disturbing.

 

I don't mean to be disrespectful, but this whole situation has me scratching my head. Is this a battle that must be waged?

 

JMHO,

Astrid

 

I agree with this. In addition because we live in the wonderful USA and we have a capitalist society, if that particular horse therapy program isn't comfortable to them, another can be gone to and used. I cannot see changing the 4-H pens just to accommodate one person's views. 4-H is a wonderful program and so is horse therapy. This farm is able to accommodate both of them. Good for them.

 

Maybe the pigs can turn into a learning opportunity instead of a bad thing. But I also agree in not showing the PETA videos. They seem to take the worst situations.

[Suzanne in ABQ]

You can't post on the New Post board because you're not supposed to be able to. No one does. No one can. :D Whenever anyone posts a new post anywhere, on any of the boards (General, Curriculum, High School, etc.), their post shows up on the New Post board. That way, you can quickly see what's been happening on all the boards while you weren't looking.

[newbie]

Astrid,

 

I love your posts. I didnt clearly explain situation. The farm is not a seperate entity. The charter school has the therapy program within their learning disabled school. They even tout the *therapy barnyard animals* on their website. The 4h program is the newbie on the block(no pun intended).

 

If no Peta videos which are brutal. Perhaps a field trip to slaughterhouse for the 4h kids. That shows how mr. piggy gets from A to B. I think they are missing middle step. We are not bashing 4H. Just want piggies put seperate from Therapy program.

 

I think it is issue, maybe just me and her.

Jeannette

[newbie]

Drama Queen,

 

Unfortunately in this sitch, its easier to move pig, than dc. The school is where both programs are.

 

Again Peta is a rude awakening for anyone.

 

Jeannette

[snickelfritz]

There are often only certain areas to put animals. For convenience, pens often share sides. That saves having to buy more pen materials. Not to mention the labor that it takes to actually build the pens and then having to arrange for shelter for the animals. We didn't move pens around without an important reason to do so. There's just too much work that HAS to get done. It also helps to keep the animals close to each other, so that you aren't walking all over the place to feed them. It's also best to locate them near a faucet, so that you aren't lugging buckets of water. If it looks like they have lots of "open" land, it's likely going to be used for raising hay, running cattle or horses, etc...

 

I agree with the others who say it's not really practical to expect them to change the pens around to completely get the therapy horses out of sight of the other animals.

[newbie]

What about covering with that green plastic material. So they are not visible to other non 4H kids.

 

Jeannette

[Mommieeeee]

But won't the kids already know that the pigs are behind the green plastic material?

 

I understand wanting to protect the children from the vision of the pigs. But why should they buy the green plastic material because someone doesn't want to see? Who should be responsible for purchasing the green plastic material? Also, knowing kids, they are going to peek...whatever they aren't supposed to see, they want to!!!!

 

I don't mean to be rude or insensitive. I just like to try to see both sides of the story. I can't see why the 4-Hers should put up the barrier because one or a couple of people disagree with it. Are there any other parents that like the little piggies being there?

[astrid]

Thanks for the clarification. However, I guess I'm still not understanding why the animals must be moved. Isn't the horse out of the barn now, so to speak? If the program is teaching theraputic riding, that's a lot for the kids to focus on. Ignore the pigs! Yes, I know they are special needs kids, but it seems to me that the teachers could redirect their attention in some way, no? And get them busy with riding? If the 4-H is a separate program, they're entitled to the space too, right?

 

I really don't mean to sound like I"m looking at this in an overly simplistic way. Apologies if that's the way I"m coming across.

[snickelfritz]

What about covering with that green plastic material. So they are not visible to other non 4H kids.

 

If they tied lawn plastic around the pens.....those pigs would have it torn down in no time at all. They nose, they mouth, they grab, they tear. They have sharp teeth. I showed them for a few years in 4-h and FFA. It would have to be something very durable, which means expensive.

[newbie]

Thanks for all input, so what to do, apparently the teachers are not keeping the children away. And there are more than one child that is affected.

 

I still dont like idea of mixing therapy with 4H, its like putting an abortion clinic next to a prolife group office. They definitely can be on same street. But not practical.

 

Is it just me,

Jeannette

[snickelfritz]

is a reality of farm life. It was a reality that we grew up with. I knew from a very young age what would happen to the pigs, cattle, sheep, etc... that we had around. My parents were gentle with the information, but that was their livelihood. We also knew that we could wake up to find our pet dog killed by coyotes. We cried, they comforted, and we moved on.

 

I'm offended by comparing a working farm to an abortion clinic. Honestly, if it's THAT offensive to you...I would stop the activity.

[newbie]

Sorry Snickelfritz,

 

I couldnt come up with good analogy. It didnt come out right, did not mean to offend. I am just thinking of two opposing camps.

 

This is not a working farm, that is the point.

 

I totally respect 4H, but I dont believe in killing animals, therefore I have not let my dd's join. Although I like all the other activities. Matter of fact I did look into putting them in, but did not find any that did not believe in life cycle. So they did not join. Just went against our grain. Friend on the otherhand cant pull her son from a great school. This again is a new small program.

 

Am I truly in a two person minority.

Very interesting please keep posting, love all views,

Jeannette

[Mommieeeee]

I have to say that if I was going to be an animal that was being raised for meat, (pig, cow, goat, chicken, etc) I would much rather be raised by a 4-H person than at a farm where there are thousands and they are brought to the slaughterhouse by the masses. The animals that are cared for by 4-Hers almost treat their animals as pets,or close to it. They usually get named.

 

But, that is the cycle of life. These animals were put on the earth to provide food. And the 4-Hers who raise them (at least what I have seen) do it with compassion and care. They genuinely care for these animals. I mean how many pigs do you know get baths? Or good food? Or sunlight? I would guess that these animals are getting this.

 

I would definitely see your point if the therapy horses were next to a slaughterhouse. I wouldn't like that at all.

 

 

I don't mean to disrespect your view at all. I am just trying to understand better why you don't want the kids to see the pigs. Are they ill-kept? Are you or the other family vegetarians? In my opinion, if I were to show my family food that comes to our table, I would much rather show them 4-H animals than the masses of animals, squeezed together in ill-kept conditions.

 

Just my two cents!

[astrid]

I still dont like idea of mixing therapy with 4H, its like putting an abortion clinic next to a prolife group office.

 

 

:001_huh:HUH?

Okay, now I'm taking exception. As the mom of a very active 4-H'er, I really object to that analogy. A 4-H operation is analagous to an abortion clinic???? Oh Come ON!

 

The special needs kids learn from and benefit from the riding therapy.

The 4-H'ers learn from and benefit from raising and showing their pigs.

 

Just because the nuts and bolts of the 4-H program isn't your cup of tea does not make it any less valid. Why can't the 4-H kids do their thing, while the therapy riders do theirs? IMHO, this is getting absurd.

 

Astrid

[astrid]

I I totally respect 4H, but I dont believe in killing animals, therefore I have not let my dd's join.

 

My dd (10) is a very active 4-H'er. She is in a dog 4-H club as well as a chicken 4-H club. Neither kills the animals. :blink: Our dogs are treasured family members as well as show dogs. Our hens are adored pets, who happen to lay eggs. I guess you don't understand what 4-H is all about. There are lots of 4-H clubs that do not even have anything to do with animals--- sewing, cooking, etc.

 

Please, it isn't fair to paint all 4-H'ers with such a broad brush. You make it seem as the whole point of 4H is to kill the animals! That is SOOO not true!

[amy g.]

I really do not understand this.

 

I have 2 children who do not believe in killing/eating animals; therefore, they are vegetarians. The rest of the family understands, and supports them in obeying their own conscience.

 

The rest of us believe that it is okay to eat meat that has been raised and killed in a humane manner. We have 10 turkeys right now that the kids hold and handle everyday. They know that those turkeys will be slaughtered and dressed right here in the backyard.

 

They respect our right to live and eat the way we see fit.

 

If you do not believe in killing animals. Become a vegetarian, and change charter schools.

[newbie]

Astrid,

 

You are right this is absurd, this post was not to bash 4H. It again as I have stated is a wonderful program. I wish we could find a non life cycle one in my area.

 

The post was in regards to a special needs child who goes to a private charter school, again this is not a farm. These facilities are part of the school. The therapy program with farm animals and horses were there before the 4H pigs arrived recently.

 

Therefore these children cannot differentiate between programs. It has nothing to do with animals. I believe to them they are all therapy animals, which include goats, pigs, and horses.

 

Sorry again and again about clinic analogy. Love farms, love 4H and have a ranch of my own, believe it or not. The focus is the children , not the pigs.

 

Hope someone understands,

Jeannette

[newbie]

Let me get this straight..... Your friend wants the farm that offers the therapeutic riding program to rearrange its whole setup for her child? All because of comments made by another child? :001_huh:

 

I don't think that it's incumbent upon the farm, which is most likely functioning as an independent contractor to provide the riding program to the students, to have to re-arrange their whole operation because of a comment made by one child to another, regardless of the students' ability to grasp the situation. It's very expensive and time consuming to take down and set up fencing, and depending on the property, this may be the only location for the pigs on the property. I think the child, to the level he is able, should understand where food comes from, and that includes meat. If he's hanging out on a farm, that's part of the game, so to speak.

 

Personally, I'd not show PETA videos to ANY children, let alone those with special needs. But that's just me. The ones I have seen are quite disturbing.

 

I don't mean to be disrespectful, but this whole situation has me scratching my head. Is this a battle that must be waged?

 

JMHO,

Astrid

 

Aha, I know where things went haywire, my point wasnt understood, that it is not a farm,. It is a private charter special needs school. Sorry this had a snowball effect.

 

But , Astrid I love your posts. You are super spicy.

 

Thanks for all your input,

Jeannette

[snickelfritz]

They won't move the pigs. The teacher won't keep the kids from talking about the fate of the pigs. The riding program is great. The kids are getting upset by talking about the fate of the pigs.

 

If they won't change, and it sounds like you've exhaused what you can ask them to do..... I would say the best you can do is to help your son cope with it. I don't know how old he is or what exactly "special needs" means. I don't know his comprehension level. If he's getting upset, I would explain it gently and also explain how YOU feel about it. It doesn't mean you have to condone something you don't believe in. I'm assuming you're vegetarian, so I would use this to explain why you are vegetarian. To keep him from being upset, you could focus on the fact that the pigs are happy where they are at, get plenty of food and water, and they don't know what's coming. Maybe you could use better words than that.:001_huh:

[newbie]

Thanks snickelfritz for understanding. Special needs has a broad spectrum. Each child is an individual and understanding depends on the child and their disability. He is not my son. But, I do have a niece with CAPD who is twenty and sometimes comprehension of simple daily things can allude her.

 

Who is to say at this school who can comprehend what. But I know it is bothering my friends son and I am sure it bothers others. Wouldnt it be easier to set some great groundrules all around in regard to said pig. Maybe a town meeting. I mean school. Or am I being extreme again.

 

Jeannette

[amy g.]

You are being extreme.

[Danestress]

If my own sons express dismay that animals are slaughtered, I know I have the option of saying, "Yes, that's why we aren't going to eat meat any more - because real live pigs have to die to satisfy our desires, and I don't like that?"

 

I'm not a vegetarian. My kids aren't either. But I know how meat ends up in the plastic wrap at the grocery story, and so do they. I can't see the point of lying to my kids about it or hiding it or minimizing it. If it's bad, we shouldn't do it. If it's good, we shouldn't hide it. Sometimes I think it really *isn't* good and I consider not eating meat anymore. It still could happen. My children like meat, but any time they decide to feel sorry for the animals, I am willing to consider encouraging them to switch to lentils.

[newbie]

Sometimes I like being extreme. I guess the pig wins. Interesting. I would think there would be more consideration for the children and their feelings.

 

Maybe we should join 4 H, I commend all you strong women, who support it and are apparently against poor vegans.

 

I dont have an issue either way. Was just bringing up a point for a friend.

 

Jeannette

[astrid]

But , Astrid I love your posts. You are super spicy.

 

 

 

:lol::D:lol:

 

Thanks, Newbie! I'm going to go around the house tonight singing, "I'm SUPAH-SPICY!"

 

You're a peach!

 

Astrid

[newbie]

LOL:lol::lol:

[astrid]

I commend all you strong women, who support it and are apparently against poor vegans.

 

OKAY....HOLD THE PHONE!!!!!

 

I definitely support 4-H. But.....

WHERE DID I SAY I WAS "AGAINST POOR VEGANS"?!

 

Yikes......heck, we could BE vegans! Just because we support the responsible raising of meat animals doesn't mean we're against vegans!

 

Sheesh....I"m a liberal Democrat.....I support everyone's right to eat whatever the heck they want to! :blink:

 

Just want to make that clear!

Astrid

[Kathy in MD]

Sometimes I like being extreme. I guess the pig wins. Interesting. I would think there would be more consideration for the children and their feelings.

 

Maybe we should join 4 H, I commend all you strong women, who support it and are apparently against poor vegans.

 

I dont have an issue either way. Was just bringing up a point for a friend.

 

Jeannette

 

This post went over the top.

 

I do have consideration for children and their feelings. Therefore I do believe in teaching them the facts of life gently. But I don't believe in hiding the facts of life from them. Animals die. People die. And animals often die in order to let other animals live. It's called nature. So I personally don't have a problem with humans raising animals for food.

 

Nor do I have problems with people who are vegetarian or vegan. There are many good reasons for limiting or eliminating meat intake. I do object when people start making snide comments, on either side of the meat eating fence. Convince me with logic that you're right, not sledge hammers or emotional pleas.

 

And as a child I was in 4-H in agricultural counties in an agricultural state. Probably over 50% of the 4-H exhibits were NOT livestock oriented. And there was even a portion of the livestock exhibits that weren't raised to be slaughtered. My rural club never discussed livestock. I even was on my own when I was showing my pony.

 

And don't get me started on PETA. I first heard about that crew when they broke into our local junior high to "liberate" the poor rabbits that were being raised as part of science class. PETA decided that their conditions weren't good enough. But they couldn't take care of the liberated rabbits -- so they killed them! Did they bother to ask the rabbits if they would rather be dead than kept in temperature controled classrooms with plenty of food and water and attention? And what did they do with all these dead rabbits? Did they do something useful with the carcases? Like feed the hungry or feed our carnivorous pets? Or did they just incinerate the rabbits?

 

You say you don't have an issue either way, but the tone in many of your posts doesn't indicate it.

[amy g.]

Well, this poster is either baiting, or simpleminded.

 

I love and respect vegans.

 

I do not respect people who are unwilling to make a lifestyle change based on their convictions.

 

They just want everyone else to change to accommodate them.

 

It's not even worth discussing further.

[Holly IN]

You are being extreme.

 

Actually I agree with the OP on this. A Special needs child do not have the understanding as regular nt kids do. My boys for one understand what they do at slaughterhouse. When my special needs dd is told it is the END OF THE WORLD for her. *my dd's emphasis not mine* So I do not believe the OP is being extreme at all.

 

We do not have a probelm with killing of animals for food. However with my dd's case I would have a problem that the OP is having. If the situaion is not rectified then I would remove my business from that place and find therapy elsewhere...that can happen in a perfect world. However the OP situation is that is most likely not to happend as this is connected to charter school issues.

 

I see both sides to this however when you have a theraputic place for SN kids then you would do well to make sure that the children are not agitated which in this case they were agitated by the thought of these 4h animals going to the slaughterhouse. Why in the world did the owner say this? That is my main beef with the owner. Why!!

 

ETA: I think this thread has gotten away from what the point was. I guess the fight is over who is vegan and who is not. I could care less. I do agree that all kids have to be taught the facts of life but it is not the decision of the owner to tell the kids that. Some weren't ready for that and some were. My beef would be why did the owner say this? I would take this to the owner/director and let her know that she is going to loose business over discretion not where the pigs are. I understand that she can't move the pigs as that would be expensive to do so however...is she in the business for theraputic animals or farm animals? This is where the owner needs to look at.

 

 

 

Holly

[Remudamom]

Oh dear, I vote for explaining things to the child, as in where bacon originates. But my kids have listened to me rant about how slaughter houses in the US should not have been closed, so maybe I'm too hardened.

[beansprouts]

Well, this poster is either baiting, or simpleminded.

 

I may not agree with this particular thread, but I have read Newbie's posts before and I generally enjoy what she has to say. She is not simpleminded by a long shot, and I doubt she is intentionally baiting.

[Mommieeeee]

 

What can she do, she wants him to stay at this school and not cause waves, but not happy about news he brings home. She would like to save the pig, talked to head of 4H and she refuses to save pig, or cover pen. :confused:

 

 

 

 

I went back and reread your original post. Just to clarify that the child the child this is happening to is not yours, you are asking for a friend. I understand about finding a school that you like. I would be hesitant to leave also. After rereading, maybe the solution is for the mom to be present when they are out for horse therapy. It was stated that the son sees the pigs when out there, and he also got information from a friend at school. So, to me it reads that she sends the son off to school and isn't with him during these visits to the horse therapy program.

 

Maybe she can be present to make the situation positive? Or to intercept the comments from the other kids and correct (the comments.) You never know what will be said when kids talk whether special needs or not. Kids are kids, they sometimes over exaggerate and sometimes their imaginations go wild. I can understand how the son didn't like it. He could have heard "That piggie is going to be alive and served up for dinner!" Kids can be mean to each other. The best thing, in my opinion, would be for the mom to be present for these situations.

 

Again, just my two cents...I guess that I have given you four cents now!

[newbie]

Hi everyone,

 

Thank you Holly, where were you earlier. And Beansprouts, you're my gal.

This was never intended to be 4h/non 4h or vegan / non vegan. That would be simpleminded poll.

 

This was as Holly stated an issue with a charter school who hasnt changed policies at the school. Although we have talked to her. It again is not a farm where life cycle policies are an issue. I commend all farms who raise meat for farms in a humane manner.

 

Point in fact, I have a neighbor who has grazing rights on my property in No. Calif. If I was so anti-meat. I would not let him graze his going to be slaughtered 1500 heads of steer or cows.

 

If my remarks seem snide, forgive me. I am truly not that kind of person.

Just wanted a little help so turned to the hive, try to be more careful next time and perhaps more eloquent.

 

Jeannette

[newbie]

I went back and reread your original post. Just to clarify that the child the child this is happening to is not yours, you are asking for a friend. I understand about finding a school that you like. I would be hesitant to leave also. After rereading, maybe the solution is for the mom to be present when they are out for horse therapy. It was stated that the son sees the pigs when out there, and he also got information from a friend at school. So, to me it reads that she sends the son off to school and isn't with him during these visits to the horse therapy program.

 

Maybe she can be present to make the situation positive? Or to intercept the comments from the other kids and correct (the comments.) You never know what will be said when kids talk whether special needs or not. Kids are kids, they sometimes over exaggerate and sometimes their imaginations go wild. I can understand how the son didn't like it. He could have heard "That piggie is going to be alive and served up for dinner!" Kids can be mean to each other. The best thing, in my opinion, would be for the mom to be present for these situations.

 

Again, just my two cents...I guess that I have given you four cents now!

 

My friend mom was there that was half the problem. She attended with her other son, and they petted these pigs and interacted with them. The next time she asked her son how Mr. Piggy was. He said he was told they are going to be on Fall Festival table. That is how broo ha ha started.

Jeannette

[Danestress]

Sometimes I like being extreme. I guess the pig wins. Interesting. I would think there would be more consideration for the children and their feelings.

 

Maybe we should join 4 H, I commend all you strong women, who support it and are apparently against poor vegans.

 

I dont have an issue either way. Was just bringing up a point for a friend.

 

Jeannette

 

I have no idea what you are trying to say here. The pig wins? I thought he was going to die? And as for children and their feelings, I can see why children would be upset to pet an animal and then here it was going to die. It actually would upset me too, a bit, which is why I brought up the vegetarian thing. If it upsets me, why do I eat meat? If it upsets my children, why wouldn't I encourage them to take the first step to changing things by refusing to eat meat?

 

As for being against vegan, I'm not. I don't think anyone here is.