s/o educational neglect and state laws

[laundrycrisis]

I am spinning off the thread about educational neglect because there is something I have always wondered. In states with more oversight of homeschooling, is this less likely to happen ?

 

Recently in IL the possibility of a registration requirement came up. The across-the-board feeling of homeschoolers here is that we don't want the government checking up on us at all, in any way, or to have any requirements for us to prove that we are in fact educating our children. The statistics about homeschoolers on average having better test scores and the failures of the public schools are often brought up. And from my own personal point of view, I do enjoy having the freedom here to conduct our homeschool however I want to and not be concerned about proving anything from year to year. Yay freedom !

 

On the other hand.....it is possible for parents to create educational neglect here. In fact it would be easy, and probably nobody would ever know unless someone reported the family and there was a truancy investigation. I have known some RU folks who practice what I consider educational neglect - there is no conscientious strewing because they don't believe in it, and it was to the point that kids weren't getting help even when they asked for it. I know someone who was a dedicated RUer until she faced the consequence of her 19 yo being angry and upset when he couldn't start community college until he completed the equivalent of 2 years worth of remedial math courses, and now his younger siblings are required to work on the 3Rs every school day. I love the freedom here, and I do believe that most homeschoolers here are making an effort to keep their kids progressing in whatever style they choose. Yet I know that some educational neglect does occur, and there really is nothing about the laws regarding home education here that prevents it. So I end up wondering...in states where kids are required to be tested once in a while, or portfolios have to be turned in, or someone has to be looking over plans and work that represents progress and approving things, do these laws stop the neglect from happening ?

 

When all the hubbub about registration was going on here, HSLDA was presenting a statistic that the states with more regulation of homeschoolers do not have homeschoolers with higher test scores - so they argue that more regulation really does not improve anything. But does it keep homeschoolers on our toes enough to prevent the neglect situations ? For those who are on the edge of neglect, do those requirements push them back into the territory of being responsible ? Or would the people who can't be bothered to teach their kids also decide that they can't be bothered to jump through those legal hoops, so for them the new path of least resistance would be putting the kids in school, and prevent educational neglect that way ?

 

Sorry I am rambling here, but it is something I have always wondered. When I hear about educational neglect in homeschools, I know that it can and does happen here. I end up wondering if the laws in places like Washington, Florida, Pennsylvania, Ohio etc. actually prevent it from happening.

Edited December 3, 2011 by Laundrycrisis2

[Pamela H in Texas]

There are probably more people homeschooling under the radar in places with more oversight; but yes, I think it is much more likely that people who are openly calling themselves homeschoolers are neglecting their children's education to a large degree (or completely) in places with less oversight.

 

My my daughter was entering high school, I knew many people claiming to homeschool. I knew a handful of people who actually DID. Homeschooling HERE generally means only that you don't send your kids to school.

 

ETA: I am not claiming that of the whole DFW area. I am saying it of my more local area.

[fhjmom]

IMHO, there is educational neglect occurring inside some traditional schools (and I am not anti-public school nor do I want this to turn into a PS bashing thread) so more oversight does not equal "doing a better job". I think more oversight causes people to be less forthcoming about what they may or may not be really doing and they may find better ways of hiding or making it look like they are doing something they are not. I don't know that it really has that much affect on the outcomes.

[laundrycrisis]

IMHO, there is educational neglect occurring inside some traditional schools (and I am not anti-public school nor do I want this to turn into a PS bashing thread) so more oversight does not equal "doing a better job". I think more oversight causes people to be less forthcoming about what they may or may not be really doing and they may find better ways of hiding or making it look like they are doing something they are not. I don't know that it really has that much affect on the outcomes.

 

ITA, educational neglect does happen in public school - yes. I also know that in more highly regulated states, families figure out how to work the system and give the state what they are looking for in order to stay out of trouble, and that it may not accurately represent what is going on in the homeschool. But for a family like the one described in the other thread - where nothing is done except listening to a parent read scriptures and then a little math - or some of the families I have known in which the kids "play and learn" all day and there really is no academic focus at all, ever...it seems like it might become impossible or at least very difficult to keep going that way in a more regulated state....would it ?

[NanceXToo]

Well, I live in PA which is one of THE most regulated states and I know radical unschoolers here who manage to go about their lives and still manage to show a portfolio that meets the state requirements so I imagine where there's a will, there's a way. I do wish the homeschool law was less intrusive. For one, there are stats showing that the less regulated states are not faring any worse than the heavily regulated ones. So why not just back off and save everyone time and money and energy and resources and so on?

 

For another, it just rubs me wrong that I live in a failing district (in an area with a lot of failing districts, for that matter) that ought to be worrying about its own students, not mine, so I sort of resent that they feel the need to focus on my kids to the point where they even push for things that are a bit outside the letter of the law. I want to say "worry about your own kids. You're failing them. Literally. You're on warning for not meeting state average. Again. My kids are fine." But of course, I can't lol.

[kolamum]

Even in places with the strictest rules it's always possible for someone to slip through the cracks. The hope is that all parents are honest and have enough love and respect to teach their children appropriately and not hide behind a label. Kwim?

[laundrycrisis]

I live in a highly regulated state. We have to submit a plan of instruction, a notice of intent, quarterly reports, assessments, etc. To be honest though, I could write whatever the heck I want on the paperwork and so long as it fits what they want to hear/read there is not much more to it. Not that I'm complaining!

 

 

What kind of assessments ? Do you give them yourself or do they have to take them somewhere ? Do you decide what test or does the state dictate that ? What happens if the kids don't do well ? Is it possible for parents to cheat ? Thank you, I am curious about how all this works.

[laundrycrisis]

Well, I live in PA which is one of THE most regulated states and I know radical unschoolers here who manage to go about their lives and still manage to show a portfolio that meets the state requirements so I imagine where there's a will, there's a way.

 

I am curious about how this works if a family does not ever do any academic work at all, or there are kids who would be in 3rd grade or up but not able to read and write, or do basic math....are the parents just creating the "work" for the portfolio to turn in ?

 

I know there are RU families in which the kids do pick up these skills...but I also know of some in which the kids are terribly behind. It seems like it would be hard to get an acceptable sample of work together unless the parent just faked it all.

[SW in IL]

My son was homeschooled and when he got to be about 12, he simply stopped doing his work. He refused. He got violent when he was told that he had to do his schoolwork before he could _____ (go out and play, watch TV, play on the computer, etc). I ended up calling the police on him when he got so out of control he was literally kicking me in the chest. He was 13 at the time. The state (IL) said to put him in PS, so I did. He was never given placement tests, and was put in remedial reading (though even then he was reading/comprehending at a high school level) but in regular math (he was still struggling with place value and basic math). The ONLY thing he learned in junior high was that he could do nothing (claiming that he didn't understand) and yet still graduate. His time in PS only put him further behind his peers.

 

Fast foward a few years. I pretty much gave up on homeschooling him. But neither did I put him in PS. I told him I'd be here when he was ready. He's now (age 17) decided that he wants a GED. He did the placement testing and is enrolled in GED/Pre-GED classes. Unfortunately, he still doesn't have the discipline or temperament to sit through the class and do his homework. He's convinced that they'll pass him no matter what because that's what the PS system did when we went to junior high.

 

I have several friends who unschooled their children. Several of the kids decided they wanted to go to college and all of them studied hard and in the span of about 2 years managed to do well enough on the ACT/SAT that not only did they get into college, most of them got nice financial aid packages based on their scores. At least one has started his own home-based business and is doing well. And there's one I know of who dropped out of school and got into drugs and now is in legal trouble. Seems to me, that's a better percentage than the public educational system has to show.

 

On the other hand, my soon-to-be-niece lives in a state where there's mandatory testing. Her mom does nothing as far as homeschooling her. Her grandmother, my fiance and I try to help when we can but her attitude is "Momma says I don't have to." When she didn't show enough progress on the annual test, SIL to be simply said that she'd do better. When she still didn't show progress the next year, SIL said that she was going to enroll her in private school. The state never checked back after that.

 

So, no, I don't think mandatory testing would help. Those who don't homeschool will simply find a way to wiggle through the cracks in the system. In order to prevent that, they'd have to tighten the regulations so much that loads of successful homeschools would be negatively affected. Don't punish all homeschoolers for the failure of a few.

 

Sue

[QueenCat]

What is "RU"?

[NanceXToo]

I am curious about how this works if a family does not ever do any academic work at all, or there are kids who would be in 3rd grade or up but not able to read and write, or do basic math....are the parents just creating the "work" for the portfolio to turn in ?

 

I know there are RU families in which the kids do pick up these skills...but I also know of some in which the kids are terribly behind. It seems like it would be hard to get an acceptable sample of work together unless the parent just faked it all.

 

I think it's a mixture of things and will depend both on how lenient a district is and on the individual family. Some districts ARE more lenient than others about what they expect and accept in the portfolios. The law says "samples" of required subjects must be in the portfolio but doesn't specify how many samples or what constitutes a sample.

 

And like you said, with some RU families, the kids probably pick things up naturally or because they wanted to and the family helped them do so, and some probably didn't have an interest and so WOULD be considered too "behind" to get in samples a district might realistically want to see.

 

So I imagine in lieu of worksheet and written paper type samples, some unschoolers might show for science, for example, photos of their kids at the science museum, a photo of some experiment they did, a certificate showing they participated in some sort of science class or program at an environmental conservation center, and a few science-related titles on their log of reading materials.

 

Some might never "make" a kid do math all year long but come portfolio time print out three or four math worksheets off the internet and help them do it if they need help or ask them to do it if they are proficient enough to do it on their own, just to be able to put it in the portfolio and consider it "civil disobedience" for a worthy cause because they don't think they should have to have the school district intruding on their lives to begin with.

 

Some districts will willingly accept a more minimalist portfolio if you give them a "summary" telling them what kinds of things you did for a given subject...I like to only include 3-5 subjects with my portfolios and I do include a summary with my portfolios.

 

My summary will list our curricula but it will also say things like:

 

Arithmetic

 

"She used math in practical situations such as during shopping and cooking.

 

We played math operations board games, card games and computer games and used flash cards for further multiplication tables practice."

 

Science

 

"She also did various kid-friendly science experiments and participated in some science-related homeschool co-op classes.

 

We visited several science museums and a planetarium as well as zoos, aquariums, gardens and other nature areas and habitats."

 

And I'm sure there ARE also families out there who do, indeed, just "fake it all."

[NanceXToo]

What is "RU"?

 

radical unschoolers

[kiana]

I don't really think the regulations do jack-all, especially not the ones like NY and PA.

 

I don't have a problem with requiring an interview, portfolio, test, or something in alternate years though. I wouldn't fight for the legislation but I wouldn't look on it as unduly onerous if it were there.

[laundrycrisis]

they'd have to tighten the regulations so much that loads of successful homeschools would be negatively affected.

 

This has always been my main thought about oversight...that if the net is too tight, perfectly responsible families who have a legitimate reason for a child to be behind will be caught in it and have their freedoms violated for no good reason or benefit to anyone.

 

Our DS1 has been behind due to visual processing problems. I have been glad that I did not have to send him for testing or turn in work. I would have been afraid that the school district would jump to conclusions that I was not educating him and force us to put him in school. As it is, I have been careful to document all we have been doing privately to help him - the tutor, the vision therapy, and all of the work he does and progress he makes. In case we are ever investigated, I want to be able to prove that we are legitimately homeschooling. But I am thankful that we live in a state in which an investigation like this is not very likely to happen, and that I don't have to prove over and over again every year that we are really homeschooling.

 

Given my own level of paranoia about our very responsible homeschool in a very low regulation state, I would never have the nerve to not homeschool, but fake it, in a high regulation state.

[kalanamak]

 

When all the hubbub about registration was going on here, HSLDA was presenting a statistic that the states with more regulation of homeschoolers do not have homeschoolers with higher test scores - so they argue that more regulation really does not improve anything.

 

 

I haven't read the other responses, but post hoc ergo propter hoc.

Sloppy thinking on their part, but I think they know it full well, and are just using the statistic to further their agenda, with the assumption it is the other side's responsibility to know a fallacy when they see one.

 

IMO.

[Truscifi]

I don't really think the regulations do jack-all, especially not the ones like NY and PA.

 

I don't have a problem with requiring an interview, portfolio, test, or something in alternate years though. I wouldn't fight for the legislation but I wouldn't look on it as unduly onerous if it were there.

 

I don't know if the regulations here help or not, but we have to notify the school district at the start of each year and provide either a portfolio or standardized test results at the end of each year and I have never found it a burden.

[angela in ohio]

We lived in Ohio, which has higher levels of regulations than many states (notify school with list of materials and intended curriculum, assessment/test at end of year, etc.) What I saw was that the assessors would rubber stamp anyone who paid them $30 or so. So the assessment was a joke. I know of one who bragged that she didn't need the child or any work samples present at the assessment; the parents showed up, handed a check over, and she signed.

 

The regulations are not to police how well children are being homeschooled; they are to make people feel better that "those homeschoolers are being watched."

 

I haven't seen any difference in levels of homeschooling diligence in Michigan, even though it has less restrictive regulations (no paper trail, no assessment/test, etc.)