Catholic Moms (or any other Christians who aren't shove-it-down-their-throat)

[myfunnybunch]

Just as I insist she eat healthy, and she doesn't yet get to decide to eat Oreos for dinner, she will not be allowed to simply opt out of all faith based/centered activities. I will not, however, force BELIEF on her, I will not shove this down her throat

 

I think you've got this one. Right there is where she needs you to be. She was pretty brave to share all of that with you, and I'll bet you anything it's at least in part because she trusts you to really listen and let her think this through.

 

No book recommendations. Just encouragement. :grouphug:

 

Cat

[anabelneri]

I had another thought... one thing about 9-12yos is that they often need more. They need more depth, more challenge. That's the age group I teach at church, and they're fun. They can be very skeptical, but at the same time I can see them feeling called into the studies we're doing. We use the Catechesis of the Good Shepherd, and at this age we dive into Bible studies and studies about God's plan in the world. It's so, so good.

 

One thing we talk about explicitly is that we are all called to help further God's plan. We look at the gifts we have been given by previous generations, everything from the domestication of animals through the development of computers. Then we look forward into the future, and we ask the kids to think about what gifts they have to share with the world. I think this question is key at this age... they love the introspection of thinking about their own gifts, and it shortcuts through the places of potential skepticism. Being asked what they can do to make the world a better place to further the plan of God is something kids can think about without needing to address the questions of belief. And it leads right into the next stage of development around age 12 (according to Montessori) when the children will have a deep need to serve others.

 

Just an extra thought for the mix.

:)

[KatieH]

You may want to read what's on this page to her - it's about a miracle experienced by a 13yo girl.

 

http://www.medjugorjeusa.org/miracles.htm

 

There are countless miracles attributed to Our Lady of Medjugorje - they are fascinating and compelling. Our God is very real' date=' and He's been sending His Mother, every day for the past 30 years, to remind us. :) The youngest of the visionaries, Jacov, was 10 when the Blessed Mother first appeared to them.[/quote']

 

 

Just to be clear for anyone who doesn't know, the Church has not officially approved Medjugorje, and the local Bishop in that area has spoken out very strongly against it.

[amey311]

I will check out the books you've mentioned. No matter what the book, we will have to read it with her or to her. She is dyslexic and hates reading (although she actually, seemingly, reads quite well.

 

Has she tried reading thru a colored filter (like those colored report covers, or some quilting template plastic)? It can help some dyslexic people read better, and it's different colors for different people. I had a friend say that "the letters stopped changing direction" when she read thru a blue filter.

 

I think that's been the most practical piece of information I took from the one special ed class I had to take (most of the rest was about modifying mainstream classrooms).

[unsinkable]

Its important to note this is not officially recognized by the vatican.

 

I see I was beaten to the punch.;)

 

Its always fascinating to me that people who are so wedded to the vatican on a few issues love to trot out this out of the box miracle.

 

I always think Juan Diego is plentyof miracle and it is church approved. Or you know, Lourdes, even.

 

There is no need to be so snarky.

[Bluegoat]

I haven't read all the posts, so maybe someone has said this already -

 

but it seems to me the center of your daughter's question is "how do we know?"

 

That isn't just a question about Christianity though. How do we know about any historical event? How do we know about black holes (some know through experience - I personally take it as a matter of faith). How do we know the laws of the univere have always been the same, or that the sun will continue to rise every morning. How do we know the things we seem to see and experience are real and not dreams or illusions?

 

The posibility of human knowlege on anything depends on making particular faith based assumptions, and ultimately on the assumption that it is possible to know and discern things at all.

 

Unless we have some sense of how the kinds of knowledge that we take for granted fit into these assumptions, how secure they really are, we are in no position to evaluate how religious claims to knowledge stack up.

 

A ten year old is young to get deep into epistemology, but I think some exploration of these kinds of questions is possible. A great question for a science class for example is how we really know the things we study in science, and what the basic underlying assumptions of science are.

[Bluegoat]

I'd also add - for myself at that age, anything about saints or miracles would have been unconvincing. Lots of religions have miracles and saints and plenty of things have been mysterious and are now explained.

 

Believing in God because of unexplained events just creates a God of the Gaps - not so compelling or robust.

 

Also - a lot of kids these age go through a long period of unbelief. It is because they are increasingly logical but still very concrete. It may not be until there is more brain development that they are able to understand the deeper answers to the theological/philosophical questions.

[TracyR]

I would also see if you can talk to your Deacon or Priest and see if they can sit down and have a talk with her too. I'm most sure they can help answer questions that you and your husband are not able to do. Maybe have a family time with the Deacon or priest.

 

I always tell my daughters this one particular thing. Look at the art work around you. If you have a picture on the wall. point to it and ask her if the painting made itself. Did the drawing just appear , did it frame itself , did it put itself in the store so that I could buy it? Well, of course not. Now look at everything around you. There are trees, the grass, the sun, there is rain , there are animails. These things just didn't appear out of nowhere. Just like the painting has a creator, the earth has a Creator too. So, yes , though we cannot see Him, what God has made is here, and shows us HIs love for us.

 

We all have times when our faith faulters. I'll be the first to admit I have my days. But I have to remind myself that , yes, there is something much, much bigger than me out there, and that's God. Even on the days when I pray, and pray, and pray and don't get what I want. He is there carrying me.

 

But as a child is is very easy today to get caught up in all the worldly things. There is television who sends out secular messages, there is the Ipads and I pods and all those I things. There is the computer, and there are others who may not believe. The best thing you can do is pray for your daughter. Show her the love that God gives by servicing others. This is her journey.

If anything Jesus' birth is documented in history. It is not a made up story. It really truly happened. Now when, that can be debateable if it were winter or spring or summer , or fall. But the thing is Jesus was real, he walked this earth , he did what others said he did. Its hard for a child to understand because its not in the here and now. But hopefully someday she will understand.

Edited December 2, 2011 by TracyR

[Teachin'Mine]

Just to be clear for anyone who doesn't know, the Church has not officially approved Medjugorje, and the local Bishop in that area has spoken out very strongly against it.

 

Yes! Bishop Peric has spoken very strongly against the apparitions there. As a result, he has been silenced by the Church and the Vatican is now officially in charge of the apparitions. :D They formed a commission to study the apparitions, the visionaries, the priests, etc.. and are still in this process. Just so you know, no apparitions can be approved while they're still ongoing. Everything in the messages has been in accordance with Church teaching and has absolutely no doctrinal errors. :) They wait to give approval until after the apparitions have ended in all cases - for Fatima, Lourdes, Guadalupe, Laus, Kibeho ...

 

When Pope Benedict was Cardinal Ratzinger, it was rumored that he went to Medjugorje and he did meet with Fr. Barbaric in Austria. Pope John Paul II had said that if he were not Pope, he'd have been in Medjugorje. The lines for Confession are hours long - they're in the process of building new confessionals to accommodate the pilgrims. By the fruits you shall know ... :) Many priests, bishops, and cardinals go to Medjugorje as the Blessed Mother is appearing there.

 

ETA: Bishop Peric has also stated that he does not believe in the Blessed Mother's apparitions in Lourdes or Fatima either. As Catholics, we do not have to believe in any of this as it doesn't add anything to the faith. As for me, I believe, as others do, that Medjugorje is the continuation of what the Blessed Mother began in Fatima. : )

Edited December 2, 2011 by Teachin'Mine

[justamouse]

I'd also add - for myself at that age, anything about saints or miracles would have been unconvincing. Lots of religions have miracles and saints and plenty of things have been mysterious and are now explained.

 

Believing in God because of unexplained events just creates a God of the Gaps - not so compelling or robust.

 

Also - a lot of kids these age go through a long period of unbelief. It is because they are increasingly logical but still very concrete. It may not be until there is more brain development that they are able to understand the deeper answers to the theological/philosophical questions.

 

that's very true, BUT, within the Catholic church, everything is tested. The microscopes are brought out, things go to the labs, it's very much *proven*, which, can be comforting as a science bent person. In my opinion, the RCC takes the position of working hard to prove things false before they are eventually accepted. Which is why the wheels turn so slowly.

[Teachin'Mine]

Its important to note this is not officially recognized by the vatican.

 

I see I was beaten to the punch.;)

 

Its always fascinating to me that people who are so wedded to the vatican on a few issues love to trot out this out of the box miracle.

 

I always think Juan Diego is plentyof miracle and it is church approved. Or you know, Lourdes, even.

 

The Vatican permits private pilgrimages to Medjugorje. They are now officially in charge of the apparitions - not the outspoken local bishop. They have asked him to stop speaking publicly of his views on Medjugorje. ;) The visionaries have always been obedient. They do not speak out about Bishop Peric, they pray for him and ask that we do the same. Wasn't the bishop at Lourdes accusing St. Bernadette of lying until her final days? He finally came to believe, and I believe Bishop Peric will too. :) At one time, all of the approved apparitions were unapproved. The miracle of the sun occurred in Fatima while the apparitions were unapproved. The crowds gathered and were not disappointed.

[Fleur de Lis]

Maybe your daughter would be interested in learning about incorruptible saints, too? There are many saints bodies that are hundreds of years old in Europe that have not decayed. This is something people can see for themselves everyday, not just take other people's word for.

[Bluegoat]

that's very true, BUT, within the Catholic church, everything is tested. The microscopes are brought out, things go to the labs, it's very much *proven*, which, can be comforting as a science bent person. In my opinion, the RCC takes the position of working hard to prove things false before they are eventually accepted. Which is why the wheels turn so slowly.

 

 

I think proven is too strong a word here. It is not possible to prove a miracle - if it were, it would become an object for science.

 

Miracles and saints are not really meant though to prove the faith. That is putting the cart before the horse. Some Christian teachings are meant to tell people who do not yet have reason to believe why it makes sense to do so, while others are meant to increase the faith of those who already believe. Miracles have no meaning without God - you need to see how God could exist before a miracle is more than an unexplained event. And it is only in the context of understanding something about God that we can see what kinds of things really are miraculous.

 

THe Catholic Church looks carefully into purported miracles in modern times, yes. It is fair to say that if they support them, there is no other good explanation. That does not mean however they were actually miracles - they could simply be things that happened through some as yet unexplained process. The conclusion that the event was miraculous comes from a position of established faith.

 

To try to convince a concrete science type child based on reports of miracles is, I think, just as likely to turn her off as be helpful. Reading or hearing about miracles just isn't the same as experiencing them oneself, and that isn't something we can control.

[WeeBeaks]

When I was around that age or a tad older, I found it interesting to read about scientists who were Christian and felt that they saw the beauty of a creator in their work, say in the perfect patterns of human DNA or such.

 

No, it doesn't prove God exists. But I felt at that stage of my life better that people who I saw as smart, educated people who spent their every day immersed in science did believe in God. I was having a crisis of my own with peers that smart people didn't truly believe in God and that it was like the Easter Bunny or Santa Claus. I didn't have any role models in my life who were logical about religion at the time.

[Faithr]

Bluegoat, I don't know if you are right in your characterization of what the Church deems a miracle. I believe that if the Church can not find a medical or scientific reason for something after a very arduous and long examination, it attributes it to supernatural causes, which is why such things are required for someone to be named a saint officially.

 

I know a scientific guy who was converted to Catholicism because of the Incorruptables, so I think a study of miracles can cut either way in terms of how it affects belief.

[Bluegoat]

When I was around that age or a tad older, I found it interesting to read about scientists who were Christian and felt that they saw the beauty of a creator in their work, say in the perfect patterns of human DNA or such.

 

No, it doesn't prove God exists. But I felt at that stage of my life better that people who I saw as smart, educated people who spent their every day immersed in science did believe in God. I was having a crisis of my own with peers that smart people didn't truly believe in God and that it was like the Easter Bunny or Santa Claus. I didn't have any role models in my life who were logical about religion at the time.

:iagree:

 

This is I think similar to my experience, though I was older. It was only when I went to university and realized there were very well educated, rational, scholars who were Christians that I really started to consider its arguments more carefully - or realized that there were arguments, really, as my family didn't come from that kind of Christian background.