Memoria Press response to Limbaugh (classical studies)

[Mommy22alyns]

Sometimes, you can't win for losing, huh?! It just stinks in this economy, degree or not.

 

We are prayerful that his education will open more doors for him!

 

Thank you. :)

[Amy Jo]

My thoughts as well. Even Cothran says, "Provoked by a sign-carrying Wall Street occupier who bemoaned her "useless" classical studies degree and her resulting lack of employment..."

 

IMO, Rush's response was to someone who chose a degree that isn't highly sought out in the job market. If someone wants to "pursue knowledge", fine, but don't complain when you can't get a job with that degree.

 

If someone has enough money to spread around to further their "knowledge", more power to them. Some of us have limited funds and have to use them in a way to get both "knowledge" and a job.

 

Rush spends a lot of time encouraging people to read the writings of our Founding Fathers as well as quality literature. I've never heard him recommend ignorance:D He's a huge supporter of Hillsdale and the Heritage Foundation. And for those who feel he needs to improve his own education, I would suggest that you have NO idea what he does to educate himself - probably reads more and more variety than most of us here based on his frequent references. Of course Hillsdale and the Heritage Foundation are "conservative" and those who claim he is ignorant might claim the same about these institutions :D

 

:iagree:

 

Rush is big on history, I think he was responding to the whining and the economical reality of college. What do you learn in college anyway? For many classes I had except specialty things like science, a good book would have been better. And cheaper. I learned a lot more from a $15 Accounting for Dummies book than the worthless class I took requiring a $200 textbook. (And that doesn't include the cost of the class! At a community college!)

 

Today, colleges are for helping you get a job. Hopefully. Is that sad? I think so. But I think that's the way its going to stay. It costs to much to consider from anything but a practical (economical) point of view. If you want to be truly educated, it would be better to pick up a copy of the Well Educated Mind and read the books with friends. Or join a list like Latin Study.

 

What I'm saying is college has become too expensive to become worth it in some cases. If you were to go directly to a technical school or choose a major like engineering, healthcare or others that should show continued growth in the future, that's one thing. Spending that much money on an education without seriously looking at what your potential job market will look like just cannot be done anymore. I think because it's so expensive and people are losing faith that a degree=a job, the university system is going to see some major issues like the ps school system. They're cutting programs and raising tuition. It could become a place only for the elite or it will have to go through some reforms.

 

The blood in the water comment is referring to Penn State and the recent hazing death of a drum major for Florida A&M and the sex abuse allegations at Syracuse. The media has found some serious and extremely scandalous stories coming out of universities. I don't think they are going to drop it any time soon. Which means in all, students will be getting degrees that can't get them jobs, going into extreme debt and their parents will be terrified they are being subjected to who knows what there.

 

:iagree: with this too. I won't be able to pay for my kids to go to college. And I'm not sure college is a great place for them. The nearest state 4 year college was ranked as a top party school. I heard an investment company employee talk about setting aside money for college from when your kids were babies. I think it was half of our gross income. If the kids want college I'll help. We live near a 2 year college. But if they want to start a business or do a technical degree, that would be great too.

 

I think a classical education - as defined by Memoria Press - is important. But college is no longer the place for it. Maybe something will rise up that can provide more people with solid education, or maybe the colleges can be changed. Until then, I'm going to do what I can, at home.

 

(And yes, Rush has a lot of show biz. But good grief - look at the rest of the media. I like his attitude actually... *also ducking the firing squad*)

[mcconnellboys]

Yes, but what if you end up with a child who is college material, but who is not interested in any of the math/science majors that are landing jobs in our current economy (or projected to land jobs in future)? That is my conundrum.... And I think that is something that is happening to plenty of other kids in our country, as well. Not everyone is a math/science sort of person.... Even those business majors that are really getting/keeping decent jobs are math related (accounting, finance, economics).

 

I know how to spin him out into lots of different areas that would take advantage of his major. I'm not sure I can get him to sell himself to those people in interviews, but I know what direction to send him in, so I'm not so worried (right now, at least) about my particular son being able to get a job out of college. I can see how lots of other young folks like him get out of school, however, and can't seem to lock themselves into a job. I think many have had little help in how to find/land a job. I think perhaps schools need to do a better job of helping kids - particularly those in non-math/science majors - figure out what sorts of jobs they can do after school and how to land such jobs, move up once they're there, etc.

[Beth in SW WA]

 

Memoria press just lost my respect.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

I just unsubscribed from Memoria's newsletter. If Mr. Cothran's diatribe is representative of that organization I will spend my homeschool dollars elsewhere.

 

Did anyone read RL's original transcript or did you get the second-hand interpretation via Mr. Cothran?

 

I agree with Rush. Don't whine & moan about your job prospects and student loans if you made the choice to get a classical studies degree in this global economic nightmare. That's the point Rush is making -- and I enthusiastically agree.

Edited November 28, 2011 by Beth in SW WA
typo

[Missouri Okie]

http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2011/11/23/china-to-cancel-college-majors-that-dont-pay/

 

This is China's answer to worthless degrees....ban them.

[Michele B]

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

I just unsubscribed from Memoria's newsletter. If Mr. Cothran's diatribe is representative of that organization I will spend my homeschool dollars elsewhere.

 

Did anyone read RL's original transcript or did you get the second-hand interpretation via Mr. Cothran?

 

I agree with Rush. Don't whine & moan about your job prospects and student loans if you made the choice to get a classical studies degree in this global economic nightmare. That's the point Rush is making -- and I enthusiastically agree.

 

I read both actually. I didn't consider Mr. Cothran's response a diatribe. I thought he made well-reasoned, well-written, clear, and logical arguments in favor of studying the classics as well as actually agreeing with Rush about the state of many college departments.

 

He did not encourage anyone to whine about joblessness.

 

I am starting to wonder if people on this thread are projecting their own feelings on the subject onto one or another of these two men. I also wonder if anyone read the Memoria Press article.

 

Mr. Cothran/ Memoria Press lost your respect? How? By being gracious and actually thinking his arguments through before he delivered them to the public? Or because he reached a conclusion different than yours? And did he actually reach a different conclusion, or does he agree with Rush on the jobs issue, but still think there is value in studying the classics?

 

Here are a couple of things the man actually wrote.

 

"Limbaugh was right, of course, about the state of higher education, about colleges who don't tell students that taking out loans for majors that are not designed to make you marketable is not a good financial investment, and even about the state of many classical studies departments. " (So if you agree with Rush you are actually in agreement with Mr. Cothran as well.)

"In fact, in many ways Limbaugh's attack on classical education was an unfortunate case of friendly fire."

 

Those two quotations come from an article that is 1. gracious to the "opponent" and 2. has well-reasoned arguments. That raises Memoria Press in my opinion. Raving rants do not gain my good opinion just because I might be of the same opinion as the raver. Manners and intelligent arguments make debating a pleasure and should deserve one's respect whether you agree with the debater or not. (IMHO) ;) And when they make the SAME points about unrealistic assumptions for graduates, and one raves and the other articulates...well...

Edited November 28, 2011 by Michele B

[Critterfixer]

Spending that much money on an education without seriously looking at what your potential job market will look like just cannot be done anymore.

 

I don't think it ever should have been the modus operandi.

I agree with Rush. Don't whine & moan about your job prospects and student loans if you made the choice to get a classical studies degree in this global economic nightmare. That's the point Rush is making -- and I enthusiastically agree.

 

Note that Rush didn't attack the student at all. He attacked the college for not being upfront about the utility of the degree.

 

Now, I think both sides are missing data, and thus talking past each other. I'd like to see hard numbers, by year, of the fate of undergraduate classics majors. Perhaps a classics major is no worse off than any other degree, but the poor economy has sunk all boats?

[Michele B]

Note that Rush didn't attack the student at all.

 

Right, just calls her "Miss Brain-dead."

[Beth in SW WA]

I read both actually. I didn't consider Mr. Cothran's response a diatribe.

Are we reading the same article? It's a total whine-fest, imho.

 

I thought he made well-reasoned, well-written, clear, and logical arguments in favor of studying the classics as well as actually agreeing with Rush about the state of many college departments.

He let his emotions guide his writing. He is defending his industry. I don't blame him.

He did not encourage anyone to whine about joblessness.

 

I am starting to wonder if people on this thread are projecting their own feelings on the subject onto one or another of these two men. I also wonder if anyone read the Memoria Press article.

 

I did.

 

Mr. Cothran/ Memoria Press lost your respect? How? By being gracious and actually thinking his arguments through before he delivered them to the public?

 

Mr. Cothran didn't sound professional. I took note of that when I read it the first time last week.

 

Or because he reached a conclusion different than yours? And did he actually reach a different conclusion, or does he agree with Rush on the jobs issue, but still think there is value in studying the classics?

 

Here are a couple of things the man actually wrote.

 

"Limbaugh was right, of course, about the state of higher education, about colleges who don't tell students that taking out loans for majors that are not designed to make you marketable is not a good financial investment, and even about the state of many classical studies departments. " (So if you agree with Rush you are actually in agreement with Mr. Cothran as well.)

"In fact, in many ways Limbaugh's attack on classical education was an unfortunate case of friendly fire."

 

Those two quotations come from an article that is 1. gracious to the "opponent" and 2. has well-reasoned arguments. That raises Memoria Press in my opinion. Raving rants do not gain my good opinion just because I might be of the same opinion as the raver. Manners and intelligent arguments make debating a pleasure and should deserve one's respect whether you agree with the debater or not. (IMHO) ;) And when they make the SAME points about unrealistic assumptions for graduates, and one raves and the other articulates...well...

 

Michele, We can agree to disagree here. And that's ok.

I had a pseudo-debate with a group of moms on FB about the original rant by Rush. It didn't go well there either. I should have known better to criticize a classical ed degree with a group of faithful classical educators. Oops. :)

[Bluegoat]

Note that Rush didn't attack the student at all. He attacked the college for not being upfront about the utility of the degree.

 

Now, I think both sides are missing data, and thus talking past each other. I'd like to see hard numbers, by year, of the fate of undergraduate classics majors. Perhaps a classics major is no worse off than any other degree, but the poor economy has sunk all boats?

 

I've never heard of a university pushing classics as a great way to get job skills.

I've never heard of a university pushing classics as a great way to get job skills.

 

This happens all the time. Just one link

[Bluegoat]

This happens all the time. Just one link

 

It says specifically it is not professional training, and all the things that it says as far as actual skills are true. I did a classics degree, it does give those skills and those are the kinds of jobs people I graduated now have. I don't consider that to be the university not being upfront.

 

Not upfront would be suggesting that it was a ticket to a particular sort of job or that one could walk into a position on the basis of having the degree.

[Michele B]

Perhaps we did not read the same article. I cannot imagine how Mr. Cothran's article explaining the profound, demonstrable influence of "classic studies" on our culture could be described as a "whine-fest." Nor can I understand how so many claim to be on Rush's "side" when both his and Mr. Cothran's views on the desperate problems facing colleges and bureaucracy are the same. Mr. Cothran merely disagrees that classical studies is "worthless" as Rush put it.

[coffeefreak]

http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2011/11/23/china-to-cancel-college-majors-that-dont-pay/

 

This is China's answer to worthless degrees....ban them.

 

:lol:

 

Yes, but EVERY degree is worthless at some point and time. It's all simple economics, supply v/s demand. When I graduated from college, teachers were scarce. Everyone SCREAMED at me to get a teaching degree and I'd always have a job. Try telling that to the now millions of teachers out of work, or under paid to keep their jobs. Not to mention all the graduating teachers that don't have a snowballs chance in hades of finding a teaching job in the next decade. However, the pendulum will swing, less people will get teaching degrees, and there will be a shortage again.

 

China cracks me up.