staceyobu Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 I am seeing a doctor that is supposed to be the most natural at a super medical hospital. I know that I will be fighting upstream to get the birth I want. At the last appointment, they were super, super pushy about a flu shot. Nurse actually told me they would not allow me to leave the office without one. :glare: I didn't get it, and don't want it. I understand my risks. Would you take this as a bad sign that they are going to be difficult about everything? Or is a flu shot something that pretty much every ob office is going to insist on? I finally told them I would consider it and let them know at my next appointment. I'm wondering if they will actually drop me as a patient over this. :001_huh: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Peregrine Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Yep. Bad sign. Do they plan on holding you down and injecting you? Ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osmosis Mom Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Agree with bad sign. I have gotten injections offered and only gotten a nod when I refused. Perhaps they asked at the next visit and then they let it go. Sounds scary-pushy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tap Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Due to the risks with the swine flu and women/babies, I can see why they are pushing it. I do believe it should still be a patient's choice but the risk it real and the danger can be lethal. I would ask your doctor to write a letter and have you both sign it. I would ask that it state that you understand the risk and are doing so AMA. I would ask that it be put in your file and if anyone mentions it again, reference the form and refuse to discuss it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DianeW88 Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 They can and they might. The malpractice insurance for OBs these days is so stinking high, that many OB/GYNs I know are refusing to deliver anymore. They also will not take on any patient they consider "difficult" or putting themselves at an unnecessary risk for complications. I'm guessing that they're thinking that's what you're doing by refusing the flu shot. If you contract the flu and lose the baby, they're worried you'll sue. So sad that this is the way it is today, but that's about the size of it. If I were you, I might have some back-up OBs in mind in case they decide you drop you on your next visit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 (edited) I am seeing a doctor that is supposed to be the most natural at a super medical hospital. I know that I will be fighting upstream to get the birth I want. At the last appointment, they were super, super pushy about a flu shot. Nurse actually told me they would not allow me to leave the office without one. :glare: I didn't get it, and don't want it. I understand my risks. Would you take this as a bad sign that they are going to be difficult about everything? Or is a flu shot something that pretty much every ob office is going to insist on? I finally told them I would consider it and let them know at my next appointment. I'm wondering if they will actually drop me as a patient over this. :001_huh: Wow. They are really overdoing the flu shots and I just read they only work for 1 out of 100 people. That means that 99 people are getting injected with God knows what for no benefit. Pregnant. Heck, no. I'd certainly not put anything in writing and hope they don't mention it again, if you want to go back there. I suspect it will be a problem, but if you want to give them one more try, do it but be prepared with a back up if they are pushy again. And consider it a very bad sign if they are. Edited October 17, 2011 by TranquilMind Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staceyobu Posted October 17, 2011 Author Share Posted October 17, 2011 Wow. They are really overdoing the flu shots and I just read they only work for 1 out of 100 people. That means that 99 people are getting injected with God knows what for no benefit. Pregnant. Heck, no. Do you have a source for that? I feel like everything I find on vaccines is along the lines of "you will die without this" or "you will die with this". It's frustrating to try to determine the truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IsabelC Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 (edited) Nurse actually told me they would not allow me to leave the office without one.That's a big red flag for me. I wouldn't go back there, purely because I won't employ a care provider (and yes, you are your doctor's employer) who expects to order me about instead of seeking informed consent.It's possible that you do really need a flu shot, but even so, they still need to explain why it's important and allow you to make the decision. Eg, "We strongly recommend you have this shot, it's necessary for your (or baby's) health for these reasons..." They should be prepared to give you written information as well, if you request this. Edited October 17, 2011 by Hotdrink Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Do you have a source for that? I feel like everything I find on vaccines is along the lines of "you will die without this" or "you will die with this". It's frustrating to try to determine the truth. There are a number of sources, but here is one And this is an abstract of a recent study here at Wiley Online Library From Wiley: under ideal conditions (vaccine completely matching circulating viral configuration) 33 healthy adults need to be vaccinated to avoid one set of influenza symptoms. Ideal conditions where the vaccine completely matches the bugs going around NEVER happen. In average conditions (partially matching vaccine) 100 people need to be vaccinated to avoid one set of influenza symptoms. This is what generally happens. Too big of a risk to benefit ratio for me. And I had the swine flu. It kicked my butt; I was down for over 3 weeks. My kids and husband barely got a sniffle. I'll never have it again, by golly. Vaccine use did not affect the number of people hospitalised or working days lost but caused one case of Guillian-Barré syndrome (a major neurological condition leading to paralysis) for every one million vaccinations. Fifteen of the 36 trials were funded by vaccine companies and four had no funding declaration. Our results may be an optimistic estimate because company-sponsored influenza vaccines trials tend to produce results favorable to their products and some of the evidence comes from trials carried out in ideal viral circulation and matching conditions and because the harms evidence base is limited.. And this should be noted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wapiti Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Personally, I'd be very surprised if this were a long-term issue between you and this provider. Perhaps the office had a bad outcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staceyobu Posted October 17, 2011 Author Share Posted October 17, 2011 There are a number of sources, but here is one And this is an abstract of a recent study here at Wiley Online Library Ideal conditions where the vaccine completely matches the bugs going around NEVER happen. This is what generally happens. Too big of a risk to benefit ratio for me. And I had the swine flu. It kicked my butt; I was down for over 3 weeks. My kids and husband barely got a sniffle. I'll never have it again, by golly. And this should be noted. Thanks for the sources. That helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Hotdrink;That's a big red flag for me. I wouldn't go back there, purely because I won't employ a care provider who expects to order me about instead of seeking informed consent. Good luck on "informed" consent. That's something we really never give, because we are never told all of the dire things that can happen. Does YOUR doctor ever give you a list of disclaimers such as is required for drug commercials on TV? Mine doesn't. All you get on TV is smiling, happy people playing tennis or something while the disclaimer goes on and on "Causes death, dismemberment, limb detachment, decapitation, death, suicide...." Ok, I exaggerate a little. But if you really listen, it is pretty startling. And of course California is so whacked that Jerry Brown just signed into law last week that 12 YEAR OLDS can give "informed consent" to get the Gardasil vaccine WITHOUT THEIR PARENTS' KNOWLEDGE OR CONSENT! Unbelievable. I don't recognize this country most of the time. It's possible that you do really need a flu shot, but even so, they still need to explain why it's important and allow you to make the decision. Eg, "We strongly recommend you have this shot, it's necessary for your (or baby's) health for these reasons..." Right. They forget that they work for YOU. You are not their subject who can be ordered around at will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linguistmama Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Saying they won't let you leave the office without the shot is a HUGE red flag! That's completely different from explaining why they want you to have it. I would be very worried what the ob would be like during the birth if this is what happens when you want to refuse a flu shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Saying they won't let you leave the office without the shot is a HUGE red flag! That's completely different from explaining why they want you to have it. I would be very worried what the ob would be like during the birth if this is what happens when you want to refuse a flu shot. Reminds me of the old Ann Landers (Advice columnist that only we oldies will remember) phrase: When someone tells you who he is, believe him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWOB Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 I definitely see it as a red flag. You are the second person in a week that has complained about OBs pushing the flu shot. What is up with that? I was never harassed about getting a flu shot. Why does it seem like so many are pushing it now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linguistmama Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Reminds me of the old Ann Landers (Advice columnist that only we oldies will remember) phrase: When someone tells you who he is, believe him. Yep, I'd rather know what I was dealing with now than have them pull a bunch of stuff during labor! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justasque Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 They are really overdoing the flu shots and I just read they only work for 1 out of 100 people. That means that 99 people are getting injected with God knows what for no benefit. In average conditions (partially matching vaccine) 100 people need to be vaccinated to avoid one set of influenza symptoms. Putting aside the issues of whether one should choose to have the shot, I don't read these two statements the same way. The first statement, "I just read they only work for 1 out of 100 people. That means that 99 people are getting injected with God knows what for no benefit.", sounds like the shot only prevents flu in 1 out of 100 people, and the other 99 are going to get the flu even though they had the vaccine. The second statement, "In average conditions (partially matching vaccine) 100 people need to be vaccinated to avoid one set of influenza symptoms.", sounds like it means that out of 100 vaccinated people, only one would have gotten flu had they not had the vaccine. Of course, it's impossible to know which one! It's also unclear from this study what effect the herd immunity had, as they are comparing vaxed people to unvaxed people, but of course the unvaxed people get some protection from living amongst vaxxed people, since the virus won't be as prevalent as it would if no one was vaxxed. So I don't think you can look at this study and say "If no one got the vax, there would only be one more case of flu per 100 people", because we don't know how the flu would spread if more people were susceptible to it due to not having been vaxxed. KWIM? All that said, OP, if your health care provider is not taking an attitude of informed consent - that is, explaining risks and benefits and letting you decide what is best for you and your baby, they are not behaving appropriately, IMHO. I have always been able to find providers who treated me like an intelligent person who could make informed decisions for me and my children. However, I know that this is not easy to find in some areas, and I have seen how treatment can change based on perceived class/race/education/economic status/etc. of the patient. Perhaps you'd like to interview a few other providers. If midwifery is an option in your area and would provide the birth environment that you would prefer (hospital, freestanding birth center, home, whatever - in my area you can find midwives in all these settings), that would be where I would start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forget-Me-Not Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Was it JUST the nurse who was super pushy, or was it the physician as well? If it seemed to be mainly the nurse, I would speak directly to the physician about what she said at your next visit. He may have no clue that she's behaving that way toward his patients. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lily_Grace Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Around here they're giving the exact same flu shot they did last year. There's no new formula, it's the same thing as before. Why? And they're pushing it just as hard. We'll opt out, tyvm. As a family who got the flu last year even though half of us had the shot, I find it extremely pointless to reinoculate for the same disease (not a different strain) on a yearly basis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twoxcell Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Or is a flu shot something that pretty much every ob office is going to insist on? I have never been offered a flu shot by my OB or CNM, and I have given birth 3 times during flu season. In fact my youngest was born the year the news was freaking out over Swine Flu.;) The only time anyone has ever mentioned a flu shot to me was after my youngest was born and the Dr. came in to check baby over for discharge. He said he could give any in my family one if we wanted, I declined and that was that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jyniffrec Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Was it JUST the nurse who was super pushy, or was it the physician as well? If it seemed to be mainly the nurse, I would speak directly to the physician about what she said at your next visit. He may have no clue that she's behaving that way toward his patients. :iagree: I would hope this is the case. If it isn't I would be dumping that office right away. We see a lot of doctors in our family. If I don't perceive an attitude of respectful collaboration from their end then we do not continue the relationship. If something is pushed that I disagree with I will usually listen and if I am not convinced I will smile and say something like, "I appreciate your input but I just so not believe it is either necessary or good for me/dc". That usually takes it off the table. If not, then I fire them and move on (and this has only happened one time - good doctors appreciate involved, thoughtful patients and caregivers, even if they disagree at times). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LidiyaDawn Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 I am seeing a doctor that is supposed to be the most natural at a super medical hospital. I know that I will be fighting upstream to get the birth I want. At the last appointment, they were super, super pushy about a flu shot. Nurse actually told me they would not allow me to leave the office without one. :glare: I didn't get it, and don't want it. I understand my risks. Would you take this as a bad sign that they are going to be difficult about everything? Or is a flu shot something that pretty much every ob office is going to insist on? I finally told them I would consider it and let them know at my next appointment. I'm wondering if they will actually drop me as a patient over this. :001_huh: Given the risks involved for pregnant women who contract influenza, it makes sense to me that the doctor would encourage you to get immunized. Saying that they "wouldn't let you leave the office without one" was likely just a dramatic expression of their belief of the importance. Y'know? We get our 'flu shot' every year, so no… I wouldn't consider their encouragement a "bad sign". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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