momma aimee Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 stupid question of the night -- are Anglican and Episcopal the same? they are NOT, correct? then explain the reason a search of for Anglican churches pulls up Episcopalian churches? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cindergretta Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 I am Episcopal. We are part of the Anglican Communion. (For now... LOL) The Archbishop of Canterbury is our leader. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KristinaBreece Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 I thought Episcopalian was the American branch of the Anglican church. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twoforjoy Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 I thought Episcopalian was the American branch of the Anglican church. Yup. The Episcopal Church is the U.S. branch of the Anglican Communion. However, some individual churches in the United States, which disagree with the full inclusion of GLBT people in all aspects of church life in the Episcopal Church, have left the Episcopal Church and joined with other provinces that take conservative stances on certain contested issues like the role of GLBT people in the church or the ordination of women. Episcopalians are Anglicans, but most Anglicans are not part of the Episcopal Church, to put it another way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momma aimee Posted October 12, 2011 Author Share Posted October 12, 2011 Yup. The Episcopal Church is the U.S. branch of the Anglican Communion. However, some individual churches in the United States, which disagree with the full inclusion of GLBT people in all aspects of church life in the Episcopal Church, have left the Episcopal Church and joined with other provinces that take conservative stances on certain contested issues like the role of GLBT people in the church or the ordination of women. Episcopalians are Anglicans, but most Anglicans are not part of the Episcopal Church, to put it another way. OK that makes sense -- I had a thought that Anglicans are 'more Conservative' than Episcopalians -- and THAT must be the root of it. how would one find a Anglican vs Episcopalian church locally? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 You are looking for Anglican Church in America parishes I believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 The Anglican Communion is the worldwide group. There are different members of that communion. Episcopalians are Anglican, but there are other churches that are Anglican too. You seem to want one that is Anglican, but not Episcopal, and that is hard to find in the USA, most will be Episcopal of one flavor or another. But you might luck out...just depends on where you are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twoforjoy Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 OK that makes sense -- I had a thought that Anglicans are 'more Conservative' than Episcopalians -- and THAT must be the root of it. Not necessarily. More conservative U.S. Episcopalians and Episcopal churches often identify as Anglican in order to separate themselves from EC positions, but there are plenty of liberal Anglicans worldwide. how would one find a Anglican vs Episcopalian church locally? What specifically are you looking for? Do you want a church that isn't affiliated with the Episcopal Church at all, or would you be okay with a conservative Episcopal church? There are Episcopal churches that are much more conservative in flavor: they'll often call themselves "traditional" churches and may use an older version of the BCP. They might or might not identify as Anglican, but they are still part of the EC. I attend a more liberal Episcopal Church, but we've got a large conservative parish in the city. If you want a U.S. Anglican church not affiliated with the EC, that's a bit harder. I know that some churches are affiliated with other provinces, but for all of the talk of churches leaving the EC, very few actually have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cindergretta Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 My church is a conservative *parish* in a liberal dioscese. We are St. ----'s ------- Episcopal Church. If things continue in the current direction, there will be a schism and the ECUSA will end up *out* of the Anglican Communion. IIRC, it is already on "probation." (Myrecollections are murky, at best, right now. Hopefully my ds17 will come back from Convention next weekend and enlighten me.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momma aimee Posted October 12, 2011 Author Share Posted October 12, 2011 Not necessarily. More conservative U.S. Episcopalians and Episcopal churches often identify as Anglican in order to separate themselves from EC positions, but there are plenty of liberal Anglicans worldwide. What specifically are you looking for? Do you want a church that isn't affiliated with the Episcopal Church at all, or would you be okay with a conservative Episcopal church? There are Episcopal churches that are much more conservative in flavor: they'll often call themselves "traditional" churches and may use an older version of the BCP. They might or might not identify as Anglican, but they are still part of the EC. I attend a more liberal Episcopal Church, but we've got a large conservative parish in the city. If you want a U.S. Anglican church not affiliated with the EC, that's a bit harder. I know that some churches are affiliated with other provinces, but for all of the talk of churches leaving the EC, very few actually have. I'll have to look, i doubt there is much in this area Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ewe Mama Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Yup. The Episcopal Church is the U.S. branch of the Anglican Communion. However, some individual churches in the United States, which disagree with the full inclusion of GLBT people in all aspects of church life in the Episcopal Church, have left the Episcopal Church and joined with other provinces that take conservative stances on certain contested issues like the role of GLBT people in the church or the ordination of women. Episcopalians are Anglicans, but most Anglicans are not part of the Episcopal Church, to put it another way. This information rubs me the wrong way. The media has "decided" that the churches who left the Episcopal Church did so over GLBT issues. Because GLBT issues are the current darling of the media, they report all information about the churches leaving the Episcopal diocese in this light. That is not true. The main reason for the split is that the majority of Episcopal churches have a very liberal agenda and are straying farther and farther from Biblical truth and heritage. Many of the bishops no longer believe in the virgin birth, that Jesus was the son of God, or that Jesus was resurrected, but during the Liturgy, they will stand up and read from the Book of Common Prayer, which affirms all of those things. They don't believe in them, yet they stand up in front of a congregation using prayers written about Christ's resurrection. I have a huge problem with this. In the majority of diocese in the USA, the Episcopal Church has removed itself from sound doctrine. Jesus didn't come to win a popularity contest. He had thousands of people following him for a time, but the longer he taught, the fewer followers he had. The Anglican Church in America is working to have a strong biblical foundation, with priests, bishops, and archbishops who are held accountable for what they believe and teach their congregation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twoforjoy Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 This information rubs me the wrong way. The media has "decided" that the churches who left the Episcopal Church did so over GLBT issues. Because GLBT issues are the current darling of the media, they report all information about the churches leaving the Episcopal diocese in this light. That is not true. The main reason for the split is that the majority of Episcopal churches have a very liberal agenda and are straying farther and farther from Biblical truth and heritage. Many of the bishops no longer believe in the virgin birth, that Jesus was the son of God, or that Jesus was resurrected, but during the Liturgy, they will stand up and read from the Book of Common Prayer, which affirms all of those things. They don't believe in them, yet they stand up in front of a congregation using prayers written about Christ's resurrection. I have a huge problem with this. In the majority of diocese in the USA, the Episcopal Church has removed itself from sound doctrine. Jesus didn't come to win a popularity contest. He had thousands of people following him for a time, but the longer he taught, the fewer followers he had. The Anglican Church in America is working to have a strong biblical foundation, with priests, bishops, and archbishops who are held accountable for what they believe and teach their congregation. I don't know, that kind of strikes me like saying that the South didn't cede because of slavery. Well, yeah, there were other issues at play, but to say that it wasn't about slavery is to downplay the absolute centrality of that issue. I think to say that GLBT issues aren't the primary issue is to downplay how absolutely central they are to the churches that are leaving (churches that didn't leave earlier even though theological liberalism has been a part of the EC for a very, very long time). I'm rubbed the wrong way by the implication that the EC has supported the full inclusion of GLBT people in church life to "win a popularity contest." Certainly it's NOT a popular position for them to take as members of the Anglican Communion! For most Anglicans who support full affirmation of GLBT individuals and couples, it's a matter of love and justice, not popularity or cultural accommodation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 And to clarify, there are many many many very devout Episcopal Priests. I attend a wonderful church with a wonderful priest. She believes every word of the creed. She preaches the true message of Christ. But, she is a she. So she would not be able to be a priest in these splintered off Anglican groups. It isn't just about GLBT, it is also over the role of women in the church. Not to mention , it is entirely possible to be total conservative on all these issues, and still be in the Episcopal Church. The Church doesn't dictate how to believe on these things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starr Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 and to add to the confusion, some of the churches that have left TEC do have woman priests. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momma aimee Posted October 12, 2011 Author Share Posted October 12, 2011 why can't anything do cut and dry and easy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 To add even more confusion, some Episcopal Churches (such as the one near my home) call themselves Anglican Catholic (or Anglo-Catholic). These churches are part of the Episcopal Church, and part of the Anglican communion, and part of the local Episcopal diocese, but they have a tilt towards the Catholic sensibility without being part of the Roman Catholic Church (for now anyway). Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WishboneDawn Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 My church is a conservative *parish* in a liberal dioscese. We are St. ----'s ------- Episcopal Church. If things continue in the current direction, there will be a schism and the ECUSA will end up *out* of the Anglican Communion. IIRC, it is already on "probation." (Myrecollections are murky, at best, right now. Hopefully my ds17 will come back from Convention next weekend and enlighten me.) No. More conservative Episcopal elements may have been calling for the ECUSA to be put on probation but it doesn't seem at all likely and it is not currently on probation. It's standing is fine. What's more likely is a schism that involves more conservative elements leaving the communion rather then any element, liberal or otherwise, being kicked out. The ECUSA is at the leading edge of the direction many western Anglican dioceses are already headed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cindergretta Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Ok. That wasn't what my priest told me. If he actually came at it quite differently from what you posted. But I don't care enough about it in a public sense to argue about it here. I will continue to discuss it with my priest and draw my conclusions thusly instead of from reading a message board. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WishboneDawn Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 I don't know, that kind of strikes me like saying that the South didn't cede because of slavery. Well, yeah, there were other issues at play, but to say that it wasn't about slavery is to downplay the absolute centrality of that issue. I think to say that GLBT issues aren't the primary issue is to downplay how absolutely central they are to the churches that are leaving (churches that didn't leave earlier even though theological liberalism has been a part of the EC for a very, very long time). I'm rubbed the wrong way by the implication that the EC has supported the full inclusion of GLBT people in church life to "win a popularity contest." Certainly it's NOT a popular position for them to take as members of the Anglican Communion! For most Anglicans who support full affirmation of GLBT individuals and couples, it's a matter of love and justice, not popularity or cultural accommodation. :iagree: If there are issues other then GBLT ordination and marriages and the ordination of women that are driving more conservative parishes out of the ECUSA (and the Anglican church of Canada for that matter) then they've done a very poor job of communicating that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WishboneDawn Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Ok. That wasn't what my priest told me. If he actually came at it quite differently from what you posted. But I don't care enough about it in a public sense to argue about it here. I will continue to discuss it with my priest and draw my conclusions thusly instead of from reading a message board. :) Or research it yourself. :confused: I am finding references to the Anglican Communion calling for a moratorium of the consecration of gay bishops in the ECUSA which the ECUSA choose instead to adopt a policy of "exercising restraint" (so I seem to have exaggerated the communion's position) but nothing on the ECUSA being put on probation. And the source on that comes from 2006. Here's an excellent site with breakdown of the matter that contains good citations and references you can track down. However, there's no mention of the ECUSA being on probation. I think your minister is mistaken on that point ( I used to think ministers didn't make mistakes, until I got to be friends a bunch of them. :D). The only reference I can find in regards to probation comes from a former AAC president, the Rev. David Andersonhere (from 2004). Harder times ahead? To strong applause, Anderson said he would like to see the ECUSA censured by the primates and the Archbishop of Canterbury. He also told conference-goers that, rather than conservative Episcopalians leaving the ECUSA, those whom he said committed the schismatic act should be the ones to go. "I would like to see the Episcopal Church censured, put on a probation status and called to repentance and if they do not repent, then certain things need to happen that are of a long-term nature. Some of the revisionists have implied: why haven't we just left, we're so schismatic anyway," Anderson said. "I believe that we gathered are the orthodox historically Anglican Christian faith within the United States. The cemeteries have our loved ones laid to rest. The nurseries have our children and our godchildren in them. This is our church and I want to see this church reformed, renewed, called to repentance, to experience the full grace of God's forgiveness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 why can't anything do cut and dry and easy? The Anglican communion is not the place for it. It is traditionally inclusive of a fair bit of variation in belief - see Spycar's post on high church. Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris in VA Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Not to get into the fray, but... The churches that have split from the Episcopal church and call themselves Anglican (there are several groups) are not considered part of the Anglican Communion by the head of that Communion, the Archbishop of Canterbury. (And he's not like the Pope--he's an "equal among equals.") The "regular" Episcopal churches are still in the Anglican Communion. So far. Weird, huh? And the main debate is certainly over homosexuality and women's ord, but it is because of a different reading of Scripture--so you could say the issue is Scriptural interpretation and still be right. Anglo-Catholic is a particular "flavor" of the Episcopal Church; the liturgy tends to be Rite One, which is one of 3 choices in the prayer book, and there are often different parts of the service that come into play--for instance, there's sometimes incense, or the priest may refer to the Eucharist as the Mass. There may be an altar to Mary, as in a Catholic parish, and you may find people saying the Rosary. It's still Episcopalian, just with a Catholic vibe. An Anglo-Catholic parish may NOT have a Marian vibe, may not refer to Mass, or may not have incense or have the veneration of the Blessed Sacrament, or may even offer Rite Two (or Rite 3, which is really not called that but is another Rite) on occasion, and still be called AC. The "Pissys" are one complicated lot! :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WishboneDawn Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 The "Pissys" are one complicated lot! :D :lol: I think it's our greatest weakness but also our greatest strength.:001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momma aimee Posted October 12, 2011 Author Share Posted October 12, 2011 ;) my head is spinning ;) this is why i have never liked church history (big picture) I can not keep it all straight .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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