Language Arts Woes

[Haiku]

My son is a disaster in language arts. He's 8 and in 3rd grade.

 

1. He can't spell anything. This morning he spelled as hs.

 

2. His handwriting is atrocious. All his letters are the same size, and many of them are misformed. His y looks like a sideways s. We spent several years working on on handwriting and he has never improved.

 

3. He is not learning grammar. We went through FLL 1/2, and I don't think he learned anything except the definitions of noun and verb. He can't apply them. We are now in FLL3, and we are working on adjectives and adverbs. He doesn't get it. At all. He often can't even identify the verb in a three-word sentence.

 

4. We're working through WWE3, and the dictations are a complete joke. There's no way he could take a dictation that long. I routinely cut them in half or more, and I just make up my own.

 

5. He actually reads ok, although he has a very hard time sounding out unfamiliar words.

 

6. Technically, English is his second language, but he's been at it for 6 years, so he really should have it down. But he has a speech impediment and he still misuses and mispronounces words. For example, he still says "tooken" instead of "taken." This morning, while reading, he was unable to pronounce the word "insect" even after I said it for him several times.

 

I'm getting worried because he is just going to fall behind if he can't get these basic things nailed down. He was in speech for several years and they finally said he had gone as far as he could at the time, so he's not in speech right now.

 

Ideas or suggestions?

 

Tara

[NicAnn]

Was he in speech through the schools or a private therapy? If it wasn't private, I would consider that. There are some wonderful speech pathologists out there. My brother has a horrible speech impediment that wasn't solved in school, and I so wish my mother would take him to someone else.

 

I'm sorry, I have no advice with the other questions. Best of luck to you two!

[WishboneDawn]

Take him back to where he is?

 

Apples and Bears would be a great place to start with spelling. My son has some sort of CAPD issue and speech problems but A&P has helped him work through those and he's actually a pretty good little speller now.

 

There's also a Dancing Bears fast track option for kids with some reading ability. It might not be a bad choice to take him back in phonics with that so he can tackle bigger words.

 

You can look at book in full on the page I linked to. Just click on their pictures for the full (but watermarked) pdf.

[NotSoObvious]

FWIW...

 

My daughter didn't talk until she was 4 and has some language issues. We did FLL 1/2 and WWE 2 in 3rd grade and now she's doing really well on the next levels in 4th grade. She really just needed another year of growth. Can you backup and just do more of FLL 2 and WWE 2, and focus on just providing a language rich year with lots of reading and experiences?

 

FLL and WWE are, in my PS teacher opinion, more advanced than what he'd be doing in school for the comparable level.

 

I wouldn't hesitate to just hold off on those levels until next year.

[Haiku]

I wouldn't hesitate to just hold off on those levels until next year.

 

Thanks, I have considered that. The thing that most worries me is that, as my son was adopted from overseas and his background is basically unknown, his age is approximated. In reality he could be 10 or nearing 10. If that is the case, he is WAY behind. I treat him like an 8 year old, and he definitely functions as the (annoying) little brother ;) , but in reality he could be older than our 9 year old. I don't want to shortchange him by being either too easygoing with his lessons ("He is only 8, after all.") or too hard on him ("If he's really 10, he needs to be further along than he is!")

 

Does that make sense?

 

He was in private speech therapy.

 

Thanks for the suggestion of Apples and Pears. I'll look into it.

 

Tara

[Aurelia]

Could he possibly have vision, auditory or fine motor issues? It sounds like he really struggles with auditory input, since FLL 1/2 and the WWE dictations require auditory discrimmination. Is he capable of making his letters differently? How is he with other fine motor activities? Visually, he sounds like he struggles since he struggles with his letters and spelling.

 

At the very least, I would take him back, since it sounds like the levels he is working on are above his head, and try to teach him differently. Maybe try something like The Sentence Family for grammar, Winning with Writing to improve composition, and Apples & Pears for spelling and handwriting. You might also consider Callirobics to have him practice the different strokes to help remediate his handwriting.

[Heather in VA]

I agree with looking into more or different speech therapy. It will be very difficult for him to spelling things correctly if his pronunciation is poor. With WWE, are all of his problems in the dictation portion? If the problem is only with dictation, then stay at that level but adjust the dictations, gradually increasing them as he improves. If it's the whole level, then go back down to WWE2 until he builds up those skills.

 

As far as spelling goes, I would recommend something like All About Spelling, STWR etc. Something that really focuses on the phonograms and sounds. I think it would really help to focus on each sound in each word.

 

Heather

[bnrmom]

My 10yo 5th grader is doing WWE3 right now. No way could he do the WWE4 dictations - he even has trouble with the WWE3 ones! I cheat a little by letting him read the sentences with me at first, and then we sometimes do one sentence at a time instead of all 3. He does better when it's more modern language, like the Super-Duper dictation, but had a harder time with the Paul Revere ones that used words and phrasing he wasn't used to.

 

Anyhow, this is all to say I wouldn't be too freaked that your 8yo is struggling with WWE3.

 

We have been through a lot of speech therapy with my older son. He didn't talk until he was 3.5yo, but had every expert stumped because he had no other issues at all, and they all kept insisting there was no such thing as a late talker. They tried doing speech therapy with him but we stopped because it was doing more harm than good. Once he did begin talking he was very hard to understand so we did about a year of articulation therapy which helped immensely. But we spent years doing pointless assessments and finding the right therapist to work with.

 

Of course every stituation was different, and even though we had a lot of pointless and disappointing evaluations, assesments and therapy sessions, I still recommend going through it to find the help he needs.

[Momling]

Just like you might chart a preemie's development differently from a newborn's, you could look at his English skills in relation to the 6 years that he has been in an English speaking environment. Does he talk/write/have the vocabulary of a 6 year old? If so, I'd just have him start from there.

If he's not moving forward (at least a bit), I'd have him evaluated for learning disabilities.

[NotSoObvious]

Just like you might chart a preemie's development differently from a newborn's, you could look at his English skills in relation to the 6 years that he has been in an English speaking environment. Does he talk/write/have the vocabulary of a 6 year old? If so, I'd just have him start from there.

If he's not moving forward (at least a bit), I'd have him evaluated for learning disabilities.

 

:iagree:

[Lori D.]

My son is a disaster in language arts. He's 8 and in 3rd grade.

 

1. He can't spell anything. This morning he spelled as hs.

 

2. His handwriting is atrocious. All his letters are the same size, and many of them are misformed. His y looks like a sideways s. We spent several years working on on handwriting and he has never improved.

 

3. He is not learning grammar. We went through FLL 1/2, and I don't think he learned anything except the definitions of noun and verb. He can't apply them. We are now in FLL3, and we are working on adjectives and adverbs. He doesn't get it. At all. He often can't even identify the verb in a three-word sentence.

 

4. We're working through WWE3, and the dictations are a complete joke. There's no way he could take a dictation that long. I routinely cut them in half or more, and I just make up my own.

 

5. He actually reads ok, although he has a very hard time sounding out unfamiliar words.

 

6. Technically, English is his second language, but he's been at it for 6 years, so he really should have it down. But he has a speech impediment and he still misuses and mispronounces words. For example, he still says "tooken" instead of "taken." This morning, while reading, he was unable to pronounce the word "insect" even after I said it for him several times.

 

Ideas or suggestions?

 

 

 

No expert here, but all my research for our DS with language arts disabilities leads me to suggest looking into dysgraphia (your #1, #2 and #4 above) and possibly dyslexia as well (#1 and #5 above).

 

This article lists non-typical symptoms of dysgraphia.

This article explains the different types of dysgraphia.

This website has a lot of articles and links (click on and read all the links in the list on the left-hand side of the page).

 

 

Also, have you ruled out the possibility of vision problems (needing glasses for correction), and vision tracking and processing (needing specific "training" therapies) through specific testing? Also, be sure to get a detailed hearing test -- if some of DS's auditory ranges are compromised, that would make a LOT of sense as to the spelling, sounding out, and speech issues -- you can't say properly what you can't hear to begin with!

 

 

Another thought: Does DS have areas he excels in or is advanced in? Often young students develop very lopsidedly, but by around age 10-12 pretty much even out (as long as there is no dysfunction or disability). Boys especially tend to develop the language arts skills later and the math skills earlier.

 

 

One last thought, again only from our past experience, which is very different from yours, so this is FWIW: both FFL and WWE are very formal "left-brain" types of programs. (Take in information well through auditory sources, written sources, connects with workbooks, etc.). Your DS might be extremely "right brain" and need more hands-on and visual programs to even begin to connect.

 

For some general help I highly recommend:

 

"Unicorns are Real: A Right-Brain Approach to Learning" (Vitale)

Whether your DS is a right- or left-brain learner, what is SO helpful about this book are the simple and specific diagnostic tests you can do at home with him to help you narrow down what might be going on!

 

Dianne Craft's website

Specific techniques to help unblock any "blocked learning gates"; nutritional supplements that may be low in the DC, making it difficult to make brain connections; right-brain teaching tips for each of the language arts areas and for math.

 

 

I would suggest that the priority right now would be to figure out what's going on -- why language arts are not connecting for him -- rather than curriculum hop. If there is dysfunction/disability, a new program won't help until the underlying problem is diagnosed and dealt with; and if it's a matte of delayed development and brain maturity, again, DC just aren't going to "click" until their brains are ready to.

 

Again, I'm no expert, and hopefully am way off-base with the thought that there is dysfunction, and that is just a matter of matching up with a program that is a better fit. BEST of luck! Warmly, Lori D.

[Lori D.]

Thanks, I have considered that. The thing that most worries me is that, as my son was adopted from overseas and his background is basically unknown, his age is approximated. In reality he could be 10 or nearing 10. If that is the case, he is WAY behind. I treat him like an 8 year old, and he definitely functions as the (annoying) little brother ;) , but in reality he could be older than our 9 year old. I don't want to shortchange him by being either too easygoing with his lessons ("He is only 8, after all.") or too hard on him ("If he's really 10, he needs to be further along than he is!")

 

 

But children develop emotionally and mentally at different speeds; the best thing to do is to teach to where he is -- if he is acting emotionally and academically as an 8yo, then that's where you need to meet him -- that is not short changing him, but being realistic. If he at some point jumps forward in maturity and ability by a year or two, then you adjust at that time and make that the new "meeting point". :)

 

Sadly, our culture makes WAAAYY too much about being a certain age -- which has little bearing on actual ability. But that's one of the results of public schooling -- it's easier to sort students by age and stick all the ones of one age into one classroom, rather than take the time to individually get to know the students and see what their needs and strengths are... But I will stop ranting now. ;)

 

Warmly, Lori D.

[Alyeska]

But children develop emotionally and mentally at different speeds; the best thing to do is to teach to where he is -- if he is acting emotionally and academically as an 8yo, then that's where you need to meet him -- that is not short changing him, but being realistic. If he at some point jumps forward in maturity and ability by a year or two, then you adjust at that time and make that the new "meeting point". :)

 

Sadly, our culture makes WAAAYY too much about being a certain age -- which has little bearing on actual ability. But that's one of the results of public schooling -- it's easier to sort students by age and stick all the ones of one age into one classroom, rather than take the time to individually get to know the students and see what their needs and strengths are... But I will stop ranting now. ;)

 

Warmly, Lori D.

 

:iagree: especially with the bolded. My son, also adopted overseas, has been speaking English for 4.5 years and is still playing 'catch up' on his language skills. It will be that way for some time. Also, how a child is raised during those first couple of years really does affect their language abilities. Since we don't know the background of our children, all we can do is work with what we've got in the present. :)

 

My suggestion would be to back off on the LA by going back a notch with the workbooks. And I also agree that you should have his eyesight and hearing checked, as well as talk to the doctor about possible learning disabilities. Glasses helped my ds tremendously. And when you have his eyes checked, make sure the check to see if he is tracking properly while reading.

 

I hope you get some answers soon! You are doing the best thing for him by hs'ing him. He can go at his pace, which is what every child should be able to do, imo. :grouphug:

[Guest]

I would have him evaluated by a developmental pedi.. That is way more more than a speech delay/expression problem. I would also look into an occupational therapy eval..

 

Reality wise, I would stop FLL/WWE. he is not getting a thing from it. I would consider Winston Grammar or wait a few years altogether. Grammar is such an abstract concept that waiting until 5th/6th is not going to be a big deal.

 

I would focus on the handwriting, reading, and spelling for now. Apples and Pears and Dancing Bears were wonderful for mine for all 3 areas. Go with the first set of reading books with the letter blocks. They also have some wonderful FREE handwriting downloads that got my younger boys forming letters correctly fast. We did it as a game with saying the letter sound then finding that letter to trace.

 

Try to remember it is not a case of ahead or behind as long as he is making some progress for him no matter what his age may be. It may be your best laid WTM plans are not the path this one needs or can take.

Edited October 7, 2011 by Guest

[Haiku]

I just wanted to follow up. I got Apples and Pears and Fast Track (Dancing Bears). The first few weeks ds balked and had a bad attitude. He didn't want to do "baby school" (don't know where he got that, as all I said was, "I ordered some new spelling and reading stuff for you."). Now, however, he has grown to enjoy them, and the progress I am seeing is tremendous! His handwriting is legible! He sounds words out correctly as he spells them! (Easy words, no doubt, but he's at least gotten the idea of sounding out as he writes.) His reading is becoming more fluent because he is learning to recognize morphemes and not just phonemes. I'm really happy with these programs! With Apples and Pears, I keep thinking, "This makes so much sense! Why didn't I teach him like this to begin with?"

 

Because I was too phobic to give up grammar, I got Growing With Grammar. Even though it has a lot of negative reviews, I wanted something we could keep plowing away at that wouldn't be too hard for him.

 

I wasted my money. He thinks it's boring and isn't retaining anything. I think it's simplistic and promotes regurgitation rather than thinking about concepts. I finally dumped it and started up with Practical Lessons in the Use of English, by Mary Hyde (who wrote English for the Thoughtful Child). It's free from Google Books. We both like this. I feel like it's meeting ds's needs for mechanics instruction as well as getting in some grammar.

 

Thanks to Dawn for suggesting Apples and Bears! It's been just the thing we needed!

 

Tara

[3peasinapod]

I just wanted to follow up. I got Apples and Pears and Fast Track (Dancing Bears). The first few weeks ds balked and had a bad attitude. He didn't want to do "baby school" (don't know where he got that, as all I said was, "I ordered some new spelling and reading stuff for you."). Now, however, he has grown to enjoy them, and the progress I am seeing is tremendous! His handwriting is legible! He sounds words out correctly as he spells them! (Easy words, no doubt, but he's at least gotten the idea of sounding out as he writes.) His reading is becoming more fluent because he is learning to recognize morphemes and not just phonemes. I'm really happy with these programs! With Apples and Pears, I keep thinking, "This makes so much sense! Why didn't I teach him like this to begin with?"

 

Because I was too phobic to give up grammar, I got Growing With Grammar. Even though it has a lot of negative reviews, I wanted something we could keep plowing away at that wouldn't be too hard for him.

 

I wasted my money. He thinks it's boring and isn't retaining anything. I think it's simplistic and promotes regurgitation rather than thinking about concepts. I finally dumped it and started up with Practical Lessons in the Use of English, by Mary Hyde (who wrote English for the Thoughtful Child). It's free from Google Books. We both like this. I feel like it's meeting ds's needs for mechanics instruction as well as getting in some grammar.

 

Thanks to Dawn for suggesting Apples and Bears! It's been just the thing we needed!

 

Tara

 

I read this months ago and wondered how he was doing! Thanks so much for updating. It's very encouraging, and I'm so happy for you and for him! :001_smile:

[Lori D.]

:hurray:

 

So glad to hear you've found what works! :)

[TXMary2]

nm- I see you were updating.

[MeganW]

Thanks, I have considered that. The thing that most worries me is that, as my son was adopted from overseas and his background is basically unknown, his age is approximated. In reality he could be 10 or nearing 10. If that is the case, he is WAY behind. I treat him like an 8 year old, and he definitely functions as the (annoying) little brother ;) , but in reality he could be older than our 9 year old. I don't want to shortchange him by being either too easygoing with his lessons ("He is only 8, after all.") or too hard on him ("If he's really 10, he needs to be further along than he is!")

 

 

Tara

 

I know this is old, but this paragraph really struck a cord. I have triplets who were born several months prematurely. Everyone said developmentally they should catch up by age 2, but they just didn't. I spent years pushing and working and stressing, trying to catch them up. Finally I just gave up, and decided to hold them back a year, and work with them at the level they are. Best decision EVER! They are SO much happier, and I am SOOOOO much happier!

 

It doesn't matter how old your child is in reality. Really, it doesn't. It doesn't matter if he is actually 12! It doesn't matter if he is ahead or behind. All that matters is finding out where he is, and moving him along at a pace that is challenging but do-able. If he can't do FLL3, you need to either go back a level or two, or go to something else. Even if you had to go back to the very beginning of the series, it's the right thing to do if you are meeting the child at his level. There is no sense in continuing a program that he isn't getting anything out of b/c it is way above his head.

 

It is SO HARD to admit that your child just may never be at the same level as his peers. Once you do it, and focus instead on meeting him where he is and working at his pace rather than focusing on "catching up", life gets a lot better! Take the plunge! My assumption is that we will get to the same place everybody else does, we will just be a year or two late. That's OK! :)

[WishboneDawn]

 

Thanks to Dawn for suggesting Apples and Bears! It's been just the thing we needed!

 

Tara

 

Yay! You're welcome. :D Its been close to a miracle for us as well. My son went through 3 or 4 programs and nothing was working but now he's reading, really reading, decoding new words and everything, and his handwriting has improved dramatically. As far as I'm concerned A&P and DB should be the first stop for anyone with a kid who's having a hard time learning to read.

 

I think I'll look into the grammar you're using. That has been a bit of a problem for us so far.

[Halcyon]

sorry!! mispost!

Edited December 8, 2011 by Halcyon

[lewelma]

My son had speech issues, and until his speech cleared up (2 years of therapy) we could not attack his spelling. But at age 9 we started using SWR, Spelling to Write and Read, which is the most technical of the programs out there with lots of rules which clarify English spelling. Best program ever for those who need it.

 

I agree with PP about going at his speed, not his age. I taught a boy once who was 12 and could not count. He never understood what was going on in class, and had obviously be graduated up a level year after year. When I got him, we put him into a booklet for first graders. In one year he learned to count, add, subtract, multiply, divide, and calculate with fractions and decimals. He just needed to start at the level he was at.

 

Ruth in NZ

[stripe]

I finally dumped it and started up with Practical Lessons in the Use of English, by Mary Hyde (who wrote English for the Thoughtful Child). It's free from Google Books. We both like this. I feel like it's meeting ds's needs for mechanics instruction as well as getting in some grammar.

 

Glad you found something that works. I bought English for the Thoughtful Child a looong time ago. Anyway I compared it to her Practical Lessons.... And it's the same book, but was reworked by whoever did it, changing a few things (very few, like dates) and changing the cursive handwriting examples to a worksheet style, with regular type font. Contentwise, the Google Books is totally acceptable. I would only recommend the newer one if you wanted to hand the kid the book and the cursive was an obstacle. (I retype the sentences on a separate sheet I worked out in Startwrite anyway with space for the child's handwriting.)