Not entirely sure if we are ready for AoPS

[joannqn]

I asked DS what his favorite subject is in school so far this year. He said, "All of them," but when pressed he indicated, "Grammar, no vocabulary!" He really likes Caesar's English 1 and 2. His enjoyment of grammar and vocabulary makes sense because they are the analytical side of language arts, especially the way MCT teaches it, and he really loves running into his vocabulary words in books he reads.

 

Anyway, his favorite subject has always been math up until this year. I asked him about it, and he said AoPS is too hard. He has said he likes it and has asked to continue the series rather than go back to MUS. But it really is too hard at times. We've run into questions that we just didn't understand, and today we had one that required us to know geometry that we haven't studied yet. I talked him through the problem using the solutions manual, and I could follow some of it, but other parts I had to just rely on the manual. So far, we've only run into 2 impossible questions; most of the others we can either figure out or at least understand where the answer came from.

 

They recommend Intro to Counting and Probability after Algebra so that's what we went with. I'm also happy that we're using the only book with videos, because they really help with understanding. But we're only on chapter 2, and I wonder how much more we'll run into that requires knowledge above algebra.

 

Would you just keep plugging away at it?

[lewelma]

"They recommend Intro to Counting and Probability after Algebra so that's what we went with....But we're only on chapter 2, and I wonder how much more we'll run into that requires knowledge above algebra."

 

I'm not clear. Have you already done Algebra with MUS when your ds was 10, and now you are doing Intro to Counting with AoPS? I can't really help without knowing what program your ds has completed in the past. Also, does he like discovery math? or is he more of a "tell me what to do and I will do it" type. Finally, I don't know the Probability book. Does it have challenge problems? And if so, are these the problems that stump him, or is he struggling with the general review problems?

 

AoPS is fabulous but does require a firm foundation and certain style of learning to be effective.

 

Ruth in NZ

[8filltheheart]

I asked DS what his favorite subject is in school so far this year. He said, "All of them," but when pressed he indicated, "Grammar, no vocabulary!" He really likes Caesar's English 1 and 2. His enjoyment of grammar and vocabulary makes sense because they are the analytical side of language arts, especially the way MCT teaches it, and he really loves running into his vocabulary words in books he reads.

 

Anyway, his favorite subject has always been math up until this year. I asked him about it, and he said AoPS is too hard. He has said he likes it and has asked to continue the series rather than go back to MUS. But it really is too hard at times. We've run into questions that we just didn't understand, and today we had one that required us to know geometry that we haven't studied yet. I talked him through the problem using the solutions manual, and I could follow some of it, but other parts I had to just rely on the manual. So far, we've only run into 2 impossible questions; most of the others we can either figure out or at least understand where the answer came from.

 

They recommend Intro to Counting and Probability after Algebra so that's what we went with. I'm also happy that we're using the only book with videos, because they really help with understanding. But we're only on chapter 2, and I wonder how much more we'll run into that requires knowledge above algebra.

 

Would you just keep plugging away at it?

 

I'm pretty sure that I remember your child's background is MUS alg. Our personal experience is that MUS's alg and geo are the equivalent pre-alg and pre-geo. MUS's alg is not even a direct equivalent of Foerster's first 5 chpts (out of 14). MUS does not cover the quadratic formula which is pretty standard alg1. It is also mostly simple repetitive plug and chug type problems that do not require unique application of material.

 

I suspect that C&P feels too hard b/c it is too far of a leap. You might want to consider backing up and repeating algebra. A strong math student is really sold short w/MUS as their foundation when it comes to alg up.

 

You might want to search Sue in St. Pete's posts and read her opinion. Sue has a degree in math and used MUS's elementary series. She realized after using MUS's alg that her experience did mirror mine......that it was not the equivalent of a solid alg program and that she needed her ds to repeat alg 1.

 

I would recommend either using AoPS alg 1 book or using a book like Foerster's before you switch over to AoPS.

Edited September 15, 2011 by 8FillTheHeart

[jennynd]

did u do their post test for algebra to see if he is able to complete it?

[catz]

I'd just take a day and teach the geo concept. What was it? Looking through chapter 2, I see Pythagorean theorem is needed, but that's pre-Alg. With all due respect to other poster's opinoins, Ds's Alg I course thru public school did not cover the quadratic formula (the push for Algebra for all has moved that unit into Alg II), nor did he need it for Intro to Counting. If he did need it for one or two problems, I would have just told him to save that one for later as I did for the 'generalize to formula' concept which was new to him at the level in this course .

 

FWIW my son took the course as he was finishing Alg I. There was no geo concept that wasn't already presented in his Pre_Algebra or below courses.

 

Be sure and have your son use the AoPS boards; this approach to math is meant to provoke discussion and thinking among the students. Problems will never be as quick as exercises. He shouldn't feel like he is 'plugging away', he should feel that he has his teeth in an intersting problem and is chewing on it -- however if he hasn't had that experience in the past, it may take a bit to find a comfort zone. You might consider having him take the online class, especially if your school is willing to pay for it. That way he has an experienced teacher to consult as well as classmates.

 

I have not looked at AoPS Counting and Probability. But if they're assuming completion of AoPS algebra, that's more like algebra 1 and half of algebra 2 compared to most curriculum. I would check out the pre/post tests on the AoPS site and if you are interested in working with AoPS for the long term it might be worth it to look into getting into AoPS algebra. He's still young. We did algebra with NEM last year and that was rigorous, but this is a whole other level of conceptual presentation we're seeing this year going to AoPS algebra and it's been a good thing. We're crawling through it and it might take a while, but that's ok.

 

I know nothing about MUS so I cannot comment on that. Good luck!

[8filltheheart]

Since you're quoting me,let me clarify that not completing the quadratic unit or even alg I is not a show stopper nor does it make the course even slightly difficult in my son's opinion. At worst, you lose a day to teach the unknown concept. For us, we had to take three extra days since ds's algebra class at school hadn't reached probabilty and his prealgebra class didn't teach the foundational concepts of permutation or combination.We added 15 minutes to extend the distance formula to 3D, 5 min to explain series notation, and over the course of a few days discussed generalizing to a formula -all of which would be taught in alg II, but why wait when it costs less than a few hours of discussion.

 

The experience needed before taking this class is problem solving. If one is coming from an Algebra or preAlgebra situation where one only has exercises and never does problems, this class would be difficult. Parts are also difficult if visualization skills are poor.

 

jmho from derived from looking over ds's shoulder as he took the Intro to Probability & Counting course last spring on line and discussing the experience with him.

 

Since I have used MUS's alg program, my honest assessment is that her ds is probably not ready to jump into C&P. MUS has very little problem-solving material. The application problems are incredibly weak. The alg program is really very much more like pre-alg. The Pythagorean Theorem was covered in the geometry portion of the text we used, so I am not sure whether or not the OP would have actually covered it or not. (the alg and geo have now been separated into 2 separate texts whereas when I started using the program over a decade ago, they were combined into 1)

 

I just asked my ds who has done both (MUS and C&P) what he thought and his response was that the strategies required in C&P are completely different. He can understand why a child that went from MUS alg nto it would have problems.

 

FWIW, the OP has talked about going from this into AoPS geo program which by all rights is one of their most difficult texts. I really think that repeating alg this yr w/a stronger text would be beneficial to her child.

[MBM]

Joann, has your son done AoPS's Algebra 1 course yet? My son had completed NEM algebra before we discovered AoPS. He could have begun with something beyond AoPS Algebra 1, but we made him begin there so that he'd solidify concepts and get accustomed to AoPS. It was still not easy for him.

 

The first year will likely be difficult at times. I'd suggest you just go slowly. Tell your son it's not at all unusual for kids to struggle with AoPS initially. I'd guess that it's probably the norm. You don't want him to get too discouraged, so maybe it will help to let him know that others have struggled with it, too.

 

My son's first online class with AoPS was Intro to Geometry. We afterschool, and besides his school work, the class was just too fast and too much at the time. Classes move quickly, so for a struggling student who's new to AoPS, it might be better to just work through the texts. If you get stuck, ask for help at the forums. The instructors hang out there, too, and you might be lucky to get some help from them, but if not, there are plenty there who can and will help.

[joannqn]

C&P is our first AoPS text. I took the suggestions here and had a talk with him this morning. Given different options, he wants to continue with C&P. We decided our focus will be more discussing the problems together even if we have to consult the solutions manual rather than worrying about whether he can do them on his own. We'll use this time to acclimate us to AoPS and problem solving. At the same time, we'll spend some of our school day learning Latex so we can participate on the forums in the future.

 

Thanks, everyone, for your suggestions and help.

[melmichigan]

If you are going to continue to move forward in AoPS I wonder if your DS would benefit from having the AoPS Algebra text to refer to, and to consider working with Alcumus? I would also think about having your child take the pre and post tests for the AoPS Algebra to see what weaknesses you might be dealing with. To assume the same level of knowledge and understanding following the conclusion MUS Algebra and the conclusion of AoPS Algebra just isn't conceivable to me. How that difference would impact Counting and Probability is different question.

[joannqn]

C&P doesn't require completion of AoPS Algebra. In fact, the pretest for C&P is rather simple, and DS can do all of the problems on it.

[joannqn]

I think the ability to generalize concepts from one problem to another is our biggest problem. Watching the videos makes that obvious. When Richard sets up a problem on the video, I have no idea where to start. But then as he solves the problem, it's so simple. I always feel, "Well, duh." Then when I see another problem in the set, I'm back to loss because it isn't exactly the same set up.

 

Learning to generalize the concepts is what we'll need to figure out and learn.

[Crimson Wife]

I think the ability to generalize concepts from one problem to another is our biggest problem. Watching the videos makes that obvious. When Richard sets up a problem on the video, I have no idea where to start. But then as he solves the problem, it's so simple. I always feel, "Well, duh."

 

I feel this way when DH explains how to do a problem in Singapore IP or CWP that has stumped both DD and me. It seems so obvious after the fact :tongue_smilie:

[8filltheheart]

I think the ability to generalize concepts from one problem to another is our biggest problem. Watching the videos makes that obvious. When Richard sets up a problem on the video, I have no idea where to start. But then as he solves the problem, it's so simple. I always feel, "Well, duh." Then when I see another problem in the set, I'm back to loss because it isn't exactly the same set up.

 

Learning to generalize the concepts is what we'll need to figure out and learn.

 

This post is actually the point I have been trying to make. When I say that MUS's problems are "plug and chug," it means that the problems are all repetitious and do not require any unique application/understanding....exactly what you are describing. While the program is great for helping young kids learn simple algebraic concepts, it does not equate to a solid algebra foundation for upper high school math.

[melmichigan]

C&P doesn't require completion of AoPS Algebra. In fact, the pretest for C&P is rather simple, and DS can do all of the problems on it.

 

This is the post test I was referring to.

[lewelma]

You have gotten a lot of good responses while I have been asleep! New Zealand is currently 16 hours off the USA.

 

I would only add that AoPS recommends that if you have to look at the solutions manual, make a note of that problem, and go back and work it 2 weeks later to make sure you really understand. I have found this technique very effective to slowly teaching problem solving skills. Kind of like having a crutch.

 

I do think your goal at this point, with a student as young and skilled as yours, is to get her problem solving skills up. Since your child has taken algebra, you could also have her work 2 difficult/unusual word probems and 2 challenge problems from every chapter in the AoPS Intro Algebra book. If this is too difficult, you may want to consider doing the whole book.

 

Ruth in NZ

[joannqn]

This is the post test I was referring to.

 

I don't understand how the post-test for AoPS Algebra 1 is necessary or related to C&P when C&P doesn't indicate it is required. The suggestion to do C&P after algebra is for kids coming into AoPS from a traditional school with traditional curricula. The idea was specifically stated as "take a break from algebra" and do C&P and/or NT before tackling AoPS Algebra.

 

In fact, I contacted them directly and asked for their suggestion for my son. They said to complete algebra in your curricula first before doing AoPS due to his age. He's only 9, and the curricula is designed for kids at least two years older than he.

 

He can do all of the problems on the C&P pretest. According to the website, that's all that is needed to determine readiness. We are planning on doing AoPS Algebra later.

 

I would only add that AoPS recommends that if you have to look at the solutions manual, make a note of that problem, and go back and work it 2 weeks later to make sure you really understand. I have found this technique very effective to slowly teaching problem solving skills. Kind of like having a crutch.

 

I do think your goal at this point, with a student as young and skilled as yours, is to get her problem solving skills up. Since your child has taken algebra, you could also have her work 2 difficult/unusual word probems and 2 challenge problems from every chapter in the AoPS Intro Algebra book. If this is too difficult, you may want to consider doing the whole book.

 

Ruth in NZ

 

I hadn't seen the suggestion to go back and rework problems. We will definitely do that.

 

It's my intention to do the entire Algebra book later. At the time I chose our path, the website said that if you've taken Algebra in school to take a break from it and do C&P or NT and then do AoPS Algebra. That's what we're doing. I just didn't expect the problem solving, generalizing concepts across problem types, to be such a learning curve.

[lewelma]

My AoPS book says:

 

"If you have to look at the solution in order to solve a problem, make sure that you make a note of that problem. Come back to it in a week or two to make sure that you are able to solve it on your own, without resorting to the solution."

 

I got it almost word for word!

 

Ruth

[joannqn]

Thanks! I might have read that at some point, but it's helpful to know now. I'll definitely go back through those problems one way or another.

 

We watched the video for Complimentary Counting Part 2 today. He's a funny guy. I love both how he set up the problem and how he ended it.

[StephanieZ]

Did he do AoPS Algebra?

 

My kids did Alegebra with Thinkwell, then have each tried AoPS C&P. When I did it with my older (then maybe 12), *I* found it a huge amount of work to learn the material! (And, I am a mathy person. I tutored through Calc while in high school and college!) Anyway, she couldn't do it solo, and I was too overwhelmed to do it all with her, so I dropped it after 4 chapters. I felt bad b/c she totally was learning from it and I thought it was a super thing, and I still feel like I cheated her.

 

Anyway, so this year when ds12 was ready for it, I have signed him up for the C&P class that starts in a couple weeks. We've already started the book and the assigned Alcumus so that 1) he'll have a jump start on the fast-paced course and 2) he won't have so much math work to do while we are on vacation for 3 weeks in October during the course. So far, he's really enjoying it, and especially enjoying the Alcumus. I think this will go much better. He's super social and competitive, so I think the community environment will be great for him. It is pricey, but I figure it is worth it.

 

(I'm thinking of having dd do the AoPS PreCalc course since she'll technically be "ready" for Calc next year via other curricula, so AoPS PreCalc should be relatively easy for her technically, but would expand her problem solving creativity, and then make her super ready for Calc, likely then AoPS Calc. I really hate having her miss the AoPS approach to learning math. It seems amazingly valuable to me. It'll just be her 10th grade year next year, so we've got plenty of time to get some good out of it.)

 

So, anyway, if your son hasn't done AoPS Algebra, I'd consider doing that instead of C&P since I am *sure* AoPS will offer lots of new ideas on top of whatever other Algebra a child has had. That might introduce him gently to the AoPS style of learning (which requires a comfort level with being confused & just figuring stuff out & NOT ALWAYS GETTING IT!)

 

And, I'd consider investing in an AoPS online class if possible, as that seems to be what it takes for me for my dc to get the most out of it since I am not willing/able to commit the time to be a co-learner right now.

 

HTH, and I hope others with more AoPS experience chime in!

[8filltheheart]

 

(I'm thinking of having dd do the AoPS PreCalc course since she'll technically be "ready" for Calc next year via other curricula, so AoPS PreCalc should be relatively easy for her technically, but would expand her problem solving creativity, and then make her super ready for Calc, likely then AoPS Calc. I really hate having her miss the AoPS approach to learning math. It seems amazingly valuable to me. It'll just be her 10th grade year next year, so we've got plenty of time to get some good out of it.)

 

 

 

And, I'd consider investing in an AoPS online class if possible, as that seems to be what it takes for me for my dc to get the most out of it since I am not willing/able to commit the time to be a co-learner right now.

 

HTH, and I hope others with more AoPS experience chime in!

 

Before you decide which AoPS course to put your dd in, I highly recommend having her take the post-tests available on their website. Our ds went from Foerster's alg 2/trig course into AoPS alg 3 (on their website as intermediate alg) and followed it w/their pre-cal. The first part of the alg 3 course was review, but the majority was new material. He said the first chpt in the pre-cal book would have killed him if he hadn't taken their alg 3 course. (For him, it was review.) He took the alg 3 course online and it was a fabulous experience. We opted for him to take the pre-cal course over the entire yr since his workload didn't allow for enough time for the online course (b/c it is so much material in such a sort amt of time.)

 

We just opted to drop PAH's AP cal BC course he was taking and he is now self-studying using AoPS cal alongside Calculus for the Forgetful and a couple of prep books. The PAH class was definitely drill oriented and not challenging in the way ds enjoys math. I guess only time will tell whether or not this is the right decision. :tongue_smilie: (as far as AP scores go. It is definitely the right decision for how he learns and loves math. ;) )

[snowbeltmom]

We just opted to drop PAH's AP cal BC course he was taking and he is now self-studying using AoPS cal alongside Calculus for the Forgetful and a couple of prep books. The PAH class was definitely drill oriented and not challenging in the way ds enjoys math. I guess only time will tell whether or not this is the right decision. :tongue_smilie: (as far as AP scores go. It is definitely the right decision for how he learns and loves math. ;) )

Thank you for this post. I read somewhere on the AoPS site that the AoPS calculus class is not aligned with the AP exam. I had planned on my son taking AoPS calc (next year) and supplementing with test prep books to prepare for the AP exam. Good luck, and please keep us posted on how things work out.:bigear:

[joannqn]

...

 

I've never heard of permutations or combinations before AoPS. It was never covered in my high school math (through Calculus) or what I've done with DS.

 

I did look at the coolmath site. The stuff there is pretty basic, though I wouldn't have known that you couldn't start a phone number with 0, 1, or 911 in a math problem. I would have counted numbers that started with them. It seems obvious once it is pointed out, but then it also said you can't start a number with 411 and 555 but they chose to include those because "let's not get ridiculous, this is just a math problem." So how are we suppose to know what to count and what not to count when the original problem doesn't state which rules apply?

[8filltheheart]

Thank you for this post. I read somewhere on the AoPS site that the AoPS calculus class is not aligned with the AP exam. I had planned on my son taking AoPS calc (next year) and supplementing with test prep books to prepare for the AP exam. Good luck, and please keep us posted on how things work out.:bigear:

 

I read the same thing which is why I originally signed him up for PAH. I had a chat w/my favorite mathematician and she described the path that her dd took self-studying. Ds called to his math mentor. The conclusion was that self-studying would be a better fit for him and his skills.

 

FWIW, PAH is excellent prep for kids that need standard classroom teaching w/lots and lots of practice. However, the amt of time it was taking vs. the actual return for him did not match. He could really have used the time to dig deeper and be more challenged vs. 40 of the same type of problem.

[joannqn]

I looked through the Table of Contents, samples, pre/post tests for the other AoPS books and have decided to go back and do their prealgebra and algebra books first before returning to counting and probability. He can pass the pretest for counting and probability, but there's just too much of a learning curve for the problem solving portion and the topics we haven't covered before now.

 

We expect most of prealgebra to be review but there are a few chapters that are either completely new to us or are taught at a greater difficulty level. I suspect we'll be able to fly through it pretty quickly due to all of the review.

 

Thanks for your help!

[8filltheheart]

I think you'll be really happy with that decision.

[melmichigan]

I think you'll be really happy with that decision.

 

:iagree:We started over with Prealgebra with AoPS and are not regretting the decision, I'd rather be really sure my DD is ready then to have her struggle.

[StephanieZ]

Before you decide which AoPS course to put your dd in, I highly recommend having her take the post-tests available on their website. Our ds went from Foerster's alg 2/trig course into AoPS alg 3 (on their website as intermediate alg) and followed it w/their pre-cal. The first part of the alg 3 course was review, but the majority was new material. He said the first chpt in the pre-cal book would have killed him if he hadn't taken their alg 3 course. (For him, it was review.) He took the alg 3 course online and it was a fabulous experience. We opted for him to take the pre-cal course over the entire yr since his workload didn't allow for enough time for the online course (b/c it is so much material in such a sort amt of time.)

 

We just opted to drop PAH's AP cal BC course he was taking and he is now self-studying using AoPS cal alongside Calculus for the Forgetful and a couple of prep books. The PAH class was definitely drill oriented and not challenging in the way ds enjoys math. I guess only time will tell whether or not this is the right decision. :tongue_smilie: (as far as AP scores go. It is definitely the right decision for how he learns and loves math. ;) )

 

Thanks so much for this input! I will be sure to evaluate Alg 3 vs PreCalc. THANKS!