To new hsers-sharing my biggest mistake over the last 10 years.

[Angie in VA]

And just to throw another wrench into it, there are some people who believe that formal math before the age of 10 years is a waste of time, if not detrimental.

 

http://www.triviumpursuit.com/articles/research_on_teaching_math.php

 

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/freedom-learn/201003/when-less-is-more-the-case-teaching-less-math-in-schools

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128114

 

http://sursumcorda.salemsattic.com/post/1/1060

 

Thank you, Sahamamama! I was on my tablet last night and was too lazy to link any articles. I now see that you did. Great!

 

Adding one more: The Story of an Experiment

[Momto3indians]

We also switched on math way too much and it caused them to be behind by a year. We ended up sticking with Saxon and for highschool moving onto Teaching Textbooks....but those early years were one math curriculum after the other until I finally settled on Saxon. Yet, not to beat ourselves up too much, we are all doing our best! And now that I can look back on all those years of homeschooling and all those mistakes...it was a far better education then having marched off my kids to the bus to take them to conventional school, any day!!!

[Spy Car]

We started out w/ a math program in K and then dropped *formal* math until my first born was 10. We drilled math facts and then I sat her down in front of a math book and she did great.

 

With my 2nd born, we just drilled math facts and sat him in front of a math book when he turned 10. So far, so good.

 

I have few regrets now (11 years in) but a big one is not listening to a veteran homeschooler who told me I didn't need curriculum for my dd who was in K. Nope. Wouldn't listen. Thought I needed a lot of stuff.

 

Drilling math facts does not a math education make. This is a seriously bad approach.

 

Bill

[Momling]

I just wanted to say that my dd was doing very, very well in math in her grade school years. She advanced to Singapore 4A by the end of 2nd grade. She LOVED math, until I switched to MUS-stupidly taking her back to the beginning to avoid...Gaps! She couldn't stand the dvd instruction and strongly disliked the lack of variety with her lessons. Even still, she progressed quickly through the levels of MUS, doing very well-until one day she just sobbed and said she was so bored! So...I switched her to CLE. From there it gets complicated as she went into PS for family-crisis reasons. Once in school, she was put in the "gifted" math classes, getting all As and bringing work home only a couple of times.

 

All of that to say, it is MY fault she is where she is. Only in the last 2 yrs has her attitude toward math been negative. And really, I can't blame her!

 

That's all...

 

So your switching was a case of "fixing what wasn't broken"? I think most people who switch curriculum are switching because the program is *not* working... because their kids struggle with understanding it or cry everytime they pull out that book, or because the parents don't understand how to teach it or because the book is tedious or pointless or poorly written or too religious or too secular.

 

I still wouldn't beat yourself up over it :001_smile:. Math at middle and high school is a different beast from the math we do at elementary. Plus, your 9th grader has a different set of priorities and abilities and hormones than she had at 2nd grade. I do wish that I could have control over my daughters' opinions of academic subjects, but it doesn't seem to be a power I have. We, as parents, just do the best we can and there's no reason to feel guilty when our kids don't perform as highly as we want them to on a test or when they tell us that they don't like doing history or math or Latin or whatever.

[Veritaserum]

I have learned this painful lesson as well and dd11 is paying the price. :( The good news is that I know ALL of my other kids will use either Math Mammoth or CLE. I'm done with looking at any other programs. These two work for me and I'll make one or the other work for my dds. :)

[Riverland]

If a child had poor retention of history, nobody would suggest it was because they had not used the same textbook series from k-9th grade.

 

Who knows? Your daughter might dislike math even more and have performed even worse on the test if you *had* stuck with the same series straight through.

 

:iagree:

 

 

 

I don't think one can assert that kids who switch math programs will get behind. In some cases, maybe. In others, not. Depends on the kid, depends on the curriculum.

[onaclairadeluna]

And just to throw another wrench into it, there are some people who believe that formal math before the age of 10 years is a waste of time, if not detrimental.

 

Of course some people are barking-mad :D

 

 

I have a slightly different take on this, I think that there is something to be said for putting the math book away and playing around with things until the child is ready for the next concept. OK maybe not eliminating formal math entirely but I think that "formal math" should be subservient to "conversational math" until a child is really ready (which really depends on the kid).

 

Most parents know enough math that we can do it on the fly up till at least 3rd or 4th grade. I have had more elementary math success taking walks with my son when he was little and gardening with my daughter.

 

For example, I am watering the garden with my first grader. "There are fifteen kittens at a party some of them like ice cream and some like cake" How many kittens do you think like ice cream. She draws circles in the mud. And puts 8 rocks in the first circle, "8". And another circle with 7 rocks for the kittens who like cake.

 

Or on a walk "I have 78 cents in my pocket. What coins do I have?" "Do you have a quarter?" "no" etc.

 

Doing this kind of thing with my kids was almost always way more valuable than pages in a math book. The only thing the math elementary math books really help me with are making sure that my kids write the numbers properly and once and awhile they help me make sure I don't leave anything out. (volume etc.)

 

OK this isn't exactly true of MEP, Beast and CWP, there were things in those books that I couldn't have come up with...(oh yeah and CMSP too). But these are special quirky curricula. In general with elementary math the curriculum doesn't teach the kids, we do. It's like if you get a Tuba and try to teach your child Tuba from a Tuba book and it isn't working so you get a different Tuba book. I mean it could be the book, but probably it isn't.

 

90% of elementary math should be something that we do on a very intuitive level. Something we should be conversant in. So I agree that a formal curriculum can be detrimental if you rely on that for most of your child's math education. If you leave out the more important part, talking about little puzzles and thinking about numbers in interesting ways. It's like trying to teach your kids to write but never having a conversation with them.

 

I don't think this is what those articles are talking about. But I think if you compare doing no math to teaching math badly, there might be something to be said for delaying instruction. Still I think delayed math instruction is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

 

Also if you put the book down for a few weeks or a month, it can save you money since then you don't need to buy a new curriculum unless you are one of those weird math junkies who absolutely need to see the new shiny math curriculum. (OK I confess):tongue_smilie:

[Spy Car]

I have a slightly different take on this, I think that there is something to be said for putting the math book away and playing around with things until the child is ready for the next concept. OK maybe not eliminating formal math entirely but I think that "formal math" should be subservient to "conversational math" until a child is really ready (which really depends on the kid).

 

Most parents know enough math that we can do it on the fly up till at least 3rd or 4th grade. I have had more elementary math success taking walks with my son when he was little and gardening with my daughter.

 

For example, I am watering the garden with my first grader. "There are fifteen kittens at a party some of them like ice cream and some like cake" How many kittens do you think like ice cream. She draws circles in the mud. And puts 8 rocks in the first circle, "8". And another circle with 7 rocks for the kittens who like cake.

 

Or on a walk "I have 78 cents in my pocket. What coins do I have?" "Do you have a quarter?" "no" etc.

 

Doing this kind of thing with my kids was almost always way more valuable than pages in a math book. The only thing the math elementary math books really help me with are making sure that my kids write the numbers properly and once and awhile they help me make sure I don't leave anything out. (volume etc.)

 

OK this isn't exactly true of MEP, Beast and CWP, there were things in those books that I couldn't have come up with...(oh yeah and CMSP too). But these are special quirky curricula. In general with elementary math the curriculum doesn't teach the kids, we do. It's like if you get a Tuba and try to teach your child Tuba from a Tuba book and it isn't working so you get a different Tuba book. I mean it could be the book, but probably it isn't.

 

90% of elementary math should be something that we do on a very intuitive level. Something we should be conversant in. So I agree that a formal curriculum can be detrimental if you rely on that for most of your child's math education. If you leave out the more important part, talking about little puzzles and thinking about numbers in interesting ways. It's like trying to teach your kids to write but never having a conversation with them.

 

I don't think this is what those articles are talking about. But I think if you compare doing no math to teaching math badly, there might be something to be said for delaying instruction. Still I think delayed math instruction is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

 

Also if you put the book down for a few weeks or a month, it can save you money since then you don't need to buy a new curriculum unless you are one of those weird math junkies who absolutely need to see the new shiny math curriculum. (OK I confess):tongue_smilie:

 

But teaching math badly is not the only alternative. When people use "formal math" as a synonym for developmentally inappropriate math instruction I suppose it may seem that way, but we both know this is not the case across the board.

 

There are "formal" math programs including Miquon, MEP, RightStart, and CSMP that encourage the sort of developmentally appropriate math instruction you are talking about. I have not used Kitchen Table Math form AoPS, but I believe it is another resource in the same vein.

 

In agree that the sort of discussions you have with your child are vital. As are discovery, hands on demonstration, and activities, games and real world appellations. I'm all about that.

 

But there are "formal" math programs that include these elements as part of the mix, and that help educate parents on how to teach math in interesting ways.

 

I agree with you that delayed math instruction is "throwing the baby out with the bath-water" and also agree that young children need developmentally appropriate ways to learn. That is very different than "delay."

 

Bill

[lcelmer]

It isn't just math. This rings for not sticking with reading and spelling too.

:iagree:

 

Grammar too.... :glare:

 

As to the relaxed, as they are ready method, don't do this if you might ever want to do a year of private school.

 

Switching method/curriculum is sometimes necessary, but don't make it a habit!

[FO4UR]

And just to throw another wrench into it, there are some people who believe that formal math before the age of 10 years is a waste of time, if not detrimental.

 

http://www.triviumpursuit.com/articles/research_on_teaching_math.php

 

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/freedom-learn/201003/when-less-is-more-the-case-teaching-less-math-in-schools

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128114

 

http://sursumcorda.salemsattic.com/post/1/1060

 

 

Thanks for those links...I've read some of them before. :001_smile:

 

 

Of course some people are barking-mad :D

 

That the Bluedorns give credence to the idea that children doing sums in childhood makes them vulnerable to chorea is just more piece of evidence (to add to the mountain of other reasons) that they are not people to turn to as "educational gurus."

 

Gimme a break :lol:

 

Bill

 

Bill, we've agreed on most things mathy, but I disagree with your conclusions about the Bluedorns. (I've read the other thread...and am left :001_huh: at some of your assumptions. Mainly, that the Bluedorns are advocating no early math education...that's not the case.)

 

 

Drilling math facts does not a math education make. This is a seriously bad approach.

 

Bill

 

 

*Drilling*? no. But, understanding and knowing? Yes. That makes a great foundation. In fact, if you check the scope and sequences of traditional American math to Asian math you'll see a strong emphasis on +-x/ in the early years.

 

 

All I know is what I've learned from teaching my own dc. When we stray from Miquon-style lessons (which are informal and concrete...exactly what the Bluedorns advocate imo...), we see a slow down and dislike in math. My problem is finding a good informal/concrete program post-Miquon. I *do* believe that many kids wilt under curricula-following....that's part of the reason I HS in the first place...

 

That said, I do have doubts about what we are doing here. I mean, other 8yo's are doing calculus already...:auto:

[cara]

I feel the opposite of just about everyone here. I think that changing curriculum to find one that suited us, was the best thing I could have done especially with math. Sticking with Horizons that was making us miserable or Teaching Textbooks that I wasn't sure about the upper levels would have been detrimental to us. Moving to Life of Fred and seeing it working, and how much he enjoys it, helps me appreciate it more.

 

The same can be said to all subjects. Changing curriculum, and finding something that works for our family, instead of sticking with something that makes us all miserable, is the best thing we could do.

 

To me that's the beauty of homeschooling, if it doesn't work for us, we can change it and find something that does work.

[susancollins]

Bill,

Could you recommend a good solid math program. We are currently using Abeka Math. What do you think of Abeka math? Thanks so much!

[Sahamamama]

Of course some people are barking-mad :D

 

That the Bluedorns give credence to the idea that children doing sums in childhood makes them vulnerable to chorea is just more piece of evidence (to add to the mountain of other reasons) that they are not people to turn to as "educational gurus."

 

Gimme a break :lol:

 

Bill

 

Just throwing a wrench in there, Bill. I knew you'd chime in here, if I mentioned the Bluedorns. :001_smile:

[susancollins]

Bump!

[Alicia64]

We accomplish lots with a very relaxed attitude. Oh, one more thing, you don't have to finish the book .... ever!

 

I love this message to relax. Very good to hear.

 

I don't want to start a debate, but I actually have many friends who start a curriculum and then never finish it. It's a regular theme in their lives -- I wonder if they notice? I'm really happy that we finish our curriculum. You know, only if it's good and working etc. etc.

[Angie in VA]

Drilling math facts does not a math education make. This is a seriously bad approach.

 

Bill

Wow. Just wow. Did I say drilling math facts constituted math education for my dc? *Scratching my head* I meant to say we drilled math facts for a little while before my dc started with a math textbook. Sorry that omission would cause such a jump.

 

[Hedgehogs4]

Thanks for posting this--I did some switching around last year and realized it was a mistake so we went back to what we started with. It really wasn't broken in the first place. I will keep with it for the elementary years, and will probably change when we start getting into algebra concepts, as I will need something to help me teach it.

[smilesonly]

So your switching was a case of "fixing what wasn't broken"? I think most people who switch curriculum are switching because the program is *not* working... because their kids struggle with understanding it or cry everytime they pull out that book, or because the parents don't understand how to teach it or because the book is tedious or pointless or poorly written or too religious or too secular.

 

 

Yes and no. Here is the breakdown....

 

Miquon-for K-we played with this as I was aware that I needed to really study the method to teach it. I do believe this set a nice foundation for enjoying numbers and how one can play with them and discover how they can relate. I never officially dropped it, but introduced Singapore and soon Miquon wasn't brought out.

 

Singapore-1st and 2nd grade-We both LOVED it and dd did very, very well with it. She flew through her lessons, asking to do more and more. ****I*** dropped it when she hit 4B as I was newly dxed with difficult health issues and couldn't wrap my brain around HOW to teach it-even with the HIG.

 

MUS-3rd and 4th gr.- The idea of this appealed to me and seemed like the perfect curriculum to hold MY hand in teaching her. She got 3 levels up-and started hating math. She was bored with doing the same type of problems every single day. Her enthusiasm for math was no longer there. I dropped it.

 

CLE-4th and 5th-did the placement test, she really enjoyed it and did well.

 

6th and 7th- Due to family crisis she was put into a private Christian school. Then due to circumstances we couldn't control, she was transferred to a PS. In both schools she was "ahead" in math, received all As and was never challenged. Math and science were her favorite subjects.

 

Mid-7th-She begged to return to hsing. She took the placement test for CLE and placed EXACTLY where she had left off before entering school. I ordered the CLE and, she hated it. I panicked and ordered LoF!! She flew through Fractions, Decimals and Percents. The started Algebra and hit the wall hard. Math became the dreaded subject.

 

8th-Rod & Staff at her request-she wanted a traditional math. But, she was continuing to struggle and has struggled ever since. I tried MM with her and she hated it. I gave her a placement for Saxon(what her best friend was doing!!) and she started in the Algebra 1/2. Around chapter 7 she kept doing poorly.

 

9th-She began and is working(still!!) through Lial's BCM. She hates math, feels stupid at it, is embarrassed that she isn't even to Algebra yet.

 

So, in looking at the big picture I can see where I made incredibly STUPID decisions and where life really got in the way, causing gaps and stalling her.

 

I shouldn't have dropped Singapore, MUS, CLE, or Saxon.

 

I posted this so that people can see how messy it can get when they drop a math curriculum. If I had it to do over, I would have stayed with Singapore-even if it meant that I get a tutor for MYSELF. Or I should have stayed with CLE-whether dd like it or not.

 

Yes, it's okay to change when it VERY clearly isn't working for a dc. What *I* lacked (aside from common sense!) was the ability to look at the big picture-where would such and such curriculum leave us in the Pre-Algebra stages?? Is this curriculum going to be difficult for ME to teach?? Insteas of dropping_____I should have supplemented-or just taken a break.

[wapiti]

the big picture-where would such and such curriculum leave us in the Pre-Algebra stages??Is this curriculum going to be difficult for ME to teach?? Insteas of dropping_____I should have supplemented-or just taken a break.

I think these are very valuable insights, especially about evaluating for oneself where a particular curriculum will leave you as far as prealgebra, etc. However, please don't be so hard on yourself!! Life clearly got in the way in 6th and 7th; we can't expect that our kids' lives will be perfect. You were doing your best at the time. I'd probably blame the schools more than anything else. Perhaps one could also argue that LOF wasn't working for her. Overall, the effect was a matter of lost time. Even if you had continued with Singapore through 5th, she may have ended up in the same situation.

[scrapbabe]

Ugh, I have math regrets too and my 14 year old is doing Pre-Algebra now. But what matters most is what we do from here on out. We all have regrets, make mistakes, life throws a curve ball, etc. We just have to pick up the pieces and move on.

Edited September 17, 2011 by scrapbabe