Omnibus/Douglas Wilson fact gathering?

[LisaKinVA]

I have been planning for years to use Omnibus for Jr./Sr. high... I can't say I planned to use it completely "as written," but it seems like a pretty good place to start for a time-crunched momma with lots of kiddos in different stages to at least make the attempt at a classical education.

 

I'm now having serious reservations.

[8circles]

It takes a lot to shock me. Really it does. Even when I do not like what I am hearing about a particular figure, even when the information is extremely upsetting I will take the time to go to the relevant accessible source in an attempt to ascertain the truth.

 

Because of that I took the time to email a certain person and ask some direct questions. I made it very clear that I intended to repost his response, because I wanted to give him the oppurtunity to craft a response he was comfortable with or to chose not to respond at all. Here is what I said, "Here is a link to the original thread I started. If it would not be to much trouble for you to contribute your 2cents either directly to the thread or back to me (with the understanding that I will copy it to the thread) I would really appreciate it!"

 

This morning I woke up to a scathing email. :glare: Here is my response, "Mr, *****,

I am completely shocked that you are shocked. I was very clear in my intial contact with you that that was my intent. I never mislead you. You were fully informed that I intended to share your response. I was very honest and stated up front my intentions so you could make an informed decision on how to respond. That was the point of my email. You NEVER stated not to quote you. NEVER. You are free to chose not to engage in forums, but I do. Again, I was completely upfront about my intentions.

 

Furthermore, I have no idea what you mean about "while at the same time lacking the very discretion you claim he lacks". I have no idea what you are referring to. I have never made any claims about DW and for you to accuse me is wrong!

 

Many of these people on the forums I consider friends. Yes, I will share information with them.

 

Again, I do apologize for upsetting you, but I was very clear about my intentions.

 

One final note. Do not use scripture as a weapon to attempt to control me. You have no right!

 

Regards, January."

 

Let this be another lesson to me in the controlling nature of these types of groups. Also, let it be a lesson that even if you do try to be honest, go to the source and share "true" information, you will be raked across the coals, accused, and labeled. :tongue_smilie:

 

I am done! I tried, but no more.

 

I'm so sorry. I'm shocked on your behalf. You have done nothing wrong. You have been gracious in all your posts on this topic. Good for you for standing-up to such nonsense. I don't even understand which part of Matthew 18 would apply here (I know how he thinks it applies, I just don't think it makes sense). How about verse 6?

 

This If I wasn't clear before on integrity of Veritas Press, its pretty clear now. Thank you, Bruce Etter.

[simka2]

I'm so sorry. I'm shocked on your behalf. You have done nothing wrong. You have been gracious in all your posts on this topic. Good for you for standing-up to such nonsense. I don't even understand which part of Matthew 18 would apply here (I know how he thinks it applies, I just don't think it makes sense). How about verse 6?

 

This If I wasn't clear before on integrity of Veritas Press, its pretty clear now. Thank you, Bruce Etter.

 

This is what I am really saddened by. I wanted to find out how deep the penetration of ideas had gone, but I didn't want to find out like this. :glare:

 

It is that feeling of being faced with an undeniable truth, but kinda wishing I could unface it:glare:

 

Part of me wishes he had just left it alone. His original response was fine. It reassured who it needed to, but also gave enough information for others to know if it wouldn't be a good fit.

 

Now, it isn't even about Omnibus anymore. Now, it's about VP itself.

 

I really want to thank all of you who participated in this thread, for and against. You helped direct my research. Even though I do not like how this has ended (and I really could have done without another male throwing Matt 18 at me :tongue_smilie:) I am glad to know the truth.

[Ellesmere]

Making bold "black & white" decisions based upon "associations"... that's an interesting thought.

 

Looking at someone's background, writings, legal documents, following their history and questioning their actions and motives... Do we really even do that anymore? Just seems so... selective.

 

And so... slippery.

 

 

I know we all have strong opinions here. We have enough info. available on this site to make informed decisions on various curriculum sources and providers.

 

If something does or doesn't work "for you" fine. Be gracious when you have facts to share or strong beliefs about it.

 

Things here can and do get pretty "prickly' very quickly.

 

I'm asking sincerely.

 

I do agree that it is wrong to make bold black and white accusations.

 

So, I'm asking sincerely if you could quote where that happened in this thread?

 

The thread began with a gracious, serious inquiry as to Douglas Wilson's involvement with VP.

[forty-two]

This is what I am really saddened by. I wanted to find out how deep the penetration of ideas had gone, but I didn't want to find out like this. :glare:

 

It is that feeling of being faced with an undeniable truth, but kinda wishing I could unface it:glare:

 

Part of me wishes he had just left it alone. His original response was fine. It reassured who it needed to, but also gave enough information for others to know if it wouldn't be a good fit.

 

Now, it isn't even about Omnibus anymore. Now, it's about VP itself.

 

I really want to thank all of you who participated in this thread, for and against. You helped direct my research. Even though I do not like how this has ended (and I really could have done without another male throwing Matt 18 at me :tongue_smilie:) I am glad to know the truth.

Call me optimistic, but I'm hoping he just had a really bad day - we've all had days where we really shouldn't have clicked send ;) - and will soon be apologizing for his hasty and ill-thought email.

[simka2]

Call me optimistic, but I'm hoping he just had a really bad day - we've all had days where we really shouldn't have clicked send ;) - and will soon be apologizing for his hasty and ill-thought email.

If that happens I will tell you! It would make me very happy and relieved to see that happen! :D

Edited August 7, 2011 by simka2

[Supertechmom]

.

 

Well in the email he used the timeless Matt 18. :glare:

 

Seriously!!!?? harm little kids, cut off the body part that sins (limited to hands, eyes, and feet mind ya!), the lost sheep, brothers sinning against you and witness passage, and the ungrateful servant.

 

So how do we sin against a business when we ask a question and then tell the answer given??? IN a nice and courteous way to boot.

 

GAG! that's all I can say. From one former controlled by misapplication of the Bible to another fellow, GO GIRL!

[LND1218]

Okay, here is Bruce Etter's response. I am very grateful that he took the time to respond. That said, I find that there is much I disagree with especially in regards to forums "with no accountability." (I find no greater accountability than the free exchange of information and ideas)

 

The Pro-slavery statements are very interesting to me. I will have to did through the other thread to see if there are direct quotes from Wilson in regards to this. I definately do not encourage misinformation being spread around. If DW is saying one thing in one location and another in Omnibus III that would be of concern.

 

I hope this is helping someone besides me :D

 

Hello January,

 

I am glad that you are searching diligently for a curriculum for your child. I commend you for taking the time to make sure what you are getting is high quality.

 

My general concern about forums like this one is that they tend to be filled with either half-truths or statements that are simply not true at all. The other concern is being taken and later quoted out of context, which has happened to me before on this very forum. I am reluctant to share a lot here if you are simply going to copy and paste my email into the forum. That's the very reason I chose not to engage in the public conversation which can quickly degenerate into a gossip session at best or a back and forth battle of words at worst. I prefer to address individual concerns as they might relate to our vision here at Veritas Press Scholars Academy.

 

The bottom line is that the Omnibus curriculum is made up of the writings of lots of individuals and to make arbitrary connections with all of them back to Doug Wilson would be incredibly misleading. If someone is a teacher at an ACCS school it does not follow that the person is connected personally to Wilson. Just because someone is a member of a church in his denomination or teaches at a classical school does not mean that the person has a direct connection to Wilson. The vision of our school is to bring glory to God by offering a rigorous classical and Christian education, keeping Christ central in all we do, period. No one is involved in secret conspiracies to inculcate Federal Vision ideas into the minds of the young. If you read over the Omnibus curriculum you will find that it is a solid, reformed and evangelical approach, nothing more, nothing less.

 

One example of the problem with forums with no accountability – on this forum Wilson is called “pro-slavery.†I teach Omnibus III and Wilson actually wrote the chapter on the Slave Narratives. He is extremely clear in that chapter that Southern slavery was wicked. Nowhere does he condone the evil institution of slavery. On the contrary, he calls it what it is, sinful.

 

Finally, Omnibus does not even deal with the more peripheral theological issues (discussed on the WTM forum) that tend to divide Christians. Omnibus focuses on the basics from a solid Christian worldview.

 

I hope that helps, January. God bless.

 

Question - was this the entire text of the email or did you edit it before you posted it?

 

It takes a lot to shock me. Really it does. Even when I do not like what I am hearing about a particular figure, even when the information is extremely upsetting I will take the time to go to the relevant accessible source in an attempt to ascertain the truth.

 

Because of that I took the time to email a certain person and ask some direct questions. I made it very clear that I intended to repost his response, because I wanted to give him the oppurtunity to craft a response he was comfortable with or to chose not to respond at all. Here is what I said, "Here is a link to the original thread I started. If it would not be to much trouble for you to contribute your 2cents either directly to the thread or back to me (with the understanding that I will copy it to the thread) I would really appreciate it!"

 

This morning I woke up to a scathing email. :glare: Here is my response, "Mr, *****,

I am completely shocked that you are shocked. I was very clear in my intial contact with you that that was my intent. I never mislead you. You were fully informed that I intended to share your response. I was very honest and stated up front my intentions so you could make an informed decision on how to respond. That was the point of my email. You NEVER stated not to quote you. NEVER. You are free to chose not to engage in forums, but I do. Again, I was completely upfront about my intentions.

 

Furthermore, I have no idea what you mean about "while at the same time lacking the very discretion you claim he lacks". I have no idea what you are referring to. I have never made any claims about DW and for you to accuse me is wrong!

 

Many of these people on the forums I consider friends. Yes, I will share information with them.

 

Again, I do apologize for upsetting you, but I was very clear about my intentions.

 

One final note. Do not use scripture as a weapon to attempt to control me. You have no right!

 

Regards, January."

 

Let this be another lesson to me in the controlling nature of these types of groups. Also, let it be a lesson that even if you do try to be honest, go to the source and share "true" information, you will be raked across the coals, accused, and labeled. :tongue_smilie:

 

I am done! I tried, but no more.

 

Edited: I think it is important to remember what a Forum is.

fo·rum

noun /ˈfôrəm/ 

fora, plural; forums, plural

 

A place, meeting, or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged

- it will be a forum for consumers to exchange their views on medical research

 

A court or tribunal

 

(in an ancient Roman city) A public square or marketplace used for judicial and other business

 

 

Maybe it's just me but there seems to be a disconnect or something missing. Did you quote his entire original email? Are we getting the whole picture of what is going on? It's hard on these forums sometimes.

But there seems to be something missing....

[simka2]

Question - was this the entire text of the email or did you edit it before you posted it?

 

 

 

 

Maybe it's just me but there seems to be a disconnect or something missing. Did you quote his entire original email? Are we getting the whole picture of what is going on? It's hard on these forums sometimes.

But there seems to be something missing....

 

 

That is the entire thing word for word. I did not leave a thing out. That is why I was so blindsided.

[Tullia]

Please do correct me if I'm misreading you at all.

 

I know very well how news accounts can be quite inaccurate in their portrayal of issues similar to ones cited in the Douglas Wilson thread (regarding the marriage issue, for example.) I was very close to people involved in a local church scandal and neither side was portrayed fully in the news accounts.

 

However, I've drawn my conclusions about DW (not Veritas Press) from his own writings, in his own words, in context.

 

Now I know this is not your stance, but to ignore DW's harmful teachings and not investigate his level of involvement at VP is unfathomable to me. But I completely understand people using VP materials and having no idea about DW's views. I do.

 

Are you saying people are drawing false conclusions about DW solely from news reports or out-of-context information? (Asking, not arguing -- really!)s

 

Hello Ellen,

 

I'm not sure if this was directed to me; I see my name at the top, followed by quotes of the OP's material?? so I'm not sure. I don't believe the material in the box under my name came from me. Forgive me if you meant your questions for someone else. :)

 

I probably didn't make myself clear enough about why I brought up news reports, context, etc. I was trying to respond within the parameters of the OP. Because I believe that none of us can reasonably expect to have access to all the pertinent information, and because even well-founded opinions are still highly subjective, I believe the most fruitful line of inquiry would be to examine the Omnibus texts themselves. As I've said elsewhere, I found no examples of Mr. Wilson's more controversial opinions in Omnibus I. I haven't seen later volumes, so can't comment on them. I'm reluctant to hold Veritas Press responsible for Mr. Wilson's opinions with which I might disagree unless they publish those opinions under their name, and I've seen no evidence of that.

 

There are so many different perspectives represented on these boards that it's hard to know how to best deal with opinions/teachings I might feel are harmful. What seems harmful to me might be regarded as entirely right and proper by someone else. I am somewhat perplexed by this kerfuffle, though. Mr. Wilson's opinions are available to anyone willing to search, and his involvement with Veritas Press is not new, nor has it ever been a secret. I've gotten a lot of good information from these boards, but I've always seen it as my responsibility to exercise due diligence by following up with my own research. I think the OP was trying to do just that. It's a shame that things seem to have turned out so badly. I'm disappointed in the response she received.

 

In answer to your question, I believe that the majority of responses in this thread have been reasonable; I won't comment on the nature of other discussions in other places. Whether one finds Mr. Wilson's opinions well or ill advised, I do believe that at least some of the animus directed against him is the outworking of his use of political satire; his habit of skewering modern day "Whigs" is well documented. I was raised in an argumentative family, and was taught from an early age to look for and appreciate the good qualities of folks with whom I disagree. Sometimes, that ain't easy.;)

 

Warmest regards,

Martha

Edited August 5, 2011 by Martha in NM

[Ellesmere]

 

Hello Ellen,

 

I'm not sure if this was directed to me; I see my name at the top, followed by quotes of the OP's material?? so I'm not sure. I don't believe the material in the box under my name came from me. Forgive me if you meant your questions for someone else. :)

 

I probably didn't make myself clear enough about why I brought up news reports, context, etc. I was trying to respond within the parameters of the OP. Because I believe that none of us can reasonably expect to have access to all the pertinent information, and because even well-founded opinions are still highly subjective, I believe the most fruitful line of inquiry would be to examine the Omnibus texts themselves. As I've said elsewhere, I found no examples of Mr. Wilson's more controversial opinions in Omnibus I. I haven't seen later volumes, so can't comment on them. I'm reluctant to hold Veritas Press responsible for Mr. Wilson's opinions with which I might disagree unless they publish those opinions under their name, and I've seen no evidence of that.

 

There are so many different perspectives represented on these boards that it's hard to know how to best deal with opinions/teachings I might feel are harmful. What seems harmful to me might be regarded as entirely right and proper by someone else. I am somewhat perplexed by this kerfuffle, though. Mr. Wilson's opinions are available to anyone willing to search, and his involvement with Veritas Press is not new, nor has it ever been a secret. I've gotten a lot of good information from these boards, but I've always seen it as my responsibility to exercise due diligence by following up with my own research. I think the OP was trying to do just that. It's a shame that things seem to have turned out so badly. I'm disappointed in the response she received.

 

In answer to your question, I believe that the majority of responses in this thread have been reasonable; I won't comment on the nature of other discussions in other places. Whether one finds Mr. Wilson's opinions well or ill advised, I do believe that at least some of the animus directed against him is the outworking of his use of political satire; his habit of skewering modern day "Whigs" is well documented. I was raised in an argumentative family, and was taught from an early age to look for and appreciate the good qualities of folks with whom I disagree. Sometimes, that ain't easy.;)

 

Warmest regards,

Martha

 

Thank you very much, Martha, for taking my question in the spirit it was meant.

 

I did something wrong when I tried to quote you, so no wonder you were confused. Sorry about that.

 

Also, I was trying to keep my thoughts expressed in the Wilson thread out of here since the OP requested that this be focused on investigating the DW/Veritas Press issue, so I wasn't as clear as I had hoped.

 

You did address my question, though and I appreciate that. I thought you were saying the facts stated in the other thread were based on poor journalism, but I see that is not the case.

 

I think (and again, I messed up the quote so I could be wrong) that we agree that the OP was exercising due diligence.

 

And it seems like we both agree if someone wants to know if Veritas Press is appropriate for their home, they need to look at the full story of DW's involvement with the company, check do some research.

 

This addressed generally, now. I came into this thread having learned good deal about DW from his own writings, not from just news reports or opinions tossed around on the forum. But I had no idea about his involvement with VP (I'm quite new to homeschool programs of that sort) and so I also felt it was wise to see if his teachings regarding women, history, and H*V affected the VP materials or not.

 

Thank you again, Martha.

[Spy Car]

The question remains: Why would a publisher chose an editor/author whose views on a subject are so controversial, so notorious, and so repulsive to people of good-will?

 

Especially when those materials are aimed at forming the minds of children!

 

The publishers at Veritas Press have show horrendous judgement in choosing a man like Wilson to write on slavery. They have failed in their responsibilities and duties, and breached a basic trust.

 

Instead of owning up to to their errors it appears Veritas Press is going into a defensive couch, and is attempting to dismiss the serous (and well-documented) concerns of parents over Douglas Wilson's published statements by calling them half-truths.

 

This behavior is unconscionable. We all make mistakes. When a mistake as great as choosing Wilson as the man to write on slavery for children comes to the fore, one would hope for self-reflection on the part of those who have chosen to disseminate the work of a self-described paleo-Confederate.

 

Instead of attacking those who question this lack of judgement, the publishers Press should look into their hearts, recognize how wrongly they have acted, publicly apologize for their association with (and promotion of) Douglas Wilson, and be asking for the forgiveness of their users for their own bad judgement.

 

An apology would not right the wrong, but it would be a step in the right direction.

 

Bill

Edited August 7, 2011 by Spy Car

[LND1218]

That is the entire thing word for word. I did not leave a thing out. That is why I was so blindsided.

 

Thanks for clarifying.

[Susan Wise Bauer]

You know, I'm taking some exception here to the implicit criticism of our forum as "lacking accountability."

 

What's the alternative? Tight control? We already exercise just about as much control as I think is healthy, and sometimes we err in the too-controlled direction. (And sometimes the other way.)

 

Those who publish materials for a wide audience should expect wide discussion about the materials. I have seen plenty of half-truths and distortions about my own books--not only elsewhere, but on this forum too. But the exchange of free information means that, where there is actual falsehood, others step in with differing interpretations and points of view.

 

Valuable ideas are pretty tough and durable. They can stand up to quite a bit of bashing. So can their authors. (OK, we may go away and eat chocolate and weep a bit. But then we come back and benefit from the criticism.)

 

SWB

[Kimber]

Susan,

 

I don't know what homeschoolers would do without you. You are truly a blessing. Thank you for this forum and all that you have done for the rest of us.

 

I have taken your presence and influence in the homeschool community for granted over the years. All I can is thank you.

 

Kim

[SonshineLearner]

 

Valuable ideas are pretty tough and durable. They can stand up to quite a bit of bashing. So can their authors. (OK, we may go away and eat chocolate and weep a bit. But then we come back and benefit from the criticism.)

 

SWB

 

Perhaps we should also send you chocolate :) I do love this forum, and I believe people get called out if they are not fair by their "peers". If the statements aren't true, other authors/companies are welcome to defend themselves.

 

Thank you for a place to have such a wide variety of opinions. :D

[Hedgehog]

You know, I'm taking some exception here to the implicit criticism of our forum as "lacking accountability."

 

What's the alternative? Tight control? We already exercise just about as much control as I think is healthy, and sometimes we err in the too-controlled direction. (And sometimes the other way.)

 

Those who publish materials for a wide audience should expect wide discussion about the materials. I have seen plenty of half-truths and distortions about my own books--not only elsewhere, but on this forum too. But the exchange of free information means that, where there is actual falsehood, others step in with differing interpretations and points of view.

 

Valuable ideas are pretty tough and durable. They can stand up to quite a bit of bashing. So can their authors. (OK, we may go away and eat chocolate and weep a bit. But then we come back and benefit from the criticism.)

 

SWB

 

 

I'd just like to say that I really appreciate the freedom with which we can discuss all sorts of subjects on here. I've been a member of other HS boards in the past and more often than not, the restrictions were much more of a disadvantage than an advantage.

 

Totally agree with the bolded. Without curriculum fairs and conventions available to us here in the UK, discussions like these, and reviews, are invaluable.

 

ETA: And that last sentence doesn't look right. :confused1:

Edited August 7, 2011 by Hedgehog

[Laurie4b]

Thank-you for bringing this up! I was about to put all my chips on Omnibus. IWise Bauer's new history, which may be too biased and thus not entirely historically accurate (based on what I have read on amazon).

 

What to do? What to do??

 

Just a note: I don't know that you could find a history book which someone will not say is historically inaccurate. It is a good educational practice to help your kids know how to evaluate a work, looking to primary sources for info and knowing that what historians do is argue over the interpretation of primary sources!

[Guest Oldspot]

This is.. well. A little late, frankly. But as a student who's been through quite a few Omnibi with VPSA, I have a bit to say in regards to Douglas Wilson's influence on Omnibus.

 

As a caveat, I'm not reformed, so therefore my opinion of Douglas Wilson's worldview is really biased. However, I'm aware that there are lots of reformed people who don't agree with Doug on a plethora of issues, so, I'm not stereotyping you there. =)

 

I personally think that the Omnibus series is wonderful, regardless of its slant towards Wilsonesque thinking. It's wonderful as long as your student has an independent mind, knows what he believes, and can disagree without feeling peer-pressure to agree with some things. I've also felt that fellow classmates are usually open to new ideas (more often than not) so that's a good thing as well.

 

For me, I'm extremely thankful for the approach of Wilson and some others took with the book: it turned my mind on, it made me more independent, it made me question things I'd believed because I'd never thought about them before. It was like having a nimble foe... in order to answer, you have to become more nimble than he. So I think it, on a whole, was a fantastic experience for me. Perhaps not one with a result that Wilson would take great pleasure from...

 

In summary, do I think Omnibus is a good program? Yes. Do I think having Wilson (of all people) write the essay for the Slave Narratives was a bad idea? Yes, that was a monumental lack of judgement. Do I think your student needs to be mature so that he/she doesn't just go along with what he/she reads? YES. Maturity and judgement are necessary and crucial.

 

Have a wonderful day!