3 Generations of Homeschooling to Dig Out of This Mess??

[Ester Maria]

If you have a rare genius that can make that leap, it will be done if they want to acquire that culture - in other cases you will get an improvement, a step further, but your children will still have a different "flavor" when they talk about Latin and Greek than children who grew up in families where that is a generational culture. Until their own children or grandchildren, when, provided continuity, it will have become a generational culture in your family too. I have actually seen that process, it seems to be the typical dynamic: really, a bit like converting to another culture and mindset. The first generation, the "immigrant" one, rarely makes that "switch" fully - but their children and grandchildren are actually "fluent" and "proficient" ones, not the ones who first embarked into the new land.

If you are simply talking about knowledge, concrete knowledge, then Latin, Greek, Hebrew, rhetoric, and so forth are not impossible to learn, at any age, as pieces of the puzzle. It is only this aspect of "family culture", "primary culture" (rather than coming to it formed already), etc. which I am skeptical about, that specific "glueing" of all things into one meaningful unit, the generational experience of reading same texts and advancing in understanding... There, I think that Hunter has a very good intuitive grasp of how these things typically work. None of this is to discourage - on the contrary, I think that learning, all learning, is great :) and that much of the point is in advancing rather than in getting somewhere, according to your own individual path - but if we are to discuss this question in a sort of distanced, objective way, I do think we can talk about that particular dynamic that much of it Hunter intuitively grasped. There is a gap between dreams and reality in most cases, I think that people who bridge it in one generation are few and far between, though until you try, you cannot really know if you are one of them or no - an effort is worth it in every case.

 

I do think it is easier than ever today, though, we may sometime be witnessing a generation of children who made it because of the different nature of communications today, the internet, digitalized works, suddenly having all fo the resources available, as well as the opportunity to communicate with people all over the world all over that classical "ladder". This is a golden era of self-education for interested individuals. Paradoxally, in spite of the ever lowering academic standards, for the first time in history an average Joe actually has most of the "components" of such an education at the click of his mouse, if he is willing to search, work, contact, and learn long hours. I do think it will be very interesting to watch that process and see if there will sometime be a generation of people who managed to replicate at home what used to be the education of fairly closed circles and not easily accessible to all, typically barred by lack of opportunities. However, in some crazy way the thing seems to be "regulating" itself - in spite of all the opportunities at the tip of their fingers, most people seem to remain surprisingly intellectually lazy, next to the privileges previous generations would kill for. I do not know how else to explain the popularity of exepensive and "babied" Latin courses when you have digitalized texts and grammars from several centuries online and things of the kind - but okay, I will spare you that rant now.

 

In short: I think that if you work in a very smart way today and have engaged students, and go out of your way to transform yourself if you lack that background, you can accomplish wonders and this is not just a remote dream - but at the same time I am skeptical as to how many people are willing to do so.

Edited July 30, 2011 by Ester Maria

[Merry]

NM

Edited July 30, 2011 by Merry
NM

[Colleen in NS]

I think this is where a lot of people fail: it is not the lack of resources or desire, but the lack of that intellectually intense culture as a sort of mental "default". This is hard to build on your own, these are things that are a matter of mentality first and foremost, and you if you do not "inherit" it, it may be extraordinarily difficult to come up with that type of mentality which is needed for successful, top-notch classical education. You may still get an excellent education and be a critical and productive adult, but a classical education is a different beast, culturally: it involves a specific relationship with one's culture. ...For people who did not grow up in it, it literally seems to be a process of self-transformation along with simply book learning, of aquiring living knowledge and mental skills along with just learning Latin and Greek. Imagine it like "converting" to a different culture, only that you are actually converting to your own, but in a very different way, with very specific types of connections and diachronic communication with it.

 

For a well-meaning parent without that background, the need for Latin and Greek might be a theoretical musing, something to nod your head when you read it because it "makes sense", but you do not really know what it is like, you do not really know just how things change when you approach your culture that way, and in spite of your best intentions, you are a sort of a blind person attempting to guide another blind person, attempting to pass on something you do not have, out of a convinction that it is good based on arguments you do not fully get from your experience, while you both just learn to see and make these types of connections; but for people who come from families of that tradition, it is a need, it is a living culture, the whole of education is a transmission of that culture first and foremost, and an absolute must. Teaching otheir children Latin and Hebrew is equivalent to teaching them arithmetic, it is a skill of communication with one's own culture and tradition so normal, so default, so needed in their eyes that they do not even consider it an "extra", and they themselves learned it as children and grew up with it, grew up formed by it, have a fundamentally different relationship with it than somebody who acquired it later in life out of academic interest - and then they can pass onto their children that formative relationship with it too, not just facts and knowledge ... Whether one can go to that level of intuition and intimate knowledge, not just facts and rules, but intimate understanding, within one generation, I am honestly not sure -

 

OK, wow, thanks for this explanation! I couldn't begin to be elaborate any thoughts on what you wrote, only because you wrote stuff I would never have thought of before. Thanks for introducing me to a new-to-me way of looking at things. I am the person you described here - who didn't "inherit" it or grow up in it. So, I agree - it's hard for me to get the understanding you are talking about.

 

Probably just disregard my previous post in this thread, lol! I'm scrabbling along, just trying to master basic English grammar! I know that a basic TWTM plan is just scratching the surface. You make me all the more determined to keep going with it. Maybe it will take my family the three generations Hunter was talking about, but I guess it will also require others in my culture getting on board, too?

 

None of this is to discourage - on the contrary, I think that learning, all learning, is great :) and that much of the point is in advancing rather than in getting somewhere, according to your own individual path - but if we are to discuss this question in a sort of distanced, objective way, I do think we can talk about that particular dynamic that much of it Hunter intuitively grasped. There is a gap between dreams and reality in most cases, I think that people who bridge it in one generation are few and far between, though until you try, you cannot really know if you are one of them or no - an effort is worth it in every case.

 

...do not know how else to explain the popularity of exepensive and "babied" Latin courses when you have digitalized texts and grammars from several centuries online and things of the kind - but okay, I will spare you that rant now.

 

I've really appreciated reading your perspective here. And thanks for the bits of encouragement to us all in between the reality checks (blind leading the blind - yep, that's how I feel most of the time!!!)

 

Still waiting to read your review of Henle Latin someday. :D Cuz I *think* I'm doing an alright job, but I'm sure I'm blind to a lot of things about Latin study!!!!

 

I feel like my previous post here is so lame (not your fault, EM - just because of my particular lot in life :lol: - I really love reading your deep and intricate perspectives on life and education)

Edited July 30, 2011 by Colleen in NS

[Trish]

I don't view a classical education as the Holy Grail of education, just one of many routes. So, I'm not counting the number of generations it may or may not take to achieve something that may or may not be ideal for my kids/grandkids/great grandkids.

 

There are plenty of things worth learning that most people don't. Some are practical things that most generations if people prior to the 20th century learned as a matter of course. Others are things unique to the late twentieth/early twenty-first century era that classical educators from long ago would never have imagined.

 

I'd rather have a student who had an Attitude of Learning than one who fits all of the requirements of the Classically Educated Box and doesn't know how to transcend the container.

[Hunter]

Thank you everyone for being patient with me today. I'm not being too consistent with my questions, huh? :-) I was asking/posting whatever I was thinking at the time. When brain glitching, it's impossible to stick to a thesis and defend it. I was just sitting in the middle of a pile of books and thinking/posting about what I was reading at the MOMENT. Forgive me. And I think I'm still doing it :-0

 

I don't think being a second grade Spalding student is so hard, but I think learning to TEACH Spalding with out ever seeing someone model it is really tough. I think knowing how to hold and burp a baby would be hard without having WATCHED it done and having experienced having it done to us.

 

I only had 2 years of dumbed down Latin in high school, but I know how essential (Thank God I got this word back in my vocabulary. It's been gone all day and it's been driving me nuts trying to come up with alternatives) it was to being able to teach my boys Latin and Greek. I had a solid place to start, so was able to do more than just introduce the languages.

 

Any subject we start from ZERO, can take years to understand well enough to teach one year's worth. It's not hard to burp a baby, but imagine trying to read a baby burping manual, without ever having seen it done. That's how I feel with some of this stuff and I think others do too.

 

And there is such...searching for alternative words...encouragement to drop hard things when we get too far past the age it is usually taught. So instead of burping the baby, we could make the baby do a few sit ups and get a good enough response...hopefully...and then just move on with our day, till the next feeding.

 

The Core says we can teach spelling from any book or list, once we have studied WRTR. And teach it with a stick, while writing in the dirt :-) Okay, we don't NEED to be able to teach with any book while writing in dirt :-) But once we CAN, teaching becomes so much easier. Okay we cannot assume our children will want to homeschool, but...I'll bet many of them will, or at least be very involved in their children's education. And if they know phonics and they know what a declension is, it's going to be SO much easier for them. THEY can do frugal housekeeping AND explain a spelling word, while stirring the corn meal mush, with one hand, and a crying but well burped infant in the other.

 

Do we do our children any LONG TERM favors when we abandon classical methods/books to jump ahead to "age appropriate" materials? I now question the...[word gone]...of pushing through to calculus with my son, without having memorized squares, cubes and multiplication tables 20x20. Math lessons took twice as long and included more errors, because we had to do out by hand all the things we could have memorized. Yes, as gifted as he was, he could understand calculus, but it was so much harder than it needed to be, because I had never heard of memorizing cubes and squares and multiplication past 12x12.

 

We made significant progress in Ancient Greek, but he cannot spell. It looked good and advanced to be tackling the Greek...but...I wish...I think...that I had been encouraged to tackle a phonics course with him instead. One that would have prepared him to teach phonics.

 

I don't know, I'm just dribbling from the mouth today :-)

[Hunter]

When I look back into the history of my family - or, better, into the history of families which brought about the one I grew up in - I see this as an ongoing process along with felicities and infelicities of history: several generations steadily build and prosper, an occasional genius makes a shortcut, but then catastrophes happen / people move / etc., so in many ways, the process gets started again. What is unusual, though, is a sort of long-sighted family memory, so in those circumstances it is easier for children to build their way out of their situation because their parents, and if not them, then their grandparents, cherish the memory of success, the work ethics of success, and the culture of learning with an amazing and mobile "cultural capital" which reflects on the mentality, so children do tend to succeed more quickly, or succeed better, because they are driven, backed up and pushed by family and the feeling of obligation, both to the past and the future.

 

Yeh...this is my family. My parents were addicts/unwell...but there was something about them that was different, and it got passed on to me by accident, that set me apart form the other kids in the welfare slums. Mom helped me with my homework maybe twice, but there were books laying around and something indefinable in the air.

[Colleen in NS]

Thank you everyone for being patient with me today. I'm not being too consistent with my questions, huh? :-) I was asking/posting whatever I was thinking at the time. When brain glitching, it's impossible to stick to a thesis and defend it. I was just sitting in the middle of a pile of books and thinking/posting about what I was reading at the MOMENT.

 

Oh sorry, I hope my comment about being confused didn't discourage you. I was just trying to understand your basic questions here. But I hear you now about brain glitching. I think your brain, though glitching, is still trying to spit out one thesis, though, and I'm glad you posted. It's an interesting thread to me.

 

I don't think being a second grade Spalding student is so hard, but I think learning to TEACH Spalding with out ever seeing someone model it is really tough. I think knowing how to hold and burp a baby would be hard without having WATCHED it done and having experienced having it done to us.

 

Ah, OK, this makes sense. I did have the advantage of seeing my mother model teaching it. She taught my then-2.5 year old basic phonogram sounds, as an experiment, lol! He loved doing it, so she continued (she was staying with us for six weeks while I recovered from a c-section). Then she showed me how to do the spelling notebook with him when he got older. Still, though, if you want help, I can try to explain here in words the modeling that she did for me. OH!!!!! And this reminds me of something that may help you. I will be teaching a friend of mine (who is taking her 13yo out of school this year) how to use WRTR (so, yeah, she is starting from scratch with him - basic WRTR, basic WWE-style narrations, lower than current grade level math - but she is determined to build his foundation from scratch - she knows the jumping ahead he had in school did him no good). She ordered some materials from the Spalding foundation recently, and she showed me some DVDs, with teaching demonstrations on them!!!! This would have been really handy for me to use way back when, when my mother had to go home after being here for those six weeks! Have you seen them? Although, they may just be demonstrations of introducing and teaching the phonograms...I can't remember if demonstrations of using the spelling notebook are included. (sorry for the side-tripping here - just trying to help out with the WRTR aspect)

 

And there is such...searching for alternative words...encouragement to drop hard things when we get too far past the age it is usually taught. So instead of burping the baby, we could make the baby do a few sit ups and get a good enough response...hopefully...and then just move on with our day, till the next feeding.

 

Yes, I hear you on this. Esp. with regards to something like WRTR. I do believe WRTR is something anyone of any age can benefit from - it's not just for grades 1-6 or whatever. Heck, my mother once had a 55 year old student that she tutored with it on the side! He knew, after hearing her describe the program, that it was something he needed, so he could learn to read.

 

The Core says we can teach spelling from any book or list, once we have studied WRTR. And teach it with a stick, while writing in the dirt :-) Okay, we don't NEED to be able to teach with any book while writing in dirt :-) But once we CAN, teaching becomes so much easier.

 

I agree with what you say your Core book says (I haven't read it). After my ds finished the WRTR list (in grade 3!!) and then I didn't know what else to do - if I should find another spelling program for some reason for him - I decided to take the skills we had learned in WRTR, and apply them to random words I picked from his science/history/literature books. Words that I knew would be a challenge for him to analyze.

 

Okay we cannot assume our children will want to homeschool, but...I'll bet many of them will, or at least be very involved in their children's education. And if they know phonics and they know what a declension is, it's going to be SO much easier for them. THEY can do frugal housekeeping AND explain a spelling word, while stirring the corn meal mush, with one hand, and a crying but well burped infant in the other.

 

:iagree: I tell my kids this all the time - teaching grammar/spelling/reading/math/Latin/logic/writing will be SO MUCH easier for them to do than it is for me. They see me struggle, and they get frustrated with my slowness sometimes. I hope they will come to understand that they will have a much better ability to home educate their kids than I do - that it will be easier, because of the skills they will have that I don't have. And so I hope they will WANT to home educate because of this. I don't want them to shy away from it just because *I* had a hard time.

 

Do we do our children any LONG TERM favors when we abandon classical methods/books to jump ahead to "age appropriate" materials? I now question the...[word gone]...of pushing through to calculus with my son, without having memorized squares, cubes and multiplication tables 20x20. Math lessons took twice as long and included more errors, because we had to do out by hand all the things we could have memorized. Yes, as gifted as he was, he could understand calculus, but it was so much harder than it needed to be, because I had never heard of memorizing cubes and squares and multiplication past 12x12.

 

(bolded part - wisdom? sanity? appropriateness? sensibility?)

 

I don't think we do favours by jumping ahead. I have a math-loving child, who probably could have jumped into a more conceptual algebra book earlier than this year. But I didn't let him (despite seeing 5th/6th/7th graders doing algebra), because I wanted to make sure he had math facts and arithmetic concepts thoroughly solidified first. OK, but now you are making me panic - mult. tables to 20x20? He only did up to 12x12 - why 20x20? And what's this about memorizing cubes and squares? Ds has memorized some squares just for fun, but now you've got me thinking.....how would it help him?

 

We made significant progress in Ancient Greek, but he cannot spell. It looked good and advanced to be tackling the Greek...but...I wish...I think...that I had been encouraged to tackle a phonics course with him instead. One that would have prepared him to teach phonics.

 

Would he study WRTR with you?

 

Thoughts about family....I guess I never realized until recent years, but even though I think I had a terrible p.s. education; because of my mother's background in early elementary education (and she truly LOVES teaching), she passed on a love for reading to me after I had my first baby (we had books growing up, but I only read a very few classics - the rest was teen junk that I bought - but not my Mom's fault - my parents were divorced, and she raised five of us by herself, while teaching full-time). She showed me how to find really good books and nice illustrations for picture books - not just books that "looked educational." So, in the midst of difficult circumstances, she managed to pass that on to me. And, after going at this TWTM gig for a few years, I discovered that my father, who had gone to Boston College High School and Boston College, had had a classical education! I had no clue. Mostly because he was out of my life for so many of my growing years - I didn't really know him. But one day a few years ago, I remembered his schooling background, and asked him if he'd ever studied Latin, this thing called logic, and this thing called rhetoric (all of which were new concepts to me), and he said pretty much, "Well, yes of course I did." I was floored - I had never met anyone who had studied these things, even among homeschoolers I knew. I wish he lived closer to me, because we'd be going to visit him a lot. I have pumped him with questions over the phone ever since this discovery, and he is my biggest champion-er with classical ed. So maybe, apparently, I did have somewhat of an inheritance, but due to earlier family circumstances, some of that inheritance got intercepted (I did inherit good educational things from my Mom, too).

 

And now I simply must go to bed - been up too late too many nights this week! Will check back tomorrow. Love this thread.

Edited August 3, 2011 by Colleen in NS

[Penelope]

From The Core:

 

If You understand phonics, you can scratch a word in the dirt with a stick and teach a child to read the word.

 

An educated person is not someone who knows something, but someone who can explain what they know to others. Americans used to expect that the core knowledge they learned from their parents was to be passed on to the next generation. I'm happy when my students get the correct answer to a question, but I am even happier when they can explain the answer. I want to know that the time my students spend learning is useful for themselves and the next generation.

 

Penelope, have you read and/or implemented WRTR? It's really challenging for me! But I stopped making any progress with my spelling a LONG time ago and I don't know how to make further progress in this area without going back and learning to spell phonetically instead of by sight. If I had been raised using this book, it would be simple to pick up where mom had left off, but starting from scratch is...well...difficult to say the least, for me, and for many others here.

 

 

 

Not WRTR, but SWR, which I understand is an offshoot that is quite similar. I taught myself phonics by doing the SWR notebook. :) Then I decided to use AAS with my children. But I use the SWR principles, along with other resources, to teach reading. It's true that it does take time to go back and learn these basics, and time is something that is often in short supply. There are so many things to learn, and those hours I spent learning phonics could have been devoted to other pursuits, if I had been taught the rules when I was 7.

 

Thank you for starting the discussion. I can identify with feeling inadequate in some areas of classical education. I am not sure how I will provide a serious Latin education for my children, for instance. I certainly don't have that generational culture of classical languages Ester Maria wrote of, in my home. It feels daunting.

 

After reading more of your posts, and Ester Maria's posts, I think I understand more of what you are asking. I was a little confused by the inclusion of phonics and basic arithmetic, as I don't see those areas as difficult to master for most adults. I was also perplexed when you spoke specifically of the lower middle class because, in my estimation, many Americans in the higher socioeconomic classes did not receive a classical education either. And lower income doesn't always correlate with educational level. In our culture, I'd think the individuals most likely to have any sort of command of classical languages are either professors, or seminary graduates. And the latter aren't necessarily in the higher income brackets. (I'm speaking of classes here as economic strata as they are commonly defined, and it just occurred to me that you might mean the term in a different sense).

[Ester Maria]

It seems that we were posting at the same time, Colleen. I actually seriously hesitated posting that response... the first time I gave up and saved the draft into that document where I store my replies that were not meant to be LOL (:D) - replies for which I have a really, really hard time judging whether they would be accepted well, or they merely have a pot stirring potential which may be dangerous to release when such emotionally charged topics are discussed. The sole process of replying sometimes helps me to sort out my thoughts, but I am sometimes way too nervous about the result to actually share it. So there it goes. But this time, I thought this was such an excellent question that I could not resist recovering that reply and finishing it. I am still not sure it is a wise thing to discuss these things.

 

I think that the "blind leading the blind" phenomenon is not restricted to attempting to pass onto your children a culture and a mindset which you yourself acquired later in life. Quite often even a familiar culture is hard to crystallize - how do you 'translate' one entire academic experience into words of another one, how do you ensure the continuity, how do you pass on feelings, how do you translate the world of yesterday into the conceptual framework of today, and so forth. I think a huge gap exists even in parent-child couples where you are at least somewhat familiar with what you are attempting to pass on. In fact, between any two persons from different generations, but with your children, it is especially difficult as it is emotionally charged and the context in which they are being formed is no longer the same one in which you were formed. Rather than Parnassus, I actually think much better analogy comes from the Biblical culture: we are talking about attempting to be a sort of Moses, but a Moses that, remember, paradoxally will never really get into the land where he attempts to lead. Just like the whole process of getting there is long, and there is something about it that just stings, that feeling that there has to be a shift of a generation along the way. We really never will be in the same world / world of associations / "mental" future, or even present, as our children. In that aspect, I do not think that people with a top notch classical education have much parental advantage over anyone else... it just seems to me that if the educational model and the "world" within which you attempt to educated your children is from the beginning foreign to you, it carries an extra difficulty. But in many ways, it is just one side of that process that we all, ultimately, go through. I do not think anyone of us has "figured out" life, or education, or even their own culture, "enough", for it not to be, at least in some way, blind leading the blind. But on a positive note, other than it being fundamentally tragic, there is quite an adventurous touch to it, to not really knowing where you are going or even why, and figuring out that mess of life together. In the days when I do not take life so seriously, I am fairly amused by it all, and by how chaotic it is. :tongue_smilie:

 

I do not even think that a classical education is a hill to die on. I do consider it an optimal educational model in the context of Western culture, but many times people have other priorities, or more urgent matters to attend to, and that is just fine. A healthy, emotionally healthy, happy child, literate and functional by the standards of their society, is a much more important part of the picture than the ability to sight read Homeric hexameters, recite In Catilinam or go through several layers of Biblical commentaries by the time they graduate. I think all of us would agree on that, as well as we can understand that not every situation lends itself to that type of education, or, if it does, maybe not to that extent of that type of education.

Yet, for some people it may be inherently more important because of its cultural value, even if we may not even attain our personal goals there. I for one am not sure that I will attain those to the level desired. And then there is a personal tragedy of being "that generation" which did not outshine their parents'. You know, realistically, that such a generation has to happen too along the road, but so many times you wonder, why me, why that burden on me... the world is supposed to go on and advance, and I feel like half a barbarian when I consider the extent and the depth of the erudition of the previous generation. I think I am getting better at putting things into perspective, or even fighting some of my own cognitive blocks, and trying to walk the line of that delicate balance where you do want your children to go further, and you absolutely want to pass those things onto them, but at the same time, you do not want too much stress over something which is in the grand scheme of life still fairly trivial, even if you are sad to recognize it as such because of what it means to you, but really, a hexameter more or less... who cares... the world will go on. I imagine most people fought that particular battle, but for some reason, some groups of people, in spite of it, stick to their guns and say, fine, we will be an anachronism and I will put those hexameters on the same level as math, and that will be in our family culture, and we will not give it up, even if there are fairly convincing reasons to do so. And I do think it is easier to do so if you come from a family where that is a commonplace, or was a commonplace, to consider it valuable. Because of that I said that it seems so difficult to me to reach the same conclusion while it being a foreign world to you, not the same type of relationship - but if anything, in some really weird way, I can appreciate coming from that "other" position and opting for such an education just as much, if not more. When I say a different type of relationship, I really mean different, not in a "lesser" or "higher" way. I suppose I am equally interested in the minds of people who came to classical education from the outside as they are in the minds of people who have it as a generational thing, who grew up with it. I think that it is very courageous. In some ways, sometimes, I even envy people who got to discover, say Latin, at a latter age than "normal" in my mind. :tongue_smilie: I think it can be a very beautiful type of relationship too, discovering it for the first time with already mature eyes... Learning at any age is definitely worth it. I can imagine many insights and different ways of looking at things which can open when you master something in a different life period than it is typically done. It can be a strength in many ways, not necessarily a weakness - not to mention the bonding potential with your students when you tackle something together... a mother who most always knows how to translate a passage can be pretty boring LOL, and in many ways has to learn how to "fabricate" that first-time, newbie excitement for her children.

 

I ramble again, right? :D I need to learn how to halve my posts.

Edited July 30, 2011 by Ester Maria

[Hunter]

Ester I'm glad you didn't half your posts or keep them to yourself. I hung on every word. Seriously. Thank you everyone else who has been posting too. I'm REALLY interested in this topic today, as you all can see :-)

 

Colleen, I read the chapter on math in The Coreat the same time a retired science professor friend was talking about how much more accurate it is to use memorized math facts compared to doing out the problems. And at the same time I was working through Saxon Algebra 2 as a review (before I lost even more of my math skills) and was already coming to the same conclusion, but in confusion and vaguely and with no confidence.

 

Someone here, told me to print out charts and use them instead of memorizing the facts. Using the charts cut my mistakes by about 75% and cut my time by about 50%. Imagine how much quicker and accurate if I had the facts memorized :-0 No one had ever suggested such a thing to me before.

 

Other than a bit by the Bluedorns, talk about this subject is pretty much nonexistent. I guess it doesn't sell books. But maybe it does, NOW, after we have a glut of books that do NOT discuss it.

 

I have always been comforted, rather than stifled, by talk about reality. I don't think reality talk takes away hope. I look at it as a fall back plan to do FIRST and then try and add some frosting on TOP after the cake has been BAKED and cooled. Or even another layer. But if you try and bake a cake too big for the oven with ingredients you don't have, you'll have no cake at all. Being exhausted, scared, ashamed, confused, etc doesn't make ME feel hopeful! It's the opposite. Taking out a nicely risen, but small and plain cake, with talk and plans for the next one being a bit bigger and fancier feels...nice...to ME, even if I might not be around to see it.

Edited July 30, 2011 by Hunter

[jenbrdsly]

Anyone who has experienced crushing poverty understands the effects of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs.

 

http://psychology.about.com/od/theoriesofpersonality/a/hierarchyneeds.htm

 

The reality of lack of resources and oppurtunities, and the time devoted to survival that cannot be devoted to studying.

 

 

Oh my gosh, I'm only half-way reading through this thread, and can't wait to read the rest. This post spoke to me so deeply because I used to teach in a horribly impoverished and crime ridden school district. I had never seen this pyramid before. Thank you for sharing it.

[Spy Car]

If the parents and children in this lower middle class family are of above-average intelligence, it can be done in one generation.

 

At least, that is what I am currently trying to prove.

 

You left out part of the equation! I got my oldest son through the logic stage and I did it well. Now, as he begins the rhetoric stage, he brings his own talents and motivation to the task. It isn't just me, now, pulling him along through uncharted water. He has grabbed the rudder out of my hands, and will probably go much faster now!

 

I wasn't going to teach him Latin. He is studying Latin and Greek, and has his eye on Hebrew and French. I was going to insist on completing Algebra I by the end of 10th grade. He finished it before 9th grade. I was going to have him study Biology by 11th grade. He's doing it in 9th, at double speed.

 

You see, if the child is firmly rooted and grounded in the early years, he will be greater than his Mommy Teacher. He will have an amazing love of learning as well as an amazing cache of skills and knowledge. He'll take off, with a young man's grit and fire, to conquer Mt. Parnassus by himself if there is no other way.

 

And that is a very, very good thing. I have exhausted myself, just getting him through the logic stage. I am sending him on now, with the help of some good DVD teachers and courses. I can only encourage him now. I cannot teach him.

 

Awesome and inspirational post!

 

Bill

[9763653]

This has been an immensely interesting thread. I haven't read TWTM, but I should certainly order it. I have some thoughts, and some questions, about all that was discussed in this thread so far.

 

I come from a working class background, and certainly did not receive a classical education. My family of origin has its problems, and investing in education and the future was one of them as I was growing up. On the other hand, my mother always had a fighting spirit and the attitude that almost anything is possible, if you put your mind to it.

 

I am proud to say that she was one of the first female construction workers in the country I grew up in. That is what she wanted to do, and though her brain was more than capable of doing many other things, this is what she chose. That attitude helped me in many ways. I, too accomplished the "impossible".

 

My public school education was mediocre, and I didn't finish it. But I was interested in politics and history, have an IQ of 145, and gave myself a "classical education" - though not in the sense that I think you are talking about here. I read classics, for sure. At 14, I devouring was works of major philosophers I never stopped learning. I also lived in many different countries, and soaked up the culture of all of them. My multicultural background, and my experiences in life and politics, coupled with intelligence and work ethics gives me, I think, a solid foundation to teach my own children.

 

My eldest just started first grade. My children are trilingual, not due to a push for classical education but because they are growing up in a new country, and I am bringing my own two mother tongues to the table.

 

I am not certain about teaching Latin, Greek and Hebrew. I don't speak those languages, but I do speak six others. Those who teach Latin and Greek, why do you think it is important? Don't you think there is value in not being Euro-centric as well? In the coming years, I am planning to teach the other languages I speak. Russian will enable my children to read Russian classics in their original language, for instance.

 

What will Latin add to my children's education, as opposed to languages that are in current use and not dead languages? Knowledge of current major languages will offer job opportunities and the ability to live in those countries. That is something very practical.

 

Note, this is a genuine question. I would love to hear thoughts on why Latin and/or other classical languages is important to you.

[Hunter]

What will Latin add to my children's education, as opposed to languages that are in current use and not dead languages? [/Quote]

 

I'll bet you will enjoy this book. Climbing Parnassus

[Colleen in NS]

Ester I'm glad you didn't half your posts or keep them to yourself. I hung on every word. Seriously.

 

:iagree: Yes, completely glad you (EM) took those documents back out and worked on them. Please, don't ever stop posting here. This *is* a classical education website, and you have some great perspective to add to us here!

 

I have always been comforted, rather than stifled, by talk about reality. I don't think reality talk takes away hope.

 

:iagree:

 

How's that for a shallow reply? :D

 

More later when I get a chance to digest and think some more. Most thought-provoking thread for me in awhile!

[TracyP]

I have always been comforted, rather than stifled, by talk about reality.

 

I agree and I love this conversation. Thank you so much for the great question. Something very similar has been stewing in the back of my brain for a long time. I just could never quite put it into words.

 

What will Latin add to my children's education, as opposed to languages that are in current use and not dead languages? Knowledge of current major languages will offer job opportunities and the ability to live in those countries. That is something very practical.

 

Note, this is a genuine question. I would love to hear thoughts on why Latin and/or other classical languages is important to you.

 

I think you will find this thread very helpful. (and it may convince you not to teach Latin with your language background)

 

To the original question:

I have so many thoughts swirling that I don't think I have any hope of putting them into a coherent answer - and I have no excuse.;)

 

There is no way that I can achieve EsterMaria's version of a classical education in this generation. She comes from a very different background culturally and educationally. Culturally I doubt my family will ever get there. Educationally I think we could be there in 3 generations and possibly even 2. *EM, please note that I don't feel in the least bit bad about this. I love your posts. They are so very helpful as I look ahead in this classical ed journey.*

 

As I stop to think about this I would even have to say that I am already a 3rd generation. Not in classical ed, but in a family where the importance of education is emphasized. Reading is something we do for fun, love of learning is a lifestyle not just something we want for our kids, and rhetoric...oh my, the art of argument is so important. These things have trickled down slowly to me. I am now going to try to tackle (TWTM version of) a classical education.

 

Sometimes I feel like I am starting from zero but I guess I really am not. To get there from zero in 1 generation is most likely not going to happen. I think all any of us can do is get as far as *we* can. That is going to be different for each family. Personally I want to get all the way through rhetoric. If my dc choose homeschooling / afterschooling they will be able to go the same distance but with more ease and likely more depth.

 

I would agree with the pp that at some point if you cannot go further, then you must focus on real world job skills. I don't think being at logic stage math and writing at the end of 12th grade is good enough. However, as I write that I wonder if that is true. Hmmm, that is thought provoking. I wonder if you really mastered the logic stage skills if you couldn't go on to do very well in college.

 

Thank you for the opportunity to work this out for myself. Thinking through an answer does so much to solidify my own goals in my brain.

[SorrelZG]

 

I think this is where a lot of people fail: it is not the lack of resources or desire, but the lack of that intellectually intense culture as a sort of mental "default". This is hard to build on your own, these are things that are a matter of mentality first and foremost, and you if you do not "inherit" it, it may be extraordinarily difficult to come up with that type of mentality which is needed for successful, top-notch classical education. You may still get an excellent education and be a critical and productive adult, but a classical education is a different beast, culturally: it involves a specific relationship with one's culture. Because of that it is hard to make it within one generation if you start from what we would call a kind of "zero" (not zero as illiterate, but you get my point - I do think, however, that many people do NOT start from that zero even if it seems to them that they do), because it takes not only an intellectual transformation in terms of adding more concrete knowledge, but it takes a sort of paradigm shift towards life and learning in general. For people who did not grow up in it, it literally seems to be a process of self-transformation along with simply book learning, of aquiring living knowledge and mental skills along with just learning Latin and Greek. Imagine it like "converting" to a different culture, only that you are actually converting to your own, but in a very different way, with very specific types of connections and diachronic communication with it.

 

For a well-meaning parent without that background, the need for Latin and Greek might be a theoretical musing, something to nod your head when you read it because it "makes sense", but you do not really know what it is like, you do not really know just how things change when you approach your culture that way, and in spite of your best intentions, you are a sort of a blind person attempting to guide another blind person, attempting to pass on something you do not have, out of a convinction that it is good based on arguments you do not fully get from your experience, while you both just learn to see and make these types of connections; but for people who come from families of that tradition, it is a need, it is a living culture, the whole of education is a transmission of that culture first and foremost, and an absolute must. Teaching otheir children Latin and Hebrew is equivalent to teaching them arithmetic, it is a skill of communication with one's own culture and tradition so normal, so default, so needed in their eyes that they do not even consider it an "extra", and they themselves learned it as children and grew up with it, grew up formed by it, have a fundamentally different relationship with it than somebody who acquired it later in life out of academic interest - and then they can pass onto their children that formative relationship with it too, not just facts and knowledge ... Whether one can go to that level of intuition and intimate knowledge, not just facts and rules, but intimate understanding, within one generation, I am honestly not sure - it seems highly improbable to me even if I consider maximum committment and interest, more like a third generation thing, if all goes well and everybody works hard to get there. Of course, barring those exceptional "leaps" which happen now and then, when a rare genius and a rare enthusiasm manages to bridge in their person the gap between several generations.

 

 

This is where I am.

 

And feeling extremely humble in light of Ester Maria's posts .. and inspired to renew my efforts in my own education and my commitment to the educational vision I have for my children.

[Hunter]

Teaching the Trivium page 356:

 

Notice, I am not saying we should have low standards, but that we should establish realistic standards, and realistically raise those standards with time.

 

The Core page 97:

 

Read lots of advanced literature out loud to the student. A strong speaking vocabulary, even if you can't read or write well, signifies intelligence.

 

In response to Tracy P,

 

I think every homeschool parent should stop in at the local junior college and ask what remedial texts they use to get unprepared students ready for 101 level classes. You can often order them from Amazon in an older edition for a few dollars. Most are equal in rigor to the logic level materials often discussed here, but not as good. Sometimes they are good and are worthy of adding to your lesson plans. It really helps to see them. Someone here posted about building a bridge from the top down?

 

A grade 8 diploma used to mean something significant, and was all that many shopkeepers and tradesman had. It was enough. Yes, we were not putting men on the moon yet, but we also didn't have calculators and word processors. I don't think the need for higher education has increased or decreased, since then.

[justamouse]

i love this thread

[FrogMom5]

Hunter - I understand your question and, while I did not read all of the posts, I did read Dulcimeramy's and EsterMaria's. I agree with both of them.

 

Both dh and I come from lower-middle class families. We both have Master's degrees. Yet, we feel woefully inadequate to teach our dc a truly classical education because we learned little to none of the things in this style of ed.

 

You are right, I struggle to learn and my dc, especially my oldest, gets older each day. While he has a much better foundation than dh or I ever had, he doesn't have the WTM education we want for him. Our youngest is 4 so she has a chance. It took me so long to learn the what and how of each and evey subject (the why I got right away). Even now, I am still learning and still lacking.

 

Yes, all 3 of my dc will have "successful" lives, as the world defines it. And, they will be more well-read, well-versed and able to think critically than the majority of other people. But, that's not the end goal, is it? I want TWTM, LCC and so on. My hope is that they will pass on what we taught them plus more to their kids. So, to answer your question, maybe 2 generations if they work as hard at learning these subjects as dh and I.

 

Excellent thread from you, as usual.

Denise

[justamouse]

There are families that use the term "1st generation homeschoolers" who are looking ahead to future generations the same way that immigrants sacrifice the comforts and oppurtinities of the 1st generation to plan ahead for the future of their clan.

 

I'm not saying families SHOULD do this. I'm just curious about discussing the IDEA.

 

I totally understood what you were trying to say.

 

 

On the other hand... Things are really not so simple. Children who are not privileged with such a background often retain a bit of a "foreign flavor" when they acquire on their own that culture and seem to have, in many ways, a fundamentally different relationship, not as immediate one, with the classical heritage, as children born into families of generational transmission of that heritage who grew up with it, or educated accordingly.

 

 

This, I believe, is what Charlotte Mason meant when she said, "Education is a life."

 

When I first started the journey of homeschooling, my first step was creating the life of education within the household. Then it took years to become organic. But, it did.

 

It is outside the norm. It's not easy, but within the house where it is understood as valuable, it can be done.

 

Once that shift is made, I think the whole could be accomplished in a generation. Or, at least I hope. ;)

[Critterfixer]

I think every homeschool parent should stop in at the local junior college and ask what remedial texts they use to get unprepared students ready for 101 level classes. You can often order them from Amazon in an older edition for a few dollars. Most are equal in rigor to the logic level materials often discussed here, but not as good. Sometimes they are good and are worthy of adding to your lesson plans. It really helps to see them. Someone here posted about building a bridge from the top down?

 

A grade 8 diploma used to mean something significant, and was all that many shopkeepers and tradesman had. It was enough. Yes, we were not putting men on the moon yet, but we also didn't have calculators and word processors. I don't think the need for higher education has increased or decreased, since then.

When I talked about top down building of a bridge with an analogy to education I thought less about content and more about the weight of the vision of the classical education. There's nothing wrong on the surface about preparing a child with an education so that he can get a good job and make enough money to live on and support a family, although I do think there is something wrong in telling anyone that the key to prosperity and happily ever after is the job obtained by having the right letters after your name. As I see it, the classical education is aiming for something a bit higher than just getting someone ready to enter the workplace. It is about aiming to take part in the Great Conversation. That's pretty heavy. A lot of structure would be needed to take the weight.

 

Most people probably do function with a ninth grade or lower level of education. I believe that many people read at that level and no higher. But I do think that the need for higher education is tremendously increased. On the surface, the need for new technology and advances in scientific areas would be driving the demand for higher education. Another factor would be increased salary for individuals with a degree vs. those without. To me those factors are less important that the need to have young people with a better understanding of how to seek truth, how to find the answers where they can, and how to understand and grapple with major philosophical and religious differences between peoples.

Edited July 31, 2011 by Critterfixer

[FrogMom5]

Our middle ds is an example of family culture, I think. We adopted him at age 4. Until age 3, he lived with his family. Yes, they were very poor. Being poor does not automatically mean a lack of value on education, as is evidenced by Hunter and others on this board. In Tigger's family though, it did mean that.

 

In our family, quality literature is highly valued. Tigger only wants to read books involving TV, movie or comic book characters, if he reads at all. We finally got him to read some of The Magic Treehouse books, which is a step up but not good quality. He tried reading the Chronicles of Narnia, his choice, but didn't really comprehend the story. Nor did he understand the humor in Artemis Fowl, another series that does not qualify as great lit. but it is funny.

 

The problem is not his intelligence. We knew he was a bright boy. When we screened out learning disabilities, his IQ was tested and found to be high average. So, he's bright.

 

He comes from an environment where education was not highly valued. Therefore, he doesn't have the same foundation as our other dc. He starts from a place much further behind them. It's the culture he's from, not the culture of his country but his family. And this speaks to some of what EsterMaria was saying and what Hunter is getting at, I think.

 

If you start from this type of environment, you first have to learn how to create a new environment and then you can begin to work towards your goals. It takes time as well as great effort. Can it be done in 1 or 2 generations? Maybe but maybe it takes longer. There are many factors involved, which have already been discussed in this thread. It's an interesting question. Thanks for starting this thread, Hunter.

Denise

[Hunter]

I think the concept of top down building applies to many things.

 

At the high school board it so evident that people are building top down from the expectation of a 4 year selective college. So many students don't end out going directly to a 4 year selective college though, so it's not the best default plan for many families.

 

I think some families might be better planning top down on a multi generational plan to get to a classical education, and then planning top down for junior college, when it's obvious that a particular student or generation isn't going to make it all the way. And skip getting side tracked by the current traditional high school curriculum.

 

It's kind of like, starting a great foundation, and then putting up a tar paper shack on top, to keep the rain out, until the next generation can finish the foundation and start building a house.

 

If you stop building the foundation and jump into house building too quick, each generation over and over is going to have shaky foundations with houses that topple over in the storms. There will never be a family homestead, strong and secure, for future generations to shelter in.

 

The Core pg 120

One Purpose of education is to pass knowledge and skills along to the next generation, so even if a basic skill doesn't seem useful to me, maybe I can use it to help another.

[Colleen in NS]

I'm still :lurk5: and will be back later today or tomorrow to talk some more.

[robsiew]

I'm not talking about being able to make a living. Yes, it only takes one generation for a bright student to be able to make a living and learn some maths and sciences.

 

I'm talking about a solid CLASSICAL education. Latin, Greek, Hebrew, spelling/phonics rules, beautiful penmanship, reading the Great Books with ease, rhetoric, logic, etc.

 

It's an interesting question. I have pondered this, not necessarily in the education sense (although I am the first in my immediate family to graduate from college), but in the faith sense. I am a first generation Christian in my family. I'm finding it terribly difficult to create a new pattern for my life as well as my children's. There are steps I take now, but my prayer for my kids is that they can start at a more developed place than I did and take their faith even further.

 

I'm guessing that would be the same with any big change a family is trying to make. We are also first generation homeschoolers... I don't know that I'm trying to create an education legacy, but certainly, if my children decide to homeschool they will have a leg up because they've been raised in that environment.

 

In my experience change happens over time... the bigger the change, the more time it takes. Usually, change starts out as superficial and underdeveloped and over time develops into change that lasts with perseverance and hard work! :001_smile:

[Hunter]

In my experience change happens over time... the bigger the change, the more time it takes. Usually, change starts out as superficial and underdeveloped and over time develops into change that lasts with perseverance and hard work! :001_smile:

 

When we try too hard and take short cuts, are we just teaching our children parlour tricks instead of changing anything significant? My younger son learned lots of "tricks" that people clapped at, but what did we accomplish long term, I'm wondering. In contrast my older son's slower and steadier and less "classical" approach might have been more "classical" after all :-0 I'll be dwelling on this for awhile.

 

We have all met children of immigrants given an ultra American first name, and coached in American history and literature...but seldom taken out of the immigrant neighborhood. The young person seems divided and confused, rather than assimilated.

 

Parlour tricks can get our mother-in-laws and school officials off our backs, giving us freedom to educate with less oversight, and maybe get a child into a school he wants so badly to attend, but...I think as educators...we need to be very careful about when we use them, and to know the difference between tricks and something more significant.

 

My older son is always stating how significant his religious training was, even though he was an athiest. I was second generation Christian and confident and skilled in teaching Christianity to my boys. Maybe what he was responding to was the realness of that part of his education?

 

In the books of Joshua and Exodus, the slave generation from Egypt had to be killed off, and the next generation, the one to conquer the promised land. Even Moses didn't get to go in.

Edited July 31, 2011 by Hunter

[Ester Maria]

Welcome to the boards, Dialectica. :)

I am not certain about teaching Latin, Greek and Hebrew. I don't speak those languages, but I do speak six others. Those who teach Latin and Greek, why do you think it is important? Don't you think there is value in not being Euro-centric as well? In the coming years, I am planning to teach the other languages I speak. Russian will enable my children to read Russian classics in their original language, for instance.

[...] What will Latin add to my children's education, as opposed to languages that are in current use and not dead languages? Knowledge of current major languages will offer job opportunities and the ability to live in those countries.

These are excellent questions and they have been amply discussed on these boards. Over the years, many people have found themselves asking those questions and trying to find their own middle ground - providing their children with a basic classical education, but at the same time making sure that their 21st century education, with all of its specific needs and demands, does not suffer either. There is only so much time in a day, in a week or in the twelve years of primary and secondary education and everyone finds themselves, sooner or later, having to draw some lines somewhere and privilege some things over other things, even if those other things would be no less worthy academic pursuits. Much of it has to do with family culture and lifestyle, opportunities they have, but also with their children's personalities, developing interests, and unique needs. An education has to be adapted, because one always educates a concrete child in concrete circumstances, there is no detailed "one size fits all" recipe and even children from the same culture will sometimes require very different educational paths and focuses to get their maximum out of them and prepare them for their path - let alone children with different geographical / national / parental culture / linguistic backgrounds. Therefore, it does not surprise me the least if you question the value of Latin / Greek / Hebrew for your child in your circumstances, or intuitively find that some other languages (e.g. Russian) would be a culturally better choice.

 

What we have here, though, is a group of parents that does find literacy in classical languages a reasonable goal for all sorts of reasons, and the most "hardcore" among us to do so because we are convinced that there is a special kind of relationship between those languages and the (over)generalized concept of the "Western culture". We find that, in order to understand that culture really well, one needs to know its roots and the context of its genesis, and from that point on, follows its transformation into the world as we know today. We are not talking about a simple study of history, or an added subject or two - this is not a general education plus a few "dead" languages - the fact that you study those languages and those cultures fundamentally transforms how you approach everything else. Literature, art history, philosophy, become quite different and a lot more profound when studied in the context of transformation of those ideas and that root situation you started with. Classical and Biblical culture used to be the bulk of all Western knowledge for centuries, a common set of associations, a dialogue of the generations - in fact, up until early or even mid 20th century, it was an educational default. To various extents, but it was the core of the humanist education, regardless of what one went to study later (for example, there were many orientalists in the past several centuries - but classically educated!).

 

So yes, classical education IS a distinctly Western education, as you say, and as such, not really "universal" (in fact, even in various European nations it has historically had different and distinct "flavors", because it got combined and intertwined with a specific national-linguistic culture as the core of education, so a classical education in Italy and in Germany will differ in many ways). I do not find anything "wrong" about it being distinctly Western - I want my children and foremost grounded in *their* culture (though in our case, we actually have a mix of several cultures LOL), in the roots of what is *their* world, and then to expand into the rest of the world as wanted or needed. I find it a reasonable wish and I think many people in quite different cultures may feel the same about the need to root the education of their children in their culture, its roots and development. I do not think that a child in China "should" be classically educated because classical education is the best education in the world :D, but I do think that for a child in most of the "Western world" that is THE education in many ways.

 

That does not mean that even in the Western world it is not possible to provide a child with a rich, fulfilling, rigorous (:D) education to their needs without it being a classical education. It is possible and it is in fact being done by many. But that is a rather modern invention (past several generations, the trend that goes hand in hand with the development of mass education which "elitized" what used to be a mainstream form of education - of course, in those centuries past, for those that could get it in the first place) and it is not an education in the spirit of the best of the national and generally Western tradition of education and scholarship, which produced that dialogue of generations and had major effects on art, literature, etc. A new world with new needs, maybe, but some of us for various reasons want that old basis.

 

Now you may ask, what is the point of basing your education on the world that is gone? That is a question that can be approached very well from the Jewish pespective: after the destruction of the second Temple and the creation of diaspora, Judaism did not disappear... it transformed. Even if its original context of genesis was "gone", Judaism - as an idea - never died, but in its transformation it created an astoundingly wealthy intellectual culture. A parallel can be drawn with the classical world and its transformation to the world we know today. Once you have that education, you read and see and think about things differently. It is not something that you can learn from one book - it is an intellectual experience first and foremost. We want our children educated with that experience, not with a book narrating what that experience used to be and, in many ways, we want them to take their place in the continuity of that mix of associations / ideas that run through their culture and in that dialogue about the roots. Does it mean that we raise "classicists"? Not really, my daughters may as well end up playing in an orchestra or working in a lab, but the formative element of that experience is what we want. An education is not a preparation for the workforce - that is a "side effect" - an education is a transmission of culture. It is not an "accident" of whims - it is a process. And we base it on what we find the core and the value.

 

The amount of nuances, connections and layers of understanding you get when you read works of classical antiquity in original is incredible - for people who see value in that antiquity it is a reasonable choice to opt to access it in original. Bible is even more drastic - there is a reason behind that expression that reading Bible in translation is like kissing your loved one through a veil. And to be able to engage in the "conversation" of centuries of commentaries on that Bible is priceless. Academic skills acquired in the process transfer to just about any field - because it is a deep, meaningful, intellectually intense education. Our children still learn modern languages, sciences, mathematics, and function to the needs of their concrete surroundings and overall 21st century - but their education is principally tailored around that cultural core that we find valuable.

[Hunter]

Who has changed their signature here, or redone their homeschool plans, or done something significant, since we started this thread?

 

I feel so much less sure of myself, and much more humble, and wanting to listen instead of talk.

[Jayne J]

Wow. EsterMaria, the comparison of first generation classical homeschoolers to Moses barred from the Promised Land is so apt. I stand on the borders and look in and some days I am so angry, bereft, and resentful that I am not to cross that border. Most days I am just emboldened to be darn sure my children do. Thank you for a vision to match the reality.

[Critterfixer]

When we try too hard and take short cuts, are we just teaching our children parlour tricks instead of changing anything significant? My younger son learned lots of "tricks" that people clapped at, but what did we accomplish long term, I'm wondering. In contrast my older son's slower and steadier and less "classical" approach might have been more "classical" after all :-0 I'll be dwelling on this for awhile.

 

This struck a chord with me, because it has been too easy for me to question my pace of teaching with my boys. I've got two reasonably bright individuals, one with learning challenges, and I have bemoaned the fact that both are not plowing through books on their own. Both struggle with reading, or seem too. I feel the time constraints to push, to force them into material they are less ready for. Sink or swim! However, I know that is not the answer. I've come to the conclusion I would rather have them both stay at a spot until they have it down cold before moving on, even if it means repeating a lesson four or five times. I really think that this approach will do more to build their reading skills by instilling confidence, recognition and fluency. It is hard, however, because they CAN do it--that is, they can read ahead of where they are--but not well.

 

At the high school board it so evident that people are building top down from the expectation of a 4 year selective college. So many students don't end out going directly to a 4 year selective college though, so it's not the best default plan for many families.

Given the cost of a four-year college education now and the rate of inflation in college costs, I think it likely that more and more families are going to find college out of reach for their children. It's a particularly vicious two-horned dilemma. To go to college and pay for it one needs to work to get enough to live on, even if some expenses are paid by scholarship or loans. To get a job that will pay enough to support that goal, the person has to have a college degree. Compound that with the fact that one will be working for many years just to pay off debts incurred from trying to get through college, at much, much less that what was anticipated, it is a really disheartening prospect.

Which means that teaching from the top down is going to involve some real tough conversations about reality...

Edited July 31, 2011 by Critterfixer

[justamouse]

Our middle ds is an example of family culture, I think. We adopted him at age 4. Until age 3, he lived with his family. Yes, they were very poor. Being poor does not automatically mean a lack of value on education, as is evidenced by Hunter and others on this board. In Tigger's family though, it did mean that.

 

In our family, quality literature is highly valued. Tigger only wants to read books involving TV, movie or comic book characters, if he reads at all. We finally got him to read some of The Magic Treehouse books, which is a step up but not good quality. He tried reading the Chronicles of Narnia, his choice, but didn't really comprehend the story. Nor did he understand the humor in Artemis Fowl, another series that does not qualify as great lit. but it is funny.

 

The problem is not his intelligence. We knew he was a bright boy. When we screened out learning disabilities, his IQ was tested and found to be high average. So, he's bright.

 

He comes from an environment where education was not highly valued. Therefore, he doesn't have the same foundation as our other dc. He starts from a place much further behind them. It's the culture he's from, not the culture of his country but his family. And this speaks to some of what EsterMaria was saying and what Hunter is getting at, I think.

 

If you start from this type of environment, you first have to learn how to create a new environment and then you can begin to work towards your goals. It takes time as well as great effort. Can it be done in 1 or 2 generations? Maybe but maybe it takes longer. There are many factors involved, which have already been discussed in this thread. It's an interesting question. Thanks for starting this thread, Hunter.

Denise

This is exactly what I was thinking about last night with this thread rumbling around in my head.

 

It's a family culture (and more, As EM says).

 

It's striking me because at this same time, my family has become Catholic and along with going to church, there's a deep culture that goes along with it. Perhaps in 10 years I'll get a handle on it, my youngest children hopefully will be fully immersed.

 

It's the same thing with education. Education is an atmosphere. Education is a life. The same thing can be said with Catholicisim.

 

In a way the education bit is easier for us because in Dh's and my case, we're higher on that pyramid Hunter posted (which I tend to feel guilty for). From the beginning I've homeschooled not for myself, not my children, but for my grandchildren. I'm amassing this library for them. I'm homeschooling MY kids so that they don't ahve to build this atmosphere-it's a part of their lives that they breathe every day.

 

What's interesting is that there's a blog I follow, an older mom, homeschooling her last of 7, and they're Catholic. Her children are the first homeschooled generation and they have gone on to places like Harvard.

 

Their life is scaffolded by the liturgical year and books/homeschooling in a way that I had only glimpsed until I found her blog. I knew what I wanted, but I had no practical way of applying those ideas until I found her.

 

Who has changed their signature here, or redone their homeschool plans, or done something significant, since we started this thread?

 

I feel so much less sure of myself, and much more humble, and wanting to listen instead of talk.

 

Well, this thread has just further solidified where I was headed. Collective unconscious, coincidence, whathaveyou. It was a sign marker for me, telling me I'm on the right track.

[FO4UR]

 

 

What's interesting is that there's a blog I follow, an older mom, homeschooling her last of 7, and they're Catholic. Her children are the first homeschooled generation and they have gone on to places like Harvard.

 

Their life is scaffolded by the liturgical year and books/homeschooling in a way that I had only glimpsed until I found her blog. I knew what I wanted, but I had no practical way of applying those ideas until I found her.

 

 

 

 

 

Link?:bigear::001_smile:

[justamouse]

Link?:bigear::001_smile:

 

 

ourmothersdaughters.blogspot. com

Edited August 1, 2011 by justamouse
adding website

[FO4UR]

I'll pm you

 

 

Thanks!:001_smile:

[Colleen in NS]

Who has changed their signature here, or redone their homeschool plans, or done something significant, since we started this thread?

 

I feel so much less sure of myself, and much more humble, and wanting to listen instead of talk.

 

Yep, I'm still :lurk5:. I've been busy the past two days and not able to read and really think about what I'm reading here, so I can't ask questions or comment just yet. But, I also got an eye-opener with EM's post, so that quieted me down (in a good way). :D

 

I stand on the borders and look in and some days I am so angry, bereft, and resentful that I am not to cross that border.

 

me too.

[Hunter]

It's striking me because at this same time, my family has become Catholic and along with going to church, there's a deep culture that goes along with it. Perhaps in 10 years I'll get a handle on it, my youngest children hopefully will be fully immersed.

-it's a part of their lives that they breathe every day.

 

Their life is scaffolded by the liturgical year and books/homeschooling in a way that I had only glimpsed until I found her blog. I knew what I wanted, but I had no practical way of applying those ideas until I found her.

 

Well, this thread has just further solidified where I was headed. Collective unconscious, coincidence, whathaveyou. It was a sign marker for me, telling me I'm on the right track.

 

I have jumped on and off both Christianity and Classical education several times now. I reach road blocks I don't know how to get around and have to BACK UP and look for a narrow path, because the wide road that is currently popular just isn't working for ME right NOW.

 

You can't post the link here? If not can you PM it to me? Ever since my pagan phase ended and I found my way, sorta, back to Christianity, I am VERY interested in the Catholic liturgical year.

[TheAutumnOak]

I'm not entirely persuaded that everyone truly understands the question .. or perhaps the goal that Hunter is talking about reaching. There are so many threads I've read about how everyone has their own interpretation of a "classical education" and their ability to accomplish it will depend greatly on that interpretation and then on the individuals themselves - some of us and some of our children just plain have to work harder than others.

 

Regardless of how many people use TWTM here I'm truly unsure that there are all that many that truly even value a classical education. Just for example, last time I read it it said that Latin was essential to a classical education (even if there isn't an agreement with others that would say it is central to a classical education) and it would appear from time spent here that most people simply don't care that strongly about that element and so have redefined 'solid classical education' for what really is simply a 'solid education', at least according to their definition of 'solid' which is probably definitely a high goal and something worked hard for and deserving of a sense of pride for accomplishing -- but not what Hunter is talking about, as far as I can tell.

 

I agree that there is a possibility in one generation to go from mediocre PS "education" to a truly good education that I personally believe greatly outshines the general output of regular college graduates thanks to these great resources we can glean from but to do what Hunter is talking about? Who even puts up a serious fight for Latin, let alone Latin AND Greek? Probably a few here but for most of us ... how many care? I don't know that too many are persuaded that there is value in it above modern languages so my point isn't to put any view down but merely to point out that the starting point would be to actually WANT what is described as a classical education (because while a classical education is a good education, not all good education is classical - there is no need to slap "classical" on it to make it "good").

 

So, I would be interested to hear from people that hold the same goals as Hunter but personally I'm thinking it would take more than one generation and that it would depend heavily on being able to at least pass on to your child not just as much of the knowledge you're talking about as possible but a valuing of the goal that would inspire them to do the hard work necessary to go further with their own children.

 

I hope some of that made sense .. at least to Hunter. Just to sort of sum up my point .. I didn't read the question as being "How many generations do you think it takes to go from a typical PS education to a substantial education that you would be proud of?"

 

If you have a rare genius that can make that leap, it will be done if they want to acquire that culture - in other cases you will get an improvement, a step further, but your children will still have a different "flavor" when they talk about Latin and Greek than children who grew up in families where that is a generational culture. Until their own children or grandchildren, when, provided continuity, it will have become a generational culture in your family too. I have actually seen that process, it seems to be the typical dynamic: really, a bit like converting to another culture and mindset. The first generation, the "immigrant" one, rarely makes that "switch" fully - but their children and grandchildren are actually "fluent" and "proficient" ones, not the ones who first embarked into the new land.

If you are simply talking about knowledge, concrete knowledge, then Latin, Greek, Hebrew, rhetoric, and so forth are not impossible to learn, at any age, as pieces of the puzzle. It is only this aspect of "family culture", "primary culture" (rather than coming to it formed already), etc. which I am skeptical about, that specific "glueing" of all things into one meaningful unit, the generational experience of reading same texts and advancing in understanding... There, I think that Hunter has a very good intuitive grasp of how these things typically work. None of this is to discourage - on the contrary, I think that learning, all learning, is great :) and that much of the point is in advancing rather than in getting somewhere, according to your own individual path - but if we are to discuss this question in a sort of distanced, objective way, I do think we can talk about that particular dynamic that much of it Hunter intuitively grasped. There is a gap between dreams and reality in most cases, I think that people who bridge it in one generation are few and far between, though until you try, you cannot really know if you are one of them or no - an effort is worth it in every case.

 

I do think it is easier than ever today, though, we may sometime be witnessing a generation of children who made it because of the different nature of communications today, the internet, digitalized works, suddenly having all fo the resources available, as well as the opportunity to communicate with people all over the world all over that classical "ladder". This is a golden era of self-education for interested individuals. Paradoxally, in spite of the ever lowering academic standards, for the first time in history an average Joe actually has most of the "components" of such an education at the click of his mouse, if he is willing to search, work, contact, and learn long hours. I do think it will be very interesting to watch that process and see if there will sometime be a generation of people who managed to replicate at home what used to be the education of fairly closed circles and not easily accessible to all, typically barred by lack of opportunities. However, in some crazy way the thing seems to be "regulating" itself - in spite of all the opportunities at the tip of their fingers, most people seem to remain surprisingly intellectually lazy, next to the privileges previous generations would kill for. I do not know how else to explain the popularity of exepensive and "babied" Latin courses when you have digitalized texts and grammars from several centuries online and things of the kind - but okay, I will spare you that rant now.

 

In short: I think that if you work in a very smart way today and have engaged students, and go out of your way to transform yourself if you lack that background, you can accomplish wonders and this is not just a remote dream - but at the same time I am skeptical as to how many people are willing to do so.

 

I am just finding this thread, read through all of it, and agree with what is written above...

 

I grew up in the projects of an inner city in what would be considered extreme poverty...My DH was born in Puerto Rico in a VERY poor town in worse poverty than I was in...He grew up here, where his mom worked several jobs and he still wore shoes with holes in them and didn't have enough food every day...We both graduated from high school and did some college, but neither one of us finished...I am homeschooling my boys, but I realize that unless I have a rare child, they will do better than we did, but they won't be at the same place as a child who had parents from different circumstances...My DH works in retail management and I would consider us lower middle class, but to our families who still live in poverty, we are doing well...Generations move forward, but I understand what Hunter is saying here...It is hard for someone who has never lived in poverty to understand how far a person has to come to end up on the other side in one generation...Some people do it, but it is not the norm...Economics unfortunately have a lot to do with the opportunities you have...My boys don't take ANY lessons or participate in ANYTHING because we only have one car and can't afford to join things...I am sure that will put them behind others who can afford these opportunities...I am grateful for what we can afford (curriculum and supplies) and I will do the best I can...

[Hunter]

autumnoaks :grouphug:

 

Poverty can...sometimes do good things for our boys. My oldest went to college looked so ragged he made John Boy Walton look like a fashion plate. At just 16 not only did he have to work enough hours to pay his way through school, but he also had to pay for the manditory insurance required to be allowed on campus.

 

Professors used to take him out to lunch to quiz him on his childhood, because they were so impressed with him. Other professors used to literally drag him into their classrooms, from the hallway, after a lesson plan fell flat to see if he understood the material, and then BEG him to take their classes.

 

He's just working in retail, but he has taken 2 floundering stores and put them into top 1% stores that stay there as long as he does. He earns enough in bonuses that at 24 years old he was able to pay for a wedding and build a house this year.

 

My boys have lived through some crushing poverty. There were times it eased up, but...they know what it's like to ration food and freeze and not own a single pair of pants without holes in the knees.

 

It's going to be interesting to see what my sons do when they have their children.

[Colleen in NS]

I have jumped on and off both Christianity and Classical education several times now. I reach road blocks I don't know how to get around and have to BACK UP and look for a narrow path, because the wide road that is currently popular just isn't working for ME right NOW.

 

You can't post the link here? If not can you PM it to me? Ever since my pagan phase ended and I found my way, sorta, back to Christianity, I am VERY interested in the Catholic liturgical year.

 

You know, if you ever felt like it, I would love to hear your whole life story. Even via pm. But please don't feel obligated. I just think your life story would be interesting to read.

 

Economics unfortunately have a lot to do with the opportunities you have...My boys don't take ANY lessons or participate in ANYTHING because we only have one car and can't afford to join things...I am sure that will put them behind others who can afford these opportunities...I am grateful for what we can afford (curriculum and supplies) and I will do the best I can...

 

I totally hear you. This is pretty much why I quieted down after EM's posts here - I realized I really don't know what I'm talking about with this one-generation thing. Wish I could have met you in Philly.

[HollyM]

I haven't read the entire thread, so forgive me if this has been covered.

 

When I first began our homeschooling journey 6 years ago, I had every intention of following the outline of the WTM completely. As time passed, I came to realize I have to meet my child where he is both mentally and culturally. With this realization also came the stark truth that my child, a Native American, really is not best served culturally by following some of these curriculum and reading suggestions. This is a decidedly Eurocentric approach which just does not fit in some families.

 

I do try to keep the fundamentals in the back of my mind as a "core" base but I do not feel compelled at all to try to follow the curriculum as if it is the holy grail. The holy grail, after all, has different meanings to different people (both literally and figuratively.)

 

I do so appreciate the thought that has gone into the work in the WTM books and wish I would have been given this kind of education. But then I am of European extract and it would have been a good cultural fit for me. For my son though, who may one day go back to his tribe to help and work with them, it's better he knows their/his language than that of those from a continent that eventually conquered, killed and subjugated his ancestors. (FWIW,Spanish is not the root of his tribe's Central American language.)

 

I worry more about him being able to think for himself rather than recite facts back about things that probably will not be relevant to him - and isn't that what it's all about in the end?

 

I also cherish the Story of the World series, it is excellent and my son is so much richer for having gone through it vs. what he would have gotten in a public school environment. Even this though was supplemented heavily with more historical information about his culture.

 

We have to use common sense with our children and meet them where they are while challenging them to go further but I think that we have to do that without following a script. I hope my son educates his children by giving them this backbone and filling it in with the things that will be relevant to them and if that is achieved, I've done my job well.

[SorrelZG]

Who has changed their signature here, or redone their homeschool plans, or done something significant, since we started this thread?

 

I feel so much less sure of myself, and much more humble, and wanting to listen instead of talk.

 

I'm incubating thoughts. Ive pulled a few books down off the shelf. It may take me weeks.

[justamouse]

I'm incubating thoughts. Ive pulled a few books down off the shelf. It may take me weeks.

 

I'm reading Climbing Parnassus again. :001_smile:

[FrogMom5]

Hunter and AutumnOak - I think you two should get together and write a book based on this very topic. I will buy copies and give them to my extended family members as Christmas gifts. You both work your tails off and scarifice yourselves for your children and your grandchildren. So many people in our country have so much and take it for granted. They would certainly never make the sacrifices you've both made for the benefit of their children and grandchildren. :grouphug:s to both of you.

Denise

[d.g.]

I'm incubating thoughts. Ive pulled a few books down off the shelf. It may take me weeks.

 

:iagree: This is me. I'm not changing anything I'm doing with my sons for this year, but I am rethinking my self-education path. It will probably be a few months before I have it all pulled together.

 

 

I'll be back with more later, but DS just finished breakfast and wants to get started on his schoolwork early. :001_smile:

[TheAutumnOak]

Hunter and AutumnOak - I think you two should get together and write a book based on this very topic. I will buy copies and give them to my extended family members as Christmas gifts. You both work your tails off and scarifice yourselves for your children and your grandchildren. So many people in our country have so much and take it for granted. They would certainly never make the sacrifices you've both made for the benefit of their children and grandchildren. :grouphug:s to both of you.

Denise

 

:blush: Thanks so much Denise...

[Critterfixer]

I posed the OP's question to my teacher this morning. My mother home-schooled all four of us at different times in our lives. After thinking about it for a few minutes she said, "One generation, depending on the determination of the teacher and the motivation of the child. It takes both things. A determined mother won't get anywhere if the child lacks the motivation. A third thing to add would be discipline, but a child who is motivated to learn can learn discipline."

 

Our family did not start out in poverty. We were lower middle class. My father graduated from college, but my mother married young and did not finish more than a year of college. She was an excellent student in high-school. She did not read aloud to us often, and never had time to read much for herself, until bedtime, where she would try to read as much as she could. Between homeschooling us she worked cleaning houses to be able to pay for curriculum for four children. I helped. So did my brothers and my sister.

My father taught himself roofing to bring in the extra money we needed per month to live on. I helped. So did my brothers and sister, despite being afraid of heights. We bought second hand clothes and books instead of toys, and we spent HOURS, quite literally, at the town library.

 

Today, every one of us has graduated college. Those of us who did not get scholarships, like myself, cut the cost for my parents by doing whatever we could. I worked two jobs and lived in the veterinary school as a working student so that I could go. My brother is a nurse, another brother a bilingual teacher ( despite the fact that no one else in the house is bilingual), I'm a veterinarian, and my sister is an accountant. We all managed to excel in areas that our mother was not gifted or trained in.

Now, maybe that isn't a full blown classical education, but my sister and I are now well on our way to working for our classical education.

 

Who says school stops after college? I've got what's left of my lifetime to get my classical education, and now I've got the added motivation of teaching my own children after the classical model. Just because a child hasn't gotten a full classical education at home does not mean he cannot continue on his own. To tell the truth, I think that's what the whole idea of classical education is about. Somehow, the satisfaction really comes from the journey.

[justamouse]

I am just finding this thread, read through all of it, and agree with what is written above...

 

I grew up in the projects of an inner city in what would be considered extreme poverty...My DH was born in Puerto Rico in a VERY poor town in worse poverty than I was in...He grew up here, where his mom worked several jobs and he still wore shoes with holes in them and didn't have enough food every day...We both graduated from high school and did some college, but neither one of us finished...I am homeschooling my boys, but I realize that unless I have a rare child, they will do better than we did, but they won't be at the same place as a child who had parents from different circumstances...My DH works in retail management and I would consider us lower middle class, but to our families who still live in poverty, we are doing well...Generations move forward, but I understand what Hunter is saying here...It is hard for someone who has never lived in poverty to understand how far a person has to come to end up on the other side in one generation...Some people do it, but it is not the norm...Economics unfortunately have a lot to do with the opportunities you have...My boys don't take ANY lessons or participate in ANYTHING because we only have one car and can't afford to join things...I am sure that will put them behind others who can afford these opportunities...I am grateful for what we can afford (curriculum and supplies) and I will do the best I can...

 

Don't underestimate yourself.

 

Poor farmers could read and understand The Federalist Papers. They didn't have all sorts of classes, swim meets, tutors and personal drivers to get them everywhere.

 

I'm reading a book right now, The Restoration of Christian Culture, (Catholic, but applicable to any denomination) that is tilting my world. It's segueing right into this conversation. It's not only about restoring Christian culture, but about the education, the Great Books, Liberal Arts education that is the foundation of that culture.

 

As I read it (I'm almost done) I'm wanting to go back and read Charlotte Mason's books all over again, because his argument for building this culture in the younger years is everything she espoused.

 

"....I have to say, alas, that even the Great Books movement, so good in many ways, is based upon a false rhetorical assumption: students simply don't have the prerequisites such an education supposes. Tutors in their seminars betray the sweet reasonableness they have espoused by introducing Plato, Aristotle or St. Thomas to unformed minds who haven't exercised and purified their imaginations first in the "child's garden of verses" as Robert Louis Stevenson called it-I mean, the thousand good books that children and adolescents used to read before they tried the great ones."

 

He goes on to say,

 

"When you plant even the best children's literature in even the brightest young minds, if the soil of those minds has not been richly manured by natural experience, you don't get the fecund fruit of literature which is imagination, but infertile fantasy. Children need direct, everyday experience of fields, forests, streams, lakes, oceans, grass and ground so they spontaneously sing with the psalmist,

 

Praise the Lord from the earth, ye dragons and all ye deeps, fire, hail, snow, ice, stormy winds, which fulfill His word; mountains and all hills, fruitful trees and all cedars; beasts and all cattle; serpents and feathered fowls....

 

If they don't know the facts to begin with-not as something in National Geographic, or a zoo-they cannot learn to sing or love to read the children's literature which celebrates these things, and if without direct experience of reality and the love of it, you put them into a Great Books course you turn out smart, disputatious types with little real content to their agile arguments."

 

So, what he's talking about here is free (apart from the cost of travel). Pack a picnic and go to a state park, run through streams, play in lakes and rivers. Overturn rocks and find crawfish (even in NJ). Look for salamanders, watch the ants, identify birds. Keep reading good books. Go to the library.

 

It's not out of your ability. You're both too strong for that.

Edited August 1, 2011 by justamouse
clarification

[SorrelZG]

Don't underestimate yourself.

 

Poor farmers could read and understand The Federalist Papers. They didn't have all sorts of classes, swim meets, tutors and personal drivers to get them everywhere.

 

I'm reading a book right now, The Restoration of Christian Culture, (Catholic, but applicable to any denomination) that is tilting my world. It's segueing right into this conversation. It's not only about restoring Christian culture, but about the education, the Great Books, Liberal Arts education that is the foundation of that culture.

 

As I read it (I'm almost done) I'm wanting to go back and read Charlotte Mason's books all over again, because his argument for building this culture in the younger years is everything she espoused.

 

"....I have to say, alas, that even the Great Books movement, so good in many ways, is based upon a false rhetorical assumption: students simply don't have the prerequisites such an education supposes. Tutors in their seminars betray the sweet reasonableness they have espoused by introducing Plato, Aristotle or St. Thomas to unformed minds who haven't exercised and purified their imaginations first in the "child's garden of verses" as Robert Louis Stevenson called it-I mean, the thousand good books that children and adolescents used to read before they tried the great ones."

 

He goes on to say,

 

"When you plant even the best children's literature in even the brightest young minds, if the soil of those minds has not been richly manured by natural experience, you don't get the fecund fruit of literature which is imagination, but infertile fantasy. Children need direct, everyday experience of fields, forests, streams, lakes, oceans, grass and ground so they spontaneously sing with the psalmist,

 

Praise the Lord from the earth, ye dragons and all ye deeps, fire, hail, snow, ice, stormy winds, which fulfill His word; mountains and all hills, fruitful trees and all cedars; beasts and all cattle; serpents and feathered fowls....

 

If they don't know the facts to begin with-not as something in National Geographic, or a zoo-they cannot learn to sing or love to read the children's literature which celebrates these things, and if without direct experience of reality and the love of it, you put them into a Great Books course you turn out smart, disputatious types with little real content to their agile arguments."

 

So, what he's talking about here is free (apart from the cost of travel). Pack a picnic and go to a state park, run through streams, play in lakes and rivers. Overturn rocks and find crawfish (even in NJ). Look for salamanders, watch the ants, identify birds. Keep reading good books. Go to the library.

 

It's not out of your ability. You're both too strong for that.

 

This resonates with me .. and challenges me. As I'm thinking on these things I've really been thinking more ahead than about right now while my children are little. Yes, I've been recommitting to reading to them a whole lot more but he's right, the children need more than the words - they need whatever contact I can give them with the experiences those words are about. I have not been giving that the place it ought to have on my priority list.

 

Also, I think he expresses what has been (attempted to be?) communicated in previous posts - that the issue is not a markedly different and greater level of education (in the sense of, say, a college degree, for example) but rather a markedly different and a greater person. (The word 'greater' probably needs clarifying or defining so as not to offend someone but unfortunately I have a screaming baby to attend to and can't quickly put the required thoughts into words).

Edited August 1, 2011 by SCGS

[regentrude]

A grade 8 diploma used to mean something significant, and was all that many shopkeepers and tradesman had. It was enough. Yes, we were not putting men on the moon yet, but we also didn't have calculators and word processors. I don't think the need for higher education has increased or decreased, since then.

 

Actually, it has - because there are hardly any jobs in basic manufacturing anymore. Machines accomplish more effectively what lots of people used to do by hand, plus many manufacturing jobs can be done cheaper in countries with cheaper labor. So, more jobs require a higher education.

A country with this level of wages needs to do work the others can not do - because it is unrealistic to compete with other countries in less innovative sectors. So, if jobs are created in the US, they will not be factory jobs. but will require a higher level of education.

As is evident by the disadvantages of people without college on the job market.