Copywork takes way too long

[LolaT]

It takes DD way too long to do copywork in WWE1 and FLL2. On avg. around 30 min. On FLL, she's copying a couple of poem lines from The Year and it's become like an insurmountable object now. I'm not sure if it would be ok to just dictate (and in some cases, spell out) the sentence(s) for her? When doing AAS2 spelling with dictated sentences, she doesn't have a problem.

 

Any ideas? Does anyone else have a similar issue? :confused:

Should I consider a diff. curriculum that doesn't make use of copywork.

[Penelope]

Do you have the older or newer version of FLL? When WWE first came out, there were some posts indicating that one would eliminate the copywork in FLL if also doing WWE. I thought that the newer version of FLL was supposed to reflect that and take some of it out, but I'm not sure if that happened or not.

[Ritsumei]

If there's too much, drop some. The book suggests what to do, but you decide if it's right for your child. Especially if you're getting copywork from multiple sources, I think I would not hesitate to drop it in that situation. Particularly if the child wasn't thriving. I'd keep the parts she liked the most, or drop everything but the poem until it's finished (I think it's good to finish hard things), but I'd get rid of something.

[boscopup]

I would drop one set of copywork as well. Is your sig correct that she's 1st grade? Or is she 2nd grade now? When we were doing FLL2 and WWE1 together, we were able to do copywork from both at the END of the first grade year, but definitely not much before that. I ended up dropping WWE copywork completely when we switched to R&S English, which has them basically copying some sentences most of the time. R&S is actually going better because there's something for him to do with the sentence rather than just copy it. He seemed to be zoning out while copying, and wasn't really paying enough attention to the sentence to learn anything from it. Also, his handwriting was HORRIBLE when copying, whereas it's actually pretty nice when doing just about anything else!

 

I'll add WWE copywork back in when we move to WWE2 in 4 more weeks, as they do dictation using the copywork passage, and I think that will be very useful to him. We also copy his WWE1 narration on day 4 as directed still.

[FairProspects]

I think I would try to address why it is taking her so long.

 

Is she daydreaming and staring off into space? Do you leave her alone to do it (WTM argues that at this age teaching is most effective with parent at elbow)? Does she not have letter formation down? Is she saying her hand hurts? Has she had her vision checked?

 

The fact that she can do dictation easily but not copywork makes me think there might be a vision issue here.

[Carol in Cal.]

Does she already know how to write the alphabet, or is she having to think about each and every letter?

[PeterPan]

I'd get her eyes checked. But don't go to a regular doc, go to a developmental optometrist. http://www.covd.org It's actually very hard to change focus and go from one thing to another, back and forth like that. If she has problems with her eyes, that's a common place where it will show up. So no, you DON'T want to stop doing copywork, lands alive. You want to find out WHY it's hard for her. And you might as well find out now as a few years from now. Ask me how I know. :)

 

PS. There can be other problems as well (problems with the motor control/dysgraphia, dyslexia, etc.), but the eyes are a place to start. In any case, you want to get answers.

[Kipling]

Like others have said, first try to figure out what the problem is - too much copywork, vision problems, easily distractible, etc. We had a problem with copywork, and here's what worked for us.

 

For my DD, copy work has always been an issue because she is a dawdler. She is perfectly capable, but she starts staring off into space, picking at her pencil lead, etc. I found that by giving her very small timed goals helped this problem. For example, if her copy work was 20 words long, I would tell her she had 60 seconds to write 5 words. I would set the timer for her and she'd write. Then, I'd give her another 60 seconds to write another 5 words. Until she finished the passage. This helped her stay on task better. She enjoyed racing against the clock. I didn't give her any reward for finishing in time, just praise. And I didn't give any kind of punishment for not making the time. This seemed to work for her because she enjoyed having it broken down into very small increments and beating the clock. Gradually, we worked up by lengthening the time and the word requirement. After a while of doing this, I would involve her in the challenge, "here's your copy work. How long do you think you need to finish it?". She would always come up with a reasonable goal, and I'd set the timer. Eventually, we weened her off the timer, although by the end of the school year, she was struggling with getting distracted again. I think I'll use the timer when we start school back up in august.

[2GAboys]

If your daughter is 6 I would not frustrate her by giving her more than one complete sentence a couple of days a week as copywork. At this stage of the game, she needs to learn how to correctly form individual letters using a handwriting program. My understanding of the goal of copywork after using WWE and FLL level, (done levels 1-3 with both programs) is that a child stores in their minds and muscle memory the correct look and feel of properly written English, they are practicing writing sentences correctly from day one under close suprvision, as opposed to writing unsupervised, gobbly-gook thereby establishing undesirable synaptic connections in the brain, mistakes a child will likely therefore repeat. In first grade, I had my children do copywork and I would always direct their attention to how a sentence is "a group of words that expresses a complete thought and that all sentences begin with a capital letter and end with a punctuation mark." I also took the opportunity to reinforce phonetic rules they were learning. The amount of copywork is not so important. That needs to be tailored to the individual child's ability. WWE came out after FLL. The author says it is not necessary to do FLL copywork if doing WWE. Quality over quantity.

[EKS]

Having copywork take forever when dictation does not can be a sign of a developmental vision problem.

[abbeyej]

I'll third (I think) having her eyes checked by a developmental optometrist. Assuming she is able to READ the material, copywork should *not* be this challenging to her, and given that you say she can do dictation fairly easily, I suspect one of two problems... Either:

 

1) She has some type of vision or tracking problem that's causing her to have real difficulty translating what's on the page to her brain and back to the page... (Could also be dyslexia-type issues, but since you don't mention any problems with spelling or phonics or writing down the dictated spelling, I'm leaning away from that as a possibility.

 

2) You're doing spelling dictation *with* her and you're *handing* her the copywork to do on her own. If that's the case, try changing your approach to copywork. Sit or stand next to her while she does it and offer feedback as she goes. "Yes, good job. Start at the top. Okay, keep going. You're doing great. Don't forget to put a space there! Good, one more line..." So she doesn't feel abandoned and/or get distracted by anything and everything 'cause you're not there to pull her attention back to her work. Don't go fold the laundry and expect her to finish her copywork.

 

So... If I were you... I'd call and make an appointment with a developmental optometrist and let them know that you want a "developmental exam". (Many who do the developmental stuff also do regular exams, and they'll need to block off more time for the full developmental exam, which should involve playing some games, even crawling around on the floor type stuff in addition to merely checking her visual acuity.) In the mean time continue with the copywork, but make sure that she's always doing it *with* you and not on her own. See if it makes a difference.

 

... Now, if the problem is simply that you're asking her to do copywork that is *well* above her reading level, then that's a different problem. Copywork can be challenging to read, but it should at least be at a level that she *can* read (if, maybe, with a tiny bit of help every few words). If it's really above her reading level, set it aside for a while and focus on copywork that's within range of her instructional reading level.

[MerryAtHope]

I agree with shortening the copywork, but also I would not have her copy anything for which she does not already understand how the phonograms and syllables work. If she doesn't, she will be likely to copy letter by letter, rather than thinking through how the sounds work and how to chunk syllables, and this can undermine what she is learning in spelling. That it's taking so much longer than dictation in her AAS does make me wonder if the words are too difficult at this point.

 

Merry :-)

[PeterPan]

Like others have said, first try to figure out what the problem is - too much copywork, vision problems, easily distractible, etc. We had a problem with copywork, and here's what worked for us.

 

For my DD, copy work has always been an issue because she is a dawdler. She is perfectly capable, but she starts staring off into space, picking at her pencil lead, etc.

 

Don't know if you've already done the eval for this, but that can be ADD.

[LolaT]

Wow, thank you for all the feedback. To clarify some things I didn't mention before --

 

She'll be 7 in Oct.; we're about half-way through first grade.

 

She can read the sentences well. (She's finished OPTGR and reads at about 2nd-3rd grade level).

 

She has learned to form all the letters with a writing program (D'Naelian). She does make implusive mistakes forming the letters now that she doesn't have to think about them; sometimes crossing an "l", making an "a" instead of an "o", etc. but she always catches herself right away.

 

Her vision has been checked by a reg. test and is OK. From a personal opinion, I don't think it's a problem. Yesterday, we were doing Highlight's Top Secret Adventure. She had to find the suspects on a page full of tiny people and found them extremely quickly before I was even done reading the instructions. But this is something I would have to follow up on the recommendations to be eval. by a developmental optometrist before I could rule this out.

 

We're doing the latest vs. of WWE1 and FFL2 (just started). We don't do more than one copywork per day which is 1-2 sentences. I always sit next to her and try to guide/encourage her along. At one point, I told her not to worry about her penmanship and just go as fast as she could. This worked that day and I've seen her say this to herself to self-motivate a few times. But anxiety over forming neat letters didn't seem to be the reason holding her back. I've tried offering small rewards for completing it in two, five or ten minutes, but this hasn't yielded consistent success either. We took a two week break. This didn't help either.

 

I am really wanting to understand why she's having trouble with this as I don't see a reason for it, more so than wanting to cut back because whatever the issue is, I want to see if there's something I can do to help her. She does get very distracted when she's about to do copywork, with her nose itching, her seat, she has to take a potty break, she gets hungry, she suddenly hates pencils, anything. It's just hard to understand why she doesn't have these issues when I dictate sentences to her for spelling! (She also does quite well in spelling). If she had problems writing in both these areas, that would make more sense.

 

Today, she did WWE1 W25 D1 Copywork. She was about to pick the short sentence and said she was just going to write fast and not worry about the letters. I told her, that was OK, but if she picked the short sentence, she should try to make nice letters and if she picked the longer sentence she could just go fast. She picked the long one so she could go fast and she did OK. But it's just not very consistent. Tomorrow she might just outright refuse to do any copywork like earlier this week.

 

So, I've picked up that I need to get her vision tested. In the mean time, should I just dictate the words to her when she can't get going?

 

And I just read that last msg. Yes, I'm having her eval for ADHD next week.

[PeterPan]

Yes, impulsivity goes with ADD/ADHD. She's wigging out before the sessions, without really thinking about it, because she's trying to tell you it's too hard. It might be informative for you to try other types of near/far focusing and see what happens. For instance write it on a whiteboard several feet away and then have her copy that onto her paper. Or have her go from paper onto the chalkboard. Change the motor from fine motor to gross motor and see what happens. Change the font size.

 

As far as the eyes, there are a lot of facets to function. That activity book you mentioned is using their scanning and peripheral vision. However copywork is different. The copywork requires them to focus on one thing, hold it in their memory (visualization), and then go to paper, focus on something smaller, and write. So ANY glitches you have in there are going to affect it. ADD/ADHD usually has a working memory component, and that would definitely affect it. Some of the kids will also have sensory or dyspraxia issues. I would *not* blow off the mistakes in the writing. To me that's motor control symptoms. The vision and just focusing going between the two locations and font sizes can be an issue.

 

So you're talking a lot of layers there, any or all of which can have issues. Just sort it out. The number 1 thing people are saying here is DON'T blow it off as personality. Let's just say I have a little too much hindsite on that.

[MerryAtHope]

Also (in addition to considering ADD and vision processing issues--which is not at all the same as what they check for at a regular vision check-up--look at www.covd.org), keep in mind that knowing how to READ words and knowing how to WRITE them is not the same thing. If the phonograms used are above what she has learned in AAS, then it may be very difficult for her to hold these in her memory. She may not be thinking about how the letters work together as a team to form sounds, but may instead be having to memorize them as pictures or as a string of letters the way one would memorize a phone number--which is not a very efficient way to copy something, requires much more looking back to the paper and so on. I would limit copywork to things that are similar to rules/phonograms she has learned to this point in AAS, and just short bits--I wouldn't let it take 30 minutes. Can you sit by her and see if she is getting distracted or having trouble staying on task? That might help you know a bit of what's going on.

 

HTH some! Merry :-)

[LolaT]

If the phonograms used are above what she has learned in AAS, then it may be very difficult for her to hold these in her memory. She may not be thinking about how the letters work together as a team to form sounds, but may instead be having to memorize them as pictures or as a string of letters the way one would memorize a phone number--

 

Wow, that does sound very hard. And all the layers of issues affecting this task is a lot to think about.

 

She did well again today. It took about 7-10 min. She picked the longer sentence in order to use the "go fast and don't worry about the handwriting" method. She made several mistakes forming the letters with the "go fast" method, all of which she caught and fixed right away. She asked if she had got done in 2 min.

 

I feel OK, as long as she's trying. I just get panicky when she refuses or sits in front of it endelessly getting nothing done. I will wait and see what happens after the ADHD eval. and if medication is recommended, if it improves her attention on the task or if there are still motor issues to blame and if a dev. eye exam is indicated. Thank you so much for the support!

[LolaT]

Just thought I'd update this -- we have been trying out diff. meds for ADHD. DD's copywork has improved. The time has improved. It's not really fast but it's reasonable. Even though this is no llonger an issue, now that we have started up with AAS again (Level 3) which utilizes dictation, and WWE 2 using dictation, she has told me she prefers dictation to copywork! I'm just relieved this problem seems to have past as the meds have probably helped some and her confidence in writing is slowly improving. Thank you for the support.

[PeterPan]

Since she's still shying away from the copywork, I'd get her eyes checked. That's one of the most blatant areas for eye problems to show up. COVD is where you find a developmental optometrist.

[brett_ashley]

honest question: What is the point of copywork if not penmanship? Is there something else at play?

[PeterPan]

honest question: What is the point of copywork if not penmanship? Is there something else at play?

 

It's a necessary life skill in order to be able take notes off boards, copy written information, etc. There can be a number of things that affect it, but one of them is when the eyes have difficulty changing focus between the two locations. So they might be fine when focusing on one thing (distant or far) but when they go back and forth they tire too quickly or just can't do it. That's when you need the developmental optometrist evaluation. They can quantify that.

[zenjenn]

It's a necessary life skill in order to be able take notes off boards, copy written information, etc. There can be a number of things that affect it, but one of them is when the eyes have difficulty changing focus between the two locations. So they might be fine when focusing on one thing (distant or far) but when they go back and forth they tire too quickly or just can't do it. That's when you need the developmental optometrist evaluation. They can quantify that.

 

Well with WWE, the copywork is also a stepping stone to developing writing skills. The copywork is done in conjunction with listening, analysis, and verbalizing main ideas and summaries. 1) Somebody else's writing is studied and the student practices verbally reiterating main ideas in complete sentences 2) The student composes original thoughts and watches an adult write them down 3) The student copies original thoughts that someone else wrote down 4) The student writes somebody else's narrated thoughts, as well as previously narrated original summaries and 5) eventually, the student is generating and properly writing down their own, coherent composition.

 

WWE1 is VERY simple. I can't imagine how it would take 30 minutes to do WWE1 copywork. Are you sitting there watching her do it? (with WWE, you are supposed to). If you are using a workbook, did you notice the author advises the child choose ONE of the sentences provided, based on the child's writing ability?

 

There is usually a short sentence and a long sentence. Choose the short sentence if that is what is appropriate for her ability level.

 

If she is struggling with letter formation, I'd suggest shelving all copywork for now and do something like Handwriting Without Tears manuscript for a couple months until she develops competence. While a learning disability or something along those lines is an option, it is also possible she may just be a child who requires formal instruction in mechanically how to write before you start doing copywork. If this is the case, at age 6, even a few weeks of daily manuscript instruction should be enough to bring her up to speed to do the shorter copywork selections from WWE1 in a reasonable amount of time.

Edited September 28, 2011 by zenjenn

[brett_ashley]

makes sense! thanks.

[FO4UR]

:iagree:Get her eyes *completely* checked out.

 

 

In the meantime, you could try using a cursor to uncover only part of the copywork at a time. If she is good at dictation, teach her to read "The blue bird flew through the air" as "The blue bird"....(take a mental picture of the words/spelling...close your eyes and visualize it...dictate it back to herself and write)...."flew through"...(same process)...."the air."...(same process).

 

 

There is something keeping this from being a natural step for her. My money is on the eyes. If it is her eyes, the problems are going to continue beyond copywork, and you'll regret not taking care of it now. If it isn't her eyes, you need to rule it out so you can dig deeper.