Christian Content: Am I the only one who can't deal with "The Excellent Wife"?

[Tammyla]

This type of book just isn't my cup of tea, and hubby & I've managed to be happily married for twenty+ years.

[Kelli in TN]

 

 

 

For what it's worth -- there is one author whose tone makes me ill, and that is Michael Pearl. I can get through most of his child rearing material now that he's calmed down a little (he's a grandpa now), but he's got to be the most arrogant teacher! My husband and I were watching his marriage videos. In the one geared for the women, men were asked what their wives could do to make their marriage better. This portion wnet smoothly. When women were asked what their husbands could do to make their marriage better, one woman said something about fixing the squeaky door (wow -- huge request, right) and other similar things. Michael began railing the women for being manipulative, ungratetul and so on. Those videos went out of the house immediately. It was okay for a man to expect his wife to be sexier, but it wasn't okay for woman to expect her man to actually fix something. ugh

 

;)

 

NO WAY!!!!

 

He does that on the video? Because when he did that live and in person in my former church I was just SURE it was unique to us. It was horrible. You could see women all over the church with their heads down as he ripped them apart for the desires of their hearts. I sat there in horrible dread of the moment he was going to read mine. He did, and he said something snarky and of course my husband knew which one was mine and he was laughing at me on the way home.

 

It was horrible, horrible, horrible. I cannot even tell you how much that man's seminar hurt me. I think he is a horrible, horrible person.

[*anj*]

 

It was horrible, horrible, horrible. I cannot even tell you how much that man's seminar hurt me. I think he is a horrible, horrible person.

I was thinking you'd mention that. When I read the previous post I almost mentioned that I know someone here who heard him do that in person. I'm glad that you replied.

[Tweed]

I will definitely skip it. I was given Feminine Appeal about a year ago to read, and it shook my faith to it’s very roots, and if this is the best of the lot.....

 

After reading Feminine Appeal I really questioned my faith, and I couldn’t help wondering after reading the book why any woman would come to the Christian faith---ever. I found her tone so obnoxious and I’m from Jersey. You have to be really obnoxious for me to notice. ;)

[Nestof3]

No way, Kelli!

 

I found some nuggets in his child training books -- not all of it, of course, but I rarely read a book I accept completely, if you know what I mean. I really like his emphasis on tying strings between you and your children. I also like his emphasis on having fun with your kids and showing them you enjoy them. Just like people in real life -- we have to sift through the bad sometimes, but there's often something we can learn from them.

 

But, his comments on the marriage videos were so offensive to me that I could bear no more. YUCK! I mean, why take the time to find out what women want if you're just going to demean them for answering.

[percytruffle]

It seems I'm the only person who actually likes this book, but it really is full of scripture and is one of the only books of its kind that I've read (dealing with submission) that "allows" a woman to rebuke her husband.

 

No, you aren't the only one who likes her book. It made a real impact on me and as I read it I fell in love more and more with dh. While I too think the Bible is of course the very best place to turn, I appreciated Martha Peace's interpretation. I may not have agreed with all she had to say, but it made me think hard and made me take a good look at my own heart and whether it was in the right place. When I found it in the library of a church the dc went to for hs co-op and took it home to read it, it was like finding a hidden gem.

[Colleen in NS]

I found her tone so obnoxious and I’m from Jersey. You have to be really obnoxious for me to notice. ;)

 

ROTFL!!!!! I lived in NJ for a few years, and still have friends there. I miss the attitude sometimes! :)

[Colleen in NS]

Now, if a woman is opposed to the notion of submission at all, she is not ready for this book, to be sure, eventhough the scripture is clear about it. She should probably spend more time getting to know her Bible better.

 

I am understanding from the above quote that the idea is that a woman should get to know the Bible better, so that she will embrace the notion of submission. If I am understanding the quote's intent correctly, I disagree with the idea.

 

I think the Bible has be studied in historical context, so that eternal principles can be differentiated from temporary/cultural/situational instructions.

 

I also think that just because a book has Scripture in it to illustrate an author's opinion, it doesn't mean that that author's opinion is what was actually being communicated by the author of the Bible book. I think it is just Scripture being used to back up someone's opinion.

 

I have been a Christian for a long time. As a teen and young adult in the 80s, I went to a church that taught extensively about submission. I acquired the mentality from those older women that I needed to act in certain ways in order to be a good Christian, and later, to be a good Christian wife.

 

This mentality has come up in my mind (and actions) at various times in the 14 years I've been married.

 

My dh hates it when it does.

 

He hates that I beat myself up over not being a good enough Christian wife according to someone else's standards.

 

I haven't read the book being discussed here, and probably won't based on the posts I've read here. But I will throw out a couple of other titles in case anyone is interested. One is by Loren Cunningham and David Joel Hamilton called Why Not Women? A Fresh Look at Scripture on Women in Missions, Ministry, and Leadership. I met Loren several times when I was in Youth With A Mission and he is the most humble man I've ever met. He meets thousands of people every year, and yet he somehow manages to make each person feel special and worthy of dignity. The other book is by John Stackhouse and it's something like Finally Feminist (I can't remember the subtitle). I read about this book on SWB's blog last year, and ordered in to my library. Some of it went over my head, but I liked it and would probably read it again to dig more out of it. And, I got to meet John Stackhouse just a few months after reading his book! He came to a local church here and did a weekend conference on evangelism - I went and was totally impressed by his gentle manner and intelligent subject matter. I introduced myself later, and he, like Loren, was very personable. It's authors like that who reflect more of God's character to me, not the ones who I perceive to be telling me how I should live according to their interpretations of Scripture.

[Colleen in NS]

NO WAY!!!!

 

He does that on the video? Because when he did that live and in person in my former church I was just SURE it was unique to us. It was horrible. You could see women all over the church with their heads down as he ripped them apart for the desires of their hearts. I sat there in horrible dread of the moment he was going to read mine. He did, and he said something snarky and of course my husband knew which one was mine and he was laughing at me on the way home.

 

It was horrible, horrible, horrible. I cannot even tell you how much that man's seminar hurt me. I think he is a horrible, horrible person.

 

(((((((((((Kelli in TN))))))))))) I'd have been crawling under the pew.

[Nestof3]

I am understanding from the above quote that the idea is that a woman should get to know the Bible better, so that she will embrace the notion of submission. If I am understanding the quote's intent correctly, I disagree with the idea.

 

I think the Bible has be studied in historical context, so that eternal principles can be differentiated from temporary/cultural/situational instructions.

 

 

Yes, that IS what I was saying.

 

Well, then you have to chalk Paul's admonition to husbands to love their wives like Christ loved the church and gave himself up for it as just cultural as well. I'm not sure I understand.

 

And, I never beat myself up over submission issues -- I'm sorry you have.

[Colleen in NS]

I'm not sure I understand.

 

And, I never beat myself up over submission issues -- I'm sorry you have.

 

Well, I definitely don't have it all together as far as studying the Bible in historical context - I'm just starting that journey after years of reading it "devotionally" (that's the best word I can think of to describe it). I was just trying to say that I think it's important to study the whole thing in its various contexts, to come up with one's own conclusions about how to apply the Bible to one's own life, rather than rely on someone else's opinion and interpretation.

 

I haven't beaten myself up over submission issues, I have beaten myself up about not living up to others' opinions of these issues.

[Nestof3]

Colleen,

 

I do want to say that I think you are right, that there are some cultural elements in the Bible that I take a stance are cultural and not meant for me today, so I can see where you are coming from on this.

 

I think there are many healthy marriages where submission is never an issue. My brother and his wife do not prefess to be Christians. They have an apparently fabulous marriage. I think in healthy marriages, submission is rarely something that even needs to be focused on, just as if a man has to be convinced by scripture to love his wife, there are probably larger problems at hand, if that makes any sense. My idea of submission is more of a deference -- preferring one another sort of thing -- and that's easy to do for both parties when love is present. Does that make sense?

[runningirl71]

The author's name eludes me right this moment! My husband and I both read this book and thought there were some valid points made. I like books that talk more about husband/wife relationships rather than focusing on just the wife or just the husband. If your looking for a marriage book, this would be a good read, imo.

 

I knew the author of the book being talked about in this thread, and to be honest, I won't read it.

[Nestof3]

Angie,

 

I'm going to look into this one. Thanks! :001_smile:

[runningirl71]

Angie,

 

I'm going to look into this one. Thanks! :001_smile:

 

You're welcome! The authors name is: Emerson Eggerichs. It is really an uncommon name and I can never remember it! :)

[Heather in Neverland]

Have you tried Captivating ? It felt very freeing to me.

 

I LOVED Captivating!!! What a great book!

[babybryte]

I just wanted to put in a vote FOR The Excellent Wife. :) I don't really understand why just the title would put people off from reading it. :confused: Anyway, thanks for the other book recommendations! I will check them out, too...

 

 

 

 

Jacquelyn

[6packofun]

strong opinios on Biblical submission and femininity, and am pretty conservative. But I never finished The Excellent Wife either.

 

I have heard of Feminine Appeal and it's on my wish list.

 

I will say that since I have put the content of The Excellent Wife into practice, my marriage is almost perfect.

 

:tongue_smilie:

[Old Dominion Heather]

I'm very cautious of Christian how-to books because of it.

 

I just want to say how much I agree with Jessica. You have to be wary of anyone who claims to be speaking for God; ie: "the Christian way to do it".

[Nestof3]

I just want to say how much I agree with Jessica. You have to be wary of anyone who claims to be speaking for God; ie: "the Christian way to do it".

 

I thought that's what pastors do every Sunday -- at least, I've never seen one who JUST read the Bible and said nothing else. I mean, who would pay for that? Don't all teachers offer interpretations?

[Colleen in NS]

My idea of submission is more of a deference -- preferring one another sort of thing -- and that's easy to do for both parties when love is present. Does that make sense?

 

That changes what I thought you meant. (I didn't think to ask you what you meant by "submission" in the first place :rolleyes: - sorry about that). I just wouldn't call it submission (negative connotation to me based on what I've seen and heard taught in American Christian circles in the past). I'd call it mutual love and respect and I think it's BOTH partners' responsibility to figure it out how to work these out between them.

 

The Loren Cunningham book I mentioned goes quite in depth into these topics - talking about historical Biblical context, original Biblical writing structure, Biblical author's intent, original word meanings. Loren's co-author was the Bible expert of the book. I was fascinated by it.

 

I need to stop here because I haven't read the book the OP mentioned and I don't want to go any further off topic! :)

[Geo]

Never read that one, but I do struggle with the same perceptions with the author of "Created To Be His Helpmeet".

I agree with the title and general viewpoint...she just doesn't seem to think very well of women, especially

"weaker" women who struggle with it. Compassion and mercy seem to be a little lower down on the list of prioroties.

 

Geo

[gail]

Well! I was thinking of reading this book. Now, I won't. So many good books out there, so little time. No sense in wasting any on this one.

[Rose in BC]

And then phoned my friend and told her she had to read it so I could get her unadulterated opinion of it (I may already be tainted after reading the reviews here). :001_smile:

[Cindy in AR]

I have only read bits. My sister has read the whole thing. The with me is that I know what it's going to say and I can't seem to live up to it, so why read it? I need a Bible study that draws me closer to God, like Kay Arthur, and not a book that tells about the externals and how we need to conform. If I was was closer to God and cared more about him then this stuff would fall into place. I feel the same way about the parenting books. I do want to know how to instill character into my children, even when I am not modeling it. Help!

 

Cindy

[Sherri in MI]

some good biblical points. She gives a wife recourse for a husband who is sinning (though I don't recall her defining "sin"), which was refreshing. While I agree with what she said about that, very few churches will operate the way they are supposed to in that regard, if a wife has to turn to the church for help. I've attended very strong, biblical (but not legalistic) churches and they would not deal with "sin" in marriages, sometimes even adultery. A woman we know found out her husband was having an affair and he had contracted an std, so she took the kids and left. She was condemned for it by our elders and condemned for not being willing to return and "talk" with her dh and the elders (the dh was manipulative and lying). These were all godly men I respect and I know they were trying to do what they thought was right, but they did not handle the situation well. Months and months later, they realized what a liar this man was.

 

I know another mature woman who remarried in her 50's whose husband demanded that she give him her paycheck, pay half of rent, utilities, etc. and wanted to put the rest of the money in HIS retirement account with no provision for her - no retirement account for her, the house was his and would go to his son upon his death. He also verbally threatened to kill her and did physically threaten her once. She had no evidence or proof and her husband denied it all so when she went to her pastor, he was completely unsupportive. They separated, counseling was unsuccessful, they eventually divorced.

 

On the plus side, there was a case of a woman who was physically abused by her husband and the church was very supportive. The husband was reported to the police and men in the church held him accountable and discipled him and the couple got back together.

 

Anyway, Martha Peace gives biblical advice in regard to a dh who is sinning, but good luck finding a church that will operate biblically when it comes to it. I'm not bitter, really. I've just observed a lot over the years.

 

About the tone, I struggled with it too. It's just her style I guess. One thing I noticed in her testimony in the intro, is that she says she was a radical feminist before becoming a Christian. I have noticed that I often struggle with the "style" of such women when I meet them as Christians, no offense intended to anyone who was. I think that maybe they bring that same radical intensity to their communication as a Christian, and I personally don't respond well to that. I find it too forceful or agressive or overwhelming.

 

Dawn, I can so relate to some of the things you said: while sometimes I need to vent or "be understood", usually when I complain, I am seeking a solution also. And when it comes to making decisions, my hubby is much more emotional than I am, though I am emotional in other ways.

 

I struggle with many marriage books, just because they make generalities about the genders that don't seem to apply to my marriage and it gets so frustrating.

 

I even find the Love and Respect book annoying, but I won't go into that.

 

And no, I am not a rebellious, unsubmissive wife. I have been a compliant, conservative, authority respecting woman most of my life. I've just known a lot of people in difficult marriages (emotional abuse, verbal abuse, physical abuse, neglect (dh won't work or can't keep a job), dh being irresponsible with money to the detriment of the family, drug abuse, alcohol abuse, spouses with serious emotional problems) and none of the Christian books seem to address these issues. Yet they are very common problems in our churches. I have over the years become aware of this, so it bothers me to read a book that says, "respect your husband and he will love you", when I know the woman's husband is not in an emotional place to respond that way. I don't know what to recommend to these women.

 

I agree Dawn, "what's good for the goose is good for the gander". My hubby has The Exemplary Husband and it looks like an excellent book. My dh knew Stuart Scott.

 

Blessings,

Sherri

[Rosy]

My personal feeling is that this book is one of those that is best used in a small group Bible study--where you're able to discuss the principles and how to put them into practice. I did it this way and enjoyed it. The tone came across sort of know-it-all to me and it wasn't something I would ever read for enjoyment, but I thought the content was good.

 

I've read some great books in the same vein by Elizabeth George. I have friends who have read "that" book and recommended it, I don't think it's for me though. :)

[Guest Shanna]

Dawn,

 

You are not alone. I really enjoy it also. I have the companion and really like it.

 

Right now though I am reading through Passionate Housewives. I am really enjoying it.