SWB's advice about teaching rewriting from an outline: can you help me?

[Colleen in NS]

So I've been following SWB's advice in her three writing audios, and have been using WWE (briefly with ds when he was in gr. 5, and mostly all of it with dd). So far, everything has pretty much worked out the way she said it would. And her logic stage outlining instructions in the 2009 WTM were a Godsend to me - ds found it MUCH easier to understand how to outline someone else's writing using these instructions.

 

And so, as ds's outlining came along, I also introduced this past year (grade 7) rewriting a composition from these outlines. I remember reading or hearing, a long time ago (maybe in the old Writing Without Fear audio? I can't remember), that after a student rewrites (without looking back at the original material) from an outline of someone else's material , the student should then compare his rewrite to the original material. I understood that the purpose was for the student to see how his sentences compared to the original, and if he included the information that the original author had written. In other words, it was to be like copywork. Not sure if I understood that correctly, but it's what I've understood all this time, because it made sense to me.

 

So, anyway, I've been doing that with ds for many months now, and it's been going OK. He makes great outlines; lays the info. out logically in them. And for awhile when he did rewrite from them, I'd have him compare to the original material. He'd then see where he'd left out information, or where he'd greatly shortened up information that was longer in the original. But now I'm not sure what to do. I do give him choice in picking material to outline, so that the material interests him. But I'm finding that when he rewrites from the outline, that even though he writes complete sentence outlines, his resulting compositions come out with rather short paragraphs. I've told him that it's not like narration - the goal is not to summarize each outline section - the goal is to take all those sentences and make a nice-sounding paragraph.

 

Oh, and we use R&S for grammar, and we do go through most of the writing lessons - the creative writing lessons aren't given much attention, but we do go through the lessons such as sentence style, effective sentences, etc.. Anything to do with composition or paragraph writing (I keep thinking I should have a checklist of principles from these lessons, but I did that a couple of years ago and it got too stilted - it made writing his previous more basic narrations frustrating for him).

 

So anyway, I'm just not really sure how to help him flesh out these paragraphs a little more (or if I am even supposed to at this point); how to help him take some more interest in what he's writing so that the paragraphs become more interesting; how to not think that he has to summarize the outline sections. He *will* dig out a thesaurus every so often to use more interesting words. I'm not anxious about it - he technically has another whole year to work on this - really no new writing skills, that I know of from SWB's teachings, to teach him next year - before I start introducing him to rhetoric study. And I'm not pressing him to come up with better paragraphs, because he'd need something concrete to go by in order to do that, and I'm not sure what that is now. He has definitely come a VERY LONG way from the grade 4 boy who hated writing a couple of sentences for a narration (well, learning to type helped, lol). His analytical skills are great in taking other paragraphs apart.

 

What am I trying to ask.....I'm not looking for a new program - I'm just looking for some advice on what to work on over the next year, in order to help him. Maybe I should just keep plugging along, but I don't want it to become boring for him. Or maybe I should just look at it as a year to practice these skills that he has already learned, and in the meantime his mind will dig deeper into the content area he is writing about? And maybe I should rest in the knowledge that the year after he will be introduced to rhetoric study (as laid out in WTM)....will this help him with fleshing out his paragraphs? I know R&S 8 next year will talk more about transitioning between paragraphs and such, but won't the rhetoric study make this type of thing more interesting? Should I count grade 8 as a bonus practice year for him, since he caught on to the basic skills pretty easily during grades 5-7?

 

Thanks for any help you can give.

Edited June 8, 2011 by Colleen in NS

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

I can't help you Colleen, but I'm in awe of what you're doing with your kids.

 

[Capt_Uhura]

I think I read that SWB intends for WWS to cover grades 5-7. I do find that WWE and WWS progress a bit faster/begin earlier w/ some skills than what SWB outlines in WTM or in the audios. Perhaps so that folks can slow it down if necessary but it's all there for folks who want to forge ahead.

 

WWS might be just what you need. We are under a gag order regarding WWS until it's released which is why no one has been discussing details of it. I think WWS goes nicely after WWE and I can see how the skills learned would be worked on over several years as you start adding in transitions between paragraphs etc.

[Colleen in NS]

I think I read that SWB intends for WWS to cover grades 5-7.

 

WWS might be just what you need.

 

I'm not so sure...the amazon description says it's "level 1," the first of four upcoming levels.

 

The description of it looks good, and I will certainly have a look at it when it comes out, because it looks like I will have missed teaching some things. But I'm sure the rest of the levels will come out way too late for my son. That's why I need help now with teaching rewriting.

 

p.s. I've told my kids that if they home-educate their kids, they should use all of SWB's and JW's grammar and writing materials, lol! They will probably all be completed by then, and will be MUCH more interesting and easy to use than R&S and muddling my way through pieced-together resources! :D

Edited June 7, 2011 by Colleen in NS

[amyco]

The re-writing from outlines has always been a mystery to me...what is the purpose, what is the final product supposed to look like, etc. How do we know if they are doing a "good job" etc. I was hoping that WWS would clear that up.

 

Our experience has been that the re-writes are always shorter than the original, which I think is to be expected. As long as the info is there and there is good sentence variety and all the other things they talk about in R&S grammar, I'm happy with it. They do end up reading like narrations, though...I agree.

[Cleopatra]

Hi Colleen,

 

We use Classical Writing and they have a few techniques you could try.

 

First of all, with each model/lesson my dd completes, I always get her working towards making her re-write better than the model (à la Benjamin Franklin :001_smile:), by focussing on using higher level vocabulary and more complex sentence structure. Her writing is not always superior, and I don't expect it to be at her level, but that is our goal.

 

CW also has the student identify essentials and accidentals of a given model. This makes the main information (essentials) stand out, but also allows the student to easily identify what is "extra" (accidental) so they can see what "extras" the writer used and how they contributed to give the model depth and make it more interesting.

 

Another exercise we use is condensing and expanding paragraphs. The student is given a paragraph and then has to either remove the modifiers, prepositional phrases, etc. and re-write it with just bare-bones information, or they have to add extra modifiers, prepositional phrases, etc. to expand the paragraph as much as possible. I've found this very helpful.

 

Since it sounds like you're happy with your ds's basic format, you might try some of the above exercises with part of his work, after he's done a re-write. If you simply use a paragraph or two, he could work on the skills without being overwhelmed by the content.

 

Oh yes, another thought ....... you could take a couple of weeks and study good writers; the structure of their paragraphs, how they transition from one paragraph to the next, etc. In certain C.S. Lewis books, he is a master of linking his thoughts and paragraphs together. When reading his works, I often get lost in the structure of his work and completely forget what I'm reading about.:D There is also a compilation of E.B. White's essays http://www.amazon.ca/Essays-B-White-B/dp/0060932236/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1307425414&sr=8-1 and I think Mortimer J. Adler has a book which includes some of his essays as well.

 

HTH a little! I'm interested to see what others recommend! :001_smile:

[Capt_Uhura]

I'm not so sure...the amazon description says it's "level 1," the first of four upcoming levels.

 

 

Interesting! Darn, you're right, probably my oldest DS will be just ahead of the publication dates.

 

I guess I have to ask what is the purpose of outlining. If I'm outlining for note taking, I expect the product to be shorter than the original and contain just the important facts. If I'm outlining to understand how good writers structure their thoughts and then practice transition skills, time order words, strong adjectives/adverbs, then I would expect a different product.

[Capt_Uhura]

Cleopatra - what levels of CW are you discussing?

[1Togo]

Adding a few thoughts and questions about the outlining to writing sequence. Since the non-fiction sources often used for outlining are serviceable rather than inspiring; i.e. textbooks and/or DK, Usborne, how does the student learn about powerful writing by outlining the source? In addition, if the purpose of writing an outline is getting to the nuts and bolts of the source; i.e. the main idea and supporting facts, how can you expect the student to flesh out his writing with much more than what he has read? For instance, if he outlines a piece on the Mayflower Compact, and it is the only thing he has read about about that topic, fleshing out his sentences with ideas will be difficult. He won't know anything about the Mayflower Compact except what he gleans from the source. So, I primarily see outlining non-fiction sources as a study skill. However, outlining to writing works well if the source is a narrative and the student is taught expansion techniques; i.e. dialogue and other figures of description, because he can embellish the story. A short outline of an Aesop fable can easily become a one-page story. Also, I assume that WWS will address this, but where in the outlining to writing sequence does the student learn to interact with ideas because interacting with ideas is necessary for good writing. By interacting with ideas, I mean analogy, cause, comparison/contrast, example, paraphrase, etc.

Edited June 7, 2011 by 1Togo

[Colleen in NS]

Just quickly popping in to add to this one...

 

Since the non-fiction sources often used for outlining are serviceable rather than inspiring; i.e. textbooks and/or DK, Usborne, how does the student learn about powerful writing by outlining the source?

 

That's part of why I'm asking all this in the first place - we *do* use inspiring writing to outline from, because I understood that to be the purpose - imitate good writing. I don't use textbooks or encyclopedias for outlining.

 

In addition, if the purpose of writing an outline is getting to the nuts and bolts of the source; i.e. the main idea and supporting facts, how can you expect the student to flesh out his writing with much more than what he has read?

 

That's what I'm not sure of...am I supposed to be expecting more, or is ds on track right now? Will he be learning more fleshing out techniques in rhetoric study (I think so, but I'm not positive)?

 

For instance, if he outlines a piece on the Mayflower Compact, and it is the only thing he has read about about that topic, fleshing out his sentences with ideas will be difficult. He won't know anything about the Mayflower Compact except what he gleans from the source.

 

Yes, this makes sense. Then I'm wondering why SWB recommends the sequence she recommends. It makes sense to me, but now that ds can do what she talks about, should I just have him spend the next year on doing this? If someone gives me a good reason to do so, I have no problem doing that. But I can't help but wonder if I'm missing something, esp. since seeing the WWS samples. I also remember seeing SWB write somewhere that progym exercises could be introduced to kids younger than high school age - yet none of that is included in her writing lectures, at least not that I remember. Maybe I should have a look at some progym programs this coming weekend at a curric. fair, so I can see what I might be missing. Or have a look at the rhetoric materials I have on my bookshelves. I just didn't want to introduce more difficult material too early.

 

However, outlining to writing works well if the source is a narrative and the student is taught expansion techniques; i.e. dialogue and other figures of description, because he can embellish the story.

 

This is the kind of thing I assumed would be taught in the WTM rec'd. rhetoric study. Which we weren't planning to begin until grade 9, lol!

 

where in the outlining to writing sequence does the student learn to interact with ideas because interacting with ideas is necessary for good writing. By interacting with ideas, I mean analogy, cause, comparison/contrast, example, paraphrase, etc.

 

Again, I assumed it would be in the rec'd. rhetoric study. I dunno, maybe my son might be almost ready to start rhetoric study? But I don't want to push him into something he's not ready for....I don't know how I would know he was ready.

 

I just want to know if I'm on the right track or not, cuz I feel like I'm missing something! But maybe next year should just be a year of practicing what he already knows how to do....I just don't know.

 

(I'll answer other posters later - thank you for contributing!)

[Capt_Uhura]

I think SWB alluded to this in her new writing lectures. I know she's expanded upon the middle grade writing lecture which she will be giving at Valley Forge. She probably gave it at the Texas convention last week.

 

Colleen - I will certainly take notes on your questions and have them ready for SWB at the Valley Forge conference.

 

I do think that we are ahead of SWB's writing curriculum unfortunately. She is not planning on her rhetoric curriculum until 2022! :lol:

[1Togo]

Colleen,

 

In the past, SWB recommended Kingfisher and outlining from a spine, which we dropped because it was dull for our children. For this same reason, we made short work of IEW's Units 1 and 2 which also teach outlining and writing from an outline. I did teach our children how to outline, but outlining selected pages lacked purpose unless our children read the entire book or the work was connected to a specific assignment. Since no one wanted to keep outlining and rewriting the work of another writer, and I didn't want to continue searching for sources, everyone was glad to move on. Even though it sounds as if you search for non-fiction books related to your children's studies and select passages/pages to generate interest in the work, what additional skills do you plan to teach your student from the outline to writing sequence? If your son knows how to outline and write from an outline per SWB's suggestions, I wouldn't spend another year on it. Incorporate an occasional outline to writing assignment as part of history or science if you feel your child needs the review, but there are many writing skills and techniques to practice before studying rhetoric.

 

Btw, interacting with ideas through analogy, cause, comparison/contrast, etc. doesn't need to be put on hold until rhetoric. I don't know about CW, but the progym as taught in CC introduces this at the third level, and the expectations are concrete so the student understands what to do as he works through a muli-paragraph essay. Btw, the first two levels of CC, which are used in elementary school, cover outlining, writing from an outline, figures of description, basic lit elements, rewriting a narrative, writing through reduction; i.e. precis writing, etc.

Edited June 7, 2011 by 1Togo

[angela in ohio]

I know you're not looking for a program (or I'd tell you how we learned this in IEW ;),) but how about a few books? The Art of Styling Sentences and (a section of) The Lively Art of Writing both help combat that "get it said in as few words as possible" mode.

 

When we compare re-writes to the original work, we don't look so much to content. I want them to see how more experienced authors would have said things better than they did. Then I want them to internalize those techniques to stretch their own writing. I am having them compare style much more than making sure they got all of the content.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

One observation is that I'm not sure that wws is grade five so much as level five. I know that wwe 2 is quite a challenge for my almost a fourth grader (mostly because of where he is not because it is TOO hard). I was also counseled to use FLL 3 with him rather than skipping to FLL 4.

[Colleen in NS]

I think SWB alluded to this in her new writing lectures. I know she's expanded upon the middle grade writing lecture which she will be giving at Valley Forge. She probably gave it at the Texas convention last week.

 

Ah, I didn't know she'd expanded on the middle grade lecture....I wonder if that will be recorded and made available.

 

Colleen - I will certainly take notes on your questions and have them ready for SWB at the Valley Forge conference.

 

Thank you. I SO wish I could be there. But it's not possible this time.

 

I do think that we are ahead of SWB's writing curriculum unfortunately. She is not planning on her rhetoric curriculum until 2022! :lol:

 

Hope it's ready for my grandchildren! :lol:

 

Even though it sounds as if you search for non-fiction books related to your children's studies and select passages/pages to generate interest in the work, what additional skills do you plan to teach your student from the outline to writing sequence?

 

Good question, and I don't know! I've done what Angela in Ohio talked about below in her second paragraph, but haven't specifically taught other skills. I just figured that if I went along in this sequence, the skills my kids would need to learn would present themselves through the outline/rewrite process, in R&S grammar and writing, and in the eventual rhetoric study (as per WTM). It hasn't steered me wrong yet, and I've been able to figure things out along the way, but I'm a little stumped now.

 

If your son knows how to outline and write from an outline per SWB's suggestions, I wouldn't spend another year on it. Incorporate an occasional outline to writing assignment as part of history or science if you feel your child needs the review, but there are many writing skills and techniques to practice before studying rhetoric.

 

Such as....(not being sarcastic - I really don't know - as I said, I figured the WTM rec'd. rhetoric study would introduce further skills, but now you seem to be saying there are skills to be learned *before* studying rhetoric? I've got a feeling I'll be digging into my rhetoric books again as this thread progresses.)

 

Btw, interacting with ideas through analogy, cause, comparison/contrast, etc. doesn't need to be put on hold until rhetoric. I don't know about CW, but the progym as taught in CC introduces this at the third level, and the expectations are concrete so the student understands what to do as he works through a muli-paragraph essay. Btw, the first two levels of CC, which are used in elementary school, cover outlining, writing from an outline, figures of description, basic lit elements, rewriting a narrative, writing through reduction; i.e. precis writing, etc.

 

Yes, I've briefly looked at these programs in the past. I just figured that these skills didn't *need* to happen earlier. So I focused on narration, copywork/dictation, outlining, and rewriting all the way up until now, now that I am starting to feel stumped. I don't regret spending all this time on them. But I am feeling now that either 1. I missed something, or 2. maybe my son is ready for rhetoric-type skills earlier than I thought he would be. But I'm just not sure.

 

I know you're not looking for a program (or I'd tell you how we learned this in IEW ;),) but how about a few books? The Art of Styling Sentences and (a section of) The Lively Art of Writing both help combat that "get it said in as few words as possible" mode.

 

I'll try to have a look at these this weekend at a curric. fair. As well as have a second look at some of these writing programs. Maybe have a closer look at some of the R&S writing lessons, too. Maybe I *should* use that checklist I mentioned previously. Because R&S (which I already have) does have some good explanations that I sometimes miss until I need clarification of something. I really don't want to look to completely switching to and learning from a packaged writing curriculum because what we've been doing has been working. But I *will* have a peek at some of these programs again. Maybe I'm too stubborn or something, but I just don't want to have to shell out the big bucks for those and have to learn all the ins and outs of them. I just want to learn on my own what I need to do and then do it. But now I'm :001_unsure:

 

When we compare re-writes to the original work, we don't look so much to content. I want them to see how more experienced authors would have said things better than they did. Then I want them to internalize those techniques to stretch their own writing. I am having them compare style much more than making sure they got all of the content.

 

I meant to include this, too, but I was in a rush. I did this, too.

 

One observation is that I'm not sure that wws is grade five so much as level five. I know that wwe 2 is quite a challenge for my almost a fourth grader (mostly because of where he is not because it is TOO hard). I was also counseled to use FLL 3 with him rather than skipping to FLL 4.

 

Level 5, yes that makes sense when comparing it to what WWE does. But when WWE came out, ds was in grade 5. I bought the WWE 1-4 instructor text because I found that there were more subtle skills/teaching helps in it than what I saw in the WTM instructions, and knew it would be helpful. But I didn't spend a whole year (or four!) on it with him, because he'd already had four years of narration and copywork/dictation practice. He just needed some tweaking and it only took a few months. I'm guessing it would be the same with WWS level 5. And then we'd still be stuck again. Maybe. Or maybe it could be a bridge, adding a few skills helps for a year until WTM rhetoric study? Because I don't expect WWS levels to come out in time for him.

 

I feel like I'm suddenly confronted with having to rework a plan, lol, and I don't WANNA! :lol:

[frankcassiesmom]

We do more than one draft on many of our writings. I do work on "fleshing" out the paragraphs from outlines with my 11yo. Just because the work isn't incredibly inspiring for everyone it doesn't mean our kids shouldn't learn how to say things with more interesting words and phrases. There are all sorts of things to learn in doing the rewrites of outlines such as good topic sentences, logical sentence sequencing, learning to write in a concise yet interesting way on even dry subjects, and of course learning to use interesting words and phrases in constructing sentences from even short keyword outlines. For US 6-8th grade is where we really start focusing on word usage on top of the basic outlining and rewriting skills. By the time we enter rhetoric I expect them to have pretty good writing skills so it doesn't impede their getting down their thoughts on deeper topics.

[Colleen in NS]

I can't help you Colleen, but I'm in awe of what you're doing with your kids.

 

Aw, thanks, Cleo! I feel like I'm muddling along most of the time.

 

Our experience has been that the re-writes are always shorter than the original, which I think is to be expected. As long as the info is there and there is good sentence variety and all the other things they talk about in R&S grammar, I'm happy with it. They do end up reading like narrations, though...I agree.

 

So what makes you think that it's to be expected that the rewrites are shorter than the original? Just lack of writing experience? Not having gotten around to learning rhetoric techniques?

 

Your mention of R&S makes me think I should try out using a R&S-skills-learned checklist again. Without using it overwhelmingly.

 

First of all, with each model/lesson my dd completes, I always get her working towards making her re-write better than the model (à la Benjamin Franklin :001_smile:), by focussing on using higher level vocabulary and more complex sentence structure.

 

Hmmm...good idea! I never thought about that. Although my son has recently dug out the Roget's Thesaurus (that I found a thrift store - what a fun book this is - ds loves looking through it!) and used it in his writing. On his own volition. Which is quite the (positive) change.

 

Sentence structure...he does try to vary this - I think it's me who might need that checklist, so I can know what to look for and draw his attention to for improvement on dullish paragraphs.

 

CW also has the student identify essentials and accidentals of a given model. This makes the main information (essentials) stand out, but also allows the student to easily identify what is "extra" (accidental) so they can see what "extras" the writer used and how they contributed to give the model depth and make it more interesting.

 

I wonder if outlining and diagraming sentences fulfills the same purpose...might it be useful for me to go through some outlines and sentence diagrams (after picking apart a paragraph or two this way) with ds and talk about these essentials and accidentals? (I'm just thinking more efficient teaching here - if I already have him do outlines, could I use one of them, diagram some sentences from the original material, and have some things to talk about)

 

Another exercise we use is condensing and expanding paragraphs. The student is given a paragraph and then has to either remove the modifiers, prepositional phrases, etc. and re-write it with just bare-bones information, or they have to add extra modifiers, prepositional phrases, etc. to expand the paragraph as much as possible. I've found this very helpful.

 

I'm not positive, but I think this might be part of the rhetoric study.

 

Oh yes, another thought ....... you could take a couple of weeks and study good writers; the structure of their paragraphs, how they transition from one paragraph to the next, etc.

 

I think this is one of the ideas behind why I'm teaching him outlining - to take apart paragraphs of good writers and see their structures. Maybe I just haven't talked about it enough with ds.

 

If I'm outlining to understand how good writers structure their thoughts and then practice transition skills, time order words, strong adjectives/adverbs, then I would expect a different product.

 

Yes, this is why we do outlining. I'm guessing more talking with ds, a checklist from R&S skills learned, a peek into some other writing programs, and a peek into my rhetoric books are all in order for me.

[Colleen in NS]

We do more than one draft on many of our writings. I do work on "fleshing" out the paragraphs from outlines with my 11yo. Just because the work isn't incredibly inspiring for everyone it doesn't mean our kids shouldn't learn how to say things with more interesting words and phrases. There are all sorts of things to learn in doing the rewrites of outlines such as good topic sentences, logical sentence sequencing, learning to write in a concise yet interesting way on even dry subjects, and of course learning to use interesting words and phrases in constructing sentences from even short keyword outlines. For US 6-8th grade is where we really start focusing on word usage on top of the basic outlining and rewriting skills. By the time we enter rhetoric I expect them to have pretty good writing skills so it doesn't impede their getting down their thoughts on deeper topics.

 

Oh yes, I didn't mention that - ds does a second draft of his rewrites. So, he does an outline, then he rewrites from it, then I look over it for grammar/mechanical mistakes (and if I remember - see, I think I need that checklist - I remind him of recent R&S sentence/paragraph skills he's learned). He corrects what needs to be corrected and hands me a second draft.

 

And I agree with you about the non-necessity of the work always being inspiring. Many times he will say to me, "You pick today! I'm too tired to look for something!" Because I *am* doing this primarily for the writing skill practice. But I do like the freedom to pick our own topics instead of relying on a program.

 

About what I bolded above - all of that is included in my R&S books. Checklist, anyone? Maybe I've gotten too slack about that.

[1Togo]

Colleen,

 

Why don't you contact SWB and see what she suggests? You are sold on her methods, so going a different direction doesn't seem to be what you want. It's obvious that SWB sees the need for something in between WWE, the outlining/rewrite sequence, and rhetoric because she is writing WWS. In fact, SWB has modified her writing suggestions throughout the years. I remember the days when she recommended Abeka for grammar and Writing Strands.

 

As you try to decide on direction, it might help you to nail down what you think is missing from your writing instruction. Are you looking for something to teach style or facilitate deeper thinking or mechanics, etc.? If it's style, then join the IEW yahoo group and search the files for IEW's dress up, sentence opener, and advanced dress up lists and teach them to your children. If it's depth of ideas, then you probably need to move past rewriting the work of another writer; i.e. imitation. Also, is your son writing sentence outlines or phrase outlines? If he is writing sentence outlines per SWB's instructions, what does he do for revision since his actual writing is just removing the framework of the outline?

 

In reply to one of your posts, there are many skills that can (and should in my mind) be learned before tackling rhetoric, and those skills were taught as pre-rhetoric instruction for centuries. I listed a few of them in my first post.

Edited June 7, 2011 by 1Togo

[Penelope]

I'm not where you all are yet, just a curious onlooker remembering how I was taught to write back in the day, outlines and all. ;)

 

But what about the other writing SWB recommends for the middle grades? She talks about not just outlines and rewrites, but also writing free form about literature using a list of questions, an early form of lit analysis. It seems that there is a lot of room in those assignments to improve writing, even to expand to multi-paragraph essays if a student seems ready.

 

If he can write an outline and then rewrite, maybe it's time to have him write his own outlines for his own writing, using this other branch of WTM writing. You could teach to design a basic outline for what he plans to write, and then expand it as he's ready for longer assignments.

 

I am anxious to see WWS, too, and it's interesting that you say that it was different than the lectures and the book. I've always felt that the book was different than WWE; in fact in some places WWE is much much slower and simpler than TWTM, where it says students are to be writing their own history narrations starting in second grade and several paragraphs in grade 3-4. I guess there is going to be a spectrum depending on the student's (and maybe parent's) proclivity for writing, but it seems wrong to keep a child back on a certain skill when they seem ready to move on, just as it would be wrong to rush them on to something else if they hadn't mastered the earlier skill.

 

(back to lurking :tongue_smilie:)

[Colleen in NS]

Colleen,

 

Why don't you contact SWB and see what she suggests? You are sold on her methods, so going a different direction doesn't seem to be what you want.

 

Thanks for the suggestion, but she's a busy person, and I don't want to bother her. I figure that's what she provides the boards for, and I know there are many BTDT Moms who have taught using WTM methods. I made a cross-post to the high school board, hoping to get some help from there, too.

 

It's obvious that SWB sees the need for something in between WWE, the outlining/rewrite sequence, and rhetoric because she is writing WWS. In fact, SWB has modified her writing suggestions throughout the years. I remember the days when she recommended Abeka for grammar and Writing Strands.

 

I know, I remember, and I've seen the modifications. I'm sure more modification is what she has in mind as she works on WWS.

 

As you try to decide on direction, it might help you to nail down what you think is missing from your writing instruction. Are you looking for something to teach style or facilitate deeper thinking or mechanics, etc.?

 

I think I'm mostly just wondering if these short paragraphs rewritten from his detailed, logical outlines are normal/abnormal/acceptable/unacceptable at this point. And if they should be plumped up now, then how. How do I teach him to do this without being artificial or stifling his thoughts that I've worked so hard on carefully developing the clarity of.

 

If it's style, then join the IEW yahoo group and search the files for IEW's dress up, sentence opener, and advanced dress up lists and teach them to your children. If it's depth of ideas, then you probably need to move past rewriting the work of another writer; i.e. imitation.

 

It's really neither (see above).

 

Also, is your son writing sentence outlines or phrase outlines? If he is writing sentence outlines per SWB's instructions, what does he do for revision since his actual writing is just removing the framework of the outline?

 

He does sentence outlines. I'll post a sample below so you can see what he does. It's not really just removing the framework of the outline; it's more of a condensation. Revision comes in when I read his finished first draft, and we edit for grammar/mechanics/spelling/occasional other R&S lesson sentence and paragraph helps.

 

In reply to one of your posts, there are many skills that can (and should in my mind) be learned before tackling rhetoric, and those skills were taught as pre-rhetoric instruction for centuries. I listed a few of them in my first post.

 

When I said "rhetoric," I meant the entire high school writing study laid out in WTM. I looked at my books (rec'd. in WTM) and most of the terms you used are taught in these books. Thus, my non-hurriedness in getting to those skills.

 

But what about the other writing SWB recommends for the middle grades? She talks about not just outlines and rewrites, but also writing free form about literature using a list of questions, an early form of lit analysis. It seems that there is a lot of room in those assignments to improve writing, even to expand to multi-paragraph essays if a student seems ready.

 

Yes, we are using these questions to do lit. analysis and beginning essays, about once every two weeks. But I don't know how I would teach him to expand to multi-paragraph essays with these, if I can't figure out how to help him expand his paragraphs from his outlines yet. One skill seems to precede the other. Which is another reason I titled this thread as I did.

 

If he can write an outline and then rewrite, maybe it's time to have him write his own outlines for his own writing, using this other branch of WTM writing. You could teach to design a basic outline for what he plans to write, and then expand it as he's ready for longer assignments.

 

I could....we've had the R&S lessons where the student gathers notes from various sources and puts them into an outline and then writes a composition. But again, not sure if he's ready for that, since the paragraphs are so short and condensed.

 

it seems wrong to keep a child back on a certain skill when they seem ready to move on, ...

 

I hear you, and I've wondered that. But I'm still not sure if he's ready, because of this paragraph thing.

 

Here is a sample of an outline he did from The Story of Canada (the outline levels will not line up correctly on here):

 

I. America and Britain went to war in July 1812.

A. America tried to teach the British a lesson by attacking Canada.

1. They particularly wanted to open an offensive on Upper Canada.

a. The Americans were sure that the Upper Canadians would not put up a fight.

(1) Most Upper Canadians were from the U.S.A.

(2) Thomas Jefferson thought that it would be a mere matter of marching.

(a) Many Upper Canadians were worried that he was right.

(b) Isaac Brock thought otherwise.

 

Rewrite (I haven't edited it yet for grammar/mechanics/spelling - all of which usually make unclear items clearer):

 

"When America and Britain went to war in 1812, America attacked Canada. Most of the Upper Canadians were from the U.S.A. originally. The Americans thought that they would not put up a fight. Thomas Jefferson declared that the conquest would be a mere matter of marching, and many Upper Canadians were worried that he was right. Isaac Brock thought otherwise."

 

Personally, I would take that outline and write a fuller paragraph. How, I'm not sure how to explain - maybe I better think about that and when I figure it out, explain it to him. But right now I don't know how to explain. I guess part of "how" would be to think about past reading I have done, and loosely model my paragraph after writing that had appealed to me. BUT, does my 13 year old son need to be doing this right now, I do not know. I know his writing style will be different than mine, because he is a different person. And I don't want to make him turn his writing artificial with dressups/openers/etc.. I hope I am explaining myself well. I AM grateful for the help here. I just don't know if this should be a concern or not right now.

[Roxy Roller]

I am in the same boat, Colleen!

 

My DD11 is writing good 2-3 level outlines from a variety of sources, and re-writing from them, but I am also finding that her sentences are quite short and she really needs to learn to expand them. I have been working on her topic sentences and concluding sentences(ala PBW), but we haven't worked on transitions yet.

 

There are glimpses of style coming through, and only the mother of a struggling writer can appreciate it when their child starts a sentence with a prepositional phrase!

 

My plan for Grade 7, is to continue outlining/re-writing in history from a variety of sources, but I am also adding in WriteShop I and Easy Writing. Easy Writing addresses sentence structure, which we need to work on, and I also have the Killgallon books sitting here if I choose to go that route. I am adding WriteShop, because I like the fact that it will be a two year course, and I am hoping that from there we can move on to implementing The Lively Art of Writing, and other books I have, that address the importance of style.

[Capt_Uhura]

Colleen - The Lively Art OF writing is not a curriculum. It's a little, tiny book which cost about $6 through Amazon. NO kidding. I learned so much from that little book. Well worth $6.

[1Togo]

nm

Edited June 8, 2011 by 1Togo

[Capt_Uhura]

I'm not sure I'd agree w/ the statement that WWS is different from the writing talks. I don't really see it as different. I think it's all just fleshed out. I should go over my notes and look at WWS beta again but that is my off-the-top-of-my-head reaction.

[Cleopatra]

I don't have much time (softball season :D) and I haven't read the other posts in detail but I thought I'd quickly respond .....

 

Cleopatra - what levels of CW are you discussing?

 

CW Homer. I find that the skills learned in this level are excellent to carry the student on to higher level writing.

 

Colleen,

 

 

Btw, interacting with ideas through analogy, cause, comparison/contrast, etc. doesn't need to be put on hold until rhetoric. I don't know about CW, but the progym as taught in CC introduces this at the third level, and the expectations are concrete so the student understands what to do as he works through a muli-paragraph essay. Btw, the first two levels of CC, which are used in elementary school, cover outlining, writing from an outline, figures of description, basic lit elements, rewriting a narrative, writing through reduction; i.e. precis writing, etc.

 

CW teaches the above in the third level - Diogenes. CC sound remarkably similar to CW.

 

We do more than one draft on many of our writings. I do work on "fleshing" out the paragraphs from outlines with my 11yo. Just because the work isn't incredibly inspiring for everyone it doesn't mean our kids shouldn't learn how to say things with more interesting words and phrases. There are all sorts of things to learn in doing the rewrites of outlines such as good topic sentences, logical sentence sequencing, learning to write in a concise yet interesting way on even dry subjects, and of course learning to use interesting words and phrases in constructing sentences from even short keyword outlines. For US 6-8th grade is where we really start focusing on word usage on top of the basic outlining and rewriting skills. By the time we enter rhetoric I expect them to have pretty good writing skills so it doesn't impede their getting down their thoughts on deeper topics.

 

Good advice!

 

 

So what makes you think that it's to be expected that the rewrites are shorter than the original? Just lack of writing experience? Not having gotten around to learning rhetoric techniques?

 

 

I think this is one of the ideas behind why I'm teaching him outlining - to take apart paragraphs of good writers and see their structures. Maybe I just haven't talked about it enough with ds.

 

Yes, this is why we do outlining. I'm guessing more talking with ds, a checklist from R&S skills learned, a peek into some other writing programs, and a peek into my rhetoric books are all in order for me.

 

In my experience with my dd, if the model is non-fiction, the re-write is definitely shorter. On the other hand, with her CW models (Aesop, Baldwin, Colum, etc.), her re-writes can be longer than the model (which is often long to begin with!). Non-fiction is certainly based more on facts and perhaps it is simply difficult to expand something if you are trying to pick out the main points yet trying not to alter the original work. It is much easier for her to expand a narrative on the war with Troy, but very difficult to do the same with factual information about the Phoenicians (from the Kingfisher Encyclopedia). I think this is normal. If you haven't already, you might want to try having him outline and re-write a narrative (Aesop, Colum, Baldwin ......) and see if you get better results.

 

CW teaches a number of ways to outline, beginning with Theon's Six Components (person, action, place, time, cause, manner), and then moving to summary sentences, multi-level outlines, etc. Learning to extract information in a number of different ways has been very helpful for my dd.

 

Here is a sample of an outline he did from The Story of Canada (the outline levels will not line up correctly on here):

 

I. America and Britain went to war in July 1812.

A. America tried to teach the British a lesson by attacking Canada.

1. They particularly wanted to open an offensive on Upper Canada.

a. The Americans were sure that the Upper Canadians would not put up a fight.

(1) Most Upper Canadians were from the U.S.A.

(2) Thomas Jefferson thought that it would be a mere matter of marching.

(a) Many Upper Canadians were worried that he was right.

(b) Isaac Brock thought otherwise.

 

Rewrite (I haven't edited it yet for grammar/mechanics/spelling - all of which usually make unclear items clearer):

 

"When America and Britain went to war in 1812, America attacked Canada. Most of the Upper Canadians were from the U.S.A. originally. The Americans thought that they would not put up a fight. Thomas Jefferson declared that the conquest would be a mere matter of marching, and many Upper Canadians were worried that he was right. Isaac Brock thought otherwise."

 

Personally, I would take that outline and write a fuller paragraph. How, I'm not sure how to explain - maybe I better think about that and when I figure it out, explain it to him. But right now I don't know how to explain. I guess part of "how" would be to think about past reading I have done, and loosely model my paragraph after writing that had appealed to me. BUT, does my 13 year old son need to be doing this right now, I do not know. I know his writing style will be different than mine, because he is a different person. And I don't want to make him turn his writing artificial with dressups/openers/etc.. I hope I am explaining myself well. I AM grateful for the help here. I just don't know if this should be a concern or not right now.

 

Again, I wonder if what is being outlined is the problem. I only briefly perused The Story of Canada, but it looked similar to the Kingfisher Encyclopedia, which is notoriously difficult to outline, as 1Togo mentioned.

 

I agree about the artificial dress-up/openers, etc. It can make the writing sounds contrived and stilted and, IMO, does not help the student find their natural "voice".

 

Colleen - The Lively Art OF writing is not a curriculum. It's a little, tiny book which cost about $6 through Amazon. NO kidding. I learned so much from that little book. Well worth $6.

:iagree:

 

 

Sorry, no concrete answers, just some food for thought. :)

[Colleen in NS]

Again, I wonder if what is being outlined is the problem. I only briefly perused The Story of Canada, but it looked similar to the Kingfisher Encyclopedia, which is notoriously difficult to outline, as 1Togo mentioned.

 

I think the Story of Canada is easier to outline that KF. It has logical paragraphs in it, not compressed like KF. But, we also vary the sources of outline material. We do not outline from all one source.

 

Also, about non-fiction vs. fiction - we've been outlining non-fiction, because I was under the impression (from WTM and the audios) that for writing skills practice/dissecting paragraphs for examination, it was necessary to outline non-fiction. We've never outlined more story-like passages.

 

Here is the sample from The Story of Canada, so people can see where he was outlining from in the above sample: p. 86

 

"Britain and the United States went to war again in July 1812, and the Americans decided to punish Britain by invading and conquering British North America, particularly Upper Canada. Since so many Upper Canadians were newcomers from the United States, the Americans were sure they would not put up a fight. 'It will be a mere matter of marching,' said American Thomas Jefferson confidently. Some Upper Canadians feared he was right. Isaac Brock thought otherwise."

 

ETA: Eek, this post sounds somewhat terse - didn't meant to! I was in a rush typing this morning! :D

Edited June 8, 2011 by Colleen in NS

[Amy in CO]

 

Here is a sample of an outline he did from The Story of Canada (the outline levels will not line up correctly on here):

 

I. America and Britain went to war in July 1812.

A. America tried to teach the British a lesson by attacking Canada.

1. They particularly wanted to open an offensive on Upper Canada.

a. The Americans were sure that the Upper Canadians would not put up a fight.

(1) Most Upper Canadians were from the U.S.A.

(2) Thomas Jefferson thought that it would be a mere matter of marching.

(a) Many Upper Canadians were worried that he was right.

(b) Isaac Brock thought otherwise.

 

Rewrite (I haven't edited it yet for grammar/mechanics/spelling - all of which usually make unclear items clearer):

 

"When America and Britain went to war in 1812, America attacked Canada. Most of the Upper Canadians were from the U.S.A. originally. The Americans thought that they would not put up a fight. Thomas Jefferson declared that the conquest would be a mere matter of marching, and many Upper Canadians were worried that he was right. Isaac Brock thought otherwise."

 

Personally, I would take that outline and write a fuller paragraph. How, I'm not sure how to explain - maybe I better think about that and when I figure it out, explain it to him. But right now I don't know how to explain. I guess part of "how" would be to think about past reading I have done, and loosely model my paragraph after writing that had appealed to me. BUT, does my 13 year old son need to be doing this right now, I do not know. I know his writing style will be different than mine, because he is a different person. And I don't want to make him turn his writing artificial with dressups/openers/etc.. I hope I am explaining myself well. I AM grateful for the help here. I just don't know if this should be a concern or not right now.

 

I think that he is definitely on the right track. Making the paragraph fuller will come with practice. You can make suggestions, give examples, maybe work on one sentence per assignment. Try to open his eyes to the possibilities.

 

We have tried CW Aesop and Home for Older Beginners. Currently we are working with Write Shop. I was given IEW, but haven't really looked at it yet. CW was great for getting my children to look at synonyms, rearranging the order of words, and saying things differently. Write Shop has been great for getting my dd to see that putting phrases into a sentence adds depth and can change the meaning. My dd has struggled with writing, but finally, in 10th grade, she is finding her voice. Her creative writing, essays, reports... they are all improving.

 

I truly believe that if you give them the tools, like you are doing, and then give them ideas for improvement, that they will get there. The ideas can come from you, or a program if writing is not your thing.

 

I went back and looked at some of my dd's papers from 8th grade, and I can't believe the improvement in her writing in the last 2 years. Patience isn't easy, I know, but if you just keep plugging along, it will come.

[redsquirrel]

I have two thoughts. One is that this will come. He is a 7th grader and he has a lot of time to learn the craft of writing. Right now, he really is just learning the skills. He is learning the skills along with being in the trenches of puberty so right now this might be enough.

 

The second, if you are not feeling like what I said before is valid, comes from a wonderful writing class I had in college. Go back to oral narration, use some recording device if you have it. Have him write the outline and then talk out his paper. Let him hear it. Let him converse about the topic. Then have him write. It won't be all at once, but on occasion you will start to see of what comes out of his mouth on the paper.

 

I think at this age, there is a lot more going on in their head than they can be bothered to put on paper.

[Colleen in NS]

...but I am also finding that her sentences are quite short and she really needs to learn to expand them. I have been working on her topic sentences and concluding sentences(ala PBW), but we haven't worked on transitions yet.

 

...I am hoping that from there we can move on to implementing The Lively Art of Writing, and other books I have, that address the importance of style.

 

It's good to hear of other kids who are pretty much doing the same thing - outlines, but then rewriting with seemingly short sentences or paragraphs.

 

LAW - does anyone know how this compares to The Elements of Style? I had a quick look at the LAW table of contents yesterday, and compared it with my EOS, but couldn't really tell. Anyone knowledgeable about both who could tell me?

 

I should go over my notes

 

Will be looking over my notes again. ;)

 

In my experience with my dd, if the model is non-fiction, the re-write is definitely shorter. On the other hand, with her CW models (Aesop, Baldwin, Colum, etc.), her re-writes can be longer than the model (which is often long to begin with!).

 

CW teaches a number of ways to outline, beginning with Theon's Six Components (person, action, place, time, cause, manner), and then moving to summary sentences, multi-level outlines, etc. Learning to extract information in a number of different ways has been very helpful for my dd.

 

Does CW differentiate between fiction and non-fiction?

 

And what do you mean by "extracting information" - is this something to do with outlining? I'm not making a mental connection here between what I understand to be outlining, and these Six Components.

 

I think that he is definitely on the right track. Making the paragraph fuller will come with practice.

 

Thank you!!

 

You can make suggestions, give examples, maybe work on one sentence per assignment. Try to open his eyes to the possibilities.

 

We have tried CW Aesop and Home for Older Beginners. Currently we are working with Write Shop. I was given IEW, but haven't really looked at it yet. CW was great for getting my children to look at synonyms, rearranging the order of words, and saying things differently. Write Shop has been great for getting my dd to see that putting phrases into a sentence adds depth and can change the meaning.

 

I truly believe that if you give them the tools, like you are doing, and then give them ideas for improvement, that they will get there. The ideas can come from you, or a program if writing is not your thing.

 

Your specific info. about synonyms (again, he loves Roget's Thesaurus right now), rearranging word order (this seems to happen when we diagram awkward sentences - he sees how to "fix" the weird sentence. Also, we just finished a R&S lesson the other day on how word order emphasizes various parts of the sentence - need to add that to my upcoming checklist), and saying things differently is encouraging, because we do incorporate some of these things. I do find that some of these things are improved as I sit and ask him questions to clarify something. I am glad to hear that you find it has worked out for your older daughter. I so wish I had some other WTMers with kids older than mine, locally, who I could hash this stuff out with. I feel like I'm confusing people here with my posts.

 

I'm not rejecting other programs or books that have been talked about - and I will have a second look at some of them this coming weekend at the curric. fair - maybe there'll be something in them that will give me a new understanding. I just am trying to understand how to continue to implement the program (WTM methods/audios/rec'd. resources) that has worked for me, that I've understood, that has appealed to me, and that has been frugal enough for me all along.

 

I have two thoughts. One is that this will come. He is a 7th grader and he has a lot of time to learn the craft of writing. Right now, he really is just learning the skills. He is learning the skills along with being in the trenches of puberty so right now this might be enough.

 

Aha, I hadn't thought directly about the puberty factor. I know it affects him some days. But yeah, because of puberty, I *could* look at the grade 8 year as almost a year off from new learning, and let it be just a year of practice. I really don't want to rush him into the WTM rhetoric study for at least another year anyway. Maybe, since he might not need any *new* writing skills this coming year, I could use it as a year to work further on the R&S writing topics (sentences/paragraphs/types of paragraphs) that we've already done/will encounter in the gr. 8 book, within his rewrites from outlines. I bet I could somehow make that work...hahaha, but I will probably be back asking more questions in the coming year!!

 

The second, if you are not feeling like what I said before is valid, comes from a wonderful writing class I had in college. Go back to oral narration, use some recording device if you have it. Have him write the outline and then talk out his paper. Let him hear it. Let him converse about the topic. Then have him write. It won't be all at once, but on occasion you will start to see of what comes out of his mouth on the paper.

 

Now this is an appealing idea, too. He did use a recorder in his younger years, when he was making the transition from dictating narrations for me to write down, to dictating them to himself to write down. It was his bridge. This could be a great idea to try, for the reasons you mentioned. I'll ask him. Yeah, the more I think about it, the more it appeals. I'm not discounting what others said about learning various actual writing techniques and skills, but I just don't want to go deeper into those yet, until I think he is comfortable with what I (unsurely so) think is basic - filling out a paragraph from an outline. It just seems to me like this is an important base before starting to try out different types of paragraphs.

 

I think at this age, there is a lot more going on in their head than they can be bothered to put on paper.

 

Thanks. And I am appreciating everyone's time and input. Please continue to add to what I might not be seeing.

[lmrich]

First, I am in awe you are a wonderful, thoughtful teacher.

 

When I have taught 8th grade in the past my students benefitted greatly from seeing me do it too. I would model the process and my thoughts as I was completing the task. This also gave me the added benefit of seeing how difficult the task was.

 

I will try to elaborate more later; I had a rough doctor's appointement and had a new cast put on today so lots of pain!

 

There is another source that I thought would be perfect for outlining - hopefully my brain fog will clear.

[angela in ohio]

LAW - does anyone know how this compares to The Elements of Style? I had a quick look at the LAW table of contents yesterday, and compared it with my EOS, but couldn't really tell. Anyone knowledgeable about both who could tell me?

 

LAW covers much of what is in EOS, but more. Itis much more extensive than EOS. I am using it as the basis for the high school writing class I am teaching next year. It really is fabulous (and you can't beat the price.) I would read excerpts of it to my writing students this past year, and they really found it helpful.

 

I usually do EOS, then LAW, with my students.

[Colleen in NS]

First, I am in awe you are a wonderful, thoughtful teacher.

 

Thank you. I'm muddling along!

 

When I have taught 8th grade in the past my students benefitted greatly from seeing me do it too. I would model the process and my thoughts as I was completing the task. This also gave me the added benefit of seeing how difficult the task was.

 

I will try to elaborate more later

 

Sorry to hear about your pain! I'm :bigear: when you're ready.

 

LAW covers much of what is in EOS, but more. Itis much more extensive than EOS.

 

Thank you! Very helpful.

[Melissa B]

Colleen,

 

I only have the 2nd edition of WTM and none of the other writing lectures, etc. so YMMV. I think there are two primary goals in 8th grade history writing: 3 level outlines of entire chapters (quickly and easily) and precis writing. So really the shorter and clearer the summary the better. The only summary work my dd will do for history this year is precis writing. We will be working on shifting from simpler chronological outlines of a chapter to outlines of an argument (claim) within a chapter/piece of writing and then preparing a precis of the argument.

[Colleen in NS]

We will be working on ....outlines of an argument (claim) within a chapter/piece of writing and then preparing a precis of the argument.

 

(this is weird, I was SURE I posted a reply to this...oh well, I'll try again)

 

Do you mean directly writing a precis from an outline of another author's material? If so, will you share how you plan to do this? Thanks.

[Melissa B]

(this is weird, I was SURE I posted a reply to this...oh well, I'll try again)

 

Do you mean directly writing a precis from an outline of another author's material? If so, will you share how you plan to do this? Thanks.

 

We outline the history selection and then write a precis from the outline.

 

For clarification, I had my daughter refer back to the book Study is Hard Work (Armstrong) specifically Chapter 6 - Putting Ideas in Order and Chapter 13 - Getting the Most Out of History. And I use Adler's How to Read a Book, specifically Chapter 7 - X-Raying a Book. Armstrong does a great job of taking information very similar to what is written in books like WTM and HTRAB and making it very accessible to jr. high/high school students.

 

I think most of my notes on precis writing date back to the old board and discussions including Tina in Ouray. Unfortunately my computer crashed a couple of years ago so I no longer have the actual discussions, just random notes. I don't know if the old board can still be searched, but I found she did a great job of explaning logic and writing clearly and completely.

[Colleen in NS]

I think most of my notes on precis writing date back to the old board and discussions including Tina in Ouray. Unfortunately my computer crashed a couple of years ago so I no longer have the actual discussions, just random notes. I don't know if the old board can still be searched, but I found she did a great job of explaning logic and writing clearly and completely.

 

Thank you! I did used to enjoy her posts.

[missmoe]

Colleen,

 

After my kids are done rewriting what they outlined, we sit down and work with what they have to improve it. With my son (age 13) using a white board, we take turns improving each sentence. I have him rewrite a sentence. I then rewrite that same sentence. We do this several more times with the same sentence. He gets to pick the sentence he thinks works best to use in the rewrite and sometimes he will choose to combine some of the sentences we rewrote. Depending on how long the paragraph is, we may do this with every sentence or just a few sentences. I've found this method has helped my ds know a bit more what is expected in mature writing.

 

Another thing that has helped him think about how to put together information is to outline from multiple sources. For some reason that seems to make him really think about how the info is combined into sentences. I have him take notes from several sources, put all that info together into an outline, and meld it together into a paragrahp. I know this isn't exactly what you want to do and it probably veers a bit into the Rhetoric stage, but I've found it causes a bit more thinking which seems to spur better writing skills.

 

And to answer your orginal ?--yes, I think that is totally normal for a 7th-grader who is a boy! :tongue_smilie: Before I began doing what I mentioned above, my ds would write his outline using the shortest possible sentences, and then he would simply recopy those sentences into paragraph form!:001_huh:

[1Togo]

Colleen,

 

If you are interested, what Miss Moe is describing with multiple sources is taught in IEW's Unit 6. The 'Teaching Tips and Techniques' disc describes the process, and the instructions are worth the price of the disc. In a nutshell, you decide on a topic; i.e. habitat of tigers, for instance. You create an outline from three different sources (one outline from each source) on the habitat of tigers. Then, you write a fused outline on the habitat of tigers, keeping the facts that are important to you and discarding repeats, etc. The disc gives the specifics with an implementation tip that is so clever. I don't really see it as a rhetoric skill. We did this work with simple topics in 5th and 6th grade after dd learned to write an outline from one source. It's wonderful prep for writing essays with research from multiple sources.

Edited June 13, 2011 by 1Togo

[Colleen in NS]

Colleen,

 

After my kids are done rewriting what they outlined, we sit down and work with what they have to improve it. With my son (age 13) using a white board, we take turns improving each sentence. I have him rewrite a sentence. I then rewrite that same sentence. We do this several more times with the same sentence. He gets to pick the sentence he thinks works best to use in the rewrite and sometimes he will choose to combine some of the sentences we rewrote. Depending on how long the paragraph is, we may do this with every sentence or just a few sentences. I've found this method has helped my ds know a bit more what is expected in mature writing.

 

This sounds like it has a similar goal as when I have ds diagram an awkward sentence - to see how it can be improved. Or when I ask him to think of a different verb or adjective. Thank you for the teaching idea!

 

Another thing that has helped him think about how to put together information is to outline from multiple sources. For some reason that seems to make him really think about how the info is combined into sentences. I have him take notes from several sources, put all that info together into an outline, and meld it together into a paragrahp. I know this isn't exactly what you want to do and it probably veers a bit into the Rhetoric stage, but I've found it causes a bit more thinking which seems to spur better writing skills.

 

Well, actually, I think this *is* what we will be doing in another year, so thanks for mentioning it and how it has worked with your son! It's just slightly different than what I'm talking about, in that I'm strictly talking here about outlining from another person's writing, and then rewriting from that. But we plan to head into what you are talking about - just not quite yet. Not until I've helped him learn to plump up these imitative paragraphs.

 

And to answer your orginal ?--yes, I think that is totally normal for a 7th-grader who is a boy! :tongue_smilie: Before I began doing what I mentioned above, my ds would write his outline using the shortest possible sentences, and then he would simply recopy those sentences into paragraph form!:001_huh:

 

OK, thanks for mentioning that!! Reading what you wrote about the creating-an-outline-from-notes-from-multiple-sources-and-then-rewriting-from-it gives me a little insight as to my ds' future, as he is the same as you say your son used to be. Thanks!

 

Colleen,

 

If you are interested, what Miss Moe is describing with multiple sources is taught in IEW's Unit 6. The 'Teaching Tips and Techniques' disc describes the process, and the instructions are worth the price of the disc. In a nutshell, you decide on a topic; i.e. habitat of tigers, for instance. You create an outline from three different sources (one outline from each source) on the habitat of tigers. Then, you write a fused outline on the habitat of tigers, keeping the facts that are important to you and discarding repeats, etc. The disc gives the specifics with an implementation tip that is so clever. I don't really see it as a rhetoric skill. We did this work with simple topics in 5th and 6th grade after dd learned to write an outline from one source. It's wonderful prep for writing essays with research from multiple sources.

 

Thank you again. What you described is pretty much what is taught in the outlining/rewriting lessons in R&S 6ish and up. We went through those lessons just to see what they were all about, but I decided to put off the practicing of those skills until we were past the outlining-from-another-author-and-rewriting phase. It was too complicated for ds' brain at the time. It would have taken him too long, because of not having yet had enough rewriting-from-outline-of-other-author's-writing practice. I am pretty sure now that what ds needs is to work on this rewriting-from-outline-of-other-author's-writing, and learning to make it more interesting (with basic paragraph skills, not rhetoric skills) and filled out, before we tackle writing from notes/outlines from various sources. In itself, it might not be a rhetoric skill, but for ds, I think he needs this more foundational skill solidified before getting into it. And I think once he gets into it, applying rhetoric skills to those rewritings will be lots easier, because he will know the mechanical part of putting paragraphs together. That is what is thin right now - the mechanical part. So I think I am either going to put together a basic paragraphs skills checklist from R&S lessons, or refer to the R&S Handbook; and have him use that for the coming year to solidify this paragraph-writing business.