Schedules and advice for Art of Problem Solving vol 1 and/or AoPS Intro to Algebra?

[RanchGirl]

As implied by the title:), I'm looking for schedules for Art of Problem Solving vol 1 and/or AoPS Intro to Algebra, similar to the schedules put out by Core Foundations, My Father's World, or Donna Young.

 

We have been so spoiled having these handy schedules to map things out by day -- yes I can do one myself but I really don't want to reinvent the wheel if it's out there.

 

Otherwise I suppose I could just have my son do one lesson in each book each day and not make a schedule at all?

 

He is currently doing an online AoPS problem solving class that ends in 3 weeks. Then I'm planning that he'll start working on these two books simultaneously and do them through the summer until he starts a local algebra class in the fall. It's a fast paced class so I think having some confidence and knowledge ahead of time will be really helpful, but I don't want to burn him out over the summer either. Maybe we'll just do the intro to algebra and save problem solving for next summer? He started LoF Beginning Algebra awhile back but he doesn't care for it much (and he loved fractions & decimals so this really surprised me!)

 

I realize I am thinking as I type here and I apologize; as you can see advice is much needed here!!

[regentrude]

We have used AoPS Intro to Algebra, and I do not really understand what you mean by a lesson a day - it is not split into individual lessons. There are chapters and sections, but those vary a lot in size and difficulty.

 

The way we use the book is to start form the beginning and work through it, taking whatever time it takes to do the problems, understand the material, work the review problems and a selection of the challenge problems.

(It took DD 240 hours for the complete book, so more than a school year- it covers a lot more than a typical algebra 1 text). The online class does, I believe, a chapter per week which is very fast paced and would not have been suitable for us.

 

So, sorry, no help. I never felt a need for a schedule though - the work is clearly set and my kids just pick up where they left off the day before.

[MBM]

"AoPS is like a juicy steak." My favorite quote about a math program yet. :D

 

At this point I'd treat Algebra 1 as a meal he generally needs to consume regularly (as in devoting X minutes per day, not X problems per day) and Volume 1 as a snack for those times he's hungrier.

 

If you make a schedule, I'd suggest keeping it a little bit flexible. For my son, some chapters of Algebra 1 took longer than others. This is why when he took his first online class -- during the school year nonetheless -- it was just too intense and fast for him. A disaster. So, I let him go at his own pace which was along the line of fits and spurts. He would sometimes even skip a chapter and then return to it later.

 

For Volume 1 you could have him start at the beginning and just work on the problems he thinks he can get. Mark those that he finishes if he doesn't write in the book so he can figure out what to do later.

 

Other options would be to work on the Intro to Counting and Probability and/or Intro to Number Theory if he hasn't yet. They are more like a tasty side dish. Both are helpful for expanding the math horizons and the AMC tests if he's planning to take them. One or even both could be completed in a summer, or you could do one this summer and the other next summer.

 

Now I'm hungry. :)

Edited April 22, 2011 by MBM

[lewelma]

I agree with Regentrude, AoPS is hard to schedule out. If a child takes some time to get a certain concept, it just takes time. My son does 5 hours/week and he can get done a chapter in approximately 3 weeks. With 22 chapters, you can see that we are not on the 1 year plan. so we are set to finish is 330 hours. My son is 10 so I assume that it would take less time for an older kid.

 

Ruth in NZ

[regentrude]

I agree with Regentrude, AoPS is hard to schedule out. If a child takes some time to get a certain concept, it just takes time. My son does 5 hours/week and he can get done a chapter in approximately 3 weeks. With 22 chapters, you can see that we are not on the 1 year plan. so we are set to finish is 330 hours. My son is 10 so I assume that it would take less time for an older kid.

 

 

I would like to add:

Even for an older kid, I would caution against trying to go fast - not just because of mastery, but because there are so many wonderful problems in AoPS, that it would be a shame to skip too many because of a time table.

This book is meant to be thoroughly enjoyed.

[Julie of KY]

I wanted to add that if he is able to work through and understand the AoPS text, then there will be no need to take a local algebra class. I would think most classes would not be up to the same par as AoPS.

[Kathy in Richmond]

Agreeing with everyone else here. Just take it at his pace. The biggest benefit of using a curriculum like AoPS is the learning that takes place by chewing (sorry - MBM's post made me hungry, too :D) on some of the challenge problems. You can't schedule that on a calendar! I tried, however, to keep the overall picture in mind -if the kids were stalling out too much on a difficult section, I nudged them onward after discussing the problem with them. There will be sections or problems that they won't completely master the first time through the texts. That's OK...

 

One other comment: my kids found the traditional Problem solving books easier to understand after they'd mastered algebra one. I'd let him try to poke around and play with that book if he wants to, but don't be surprised if it works better later on. We used Volume I along with their algebra 2 and geometry years, and Volume II along with precalculus and above. At the algebra one level, we played with MathCounts and AMC 8 problem solving books instead of AoPS.

[Belacqua]

"AoPS is like a juicy steak." My favorite quote about a math program yet. :D

 

At this point I'd treat Algebra 1 as a meal he generally needs to consume regularly (as in devoting X minutes per day, not X problems per day) and Volume 1 as a snack for those times he's hungrier.

 

Other options would be to work on the Intro to Counting and Probability and/or Intro to Number Theory if he hasn't yet. They are more like a tasty side dish.

 

Now I'm hungry. :)

 

Loving this analogy. Especially as AoPS has a new class called "Mathematical Tapas." I started thinking about where their WOOT class would fit in this menu and decided it was like eating at Alinea or el Bulli. You're given things you don't quite understand and might not even recognize, but you know they're astonishing and you'll always remember them.

 

And I agree that the Volume I book might be better saved until next year. Familiarity with algebra would make it a lot less daunting, I think.

[regentrude]

Loving this analogy. Especially as AoPS has a new class called "Mathematical Tapas." I started thinking about where their WOOT class would fit in this menu and decided it was like eating at Alinea or el Bulli. You're given things you don't quite understand and might not even recognize, but you know they're astonishing and you'll always remember them..

 

The analogy I read (by a reviewer on this board, probably) and loved most was:

"The traditional algebra programs give you the nuts and bolts. AoPS gives you the nuts and bolts and then has you build the Taj Mahal with them."

[Belacqua]

The analogy I read (by a reviewer on this board, probably) and loved most was:

"The traditional algebra programs give you the nuts and bolts. AoPS gives you the nuts and bolts and then has you build the Taj Mahal with them."

 

That's wonderful.

 

We AoPS groupies really ought to get one of those orange VW vans with curtains and tool around in it together. Maybe we can corner people at airports and tell them the Monty Hall Problem.

[RanchGirl]

Thank you everyone for your thoughts, I appreciate all the responses. I will have him work through the algebra book at his own pace until he starts the local class this fall, and try to just enjoy the ride and get over my planner/box checker mentality in the meantime. <this will not be easy for me!!> We'll save the AoPs vol 1 book for later on.

[RanchGirl]

Other options would be to work on the Intro to Counting and Probability and/or Intro to Number Theory if he hasn't yet. They are more like a tasty side dish. Both are helpful for expanding the math horizons and the AMC tests if he's planning to take them. One or even both could be completed in a summer, or you could do one this summer and the other next summer.

 

thank you for your suggestions!! Could you tell me more about C/P and NT. I had thought they were recommended *after* algebra 1. If he can do them before algebra 1, maybe we should do one of those this summer instead of algebra 1?

 

Sigh, there are just too many good options with AoPS!

[RanchGirl]

Agreeing with everyone else here. Just take it at his pace. The biggest benefit of using a curriculum like AoPS is the learning that takes place by chewing (sorry - MBM's post made me hungry, too :D) on some of the challenge problems. You can't schedule that on a calendar! I tried, however, to keep the overall picture in mind -if the kids were stalling out too much on a difficult section, I nudged them onward after discussing the problem with them. There will be sections or problems that they won't completely master the first time through the texts. That's OK...

 

One other comment: my kids found the traditional Problem solving books easier to understand after they'd mastered algebra one. I'd let him try to poke around and play with that book if he wants to, but don't be surprised if it works better later on. We used Volume I along with their algebra 2 and geometry years, and Volume II along with precalculus and above. At the algebra one level, we played with MathCounts and AMC 8 problem solving books instead of AoPS.

 

 

Thank you Kathy, I really appreciate your thoughts, especially since my kids would love to follow in your children's footsteps! I will take your advice and save Problem Solving vol 1 for later on. Did either of your children take Intro to Counting and Probability or Intro to Number Theory? If so, where in the sequence did you feel they fit best?

[Matryoshka]

thank you for your suggestions!! Could you tell me more about C/P and NT. I had thought they were recommended *after* algebra 1. If he can do them before algebra 1, maybe we should do one of those this summer instead of algebra 1?

 

My dd did the first half of Number Theory last summer before Alg I - actually, it was just after Singapore 6B. There were some things I had to explain to her (things on exponents, the distributive property...), and I let her skip the Challenging Problems at the end of the chapters for now, but she did fine and really enjoyed it.

 

It's probably much easier to get through after Alg I, especially the Challenging problems, but if the kid has an interest, I think it can be tackled with a bit of hand-holding earlier.

 

She liked it so much, that's what made me decide to switch to AoPS as our main program starting with Alg I next year (we're doing Singapore Discovering Mathematics 1 this year, and with any luck we can tackle the rest of Number Theory this summer).

[Kathy in Richmond]

Thank you Kathy, I really appreciate your thoughts, especially since my kids would love to follow in your children's footsteps! I will take your advice and save Problem Solving vol 1 for later on. Did either of your children take Intro to Counting and Probability or Intro to Number Theory? If so, where in the sequence did you feel they fit best?

 

All of the AoPS textbooks (except for the two problem solving volumes) were written after my kids were past those levels!.....So, the only way to get their AoPS fix was to sign them up for an online class. And since the online classes move at the speed of light, they didn't do them as early as they would have been able to work from the books alone. My daughter took the MathCounts problem series and the Intro to Number theory classes as an eighth-grader, concurrent with her home study of algebra two. She took what is now a called Algebra 3 and Precalculus as online classes in grade nine, concurrent with studying precalculus topics at home with me. And then lots more classes the next three years!

 

Neither one of my kids took Counting and Probability from AoPS, though it's one of my dd's favorite mathematical fields....she learned lots of C&P in summer camps instead, and practiced it a lot as part of the math competition teams she was on. But we do own the Intermediate C&P textbook, and it's wonderful as a resource.

 

I would think that the order of intro AoPS courses that I'd recommend would be algebra -> C&P or number theory -> geometry. C&P and the number theory can be done in either order - just go with what your son prefers best.:)

[lewelma]

After reading the posts, I thought this general guide might help you. To help him set some goals, I set this general guide:

 

1 day: problems

1 day: exercises

If there are 5 sections: 10 days total.

Then 2 days review problems, and 2 days challengers (we don't do the starred ones in that section yet). 1 day for a test (I make this up from the equivalent chapter in Jacobs so he usually gets 100% which he likes :001_smile:. Thus, we got 3 weeks (very approximately) per chapter.

 

This does not always work. He might get ahead one day and move forward, and then take 2 days for a different section. Chapter 7 was REALLY hard for him. So he did it twice with 1 month off in between for christmas break (summer here).

 

Hope this gives you a few ideas,

 

ruth in NZ

[KAR120C]

Could you tell me more about C/P and NT. I had thought they were recommended *after* algebra 1. If he can do them before algebra 1, maybe we should do one of those this summer instead of algebra 1?

DS had done NEM 1 & 2 and dabbled in a lot of Algebra 2 topics already, but hadn't done any other AoPS courses. We did them concurrently, and I really think they complement each other very well that way. However, if you were looking at doing the online courses, it is an extremely heavy load and an extremely fast pace for doubling up! I wouldn't generally recommend it. Not impossible, but wow that was an intense semester! If you're doing them on your own schedule I think I would do them together or back to back.

 

If you were putting them in the AoPS sequence, I'd either do them after Introduction to Algebra (their Algebra 1 and 2) or at some point after the first half of that book. (Algebra 1 or approximately that)

 

We've done enough dabbling that I think DS would place neatly into about the last quarter of the Intro to Algebra, so we're doing to go through it casually over the summer, picking up the most challenging problems and the couple topics he's not had as much exposure to. Then next year we're going to do the first volume of Problem Solving.

[Jen in NY]

Not sure if anyone has mentioned...

 

that in the online classes at AoPS the Intro to Algebra book is used for both Alg I and II, the Intermediate Algebra book for Algebra III.

 

Honestly, I have been so happy with AoPS that I haven't closely compared scope and sequence with another program, but I think the intro to algebra book covers more than a traditional Algebra I course --- so if my kids weren't online for classes I would definitely approach it like Regentrude.... work for mastery, then move on.

 

Best to you! We have been so pleased with AoPS over the years.

 

:001_smile:

[KAR120C]

We AoPS groupies really ought to get one of those orange VW vans with curtains and tool around in it together. Maybe we can corner people at airports and tell them the Monty Hall Problem.

:lol:

[MBM]

We AoPS groupies really ought to get one of those orange VW vans with curtains and tool around in it together. Maybe we can corner people at airports and tell them the Monty Hall Problem.

 

Groovy! We can be math hippies! I just have to find my old Birkenstocks and guitar. :D

[Pamela in VA]

I have a few questions about whether this would be the right program for 14 yo rising 9th ds. I want to give a little background so you experience moms out there can best advise me. Some info is repeat since I recently posted a question about a number of other Algebra programs.

 

Ds completed Singapore 6B in 6th grade and for the most part did it fairly independently. He also did several of the Challenging Word Problem books. I chose Right Start Int Math/Geometry for 7th. Then, due to some life events we did not school most of last year and the Geometry was abandoned about 2/3 in; however, he did complete Module A of Videotext Algebra and did quite well (it came as part of RS Geom Deluxe pkg). I decided not to buy the rest of the modules because of the cost, especially since I have the ability to teach the material. I just couldn't see spending that kind of money, even though dd would follow.

 

I decided on LoF Algebra I and it is not a good fit for him. The story is just a time waster and a distraction. He alternates between really getting it and struggling, but I firmly believe a major part of his struggle is that he just doesn't like school (never has) and thinks that math is his worst enemy. The LoF format doesn't help either. We have stopped it about 1/2 way through and are completing the RS Geometry until I find a better Algebra program.

 

I have also come to realize that because of his mind set right now (totally negative to math and bored with it), he needs me to present a short lesson, then he can do the work. He has always amazed me at how he approaches solving problems because he gets the right answer, though often it is not in the conventional manner. Often he cannot even tell me what he did. Today I realized during our lesson that he is quickly able to see the patterns in the math and what he needs to do to solve a problem, but he does not know how to translate that into a math expression, even though he can figure out the answer.

 

So, my question is whether this program might help him to do that or if you think it might be more of a frustration for him. He is my child who never wants to anything the conventional way.

 

Looking forward to your advice. TIA,

PameLA in VA

[regentrude]

Hard to say without knowing your kid.

 

 

I have also come to realize that because of his mind set right now (totally negative to math and bored with it), he needs me to present a short lesson, then he can do the work.

 

 

That would be a CON, because that's not how AoPS works. AoPS is discovery based; it challenges the student to first work out the problem on his own, and only then the concept is presented.

Also, I can not see the program working with a student who has a negative attitude about math - first, the student needs to WANT to do math, otherwise he won't put in the effort to get everything out of the book.

AoPS will not work for a student who needs to be spoon fed or coaxed.

 

He has always amazed me at how he approaches solving problems because he gets the right answer, though often it is not in the conventional manner.

 

That would be a PRO. AoPS would work well for creative problem solvers.

 

 

Often he cannot even tell me what he did. Today I realized during our lesson that he is quickly able to see the patterns in the math and what he needs to do to solve a problem, but he does not know how to translate that into a math expression, even though he can figure out the answer.

 

Is that the case in prealgebra too? He needs to be proficient in prealgebra, needs to know what to do and why to do it, in order to succeed in algebra.

 

 

He is my child who never wants to anything the conventional way.

 

AoPS certainly is unconventional.

 

Have you looked at the samples?

Would your son be willing to work with a program that is way beyond the scope and depth of any conventional algebra curriculum?

[Pamela in VA]

Thanks regentrude. To answer your questions...

 

I guess I should clarify. Ds is actually quite good at writing the basic algebraic expressions through what we have done. Today we were deriving a formula using deductive reasoning from a geometric iteration and he could tell me what he was doing, but didn't know how to translate it. It was an exponential progression applied to perimeters and areas, so it was a bit advanced. Once I showed him the "math language" for what he was telling me, he totally understood.

 

It's hard to answer the question about how it would fit for him since he has such a negative attitude right now. I would not say he WANTS to do math and he would agree. It seems that would be a big problem with this program. He wants to check boxes and move on, but I can also see that part of that is boredom with things. I wonder if the creative challenge of AoPS might spark his interest.

 

I have seen samples on the website, so I should probably print them out for him to look at. It just occurred to me...ds is just at the point where he will learn to factor polynomials, but hasn't had any exposure to the concept. Would you be willing to scan that lesson and email it to me as a PDF? It might be a good test of how the approach would work for him.

 

Thanks!

PameLA in VA