Local elementary incident...what do you think?

[woolybear]

Horrible!! I agree with the other ideas. Or just arbitrarily pick out some students (mix of skin colors, ethnicities, etc.)

[jewellsmommy]

Isn't that racism? Only white children (males?) can be used to show how these things work?

 

I agree with the teacher being an idiot. I lean towards an idiot with too much power. I don't know about differentiating between people because of their race, though. It seems like it would be just as hurtful to be excluded based on your race as it would be to be singled out... then, those are the same thing.

 

 

Yes, :iagree:. No matter which way you go with it. Someone suggested it could have been shown by shirt color. That would be an improvement, but even then this seems like an awful "weighty" lesson. Some children are super sensitive and obsess over such things and some just shrug off that which they can't quite grasp. So, I don't think the teacher accomplished much.

 

 

I can't help but remember my dd's righteous indignation at the Chinese Emperor when she learned that he had workers buried in the Great Wall and how they were forced to work etc. She went from loving China to hating it instantly, and that was just from reading. If someone had demonstrated it...well, that would not have gone over well.

[SweetBean]

I'm the one who initially brought up the Holocaust exhibit, which I was thinking about because of Sis' comment about not objecting as much if her Dd was role playing the black plague, or something along those lines. I was thinking about history exhibits/reenactments that have shock value but also educational value. Others were giving actual details about the exhibits. No one was saying these things were the same as what happened in the classroom.

 

I still can't think why the teacher would do something like that.

I hear you. I was just pointing out that it is one thing to voluntarily prarticipate in an exhibit at a museum, and another to be pulled out in class for this purpose.

[jewellsmommy]

So, am I right in saying SHE's not AA?

The lack of sensitivity is appalling.

 

 

No, she is white.

 

She is also on the younger side. Maybe that contributed to the problem, impulsive and lack of life experience?

[lionfamily1999]

Martha, that's true here (minorities outnumbering the majority).

Oh my goodness, that's horrible!

:iagree:The original post was deleted to protect identities and things.

[lionfamily1999]

I hear you. I was just pointing out that it is one thing to voluntarily prarticipate in an exhibit at a museum, and another to be pulled out in class for this purpose.

Yes, and I was responding her wondering what museum does that.

 

Didn't exactly deserve the vitriol.

[pbt1294]

This sounds just like something that a young lady at our church would do. She is a teacher, and I could just see her doing something like this.

 

It was stupid, but she probably meant well. Very sad!

 

There were a host of other ways she could have gotten the same point across.

[Nestof3]

It's not really any different than acting to me. I guess I just don't see what's to get so upset about. It would have been more effective if they would have had another demonstration after this one where they single out another group of people -- perhaps are more modernly-appropriate group like only people with earrings. People with earrings get a candy bar, but those without do not.

 

Or, those who have a cell phone. Or something more relevant to young people.

 

I do think 4th grade is too young for this sort of exercise, but I think it is actually a good exercise. I think people are just waiting to get up in arms over something that could prove useful. It's not like any of these kids were actually slaves -- nor were their parents, nor their grandparents.

 

PS -- I sympathize with people who are offended by these things, but I wish we could be willing to learn from them without everyone getting up in arms.

 

****************************

 

I also think it would be great to role play when women couldn't vote. I don't see it any differently.

[lionfamily1999]

It's not really any different than acting to me. I guess I just don't see what's to get so upset about. It would have been more effective if they would have had another demonstration after this one where they single out another group of people -- perhaps are more modernly-appropriate group like only people with earrings. People with earrings get a candy bar, but those without do not.

 

Or, those who have a cell phone. Or something more relevant to young people.

 

I do think 4th grade is too young for this sort of exercise, but I think it is actually a good exercise. I think people are just waiting to get up in arms over something that could prove useful. It's not like any of these kids were actually slaves -- nor were their parents, nor their grandparents.

 

PS -- I sympathize with people who are offended by these things, but I wish we could be willing to learn from them without everyone getting up in arms.

:lol: I'm sure the people that are irritated/offended wish the same thing. Like teachers would figure out by now that these sort of exercises go over like lead balloons.

[Nestof3]

:lol: I'm sure the people that are irritated/offended wish the same thing. Like teachers would figure out by now that these sort of exercises go over like lead balloons.

 

Truthfully, one of the most impacting movies I've ever watched was Roots. Without people willing to role-play those events, I think many of us would be robbed of truly being able to empathize.

 

It's not a shameful thing to be black. The shameful thing was the way they were treated by all sorts of people, including the Africans that sold them into slavery.

[lionfamily1999]

Truthfully, one of the most impacting movies I've ever watched was Roots. Without people willing to role-play those events, I think many of us would be robbed of truly being able to empathize.

 

It's not a shameful thing to be black. The shameful thing was the way they were treated by all sorts of people, including the Africans that sold them into slavery.

I agree, but I think it's flat out assinine to do something like what this teacher did. I mean, really? She pulled a group of AA kids infront of the class and auctioned them, really? She thought they were going to learn something beyond how ticked off their parents could get without having strokes, really? No, the lesson was lost in the sheer shock that some woman would take it upon herself to set up segregation in her classroom, pull children of a particular race forward to make an example. If anything they learned that it can still suck to be black today. Way to make those kids feel like mounds of s-. Every one of them, because I can promise the white kids weren't feeling particularly great being forced to take part either and it's not like they were learning sympathy or how it was. Because WE ARE DIFFERENT NOW. AAs are different now, this is home turf now, this is not some wierd foreign county, they have rights now and THEY KNOW IT. White people are not blindly racist now, they aren't comfortable with seeing minorities treated like that now, they aren't going to yuck it up while bidding on someone. NOTHING WAS LEARNED besides the fact that some people are still thoughtless blind jerks with too much power.

 

off the soap box.

 

ETA (hoping back on for a minute) This was not roots. These were not actors. Far as we know, there was no script. This was improv with unwilling subjects.

[lionfamily1999]

This wasn't even a good simulation, because at no point were southern whites forced to fake it at an auction. Because the emotions were not the same, because the "buyers" were probably sick at the very idea of what was going on. Even with the bizarreness of what happened to Tara's poor dd there was some similarity, being stolen away without foreknowledge, I still think in that case they just learned when people get power they get dangerous and cruel. In this case, there was no similarity between what the teacher did and the reality of the historical context she was claiming to be try and convey.

[Puma Mom]

Not appropriate, for that age group certainly. And Norfolk might not be the best place for an exercise like that at any age--too much history of negative race relations. They shut down schools in the late 50s rather than integrate.

 

Schools were integrated in my city, just across the water from Norfolk, when I entered 3rd grade. It was no big deal for me, but many were up in arms. Years later, I worked with a black woman (yes, the fact that she was black is important to the story) who was probably 8 years older than I am. She obviously had a much different experience in school, and I was struck by how guarded that experience had made her.

[Murphy101]

Truthfully, one of the most impacting movies I've ever watched was Roots. Without people willing to role-play those events, I think many of us would be robbed of truly being able to empathize.

 

It's not a shameful thing to be black. The shameful thing was the way they were treated by all sorts of people, including the Africans that sold them into slavery.

 

Seriously?

 

This was nothing like, nor had any similar educational value, to volunteer actors following a script for a stage or camera production.

 

If the teacher is interested in creating dramatic performances, then she needs to get a job in another field. Maybe a drama teacher.

[JadeOrchidSong]

Seriously?

 

This was nothing like, nor had any similar educational value, to volunteer actors following a script for a stage or camera production.

 

If the teacher is interested in creating dramatic performances, then she needs to get a job in another field. Maybe a drama teacher.

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[Slartibartfast]

Isn't that racism? Only white children (males?) can be used to show how these things work?

 

I agree with the teacher being an idiot. I lean towards an idiot with too much power. I don't know about differentiating between people because of their race, though. It seems like it would be just as hurtful to be excluded based on your race as it would be to be singled out... then, those are the same thing.

 

Name one situation in which white males would be used for such a purpose.

 

That is the point. There is none.

[jewellsmommy]

It's not really any different than acting to me. I guess I just don't see what's to get so upset about. It would have been more effective if they would have had another demonstration after this one where they single out another group of people -- perhaps are more modernly-appropriate group like only people with earrings. People with earrings get a candy bar, but those without do not.

 

Or, those who have a cell phone. Or something more relevant to young people.

 

I do think 4th grade is too young for this sort of exercise, but I think it is actually a good exercise. I think people are just waiting to get up in arms over something that could prove useful. It's not like any of these kids were actually slaves -- nor were their parents, nor their grandparents.

 

PS -- I sympathize with people who are offended by these things, but I wish we could be willing to learn from them without everyone getting up in arms.

 

****************************

 

I also think it would be great to role play when women couldn't vote. I don't see it any differently.

 

 

 

That is sort of what I was suggesting in my op. If this had been older students, with a few selected and discussed ahead of time, like a drama it might have been better. But these were 9 yr olds so I don't think, personally, that the angst is misplaced. These were not volunteers in a play. These were just kids who were told if your black, stand up and we're going to auction you off :confused: so you can see what happened a long time ago. I agree that no harm was meant. But, I beleive all here agree there are better ways to teach this. It's funny how posters here (you know us un-certified teacher wannabes :tongue_smilie:) managed to come up with way better ways of pulling this off in a very short amt. of time. If only that teacher had sought out this board for our wisdom.. ;)

 

My dd is about to turn nine, will be a 4th grader next yr and I just know how this would have been if she had been in that classroom. But I am admittedly quite sensitive.

Edited April 13, 2011 by jewellsmommy

[Murphy101]

Name one situation in which white males would be used for such a purpose.

 

That is the point. There is none.

 

Let's illustrate the white slavery this week kids. All the pretty blond blue eyed girls, (ETA: or boys. There is always a market for them too. :( ) will be mock kidnapped on the way to lunch today so they can feel just a hint of the horror of being sold. Or maybe we should recreate Jewish slavery. Or Indian tribes that enslaved each other. Or....

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_slavery#White_slavery

 

Just do a google for white slavery.

 

Slavery is not just about AAs. There is hardly ANY race or ethnicity that hasn't been enslaved at some point in history.

 

And human trafficking is alive and well today still.

Edited April 13, 2011 by Martha

[jewellsmommy]

Let's illustrate the white slavery this week kids. All the pretty blond blue eyed girls, will be mock kidnapped on the way to lunch today so they can feel just a hint of the horror of being sold. Or maybe we should recreate Jewish slavery. Or Indian tribes that enslaved each other. Or....

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_slavery#White_slavery

 

Just do a google for white slavery.

 

Slavery is not just about AAs. There is hardly ANY race or ethnicity that hasn't been enslaved at some point in history.

 

And human trafficking is alive and well today still.

 

 

That's the truth and it's horrible! I thought about what if you wanted to show the horror of the sex slave trade. "Ok, all you pretty little girls come to the front of the room so the boys can buy you."

 

I was reminded of this because we got one of those magazines where you can buy chickens for a village or fish to stock a pond. Well, one option was to purchase bicycles for young girls so that they will feel safe traveling to and from to school, faster moving targets. Apparently many hit that certain age and stop going because they get kidnapped off the road and forced into sex slavery! :eek::crying: I showed it to dh who looked at at our dd and then wanted to know how many bikes we could afford, he said forget the chickens!

[Slartibartfast]

Let's illustrate the white slavery this week kids. All the pretty blond blue eyed girls, will be mock kidnapped on the way to lunch today so they can feel just a hint of the horror of being sold. Or maybe we should recreate Jewish slavery. Or Indian tribes that enslaved each other. Or....

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_slavery#White_slavery

 

Just do a google for white slavery.

 

Slavery is not just about AAs. There is hardly ANY race or ethnicity that hasn't been enslaved at some point in history.

 

And human trafficking is alive and well today still.

 

Human trafficking is isolated incidents that are ILLEGAL. It isn't the same as government supported slavery followed by years of segregation. That would be isolated instances of victimization, not EVERYONE of that race inside this country.

 

My mom's generation went through integration. People ALIVE NOW experienced segregation. People ALIVE NOW saw those images and have those memories. Those kid's grandparents would have those experiences and memories.

 

I didn't remotely suggest that it would be ok to use white male children for such a purpose but I do find it ridiculous that such a thing is being suggested.

 

I have been singled out in classes similarly to the story because of my race. I actually know what that is like.

Edited April 13, 2011 by Sis

[jewellsmommy]

I think I have reached my conclusion:

 

 

I love manipulatives as much as the next guy (we'll use Spy Car for example), but not everything requires hands on learning.

[Murphy101]

Human trafficking is isolated incidents that are ILLEGAL. It isn't the same as government supported slavery followed by years of segregation. That would be isolated instances of victimization, not EVERYONE of that race inside this country.

 

My mom's generation went through integration. People ALIVE NOW experienced segregation. People ALIVE NOW saw those images and have those memories. Those kid's grandparents would have those experiences and memories.

 

 

I didn't remotely suggest that it would be ok to use white male children for such a purpose but I do find it ridiculous that such a thing is being suggested.

 

I have been singled out in classes similarly to the story because of my race. I actually know what that is like.

 

 

Sure. Let's emulate

 

Irish need not apply.

American Asian camps during world war.

Or the red scare and German citizens changing their names.

 

My point was simple. EVERY race/ethnicity has been legally enslaved at various points in history.

 

It was wrong to emulate it in a 4th grade classroom, not bc it was about AAs.

It was wrong bc it is wrong to use kids to emulate slavery of anyone and not necessary to the teaching of slavery at any point in history.

[Slartibartfast]

Sure. Let's emulate

 

Irish need not apply.

American Asian camps during world war.

Or the red scare and German citizens changing their names.

 

My point was simple. EVERY race/ethnicity has been legally enslaved at various points in history.

 

It was wrong to emulate it in a 4th grade classroom, not bc it was about AAs.

It was wrong bc it is wrong to use kids to emulate slavery of anyone and not necessary to the teaching of slavery at any point in history.

All I said was that minority children shouldn't be used for such a purpose, how are white children involved?? Why are white children being brought up?? I said "minority children" because no one ever used white children for that purpose.

 

That is like me saying "I don't like chocolate chips in my cookies" and someone was all "but what about the marshmallows!! Why are you hating on marshmallows??" It isn't applicable.

[Murphy101]

All I said was that minority children shouldn't be used for such a purpose, how are white children involved?? Why are white children being brought up?? I said "minority children" because no one ever used white children for that purpose.

 

That is like me saying "I don't like chocolate chips in my cookies" and someone was all "but what about the marshmallows!! Why are you hating on marshmallows??" It isn't applicable.

 

Well I quoted you up thread. The tone of your post was that using white kids would have been okay but it wouldn't apply bc there is no situation where white kids could be used to emulate historical slavery.

 

I was simply responding that:

 

A. Yes, there is.

 

And

 

B. It really has nothing to do with minorities. It's wrong, bc it is wrong.

 

If I misread you, then I offer apologies.

 

If we actually agree and are talking past each other, then I hope this clears up my reasoning.:)

 

I'm not hating on chocolate chips or marshmallows.:D

[Slartibartfast]

Well I quoted you up thread. The tone of your post was that using white kids would have been okay but it wouldn't apply bc there is no situation where white kids could be used to emulate historical slavery.

 

I was simply responding that:

 

A. Yes, there is.

 

And

 

B. It really has nothing to do with minorities. It's wrong, bc it is wrong.

 

If I misread you, then I offer apologies.

 

If we actually agree and are talking past each other, then I hope this clears up my reasoning.:)

 

I'm not hating on chocolate chips or marshmallows.:D

 

White kids are not used to emulate historical slavery in the US because it isn't shocking. It isn't because it didn't happen but that it was so long ago that the wounds are more healed. How many whites can name their family members who were slaves in the US?

For other countries it is different...it would be someone else who was ostracized, someone else who was the pariah.

 

Of course it is wrong regardless but it does apply to minorities because it wouldn't be shocking otherwise.

Edited April 13, 2011 by Sis

[Heather in Neverland]

I think the teacher is an idiot.

 

:lol::lol::lol: :iagree:

[DawnL]

Good Lord! My kids are black and would have been affected by this. My daughter, who is a 4th grader, is very sensitive and would have been very negatively impacted by this.

 

I would be down there, claws out, the same day.

[lionfamily1999]

Name one situation in which white males would be used for such a purpose.

 

That is the point. There is none.

Okay, so because white kids are not used for these examples it makes it okay to make them the only ones used?

Human trafficking is isolated incidents that are ILLEGAL. It isn't the same as government supported slavery followed by years of segregation. That would be isolated instances of victimization, not EVERYONE of that race inside this country.

 

My mom's generation went through integration. People ALIVE NOW experienced segregation. People ALIVE NOW saw those images and have those memories. Those kid's grandparents would have those experiences and memories.

 

I didn't remotely suggest that it would be ok to use white male children for such a purpose but I do find it ridiculous that such a thing is being suggested.

 

I have been singled out in classes similarly to the story because of my race. I actually know what that is like.

Not every black American is related to people that were enslaved here.

 

You said minority children should not be used for this. Well, that leaves us with the majority, doesn't it. You didn't say it was wrong in and of itself, you said using minority children was wrong as if using white children was just fine.

 

All the same, generations holding on to the issues of their parents/grandparents/ggrandparents does not allow for progress. If so, I wouldn't own anything Japanese and would be quite happy to watch the Tsunami/Earthquake/Radiation coverage. As it is, I'm sensitive to my grandmother's disdain for them, but I don't allow it to color how I see modern day Japan. My husband would detest the English, that would have nipped our relationship in the bud. I suppose what happened in our family histories doesn't matter though. It's "different" I'm sure.

All I said was that minority children shouldn't be used for such a purpose, how are white children involved?? Why are white children being brought up?? I said "minority children" because no one ever used white children for that purpose.

 

That is like me saying "I don't like chocolate chips in my cookies" and someone was all "but what about the marshmallows!! Why are you hating on marshmallows??" It isn't applicable.

Because once you take out the minority the majority is left. Since the majority means white, well...

 

And frankly, even though they weren't brought up front they WERE used for that purpose.

[Murphy101]

Okay, so because white kids are not used for these examples it makes it okay to make them the only ones used?

 

Not every black American is related to people that were enslaved here.

 

You said minority children should not be used for this. Well, that leaves us with the majority, doesn't it. You didn't say it was wrong in and of itself, you

 

said using minority children was wrong as if using white children was just fine.

 

All the same, generations holding on to the issues of their parents/grandparents/ggrandparents does not allow for progress. If so, I wouldn't own anything Japanese and would be quite happy to watch the Tsunami/Earthquake/Radiation coverage. As it is, I'm sensitive to my grandmother's disdain for them, but I don't allow it to color how I see modern day Japan. My husband would detest the English, that would have nipped our relationship in the bud. I suppose what happened in our family histories doesn't matter though. It's "different" I'm sure.

 

Because once you take out the minority the majority is left. Since the majority means white, well...

 

And frankly, even though they weren't brought up front they WERE used for that purpose.

 

:iagree: You said it clearer than I did.

 

Also, I would be royal POd at the presumption that just bc my kid is white he must be descended from slave owners/traders/racists.

[Nestof3]

This is a spin-off of sorts, but I also think slavery in other cultures and throughout history should be explored more -- not necessarily too deep for fourth graders, but I think students should be made more aware of how much slavery existed throughout time and in other cultures. I also think students should spend more time learning about the other aspects of the triangular trade -- not just the African slaves.

 

On another note, I am a woman, and I am aware of how women were treated like property throughout time with very few rights. They have long been used to fulfill the s*xual desires of men. They have been r*ped since the beginning of time. This has made me educated but not uncomfortable with being a woman and knowing the history of woman. Though I identify with these victims just because I am a woman, I do not feel threatened by them. That history is not my present.

 

I long for the slavery in the US to be in the distant past so that we can get away from people taking it all so personally as though it were a current event. We can easily talk about slaver in the Bible, and no one would probably blink an eye at reenacting a story with slave and master from the Roman Empire, but everybody is so sensitive about AA slavery in the US. It happened, but just because you are black doesn't mean it happened to you. Identify and move on.

[lionfamily1999]

:iagree: You said it clearer than I did.

 

Also, I would be royal POd at the presumption that just bc my kid is white he must be descended from slave owners/traders/racists.

:iagree: Dh's mother was born here to Scottish immigrants (her older sister had to jump through the hoops to become American with their parents). My mother's mother came here with her parents after having been left a displaced person by the Japanese. My mother's father is German/Cherokee. My father's father and his family came here looking for a better life. My father's mother's family came with the Mayflower and didn't leave Mass till his generation. Assuming my children are descendant from slave owners angers me greatly. Almost as much as it angers the black Americans I know who were not descendant from slaves, or do not self-identify as African, since most claim their countries of origin and many are not even from that continent, to have that assumed of them.

[Saille]

That is horrific. Absolutely horrific. Why would you do something like that? If you feel you have to do that sort of activity, have each kid randomly pull a t-shirt out of a bag. Auction off one color. Don't use skin color, eye color, or any other genetic characteristic of those kids.

 

That's the best suggestion I've ever heard WRT this type of activity. If I were one of the mamas in question, I'd be furious.

[Slartibartfast]

Okay, so because white kids are not used for these examples it makes it okay to make them the only ones used?

 

Those were your words not mine. I never said any such thing.

 

 

Not every black American is related to people that were enslaved here

 

I think we all know that but it is beside the point. Our President isn't descended from slaves.

 

You said minority children should not be used for this. Well, that leaves us with the majority, doesn't it. You didn't say it was wrong in and of itself, you said using minority children was wrong as if using white children was just fine.

 

As I stated above just because I said I don't want chocolate chips in my cookies doesn't mean I am also saying I do not want marshmallows. You are trying to put words in my mouth and I dislike it.

 

All the same, generations holding on to the issues of their parents/grandparents/ggrandparents does not allow for progress. If so, I wouldn't own anything Japanese and would be quite happy to watch the Tsunami/Earthquake/Radiation coverage. As it is, I'm sensitive to my grandmother's disdain for them, but I don't allow it to color how I see modern day Japan. My husband would detest the English, that would have nipped our relationship in the bud. I suppose what happened in our family histories doesn't matter though. It's "different" I'm sure.

 

There were a lot of disparaties before the Civil Rights movement. Of course it only makes sense that it would take some time for the race to recover from hundreds of years of oppression. Those disparaties would make a difference in the number of people who went to college, got good jobs and so forth.

 

If your grandparents struggled to find good jobs and get into college then it would effect your parents, it would effect you.

 

It takes time for us to get past it. It does take time for a group of people to recover. Yeah it is getting better but it isn't better NOW.

 

 

 

Because once you take out the minority the majority is left. Since the majority means white, well...

 

As a minority I often say things like that. I never mean "but it is ok for white kids"

 

I have never heard of someone making an example of a white child due to their *race*

 

That is a privilege.

 

Here is an article on white privilege.

 

http://www.amptoons.com/blog/files/mcintosh.html

 

 

And frankly, even though they weren't brought up front they WERE used for that purpose.

 

I am sure it made some of the more sensitive kids feel awkward.

Edited April 13, 2011 by Sis

[Slartibartfast]

:iagree: You said it clearer than I did.

 

Also, I would be royal POd at the presumption that just bc my kid is white he must be descended from slave owners/traders/racists.

 

FWIW

 

I *AM* descended from slave owners. I know that. Those same people saw their sons move away, BOTH marry Native Americans and their children fought for the Union in the Civil War.

 

If we don't do right, our kids might.

Edited April 13, 2011 by Sis

[isitnaptime]

Makes me want to throw up. I can't imagine my daughters having to participate in something like that. Can you imagine what the playground felt like after that??

 

Speaker on race issues. Tim Wise

 

http://www.timwise.org/category/audio-video/

 

http://www.bing.com/videos/watch/video/tim-wise-on-white-privilege-clip/a0bf5419f31b90e914dda0bf5419f31b90e914dd-527773140206?q=tim%20wise