LisaKinVA Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 There is no advanced directive. My father and I are outnumbered. My grandmother has severe demintia. She is 88 years old. My grandmother was admitted to the hospital almost 2 weeks ago. She had had the flu, and a bladder infection. She was severely dehydrated. She then started getting agitated and took the IV's out, so then she was restrained. My mother has been feeling all sorts of guilt over everything. But, if they hadn't taken her to the hospital when they did, she'd be dead. She refused to eat, so they put in a feeding tube. She has continued to get weaker, and now she needs a ventilator because she's having trouble breathing, and her heart is not handling the stress well. She did eat some today (better than ever before). Everyone else is saying that "we don't know all of the particulars -- and the ventilator will give her a fighting chance." But, I'm sitting here feeling like we are simply prolonging her death -- to make us "feel" better, that we did what we could. She's not comatose... and I know the vent will take some pressure off of her heart. BUT, the underlying cause remains and will NOT get fixed on the vent. Her not eating. She has been on a feeding tube for nearly a week. She has not gotten stronger. I guess I just feel like the ventilator is going to make everything more difficult. She's not in a coma. She's going to be AWAKE, unable to talk... with a tube down her throat making her breathe. And for some reason, this is supposed to make her more comfortable as she dies? Personally, I know neither my husband nor I would want this for us. My aunt (my mother's only living sibling), has refused to come, has refused to help in any way... but of course wants her mother on a ventilator. My older brother says, "we always fight for life...period." My younger brother says, "put her on the ventilator, because we don't know enough about the situation." Me? I see my grandmother waking up and freaking out because there is this TUBE going down her throat. Being restrained. Unable to communicate. Agitated, angry... and incapable of doing anything. And my mother sitting there crying... telling my grandmother what? That it's okay? Maybe I'm looking at this all wrong. But if putting someone on a ventilator isn't going to help a person get better... why are we doing it? This may give my mother some peace. She may feel like at least she "didn't just let her die." But, when her heart goes in 2 weeks instead of the next few days... are they going to re-start it, because we "fight for life...period?" Where does it end? Taking someone OFF life support is a much more difficult decision than putting them on. And WHO is going to make that decision? God willing, that won't happen... but no one is talking about that potential decision at. all. It's 2am. I'm not going back to sleep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donna Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 :grouphug: So sorry. Decisions like those are never easy especially when the family does not agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wilhelm Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 I'm sorry. We are sort of going through this with my Mom (82)....she isn't hospitalized or anything, but the dementia is settling in and you can here her struggling to talk,etc. We are all Christian Scientists and so following her wishes and avoiding medical treatment, etc. Well, all except one sibling of mine (there are 8 of us)..... I think he is hedging to get Mom committed. It is hard being 1600 miles away from her at this time. :( It is so hard to go through this...... :( I hope you find peace..... :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KayT Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 I am so sorry. We just went through this with my mother-in-law who passed two weeks ago. I hope everyone who reads this thread will make a living will and get their family members to do the same. It is such a difficult and painful situation for all involved. Praying for you and your family. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blakereese Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 :grouphug::grouphug: I am so sorry. These decisions are awful to have to make. :grouphug::grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blakereese Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 I am so sorry. We just went through this with my mother-in-law who passed two weeks ago. I hope everyone who reads this thread will make a living will and get their family members to do the same. It is such a difficult and painful situation for all involved. Praying for you and your family. And :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G5052 Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Even with an advanced directive/living will, there can be considerable family disagreement, trust me. Someone will question just what it says, whether the person would really want it applied now, whether it was valid, etc. etc. My family tried to hide that there was one when the time come, but I got it to the doctor and she thankfully took care of it from there. I took a lot of flack for it though, but have no regrets. I think that no matter what you do, there will be family drama, so just hang tight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tammyla Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 :grouphug:LisaK:grouphug: :iagree: Dh's grandfather passed away last month. I'm glad he was a grandchild not a son or daughter because it was a mess. Even with an advanced directive/living will, there can be considerable family disagreement, trust me. Someone will question just what it says, whether the person would really want it applied now, whether it was valid, etc. etc. My family tried to hide that there was one when the time come, but I got it to the doctor and she thankfully took care of it from there. I took a lot of flack for it though, but have no regrets. I think that no matter what you do, there will be family drama, so just hang tight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBMama Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brehon Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 First, big :grouphug:'s. This is never easy and IME there is always family drama even when a will and advanced directives have been written and even when a DNR is in place. Check your state regs. In TX a DNR can be signed even if the patient is no longer able to communicate/make wishes known/mentally competent. It involves the patient's doctor and either the MPOA/DPOA or the main caregiver (usually a spouse, but can certainly be an adult child). The DNR can only be rescinded by the people who sign it; so, that eliminates the "dueling DNRs". It's a hard decision to make and, you're right, making the decision to take someone off a vent is even more difficult. Best of luck to you and your family during this most difficult time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 :grouphug::grouphug: My family just went through this. Thankfully my FIL had a living will. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LisaKinVA Posted March 21, 2011 Author Share Posted March 21, 2011 My brother is there now. The doctor hasn't arrived, no evaluation for the vent. She is doing some better with the mask, but her vital signs are all over the map. My cousins are NOT helping things either. I honestly don't think they understand what's going on... one of my cousins thinks we should "just bring her home." :confused: Umm, she can't walk, can't breathe without major assistance, can't eat, can't go to the bathroom... oh, but of course, my 65 year old mother should be able to care for her...all alone! No one from my aunt's family has been willing to step up in *any way* to help these past two years, but they are certainly filled with all sorts of advice and demands -- which *all* fall upon my mother. On the bright side, my mother found a signed & notarized Power of Attorney (from 2004), which no one had any idea about. So, my mom is going to take care of all of the banking, etc. My younger brother is there now. She is conscious, but won't talk or open her eyes. My brother is holding her hand. She has "woken up" enough to hit my mother a couple of times... she's very agitated with all of the tubes. My aunt STILL won't come. Although, they notified my uncle's work that they may have to leave at any time. I guess they won't come until my grandmother dies... and that is just so sad. The reason is because my 35 year old cousin with the 7 month old "needs" her. I'm sorry, but my 35 year old cousin can take care of her 7 month old infant on her own (there are no medical or psychological issues... just "me-time" issues). HEY, COUS! I have FIVE kids, and because YOUR family won't help... MY mother isn't avaliable to help with *any* of her grandkids, and has been MISSING them horribly. Can you tell I'm just a bit peeved? I'm also upset because I can't go there. There is nowhere to leave my kids... they are too young to be left alone at the house... and dh can't get away from work for at least 4 days (BIG project at work...defense related). I'm upset because my grandmother will probably be put on a ventilator to "keep her alive" until my aunt can get there... and then take her off. I think that is just cruel. I'm upset because my grandmother has done this to herself... and that dimensia has twisted her mind to the point that she can't do "what is best" for herself (EAT!!!) Thank you for all of the support, I so appreciate it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TXMary2 Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 :grouphug::grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tap Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homeschooling Again Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 I'm so very sorry for you. My maternal grandmother died a year ago yesterday. She was 92 and had suffered a severe stroke. They transferred her to a convalescent home but then she went back to the hospital because of dehydration (very, very common). My mother was an RN, thank God, and never understood the point of keeping an elderly person alive who would have to live the next few months in pain. I'm certain we never would have put her on a ventilator -- she had oxygen for a day or so, but not a ventilator. My mom, my sister, and I decided to move my grandmother to hospice and despite the inevitable ocassional bouts of what ifs and guilt, we know we did the right thing for her. She was comfortable (morphine) and we were able to have a last cup of tea with her and read a little poetry to her before she dropped into a coma and shortly thereafter passed away. Hospice is a tremendous gift and I thank God we had it as an option. I do hope your grandmother, you, and your family find comfort soon. You may want to start the hospice talk with your grandmother's doctor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 I'm upset because my grandmother has done this to herself... and that dimensia has twisted her mind to the point that she can't do "what is best" for herself (EAT!!!) Thank you for all of the support, I so appreciate it. With Alzheimer, their body forgets HOW to eat. (I don't know if it's different with regular dementia.) And, as hard as it is, giving them a feeding tube prolongs the inevitable (it also makes things worse, impaction and such). Even IF they could *snap out of it* they aren't who they once were-their brains just have deteriorated too far. You may want to ask the Dr what purpose the feeding tube would serve. And the ventilator. This is a terribly hard thing. Grief looks different for everyone-and your Aunt, as awful as what she's doing seems, is grieving to the point that she cannot handle the situation. Give yourself some grace. I can't tell you how horrible the situation is, I completely understand. :grouphug::grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoPlaceLikeHome Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LisaKinVA Posted March 22, 2011 Author Share Posted March 22, 2011 UPDATE: My grandmother isn't on the ventilator yet... she's too weak for them to do the surgery needed to move the feeding tube to her stomach. Part of me is relieved. My younger brother stayed in the hospital all day with her, holding her hand and talking (no, he doesn't run out of things to talk about ;) He told my mother (she slept all afternoon), that there were a couple of times he didn't think my grandmother was going to make it. My mom is staying the night. My cousin in FL is flying up, as he'd rather spend time with her while she's still alive. My aunt's family is still MIA. They are now medicating my grandmother trying to get her heart rate/BP to even out. She didn't really talk all day. Just "acted" like she was asleep the whole time. She's in the ICU/Cardiac wing now... I know my mother would have a much easier time letting my grandmother go, if her sister were there. She's now talking about "just" putting her on a ventilator long enough for her to stay alive until my aunt could get there. I appreciate all of the support and the prayers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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