All this talk of PR

[Crazyderiver]

This is our first year homeschooling. We have been using AAS 1-2, ETC 1-4, FLL 1, WWE 1 as our LA curriculum. If I wanted to switch to PR, could I start my son on level 2? He spells above his reading ability (which is below grade level) and I am attempting to close the gap. I would also LOVE the all-in-one. I am open to all advice, but was curious about where to start in Phonics Road. How quickly could we do PR1 if we needed to start at the beginning? Would it all be review of what we have already covered? Also, for what it is worth he is mostly an auditory learner. Just needing a little input. This forum has has been my life-line throughout our first year.

[kimsclan]

:bigear:

[Veritaserum]

This is our first year homeschooling. We have been using AAS 1-2, ETC 1-4, FLL 1, WWE 1 as our LA curriculum. If I wanted to switch to PR, could I start my son on level 2? He spells above his reading ability (which is below grade level) and I am attempting to close the gap. I would also LOVE the all-in-one. I am open to all advice, but was curious about where to start in Phonics Road. How quickly could we do PR1 if we needed to start at the beginning? Would it all be review of what we have already covered? Also, for what it is worth he is mostly an auditory learner. Just needing a little input. This forum has has been my life-line throughout our first year.

 

With PR, you really need to start in the beginning with Level 1 because it lays a foundation and teaches things that are not included in the later levels (except for review, but you need the materials from level 1). When I switched my 8yo in January, she went through Level 1 in a month. She is now working through Level 2.

 

I used to use AAS, FLL, and WWE (among other LA programs). They are good, but I prefer PR because it is all-in-one. :) It saves me so much time.

[Lovedtodeath]

The suffix rules are a not-miss and they are at the end of level one, but there are people who have started at level 2 or 3 successfully. It just depends on a lot of factors, I guess. I recommend that you join the yahoo group and ask, you might get some helpful personal emails. ;)

 

I am hoping that someone has some advice for you regarding the spelling above his reading ability. That doesn't seem right, depending on how much of a difference there is.

[Crazyderiver]

The suffix rules are a not-miss and they are at the end of level one, but there are people who have started at level 2 or 3 successfully. It just depends on a lot of factors, I guess. I recommend that you join the yahoo group and ask, you might get some helpful personal emails. ;)

 

I am hoping that someone has some advice for you regarding the spelling above his reading ability. That doesn't seem right, depending on how much of a difference there is.

 

Thanks for the info about the suffix rules. It is also helpful to know that students can accelerate quickly through level 1 if need be. The spelling above his reading level also has me concerned. He knows around 45 phonograms and can sound out words with ease when spelling. He even spells well orally when no writing is involved. If you give him the same word to read, he misses. Often he includes sounds that aren't present in the word or just guesses based on context. I admit, I am perplexed!

[Lovedtodeath]

 

The spelling above his reading level also has me concerned. He knows around 45 phonograms and can sound out words with ease when spelling. He even spells well orally when no writing is involved. If you give him the same word to read, he misses. Often he includes sounds that aren't present in the word or just guesses based on context. I admit, I am perplexed!

I would start a new thread with this as the title. I can think of 3 people who will probably have something to say immediately.

[Snowfall]

I've read several people say you can skip level one of PR if you complete levels 1-3 of AAS. The only problem there seems to be is that PR2 doesn't have all the Rule Tunes in it, which were covered in PR1. I don't know if there's some other way to get the songs from Mrs. Beers or what. I don't see why you couldn't do PR2 after AAS3, provided you could get the songs. You'd only have to learn how to mark the words, which is really easy to do. It only took my 6yo a week to have it down pat. Personally, I'm extremely intrigued with AAS levels 1 and 2, just because of the explicit instruction in syllabication, which is not included in PR at all. In PR, words are written split into syllables, but there's no explicit instruction in why they're divided the way they are, other than a couple of the rules (doubled consonants and suffixes are the only ones I can think of).

[lexi]

We are doing level 1 of PR right now and I think it would be hard to skip as it lays a great foundation with the phonics and the rules. I would think that you could quickly progress through level 1, learning the rules and applying them to already familiar spelling words. But I'm not sure about jumping right into the second level.

 

I would highly suggest calling them and speaking with Barbara Beers. I called her with a question several months and she was so helpful and was able to steer me in the right direction.

 

We are loving PR and it has been wonderful for my daughter. It is very thorough and her spelling has just taken off and the rule tunes really cement the spelling rules for her.

[9arrows4God]

I am about to buy CLE, Lrn to Read --- I here lots on here about Phonics road -- sounds good, but my concern with such a large family - I know I just would not sit down to watch the video one time then have to go onto teach from that. Every extra bit of time is used. Hubby and I use our evening for listening for encouraging message and growing - it is such a precious time. I think this would stress me out. I tried to look at her sample but all I saw was her explaining it not really showing a sample lesson to see what she actually does in a lesson.

[Lovedtodeath]

 

I've read several people say you can skip level one of PR if you complete levels 1-3 of AAS. The only problem there seems to be is that PR2 doesn't have all the Rule Tunes in it, which were covered in PR1. I don't know if there's some other way to get the songs from Mrs. Beers or what. I don't see why you couldn't do PR2 after AAS3, provided you could get the songs.

The rule tunes are included, but the building codes (worksheets that list and illustrate the rule) are not.

Personally, I'm extremely intrigued with AAS levels 1 and 2, just because of the explicit instruction in syllabication, which is not included in PR at all. In PR, words are written split into syllables, but there's no explicit instruction in why they're divided the way they are, other than a couple of the rules (doubled consonants and suffixes are the only ones I can think of).

:iagree:This thread could help: If I want to use the Phonics Road and teach syllabification

 

[9arrows4God]

So before I comit to the buy now on my other stuff, I just need to rest my mind, this is the other program that is striking me, but from my above paragraph, what do you think.

 

Are any of you still overwhelmed implementing it?

 

How much time a day for the children. And do you have to spend the whole time guiding them each day or do they get introduced then off on their own. What about various age readers?

 

And is there a link to some actuall sample lessons not just her explaining it, showinf what is in the package..

 

I liked her reference to the Latin, and it not making sense to us and that is how words are in the begining to readers. :)

[Lovedtodeath]

We are doing PR2. It takes very little time. We can get it done in about 20 minutes. I allowed an hour per day on my schedule and that is way too much.

 

http://www.thephonicsroad.com/shop/index.cfm/product/1_2/the-phonics-road-level-one---complete-package.cfm

 

You have to go to shop online, then select the package. Each underlined title has a PDF file.

 

It seemed overwhelming to me when it first came in the mail and I hadn't implemented it yet. When we switched to PR2 there is more than just spelling and reading... the literature study seemed overwhelming to me and I procrastinated big time about actually implementing it, but I just had to watch the videos and teach it, and then it was easy. It is easy. After starting out not doing it for a few weeks, we are all caught up.

[Lovedtodeath]

So before I comit to the buy now on my other stuff, I just need to rest my mind, this is the other program that is striking me, but from my above paragraph, what do you think.

Well, Tina has 8 students, and I think she has examples of teaching a whole lesson on her blog... I will see if I can get her on here for you. :)

[johnandtinagilbert]

Hi.

Thanks, Carmen, for the heads up!

This is our first year homeschooling. We have been using AAS 1-2, ETC 1-4, FLL 1, WWE 1 as our LA curriculum. If I wanted to switch to PR, could I start my son on level 2? He spells above his reading ability (which is below grade level) and I am attempting to close the gap. I would also LOVE the all-in-one. I am open to all advice, but was curious about where to start in Phonics Road. How quickly could we do PR1 if we needed to start at the beginning? Would it all be review of what we have already covered? Also, for what it is worth he is mostly an auditory learner. Just needing a little input. This forum has has been my life-line throughout our first year.

I would encourage you to start at level 1. This will the rest of the phonemes under his belt. It will also give him time to learn the markings (won't take long, but it will be nice to do so w/ familiar phonemes as learned in AAS). Additionally, you find the application of PR will also help w/ his reading. He will be spelling to read many words in level 1.

 

I am about to buy CLE, Lrn to Read --- I here lots on here about Phonics road -- sounds good, but my concern with such a large family - I know I just would not sit down to watch the video one time then have to go onto teach from that. Every extra bit of time is used. Hubby and I use our evening for listening for encouraging message and growing - it is such a precious time. I think this would stress me out. I tried to look at her sample but all I saw was her explaining it not really showing a sample lesson to see what she actually does in a lesson.

I know what you're talking about with a large family. Carmen's right, I have 8. I get through PR by having DVD Marathons. I watch a lot of video at once, take notes in my teacher's materials, then grab and go from day to day. Once you get through the program one time, you really can grab and go the second time around. In other words, since I've gotten through level 3 with my dd, I don't need to review the information or the DVDs when I get there with my boys. It really transfers from DVD to teaching easily. I fast forward through a lot, too, spending most of my DVD time on the literature portions (b/c I mark my copy of the book). Overall, it takes very little time as a whole and no time from day to day, beyond reading my notes for a minute or so.

 

So before I comit to the buy now on my other stuff, I just need to rest my mind, this is the other program that is striking me, but from my above paragraph, what do you think.

 

Are any of you still overwhelmed implementing it? It gets easier all the time and I continue to be amazed at how much we apply, remember and how little time it takes. We worked much harder and spent more time with other programs and did a lot more busy work.

 

How much time a day for the children. And do you have to spend the whole time guiding them each day or do they get introduced then off on their own. What about various age readers? Check out my blog. There are several "A Day in the Life" posts. Here's a good one to start: A Day in the Life of PR2

 

And is there a link to some actuall sample lessons not just her explaining it, showinf what is in the package..

 

I liked her reference to the Latin, and it not making sense to us and that is how words are in the begining to readers. :)

It's been fun learning the history of our language...here's a cool one. Did you know that the reason there is a silent b in climb is b/c its a German word? I'll let Mrs. Beers tell you the rest of the story, but it reminds us to think, "climben" each time spell it and we never forget the silent b. Good stuff!

 

Well, Tina has 8 students, and I think she has examples of teaching a whole lesson on her blog... I will see if I can get her on here for you. :)

Thanks, again, Carmen. Good lookin' out!

[siloam]

I will begin by saying that unless the child is an extreme sequential learner, you can't make a bad choice here. Both are excellent programs.

 

On the spelling better than reading. What problems is he having? Does he remember the sounds letters make or is he having problems recalling them? Does he recall the sound fine, but he just has to blend it again as if he hasn't seen it?

 

My first gut response would be to do more multi-sensory work with the phonograms, especially tracing sand letter cards while saying the sounds, or writing them in sand while saying the sounds, as well as writing them on paper or a white board while saying the sounds. Those all target sound recall problems through.

 

If he has the sounds down and just isn't recognizing the word, then I would ask him if he can see words or letter in his mind or if he just sees pictures. It might be that he has really low visual memory, so he literally isn't recognizing the word. Doing a problem like Seeing Stars will help him develop the ability and build visual memory.

 

If it is some combo of the above let me know what is going on and I can try to help brain storm some ideas to attack it.

 

BTW my 2nd dd could spell well for a whole year before she could blend, and I mean at all. It took her longer but she got there and now reads well.

 

Also in general covering old material just builds an ease in using it, which it sounds like he could use on the reading side.

 

Heather

[Crazyderiver]

I don't think he has much visual memory because he is such an auditory learner. He spells well because I speak the word, he sounds it out (out loud) and then he recites any rules to himself. When I then show him the word to read, he looks at it and guesses...the very word he just spelled and pronounced! If he comes across a word while reading that he doesn't know, he looks away or searches the picture for clues. How can he sound out a new word if he won't look at it. So I guess he doesn't pull knowledge from visualizing. He has an amazing capacity for memorization and comprehension IF you read to him, but he struggles to read himself. I have not done any sight words at all with him and have only taught him based on phonics. Maybe he just needs sight word practice. What are the best techniques for teaching a auditory learner to read?

 

I am very curious about Seeing Stars and am off to check it out! Thanks a ton!

[Lovedtodeath]

It sounds like he might need reading glasses (far-sightedness is often overlooked by a traditional vision screening) or vision therapy (I found a developmental optometrist by finding a vision therapist). Have you looked into that?

 

The book Helping Children Overcome Learning Difficulties helped me to figure out what we needed, and the screening by the vision therapist was very helpful.

Edited February 16, 2011 by Lovedtodeath

[siloam]

I don't think he has much visual memory because he is such an auditory learner. He spells well because I speak the word, he sounds it out (out loud) and then he recites any rules to himself. When I then show him the word to read, he looks at it and guesses...the very word he just spelled and pronounced! If he comes across a word while reading that he doesn't know, he looks away or searches the picture for clues. How can he sound out a new word if he won't look at it. So I guess he doesn't pull knowledge from visualizing. He has an amazing capacity for memorization and comprehension IF you read to him, but he struggles to read himself. I have not done any sight words at all with him and have only taught him based on phonics. Maybe he just needs sight word practice. What are the best techniques for teaching a auditory learner to read?

 

I am very curious about Seeing Stars and am off to check it out! Thanks a ton!

 

 

I wouldn't use sight words, yet. My guess is it will just make things worse. Too many words look almost the same. There are a few kids who work better that way, but I am always hesitant because most kids can only memorize words up to a third grade level, then they just run out of memory. I do run across cases of children who do a light phonics and memorization path, but I have to wonder if they aren't autistic. Having that ability to make huge logical leaps once it does finally fall into place.

 

BTW my oldest is heavily auditory as well, but she learned to read at a normal pace and was generally ahead.

 

My oldest two spell by visualizing a word in their mind and spelling from what they see. Myself and my younger two lack that ability. Though ours is probably due to dyslexia. We all see pictures well in our minds, but not words. When I used to try to see a word in my mind it usually ended up cartoonish, with a 3D word in the middle of a flower field with flowers printed all over it. Seeing Stars has developed the ability in all three of us to see letters and then words in the mind. Once you get to that stage it works on changing words and then reading them from memory, so it is great for building visual memory.

 

Also have you had him evaluated by a developmental optometrist? Does he complain of headaches after trying to read, or try to read at odd angles? Does he seem to pause as he sounds out the word? Just wondering if he could be having focus or teaming problems that could be causing him to not see clearly. These sort of issues are not caught by a normal optometrist or ophthalmologist visit.

 

Another tool you might want to try is a notched 3x5 card. Just cut a rectangle out of the top left corner. This helps underline the line they are on, and block any words coming or letters coming when sounding out. It can help stop them from guessing. The best tool to stop guessing is nonsense words. Dyslexic students are renowned for guessing based on the shape of the first few letters of the word, and the best way to break them of it is to make them sound every word out using nonsense words. They just can't guess because it is not a real word.

 

Heather

[johnandtinagilbert]

I don't think he has much visual memory because he is such an auditory learner. He spells well because I speak the word, he sounds it out (out loud) and then he recites any rules to himself. When I then show him the word to read, he looks at it and guesses...the very word he just spelled and pronounced! If he comes across a word while reading that he doesn't know, he looks away or searches the picture for clues. How can he sound out a new word if he won't look at it. So I guess he doesn't pull knowledge from visualizing. He has an amazing capacity for memorization and comprehension IF you read to him, but he struggles to read himself. I have not done any sight words at all with him and have only taught him based on phonics. Maybe he just needs sight word practice. What are the best techniques for teaching a auditory learner to read?

 

I am very curious about Seeing Stars and am off to check it out! Thanks a ton!

Sounds like PR is a good choice for him. The songs will stick in his memory; he is "Spelling to Read" so perhaps the practice in markings will help with his reading as well.

Ditch the picture books. At least until he's sounding out better. I think the markings will help you with instruction also. You can lightly mark words in his reading (allowing for erasing) and then he may be more apt to sound out.

I'd skip the sight words for certain. I believe in the application process in PR. It makes the connection between spelling and reading.

In addition to the songs in PR, you may also try pounding and fingertapping with him. It helps my auditory learner a great bit.

[ElizabethB]

I wouldn't do sight words.

 

How old is he? It is normal for a young child who is just learning to read to be able to spell better than they can read, both my children were able to spell before they could read, and my son currently spells better than he can read. (Many children are probably actually better at spelling than reading at a young age, just most people do not do much spelling work at a young age!)

 

But, if he is a bit older or has been learning for over a year, there should not be that big of a split normally.

 

I would try using really big letters in all uppercase and see if that makes a difference.

 

Also, the notched card that Siloam mentioned.

 

Then, I'd have him spell a few words before sounding them out to see if that is difficult for him. (Looking at a normal sized word and having him spell, not read it.)

 

Then, give him letters orally and have him blend them "what do the letters "a" and "t" put together make?

 

These tests should help you figure out if there is a vision problem (big letters help) or a L to R tracking problem (notched card helps). The last 2 things should help you figure out if there is a vision/tracking/letter identification related problem or a blending problem.

 

There could also be a bit of a letter sound recall problem--for some students, it is easier to come up with a letter given a sound than vice versa, and they will need more drill on figuring out a sound given a letter. My son takes about 1/10 of a second to come up with the letter I when given either the short or long I sound, but takes a full second or sometimes 2 or 3 to come up with the short i sound in a word like sit. (2 or 3 seconds the first time in the day, 1 second by the end of the lesson. And, it's actually getting a bit shorter now, but until this week it was 1 to 3 seconds.)

[Crazyderiver]

Wow...great things to think about. If we go through the AAS phonogram cards he can can rattle off all the sounds from just seeing the cards, quickly. But I think there may be something to the sight issue? He rubs his eyes and blinks a lot, so I had his vision tested and he was 20/20. I had never heard of any other kind of testing. He does struggle with left to right, not on an individual page, but with the pages themselves. He always wants to start with the right page! Weird! I will try the card-thingy to see if that helps him track and focus with out the entire page to overwhelm him.

 

I am perplexed about what tapping or pounding would look like?? I have never heard of this. AAS does use the tiles to help with segmenting, but he flew through that so easily, I never really revisited it.

 

This "reading" is more complicated than I ever could have imagined. I am so thankful for you ladies and all your help!

[ElizabethB]

You can be 20/20 and have other vision problems, here is a thread that talks about it, I would ask on the special needs board if you think there is a problem and want more ideas:

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=234682&highlight=vision+covd

[sassenach]

This is our first year homeschooling. We have been using AAS 1-2, ETC 1-4, FLL 1, WWE 1 as our LA curriculum. If I wanted to switch to PR, could I start my son on level 2? He spells above his reading ability (which is below grade level) and I am attempting to close the gap. I would also LOVE the all-in-one. I am open to all advice, but was curious about where to start in Phonics Road. How quickly could we do PR1 if we needed to start at the beginning? Would it all be review of what we have already covered? Also, for what it is worth he is mostly an auditory learner. Just needing a little input. This forum has has been my life-line throughout our first year.

I started my kids on PR after using a combo of ETC, FLL, WWE and Spelling Workout. I realized that the it just wasn't working. I started both on PR1. My 2nd grader is flying through, often finishing 3-4 weeks of work in 1. His spelling has MASSIVELY improved. My 1st grader was progressing rapidly, but is now at regular pace. I had to slow her down earlier than I expected, but PR1 is so foundational, the last thing I want to do is rush through it. I really believe in this program. I don't think it's for everyone, but it may be for you.

[Guest]

I started my kids on PR after using a combo of ETC, FLL, WWE and Spelling Workout. I realized that the it just wasn't working. I started both on PR1. My 2nd grader is flying through, often finishing 3-4 weeks of work in 1. His spelling has MASSIVELY improved. My 1st grader was progressing rapidly, but is now at regular pace. I had to slow her down earlier than I expected, but PR1 is so foundational, the last thing I want to do is rush through it. I really believe in this program. I don't think it's for everyone, but it may be for you.

 

I am looking at starting PR next year also but not because what we were using didn't work. I have other reasons which really are not important here since they do not relate to what the OP is asking. I have been following this thread with interest as a good to know without having advice to offer. However, the OP is saying that her child spells very well from what I have noticed, the issue is with reading. Throwing another program to the mix is not always the solution, especially if there are other underlying problems that need to be addressed. It may just lead to more wasted time (and money) and even more frustration and disappointment for the parent and child.

[Lovedtodeath]

 

I am looking at starting PR next year also but not because what we were using didn't work. I have other reasons which really are not important here since they do not relate to what the OP is asking. I have been following this thread with interest as a good to know without having advice to offer. However, the OP is saying that her child spells very well from what I have noticed, the issue is with reading. Throwing another program to the mix is not always the solution, especially if there are other underlying problems that need to be addressed. It may just lead to more wasted time (and money) and even more frustration and disappointment for the parent and child.

Good point. I'd rep you if I could.

[Guest]

Good point. I'd rep you if I could.

 

Not an expert in any way. I just like reading what those in the know have to say. This is why I usually just lurk in threads like this.

[johnandtinagilbert]

I started my kids on PR after using a combo of ETC, FLL, WWE and Spelling Workout. I realized that the it just wasn't working. I started both on PR1. My 2nd grader is flying through, often finishing 3-4 weeks of work in 1. His spelling has MASSIVELY improved. My 1st grader was progressing rapidly, but is now at regular pace. I had to slow her down earlier than I expected, but PR1 is so foundational, the last thing I want to do is rush through it. I really believe in this program. I don't think it's for everyone, but it may be for you.

:party:

 

I am looking at starting PR next year also but not because what we were using didn't work. I have other reasons which really are not important here since they do not relate to what the OP is asking. I have been following this thread with interest as a good to know without having advice to offer. However, the OP is saying that her child spells very well from what I have noticed, the issue is with reading. Throwing another program to the mix is not always the solution, especially if there are other underlying problems that need to be addressed. It may just lead to more wasted time (and money) and even more frustration and disappointment for the parent and child.

This actually why I think PR may help. If he's spelling well, perhaps PR will break down the spelling in a way that will transfer from spelling to reading. I have been amazed as I watch my 5yo spell to read. We never did it this way and I find it's working far better than the other method we followed. Far better and no tears, no frustration.

 

That is the golden ticket of PR -- application. When you pull from a variety of programs that are similar, but not cohesive, a child may not make the connections from one to another. Language Arts is not clear, as spelling AND reading AND grammar AND writing are all different areas. Kids don't get that there is a connection unless we show it to them. When you use PR, the connections are clear. The application crosses over. It may make a difference for him.

[Momma H]

We are on PR 3 week 6 and are still loving it! Barbara really knows her stuff. It is a rich program.

[Guest]

 

This actually why I think PR may help. If he's spelling well, perhaps PR will break down the spelling in a way that will transfer from spelling to reading. I have been amazed as I watch my 5yo spell to read. We never did it this way and I find it's working far better than the other method we followed. Far better and no tears, no frustration.

 

That is the golden ticket of PR -- application. When you pull from a variety of programs that are similar, but not cohesive, a child may not make the connections from one to another. Language Arts is not clear, as spelling AND reading AND grammar AND writing are all different areas. Kids don't get that there is a connection unless we show it to them. When you use PR, the connections are clear. The application crosses over. It may make a difference for him.

 

Like I said Tina, I am not an expert in the area so I would not venture to give any kind of advice to the OP. I am sure PR is an excellent program and the reason why I am considering it (I am still looking at other angles and whether it would be overkill or trying to fix something that is not broken in our case). However, PR is not the pill for everything that ails you either. And those that are using individual programs are not going to mess up their kids. PHP for example publishes a separate reading program, grammar program and writing program and many people are happily using these programs and their kids are thriving while it is not working for others. Same goes for PR. I have seen, by checking old threads, many happy users of PR that ended up giving it up for their own personal reasons after a year or whatever. A $200 investment on something that may or may not help when time could be wasted in the mean time from focusing on the whys is not something I would do, but that's just me :).

Edited February 17, 2011 by Guest

[johnandtinagilbert]

Like I said Tina, I am not an expert in the area so I would not venture to give any kind of advice to the OP. I am sure PR is an excellent program and the reason why I am considering it (I am still looking at other angles and whether it would be overkill or trying to fix something that is not broken in our case). However, PR is not the pill for everything that ails you either. And those that are using individual programs are not going to mess up their kids. PHP for example publishes a separate reading program, grammar program and writing program and many people are happily using these programs and their kids are thriving while it is not working for others. Same goes for PR. I have seen, by checking old threads, many happy users of PR that ended up giving it up for their own personal reasons after a year or whatever. A $200 investment on something that may or may not help when time could be wasted in the mean time from focusing on the whys is not something I would do, but that's just me :).

Nope it's not and certainly, people won't mess up their dc by using other materials. PHP offers a fine line up, with some overlap and a lot of scripting. For some, these materials are the answer. In this OPs case, since PR focuses on reading from a spelling stand point (her dc is strong in spelling), it may be the connector she needs. Since she's using AAS, PR is similar in approach and will make a nice transition for her as a teacher and will also remove any redundancy or overlap from approaching LA from various sources, even various authors.

PR is costly at $200, but I spent more than that on spelling programs from grades 3-7, trying to correct the errors of my ways before PR.

[sassenach]

.

Edited February 17, 2011 by Shannon831
Changed my mind.

[Guest]

Shannon, I was not being defensive in any way. I was just replying to Tina's post which was a reply to mine. All I was trying to say is that there may be other things that someone needs to look at in situations like this. That's all! I was not trying to push any kind of curriculum on anyone. PHP was just an example since we are on the WTM forums. I could have used any other. I had no intention of causing any conflict though so I will walk away.

[sassenach]

Shannon, I was not being defensive in any way. I was just replying to Tina's post which was a reply to mine. All I was trying to say is that there may be other things that someone needs to look at in situations like this. That's all! I was not trying to push any kind of curriculum on anyone. PHP was just an example since we are on the WTM forums. I could have used any other. I had no intention of causing any conflict though so I will walk away.

 

I deleted my post almost immediately after hitting submit. This kind of back and forth is pointless. I'm sorry for engaging.

[siloam]

Wow...great things to think about. If we go through the AAS phonogram cards he can can rattle off all the sounds from just seeing the cards, quickly. But I think there may be something to the sight issue? He rubs his eyes and blinks a lot, so I had his vision tested and he was 20/20. I had never heard of any other kind of testing. He does struggle with left to right, not on an individual page, but with the pages themselves. He always wants to start with the right page! Weird! I will try the card-thingy to see if that helps him track and focus with out the entire page to overwhelm him.

 

The blinking and rubbing of eyes is not the best of signs. It could be that it is taking so much effort that he is just showing signs of mental exhaustion, or it could be that there is some sort of vision issue. Eye teaming, tracking, and focus could all be off even through his vision is fine. Does he have issues with headaches, especially right after doing his reading?

 

There are also processing problems. Visual dyslexia can cause the letters to look like they are moving on the page. The theory is that some people see some colors before they see others (instead of seeing them all at once like normal people), which distorts what they see. The eyes work perfectly but the brain is not. In my case I have horrible problems with white and yellow. If you look at these sample distortions, I often have a mild case of the Halo effect. My ideal color is a purple (now you know why the purple font, but I also do well with blue, pink and red.

 

I know of a gal who took her ds to VT and found out that it was taking several seconds for the child to focus on each letter, so he could pass the eye exam with 20/20 vision, but it took so long for him to focus on each letter in a word that he couldn't recognize whole words at all. He had lots of problems with migraines as well. After VT he could focus properly, but as it turned out he was also dyslexic, so he continued to struggle to learn to read and to spell. He did get there in the end.

 

The hard part is these can be hard to nail down, and even harder to find a VT professional who knows their stuff and can tell ahead of time what is the root cause. I took my 2nd dd into VT and after 5 months saw no improvement. I suspect she has a processing problem like I do, not a vision problem. Finding a VT that can tell the difference is difficult.

 

I am perplexed about what tapping or pounding would look like?? I have never heard of this. AAS does use the tiles to help with segmenting, but he flew through that so easily, I never really revisited it.

In Barton when you sound out a word you tap under each letter and say the sound, then you do a U motion, either in the air or I like to do it under the word from the first letter to the last. At this point you do a slow blend. Then you finish by "swiping" under the word while doing a fast blend. In Barton these steps are not negotiable. It is designed for dyslexic students and they guess so much instead of sounding out that the programs forces you to sound out every single word when first being taught it (later for reading time you don't have to). Thus with a word like top you would tap /t/, /o/, /p/. Then you would do the U starting with /t/, then going to /o/ at the bottom of the u, then go to p at the top of the other side. Then you do the fast blend under the word: top. In most o/g programs the child is directly taught every word they read, so first they would have this instruction time, then they would spell it, then they would read it. Spalding programs don't normally use controlled word readers like this, but I think PR might.

 

AAS is based on o/g methods but there are a couple ways in which is doesn't line up with traditional o/g. It doesn't use units and it doesn't yet have complete reading instruction. With your child that doesn't bother me because he is spelling better than he is reading. In addition you can have him reading the cards (I have mine read 20 a day), and reading the phrases/sentences given for dictation.

 

PR is also based on o/g methods but also has a couple ways in which it doesn't line up with the traditional program. The main thing is the sequence. Traditional o/g covers one topic at a time to mastery. But traditional o/g was created for dyslexic students. When Dr. Orton worked with Spalding they were purposely looking to create a program for regular students that would get them reading more quickly.

 

BTW my 8yo, 2nd grade ds is not reading fluently yet. He can read at grade level but he has recall problems. His biggest issues, like a traditional dyslexic, is in hearing the sounds for spelling. I don't have him doing any composition, dictation (other than for reading instruction), grammar or such for now. There is plenty of time to play catch up on that later. I know because both my middle dd's were delayed as well, and both are doing fine now. Thus feel free to JUST do reading for now, if that is what it takes.

 

If it really helps YOU to have it all integrated, and you don't think he is dyslexic, or particularly sequential in his learning style, then go for it! I love TOG because of the integration, so I do get how those little touch and feel things can make all the difference for you as the teacher. There are also programs you can use later which integrate topics: both Writing Tales and Classical Writing also do. You do have the option of focusing on reading now and doing the integrated later.

 

Heather

[Lovedtodeath]

My thoughts in pink.

The blinking and rubbing of eyes is not the best of signs. It could be that it is taking so much effort that he is just showing signs of mental exhaustion, or it could be that there is some sort of vision issue. Eye teaming, tracking, and focus could all be off even through his vision is fine. Does he have issues with headaches, especially right after doing his reading? I really think that this child needs to be assessed for learning difficulties. DD has several issues (which mainly affect math and have to do with vision therapy) and before working on them we switched programs several times (math)... and now I am thinking I didn't need to switch programs. I needed the therapy and accommodations for her learning difficulty.

 

In Barton when you sound out a word you tap under each letter and say the sound, then you do a U motion, either in the air or I like to do it under the word from the first letter to the last. At this point you do a slow blend. Then you finish by "swiping" under the word while doing a fast blend. In Barton these steps are not negotiable. It is designed for dyslexic students and they guess so much instead of sounding out that the programs forces you to sound out every single word when first being taught it (later for reading time you don't have to). Thus with a word like top you would tap /t/, /o/, /p/. Then you would do the U starting with /t/, then going to /o/ at the bottom of the u, then go to p at the top of the other side. Then you do the fast blend under the word: top. In most o/g programs the child is directly taught every word they read, so first they would have this instruction time, then they would spell it, then they would read it. Spalding programs don't normally use controlled word readers like this, but I think PR might. That would have been so helpful when we were going through our problems with phonics.

 

AAS is based on o/g methods but there are a couple ways in which is doesn't line up with traditional o/g. It doesn't use units and it doesn't yet have complete reading instruction. With your child that doesn't bother me because he is spelling better than he is reading. In addition you can have him reading the cards (I have mine read 20 a day), and reading the phrases/sentences given for dictation.

 

PR is also based on o/g methods but also has a couple ways in which it doesn't line up with the traditional program. The main thing is the sequence. Traditional o/g covers one topic at a time to mastery. But traditional o/g was created for dyslexic students. When Dr. Orton worked with Spalding they were purposely looking to create a program for regular students that would get them reading more quickly.

 

BTW my 8yo, 2nd grade ds is not reading fluently yet. He can read at grade level but he has recall problems. His biggest issues, like a traditional dyslexic, is in hearing the sounds for spelling. I don't have him doing any composition, dictation (other than for reading instruction), grammar or such for now. There is plenty of time to play catch up on that later. I know because both my middle dd's were delayed as well, and both are doing fine now. Thus feel free to JUST do reading for now, if that is what it takes.

 

If it really helps YOU to have it all integrated, and you don't think he is dyslexic, or particularly sequential in his learning style, then go for it! I love TOG because of the integration, so I do get how those little touch and feel things can make all the difference for you as the teacher. There are also programs you can use later which integrate topics: both Writing Tales and Classical Writing also do. You do have the option of focusing on reading now and doing the integrated later.

 

Heather

Phonics Road 1 has readers based on the words that have been spelled. :thumbup1: The child reads one per week and illustrates it to show comprehension.

[Lovedtodeath]

Like I said Tina, I am not an expert in the area so I would not venture to give any kind of advice to the OP. I am sure PR is an excellent program and the reason why I am considering it (I am still looking at other angles and whether it would be overkill or trying to fix something that is not broken in our case). However, PR is not the pill for everything that ails you either. And those that are using individual programs are not going to mess up their kids. PHP for example publishes a separate reading program, grammar program and writing program and many people are happily using these programs and their kids are thriving while it is not working for others. Same goes for PR. I have seen, by checking old threads, many happy users of PR that ended up giving it up for their own personal reasons after a year or whatever. A $200 investment on something that may or may not help when time could be wasted in the mean time from focusing on the whys is not something I would do, but that's just me :).

I really don't feel that PR would be a waste at all. It seems like this child could really use the bit of review from the beginning of the program, with the reading integrated, and of course PR 1 covers more than what this child has been through in AAS.

 

I totally agree that I would look for the reason for the problem and not waste any time before doing so. I wouldn't just switch programs, and thus waste time that could be used finding out the problem and working on it. I would do both.

[Guest]

There are also programs you can use later which integrate topics: both Writing Tales and Classical Writing also do.

 

Heather

 

Thank you for this Heather. I hadn't even considered that.

 

(ETA: My comment above has to do with personal interest in CW and nothing to do with previous discussions in this thread)

Edited February 18, 2011 by Guest