poetic license Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 I'm not sure if my son (4) is "gifted" though I suspect as much, but he sure is spirited (according to the definition by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka). I don't have a question per se for you all--I guess I'm looking more for support and thoughts about your experiences with kids like this. DS is incredibly thirsty for learning, he's constantly wanting me to read nonfiction science books, he listens to tons of audiobooks, and begs to do math. And yet at the same time, this intensity, the outbursts, tantrums, are these common with gifted kids (or accelerated, whatever is the right word...) Any ideas of things to do with kids like this at this age? Kurcinka's book is great, anything else I could read that will target more of the learning end of the issue? Or even reading that will help me to understand this spirited/gifted style better? Thanks, all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleIzumi Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 I think this is dd3. DEFINITELY spirited :lol:. She was in therapy for sensory issues for a year and a half, and that really helped her a lot. She also has a necklace of "calming" energy stones, which I thought was absolute bunk but I was desperate :tongue_smilie: and the difference was phenomenal. She went from crazy to just spirited. But I have NO idea how she learns generally. She learns when she wants to, period. She decided to learn her letters all at once from Signing Time, and she has amazing fine motor skills, but then she also demands (literally) worksheets and workbooks, and cannot use manipulatives for math because she gets OCD about them (like we used MUS but she would take an entire minute getting two blocks lined up in the little boxes, and then one would bump the other & she had to start all over). So I have :grouphug: but I'm very :lurk5: about ideas! Right now she likes MEP Reception, with how things change constantly & there are a lot of sections that feel like games. We do ASL with Signing Time for the multi-sensory approach. We use a lot of learning DVDs actually, as I know that is at least one of her strengths, learning visually. Bill Bye, Magic School Bus, Schoolhouse Rock. She's watching an energy DVD right now (her request). She also loves tracing & drawing letters & numbers, and dot-to-dots. I use lots of read-alouds as well. We'll be starting MFW K soon. I printed out the samples & had her work on them to make sure it would fit. I want to try HWOT K. She also tags along on her sister's BFSU, and she uses ETC primers plus dry-erase books & sheets. I have AAS but I can never get around to it.... I try to make sure she does lots of physical things too, goes outside & plays or swings on our indoor rings or jumps, etc. There is a LOT of imagination play with her sister, too. Oh, she also loves Starfall dearly and does lots of arts/crafts. I'm just trying various things & seeing what works, and so far that's the big mishmash of what works & makes her happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Wife Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 Overexcitabilities are very common among gifted kids (see here for a good layman's explanation of Dabrowski's work). However, I could not disagree more with Mary Sheedy Kurcinka's approach. "Spirited" children need firm discipline IMHO not parental indulging of their bad behavior. While I don't agree with Dr. James Dobson's views on corporal punishment, I strongly recommend you read The New Strong-Willed Child. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 I could not disagree more with Mary Sheedy Kurcinka's approach. "Spirited" children need firm discipline IMHO not parental indulging of their bad behavior. :iagree: What we now call "spirited" used to be known as a brat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracy Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 I recommend Creating Home Schooling by Lisa Rivero. It is written especially for families with gifted children and provides many resources, from curricula to support groups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaMa2005 Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 :iagree: What we now call "spirited" used to be known as a brat. So, so true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poetic license Posted February 13, 2011 Author Share Posted February 13, 2011 Overexcitabilities are very common among gifted kids (see here for a good layman's explanation of Dabrowski's work). However, I could not disagree more with Mary Sheedy Kurcinka's approach. "Spirited" children need firm discipline IMHO not parental indulging of their bad behavior. While I don't agree with Dr. James Dobson's views on corporal punishment, I strongly recommend you read The New Strong-Willed Child. hmm, well although I won't say I do agree with everything Kurcinka says, in my book understanding what makes them tick goes a long way to heading off the spirited behavior. "Firm discipline" is a phrase that certainly can mean a lot of different things, but what I have found with students in the classroom and my own kids/relatives' kids is that trying to be a hard-as$ mom/teacher only makes them dig their heels in harder. Engaging in a battle of wills 24/7 is typically counterproductive, IMO, especially seeing as my DS is only 4. At this age, distraction still goes a long way over the "just do it NOW" orders. The few glimpses of Dobson that I saw made me want to throw up in my mouth a little bit, but I'll give this title a try if it's in the library. So.... leaving off the parenting bit and coming to the learning and behavior side, let's leave off the word "spirited" since that obviously equals "brat" to many people (not all bratty behavior is spirited per the definition I linked to earlier, so not sure if my point even went across) :001_huh: For those who do get what I'm saying ;) Can anyone tell me about teaching kids who are hypersensitive, get easily excited, have a great deal of emotional perceptiveness and are highly intelligent? How does homeschooling work when the emotional component of mom-as-teacher impacts the learning environment? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleIzumi Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 (edited) :iagree: What we now call "spirited" used to be known as a brat. I don't entirely agree. I do agree that the approach in that book is very much "well, that's just how the kid is, so deal with it," and I do believe spirited kids can learn to reign a lot of their behaviors in--but even while she is VERY well behaved (not a brat at all), dd is still extremely spirited. She just seems to feel *everything* more. If she is upset or scared, she will instantly start to sob & hyperventilate (ever seen a 3-year-old actually hyperventilate? It's kinda scary). If she is happy, she is the most explodingly joyous creature you can imagine. If she is in the mood to do workbooks or worksheets, she will do them for hours straight without stopping. But generally she is quite well-behaved now. She sits still in her classes at church & play preschool, listens very well, answers questions properly (even raises her hand), loves to help, does not throw fits for things she wants, is extremely sweet & loving, etc. She's not a brat at all. Emotions just seem to be felt by her 110% more than other people. Edited February 13, 2011 by LittleIzumi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poetic license Posted February 13, 2011 Author Share Posted February 13, 2011 I think this is dd3. DEFINITELY spirited :lol:. She was in therapy for sensory issues for a year and a half, and that really helped her a lot. She also has a necklace of "calming" energy stones, which I thought was absolute bunk but I was desperate :tongue_smilie: and the difference was phenomenal. She went from crazy to just spirited. How old is she? Love the energy stones bit, that's so funny--but maybe it serves as a visual reminder for her that she associates with calmness? I really think that the hypersensitivity bit to physical stimuli is a big key to what makes these kids tick. I know that my ds must absolutely get at least 12 hours of sleep to function properly. I have to keep DS away from overly visual stuff for too long as I find that it just provokes tantrums--again, likely the hypersensitivity bit--to the point that it's like an addiction, when the screen time is done, then he's just craving more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poetic license Posted February 13, 2011 Author Share Posted February 13, 2011 She's not a brat at all. Emotions just seem to be felt by her 110% more than other people. I think we're cross posting at the same time. :) And :iagree: Just to chime in again that this is I think the key bit--that things are felt more intensely by these kids, and I think it's one of those things that you understand after you experience it intimately. Plus, calling a kid a brat is just insanely counterproductive to understanding and then correcting their behavior. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleIzumi Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 (edited) How old is she? Love the energy stones bit, that's so funny--but maybe it serves as a visual reminder for her that she associates with calmness? I really think that the hypersensitivity bit to physical stimuli is a big key to what makes these kids tick. I know that my ds must absolutely get at least 12 hours of sleep to function properly. I have to keep DS away from overly visual stuff for too long as I find that it just provokes tantrums--again, likely the hypersensitivity bit--to the point that it's like an addiction, when the screen time is done, then he's just craving more. She's 3 & I do also need to regulate the screen time or she gets grumpy. We don't have TV so she only sees the DVDs when I choose to put them on so that helps. Dd was actually both hyper- & hypo-sensitive, depending on the area, but it's MUCH better now. (It was really weird--she'd jump up & crash bum-first into the hard floor over & over to get some sensation but then she'd strip naked if she got a drop of water on her sleeve. Even in a store. :glare: And she barely slept, ever, or communicated at all. She had some wires seriously crossed, lol. Thank heavens for therapy & the necklace, for whatever reason it worked....) Edited February 13, 2011 by LittleIzumi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 Plus, calling a kid a brat is just insanely counterproductive to understanding and then correcting their behavior. Frankly, I completely disagree. It is critically important to realize that whatever the cause of the behavior, it has *no* redeeming value in our society and is simply unacceptable under any circumstances. Calling it "spirited" puts a positive spin on a behavior that should be extinguished as soon as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Wife Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 I don't entirely agree. I do agree that the approach in that book is very much "well, that's just how the kid is, so deal with it," and I do believe spirited kids can learn to reign a lot of their behaviors in--but even while she is VERY well behaved (not a brat at all), dd is still extremely spirited. :iagree: My kids definitely have some of Dabrowski's OE's (especially psychomotor, imaginational, and intellectual). That's their temperament and it's not something I want to change, but I do feel it's important to channel it in appropriate ways. Kids can be "spirited" without becoming brats if parents take a firm hand in discipline (a la Dobson) rather than indulging their bad behavior (a la Kurcinka). In terms of homeschooling, I try to look for hands-on programs in the primary grades because those work better for my high-energy kids. MEP and Right Start for math, All About Spelling for phonics/spelling, Evan-Moor Take it to Your Seat ____ Centers for phonics & math, History Pockets and the SOTW Activity Guide for history, and the Young Scientists' Club kits for science have all been hits at our house. My DS is very into superheroes at the moment so one thing that has worked well is to turn whatever lesson he needs to do into a mission for his alter ego, "Super Count". Super Count has not only super math skills but also super spelling, super writing, etc. skills :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 Kids can be "spirited" without becoming brats if parents take a firm hand in discipline (a la Dobson) rather than indulging their bad behavior (a la Kurcinka). It is possible to keep children, even "spirited" children, from becoming brats using techniques other than Dobson's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Embassy Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 I think as a parent I need to distinguish between the intense feelings and the actions of the child. The intense feelings are part of who my child is. The actions may need to be changed. For instance, I have no problem with my child being intensely angry, but he is not to hit or sass or slam his door. I aim to work with him to find more appropriate avenues for his intense feelings. As for sensory issues like seams on socks or loud noises I take my child's perspective into account and try to find ways to help them be in a loud environment without breaking down in tears. We have all 5 overexcitabilities present in our house, but with varying degrees in different children. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SunshineMom Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 A "child's character will be totally perverted if he be subjected to blows or verbal abuse." I have found that children can be easily corrected if they have misbehaved. Those children with LD, special needs, sensory issues, etc. need even more patience from their parents. I believe children are naturally good and "bad behavior" or misbehavior is just an opportunity for parents to help teach the child and correct the child back to their natural state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mktkcb Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 Not sure how you got indulging bad behavior from the book. When dd (now almost 20) was 2, that book was a godsend.....it really helped me see my child through different eyes. I just had a very hyperactive, intense, sensitive kid who was *not* what I planned on LOL. Yes we spanked when necessary....in retrospect, I should not have spanked her as much as I did, probably. This book was most helpful in teaching me to be thoughtful and proactive in my parenting of her. There were definite things that tipped her over the edge, and she had many sensory issues that were challenging. I learned better how to anticipate trouble spots/situations, and plan ahead in order to head off potential behavioral disasters. I learned to see some of her trouble spots as areas of real potential if handled correctly. I never got the message from the book that bratty behavior was acceptable or excusable, but it did help me to discipline more thoughtfully. Btw, she is now, as I said, almost 20, and just as intense, but highly motivated, a straight A student in college, and headed most likely for engineering. I recommend this book very highly. It's not the Bible, but it has good ideas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenmama2 Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 Gosh, this thread has me a little :confused: at the turn it took. and cannot use manipulatives for math because she gets OCD about them (like we used MUS but she would take an entire minute getting two blocks lined up in the little boxes, and then one would bump the other & she had to start all over). Oh this is my DD :grouphug: In theory Miquon should work wonderfully for her, in practice she gets stuck on the first thing she does with the rods because she can't make it exactly (to the 100th of a milimetre) right. Sigh. So we stick to Singapore for most of our worksheet stuff. For those who do get what I'm saying ;) Can anyone tell me about teaching kids who are hypersensitive, get easily excited, have a great deal of emotional perceptiveness and are highly intelligent? How does homeschooling work when the emotional component of mom-as-teacher impacts the learning environment? I'm only at the start of this journey with DD 4.5 but I'm learning I really have to prioritise our relationship over all else. I hope some more experienced homeschoolers have suggestions :bigear: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeidiD Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 I think as a parent I need to distinguish between the intense feelings and the actions of the child. The intense feelings are part of who my child is. The actions may need to be changed. For instance, I have no problem with my child being intensely angry, but he is not to hit or sass or slam his door. I aim to work with him to find more appropriate avenues for his intense feelings. So true. The alternative can be very unattractive. My parents, for example, are adult versions of emotionally intense "brats" who never learned to moderate their behavior, resulting in an extremely stressful and combative home life.:tongue_smilie: I don't want that for my children if at all possible! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgr Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 I'm just barely starting down the homeschooling road, so I'm not an expert in this area by any stretch of the imagination - our 5 1/2 yr. old is in K half day and will be at home starting this fall. I have been working with her "part-time" all year, though, and I have noticed some trends. I'm sure every child is different, just by being an individual person. Things that I've noticed that make things go more smoothly - - she is a sensitive child that needs a certain number of hours of sleep. If shes sleeps even 30 min less, she's much less able to control her behavior (this part she gets from me ;) ) - I agree with the person who said that a lot of it has been helping her find acceptable ways to deal with/express intense emotions, rather than addressing whether she *should* be feeling those emotions (or with that intensity) - I have to stay calm myself (emphasis on TRY) if I expect her to try to be calm - I have been trying to listen to her cues, and take a break or switch to something else when her circuits are close to being overloaded (easier to do, obviously, with a kindergartener than it will be with an older child - I don't really have to get through any material) - it's helped me to remind myself that, even though she's a very bright kid, and very intelligent, she's still only 5 (i.e. I need to make sure I'm expecting developmentally appropriate behavior/control) - I talk to her about expectations when she's calm, and remind/reinforce when she's not - consistency (ha! Easier said than done...) I'm afraid I'm not much help as far as the learning aspect goes - I've just tried to apply what has worked in other spheres of life to her learning as well. I will also say that a year has made a lot of difference. She was an angel during the "terrible twos", then turned into a "threenager", was very intense at 3 1/2 - 4, and now, at 5 1/2 has really grown emotionally as far as learning to act more appropriately. Regardless - you're not alone, hang in there! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poetic license Posted February 14, 2011 Author Share Posted February 14, 2011 Frankly, I completely disagree. It is critically important to realize that whatever the cause of the behavior, it has *no* redeeming value in our society and is simply unacceptable under any circumstances. Calling it "spirited" puts a positive spin on a behavior that should be extinguished as soon as possible. That's why I said "to understanding and then correcting their behavior." The term "spirited" is merely an attempt to avoid using pejorative terms like "brat" with kids. Just like in polite company I wouldn't call a spouse that was "misbehaving" (do we even use that word with adults?) an a-hole or something. Just because a child is called "spirited" doesn't mean that the behavior should not be curbed. Not sure where in that sentence I wrote you got that idea. :001_huh: I think there's this general trend of setting up a false dichotomy between permissive and controlling parenting, such that if someone says that there is a need to understand the cause of a child's behavior, the fire alarms go off and it comes off as "permissive parenting." Understand to correct, not understand to let slide. It is possible to keep children, even "spirited" children, from becoming brats using techniques other than Dobson's. I'd appreciate recs because I strongly dislike what little I saw of Dobson (that was years ago so I should probably try to give him a fair shake now and check it out). I think as a parent I need to distinguish between the intense feelings and the actions of the child. The intense feelings are part of who my child is. The actions may need to be changed. That's exactly the point. In fact I ended up going back to the book (spirited child one) and saw that while it is sometimes permissive, there are a lot of tips about heading off and controlling the offending behavior. Like a PP said, "it's not the bible." Gosh, this thread has me a little :confused: at the turn it took. I'm only at the start of this journey with DD 4.5 but I'm learning I really have to prioritise our relationship over all else. I hope some more experienced homeschoolers have suggestions :bigear: Yeah I'm actually hoping to get some homeschooling suggestions too (although the parenting discussion is interesting too ;)) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeidiD Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 " Understand to correct, not understand to let slide. When my 8 yo throws the dustpan against the wall because I politely ask him to sweep up a few more crumbs, or my 5 yo yells and screams for half an hour because she doesn't like the menu, I honestly don't CARE why they feel the need to behave like that. No amount of understanding on anyone's part will cause them to behave better, only consequences. I do understand that they're "spirited", but I can also see that they're stubborn and manipulative. Not easy to deal with, that's for sure. :) We're having some success with a banking system (they want to earn money for Legos). They get paid once a week if they do their jobs and their school work well, and without complaining. The most common transgressions (tantrums, avoiding school work) have a predetermined monetary penalty attached. They get $2 per week, but each bratty incident costs them 50 cents, so the profits disappear rapidly unless they control themselves. One of my older kids is the paymaster (he's in college so they can't nag him all day about reconsidering the penalty). I get to play the indifferent bureaucrat ("Sorry, rules are rules, my hands are tied...) so they can't nag me either. :) The advantage to this system is that it shifts the responsibility and the outcome of their behavior (both good and bad) onto them (like in the real world). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizaG Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Can anyone tell me about teaching kids who are hypersensitive, get easily excited, have a great deal of emotional perceptiveness and are highly intelligent? How does homeschooling work when the emotional component of mom-as-teacher impacts the learning environment? Not sure if this is exactly what you're asking about, but on the Davidson board, several parents have posted recently about their children refusing to do schoolwork and being generally rude and disrespectful. I've heard that these sorts of attitude problems are common in the general homeschool population starting at around age 10 or 11, but they seem to start a lot younger with some gifted children. Like 7 or 8. Or maybe birth. :tongue_smilie: Some of these parents are very discouraged, and are thinking about putting their children in school even if they know the accommodations won't be adequate. One parent said that they had serious difficulties with traditional homeschooling, but had much more success with an online charter school. Even though the charter school's curriculum wasn't entirely to the family's liking, the structure and outside accountability made a huge difference in their child's behavior. We've never gone that route, but this reminded me that DD7 was much more compliant last fall when we were using a ready-made curriculum with daily lesson plans. The materials didn't seem that great a fit, but we didn't have a lot of problems until I started changing things around. The more "improvements" I made, the worse things got. In hindsight, I was taking out most of the structure, predictability, clear expectations, objective standards, and outside accountability, all of which my DD seems to need. This set the stage for her to get overstimulated and off-kilter, and also to blame me for anything she didn't like. Before, it was "me and her together vs. the curriculum." Now, it's "me vs. her." We've decided to go back to ready-made curriculum with lesson plans, using a different provider and bumping everything up another level. This doesn't match our educational ideal, but as a PP said, we have to prioritize our relationship. If there were a school that offered a program of fairly rigorous old-fashioned academics in the morning, with grade skips as needed and free time in the afternoon, I'd be happy with that and wouldn't expect more of them. It seems reasonable to extend the same consideration to myself, especially as I have three similarly intense younger students coming down the pike. :auto::auto::auto: We're still going to do the fun, open-ended, creative stuff in the afternoon, but it will be optional. I hope this works out. I enjoy homeschooling, but it seems that the dynamics here are such that we have to draw a line between "school" and "family." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleIzumi Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Not sure if this is exactly what you're asking about, but on the Davidson board, several parents have posted recently about their children refusing to do schoolwork and being generally rude and disrespectful. I've heard that these sorts of attitude problems are common in the general homeschool population starting at around age 10 or 11, but they seem to start a lot younger with some gifted children. Like 7 or 8. Or maybe birth. :tongue_smilie: Some of these parents are very discouraged, and are thinking about putting their children in school even if they know the accommodations won't be adequate. One parent said that they had serious difficulties with traditional homeschooling, but had much more success with an online charter school. Even though the charter school's curriculum wasn't entirely to the family's liking, the structure and outside accountability made a huge difference in their child's behavior. We've never gone that route, but this reminded me that DD7 was much more compliant last fall when we were using a ready-made curriculum with daily lesson plans. The materials didn't seem that great a fit, but we didn't have a lot of problems until I started changing things around. The more "improvements" I made, the worse things got. In hindsight, I was taking out most of the structure, predictability, clear expectations, objective standards, and outside accountability, all of which my DD seems to need. This set the stage for her to get overstimulated and off-kilter, and also to blame me for anything she didn't like. Before, it was "me and her together vs. the curriculum." Now, it's "me vs. her." We've decided to go back to ready-made curriculum with lesson plans, using a different provider and bumping everything up another level. This doesn't match our educational ideal, but as a PP said, we have to prioritize our relationship. If there were a school that offered a program of fairly rigorous old-fashioned academics in the morning, with grade skips as needed and free time in the afternoon, I'd be happy with that and wouldn't expect more of them. It seems reasonable to extend the same consideration to myself, especially as I have three similarly intense younger students coming down the pike. :auto::auto::auto: We're still going to do the fun, open-ended, creative stuff in the afternoon, but it will be optional. I hope this works out. I enjoy homeschooling, but it seems that the dynamics here are such that we have to draw a line between "school" and "family." Her ds is 4 so probably not refusing to do schoolwork atm, but that is a good point about the structure. My spirited/intense girl really thrives on structure. I hate HATE structure but I'm working on it because she needs it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Embassy Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 My spirited/intense girl really thrives on structure. I hate HATE structure but I'm working on it because she needs it. I am the same way. I like going where the wind blows, but my boys need to see things all planned out. So I'm off to write out tomorrow's school day on the white board for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starr Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 My spirited, intense girl still needs structure although she can create some for herself at 16. She still gets overstimulated and I'm afraid she'll fry at college and her nightmares continue. As a little girl she spent a fare amount of time on the stairs until she could get herself together or she was sent to her room. This has paid off tremendously! We just don't have many issues now she is in her teens and she knows I mean what I say. She's also calmer at home. Yes, bright, attractive, accomplished, Garrison Keillor kids here - "all the children are above average" - lol but her basic personality is still there. She hasn't thrown herself to the ground with her dress over her head for many years. :D And none of the furniture is broken from being swung on but life isn't easy. Her feelings run deep. And the rest of the world doesn't believe it. All this said to encourage you to work through things when they are young. It's time consuming and frustrating but so worth it. And don't forget the outside playtime! Exercise, exercise, exercise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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